“Capitulated to the mongrel bastards”

In Ugly reactions at Kiwiblog I linked to contentious Charlie Hebdo cartoons but chose not to show the cartoons myself because I don’t like offensively provocative satire and I don’t fully understand the French context.

The right to choose what one publishes is at least as important as the right to free speech and freedom of the press.

But a comment at Kiwiblog sees things differently. IGM:

DPF: I must endorse Fletch, it is good to see you have intestinal fortitude, unlike Pete George, who has capitulated to the mongrel bastards.

I think that’s a mongrel bastard accusation IGM.  Your attitude and intolerance is as bad in it’s own way as that of the terrorists. All you lack is their physical violence.

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29 Comments

  1. Alan Wilkinson

     /  9th January 2015

    Farrar makes a good point that ensuring far wider publication of the offending material results from the crime is a disincentive to copycat terrorism.

    That should be done with due regard to hitting the right targets rather than innocent ones.

    Reply
  2. artcroft

     /  9th January 2015

    It’s not necessary to re-print the cartoons. That’s Charlie Hebdo’s style and it’s not for everybody. But despite all the talk of defiance by cartoonists and the media there hasn’t really been any. Drawing pictures of pens and writing Je suis Charlie doesn’t offend the murderers. Denouncing Islam and it’s beliefs does. Is Allah God? No. Is Mohammad his messager? No. Is there any truth in the Quran? No. Should these points be publicaly and explictly stated? Yes. That’s our right.

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  9th January 2015

      Yeah its interesting that Progressives will wail on Christianity all day long, “White Supremacist Racist Colonial Oppressors!”, but when it comes to Islam suddenly they are all “Diversity!, Multiculturalism!, I just LOVE muslims!”

      Reply
    • Artcroft, you don’t have a fucking clue.

      If you murder someone by shooting them at close range with an assault rifle, there are unavoidable physical consequences like recoil, tissue trauma, and blood loss. There is no indication of these consequences in the video of the two gunmen and the gendarme.

      Yes, Allah isn’t “God”. “God” is a translation of Elohim, which is the plural form of the semitic root word of “Allah”. Both Islam and Judiasm stress the singular nature of their deity. The trinitarian “God” isn’t supported well by the canonical texts of Christianity.

      Is there truth in the Quran? Try the first phrase of the first verse:

      In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

      It is truth that the Quran is in the name of Allah. You don’t have the right to to tell lies.

      Reply
  3. Pierre

     /  9th January 2015

    I am not surprised by the level of hatred and intolerance shown in the blog comments. As I see it there is a fundamental difference between the left and right in this area. There seems to be consensus (at least no perceptible level of dissent) that one main support of freedom of speech is the right to comment on ideas or faiths (etc) “without fear of persecution”

    It is the last 4 words where there is a difference. The right (Whale Oil and KiwiBlog) interpret this narrowly as being solely in terms of the speaker. More extreme views extend the freedom to the right to offend (including hate speech). The left however (Standard, Daily Blog) include the recipient of the speech in the persecution requirement. More extreme views state that a single commentator can persecute (as defined by the recipient of the speech).

    I’m leaning more towards the left on this (but not the extreme view). The reason can perhaps be illustrated by an example.

    I don’t like Johnny’s ideas at school. Freedom of speech means I can criticise him and his views (some would allow calling him a “mental retard” etc). That should be allowable as a healthy exchange of views. BUT, what if the vast majority make comments about him – is that now becoming persecution. And then the teachers support the concerted criticism (including articles and ridicule in the school magazine). That then becomes institutionalised persecution. So he snaps and brings his parents gun to school and mows down his classmates. Are we totally innocent in this process? Should we then seek out other pupils with similar views and attack them verbally to show “we’re not afraid” (as his being suggested towards Muslims)? Moving from school to the downtrodden in society and I can’t see it ending well.

    I fear that commonsense has been lost and we are becoming a more polarised society with less and less ability to consider alternative views. There are no easy answers but giving up on finding a solution is surely the worst option.

    (For those suggesting “nuke the Middle East” – does this include the minority christians living there. Also, if muslims live in Israel does that mean nuking Israel too. Wishing a problem away does not make it happen.)

