Waitangi Day brought out predictable grumping about the so called grievance industry at Kiwiblog, prompted by Finlayson on Treaty settlements.
It is common to see treaty settlements that redress past wrongs like illegal or unfair confiscations of land (much of which have been settled) confused with ongoing Treaty obligations.
It’s common to see demands that Treaty payments end immediately, despite the fact that it’s part way through the process and would be profoundly unfair to those tribes who have not yet settled.
One of the several reasons it will never end is quite simple. The payments made thus far are a small fraction of the improved value of the land confiscated or otherwise misappropriated by successive governments. This is because no government could afford to make full compensation. That fact provides a good reason for continued and continuing claims.
If Key was serious about settling the Ngapuhi claim he would simply give them six months to decide who was negotiating on their behalf, and if the appointment was not made by then, declare there would BE no settlement…but that wouldn’t work either…See the preceding para…
It should always be remembered that the Lange government – advised by Palmer – started this crap when they extended the Waitangi Tribunal’s jurisdiction back to 1840…
Garrett is one of the more reasoned. There is some other reasonable discussion.
For some years since Maori began to obtain by fraud taxpayers money thanks to Palmer and Lange I have come to the idea that in reality whatever the settlements it is not all bad for New Zealand unless the assets purchased are sold overseas, and they may well be.
It is because the money injected into the part Maori economy will be used up in time as it filters into the whole economy.
Many of their ventures will go belly up due to theft and or bad investments, which may well be the same thing.
What goes around comes around, but in different hands and again is spent.
But we must take recognise David Garrett’s comments in that when the part Maori lose their money and investments they will come back to the 86% of the population for more and more and more. Will any Government now state that “Full and Final Settlement” mean what it says – get stuffed.
1. These “real” grievances are nothing more than bullshit. Sure some bad things might have happened years ago but deal with it and move on.
2. Anybody who thinks that these settlements are going to be full and final is a moron. Our grandkids will still be dealing with bludgers using colonisation as the excuse for all that ails Maori.
“Some people say they want an end to historical settlements. Most people agree. I do. Maori want them resolved as well.”
I don’t think so. The Maori elites want the gravy train to continue until the end of time.
Where else would the Stone Agers get such easy taxpayer’s money?
Manolo is a frequent anti-Maori commenter, usually calling them Stone Agers. His views aren’t particularly modern.
Steve (North Shore):
Throughout History all land has been won by conquest – so get the fuck out of my wallet.
Note that these commenters are only a small proportion of Kiwiblog participants, and as per the post David Farrar is much more moderate and understanding of Treaty realities.
Until the Treaty is destroyed, Maori forget the past, and taxpayers’ benevolence ceases to fund election bribes, the better for all concerned. I, for one, am sickened by the word “Treaty”, and its connotations and interpretations, pandering to a select few fat cats that don’t give a stuff about the plight of their over privileged iwi.
imagine the mayhem if every “1st people” of every country performed like SOME (and it is only some) Maori .. it’s bad enough watching the shit fights in the Middle East and Africa over this sort of issue.
Harawira, Sykes, Mair, Smith and their ilk will never ever stop protesting and demanding compensation for something.
Scott the Christian has different views to the early Missionaries:
I agree it is hard to see the process ending. White liberal guilt is inexhaustible. While Maori are quite happy to enjoy the transfer payments from the already overburdened taxpayer. I do think some kind of conservative government that believes in our future together as a nation may be inclined to finish the settlements.
Unfortunately both Labour and National are dominated by progressives who don’t like western civilisation and accept the radical views of Maori activists.
Chris Finlayson is a traitor in my books.
He has no justification handing over the legitimate birth rights of all New Zealanders to a small group of Iwi elite via the corrupt Waitangi Tribunal on the basis of compensation. It is a disgrace. If there was a proper independent legal process to analyse these treaty scams based on fact none of them would pass muster.
One day this whole fraud will come back to haunt the National party.
That comment got eleven thumbs up and two down (so far). I challenged him on it: “deadrightkev – how many corrupt treaty claims do you have evidence for?” That got three up, four down.
deadrightkev: I would like to think you are right…but the youngsters coming behind us are now indoctinrated from about year 6 (standard 4) in “grievanceology”…how much we owe the dispossessed brown proletariat for what “we” have done to them…in 15 or 20 years, those kids will be in positions of power…already you and I and the sensible commenters here are minority voices in the wildnerness…think what it will be like in 20 years?
Kowtow responded to my (and another) challenge:
The Ngai Tahu one qualifies.
How many times does honkey have to pay for past “injustices” when in fact the wiley Maori entered into commercial deals with their eyes wide open and have taken advantage of white guilt ever since. The whole “process’ is a sick and very expensive joke on the taxpayer with active conivance from government.
The perpetual top up clause they got is also an appalling abuse of the taxpayer.
Just an assertion with no supporting evidence.
“The Ngai Tahu one qualifies.”
I agree Kowtow. Perhaps PG would like to read Twisting the Treaty, The Great Divide or When two Cultures Meet for plenty more examples.
Late in tonight and reading this makes my blood boil.
Finlayson would have to be one of the worst people the National Party have ever engaged for anything.He is obviously not interested in the truth (although I realise the Tribunal don’t get presented with the real facts) and has sold this country down the road.
Many of the settlements are based on mistruths and porkies.
No-one has mentioned the absolutely shocking division that is being created by having separate Race seats and representation on councils and so-called co-governance which needs to be stopped in its tracks by some brave politician.
National have actually created a timebomb for this country and when Key said on radio that the treaty was a partnership I thought what a big let down.
The treaty is NOT a bloody partnership.
The truth is Maori were not the first people of Aotearoa.
The truth according to a few. No evidence, but Ben Dover continued.
Rat DNA that pre dates Polynesian settlement
two distinct breed of “Native Dog”
Hmmmmm so who were they?
Kupe having red hair in polynesian records?
all sorts of references all through their oral records of the
Patupaiarehe, also referred to as Turehu, Ngati Hotu and Urukehu (red heads), were said to live in large guarded communities.
“Perhaps PG would like to read Twisting the Treaty, The Great Divide or When two Cultures Meet for plenty more examples.”
So, PG & Tom ask for examples of corrupt treaty claims and the best anyone can come up with is:
(a) A book labelled as being full of deliberate historical inaccuracies to try to divide the country across racial lines (not to mentioned being authored by a certified);
(b) A book written by a fully Christian conservative who promotes articles for the tin-foil hat brigade (bet ya he and Colin are good mates) and describes himself as a “professional controversialist”; or
(c) A book by an author who feeds off of people’s sky is falling self doubt suggesting that the country is going to apartheid if they don’t rush out and shout at someone. This review should be enough to give it away: The book needed editing, to tone down prose more than the message, lose silly sweeping assertions and to clean up many little infelicities and errors – I should think the author probably has a large case of small man’s disease by the sounds of it.
Right, good response fellas. I’m glad we located those corrupt treaty claims and reported them to Chris Finlayson pronto so he can take all that money back.
Newsflash! Did you know that not everything you read on Wikipedia is the truth? Similarly, did you know that anyone can publish a book? Sensational, isn’t it? I mean all my life I thought books were the source of all truth.
Time to stop picking up books that mearly reinforce your own world views. Try something different for a change.
Well, that’s certainly enough sarcasm for one night. I think I’ve lowered by humor reserves to the bottom of the barrel.
deadrightkev came back:
“deadrightkev – how many corrupt treaty claims do you have evidence for?”
I cringe every time I see Finlayson hand over millions of taxpayers hard earned money to an Iwi for grievance and I spit when I see him apologise on behalf of NZ.
I have spent a number of years researching the origins. Ngapuhi as one example were the core tribe that invited the Crown to NZ for protection twice. They signed the treaty ceding sovereignty forever at Waitangi and here they are effectively holding their hand out for 500 million? What is even more stupid is our dumb ass politicians will hand it over. More socialism from National.
Its time people removed their “we must settle any just and genuine claims of the past” tinted glasses and woke up. There simply are not any justified claims beyond the template grievance model manufactured by the WT industry. They are simply all lining up for a feed on the basis that “the other tribe got some so why shouldn’t I get some too”.
Kiwis don’t like what is going on and every poll related to Maori issues gets over 80% against. Is there a political party that will rise up against it? I wont hold my breath. Which party stands for upholding property rights?
Kev, So your evidence of corrupt treaty claims comes down to an interrpretation of The Treaty that you read about in a book then…
After theses and further challenges the claims backed off.
And as usual no one is likely to have changed their mind. That’s Kiwiblog and that’s blogging- actually the comments on this thread have been relatively mild, but similar views aren’t uncommon in the real world.
As long as we have a few Maori claiming they should get much more from the Crown (all of us) there will be some non-Maori claiming that Maori have been given far too much.