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  9th January 2015

      “I fear that commonsense has been lost and we are becoming a more polarised society with less and less ability to consider alternative views.”

      When you flood your secualr Democratic country with 3rd Worlders who bring their religious fundamentalism with them what the hell else would you expect to happen?

      Remember this is exactly what Cultural Marxism creates, white Christian heterosexual males are the “Oppressor Class” and responsible for all the evil in the world re ableism, slut shaming, Capitalism, fat shaming, Islamophobia, white supremism, Transphobia ad nauseam. Therefore flooding Western Civilisation with 3rd Worlders is part of “smashing White Supremacist Capitalist Patriarchy!”.

      “For those suggesting “nuke the Middle East” – does this include the minority christians living there.”

      Actually the Christians there are getting rapidly wiped out. Not that you will get any coverage in MSM, let alone from Progressives because that would be “Islamophobic” and completely wrecks their “Diverisity! Multiculturalism! Islam is a peaceful religion!” narrative. In fact obviously you are completely clueless about the plight of Christians in Iraq etc exactly because you buy into that Progressive propaganda.

      Your “Johnny” story is detached from reality. Lets reattach it: Johnny hates all his class mates because they are infidels worthy of death if they don’t convert to his religion/culture. He intimidates some of his class mates when he thinks the teacher is not looking, zeroing in on the white girls especially because he believes Western blond blued women are particularly evil and in need of conversion or death.

      Reply
      • Pierre

         /  9th January 2015

        Yes, the christians are getting wiped out as you rightly say. I believe that Iraq is particularly bad at present.

        I think that muslims were not coming to NZ (and other countries) in the past to take it over (my personal belief). However, for various reasons (some I’ve alluded to originally) we now have a sizeable number of extremist doing just that. Have we created a monster due to meddling in the middle east or was this going to happen anyway. This last point is now a bit moot as the reality is that some (few, some, many, most????) muslims are now a danger to our society.

        Your re-write of Johnny is possible – though I feel that my original example was prevalent historically (and may still be so) – and we need to prevent scenarios such as you outline from occurring.

        I am truly scared of my safety from these extremists and don’t think our approach is helping.

        In Iraq the was the lies of WMD (the nuclear ones being particularly amateurish). This rhetoric was followed by real war. And rational discussion was shut down by Bush (“you’re with us or you’re a terrorist”). Is the same happening in North Korea (noting that Sony had the explicit US Govt approval to make the film). Why wouldn’t disaffected muslims believe that they are going to be the subject of a holocaust and therefore fight back?

        Sadly, I can’t think of any serious policies that would make a difference. However, what we’re doing and where we’re going is definitely wrong.

        Reply
        • kiwi_guy

           /  9th January 2015

          I have read Noam Chomsky, John Pilger and other ( investigative ) journalists and accept a lot of what they have revealed about Western government and corporate exploitation of the 3rd World.

          To me this knowledge only makes it more important that we drop the “Multiculturalism and Diversity amen” world view. It’s not smart to important large populations whose home lands we may one day be in conflict with regardless of who is at fault. The USA and China could enter open conflict with each other and we have a large immigrant population of Chinese fresh of the boat – what are we going to do with them all in that scenario?

          A lot of the anti immigrant sentiment is aimed almost exclusively at Muslims but this is where I diverge. I don’t have any problem with any culture in itself, I have no business telling them how to live their lives in their part of the world , its up to them to figure out how to do that best.

          I have a problem with “Multiculturalism” as it is applied in the West as an economic solution for population decline or in the case of Progressives an ideological exercise to “smash White Supremacy/Capitalism/Patriarchy!” but couched in more appealing terms like “Diversity!” and “Cultural Enrichment!”.

          A good example of the hatred aimed at white Westerners by Progressives is that former Maori Party MP who mouthed of about the victims getting what they deserved for their “cultural supremacy”. Of course all the Lefties quickly distanced themselves form him but in reality he only blurted out what they believe and state in more couched terms.

          We need to shut the immigration flood gates, completely expose and discredit the Cultural Marxists/Progressive “Multiculturalism! DIversity!” propaganda. Send a lot of the immigrants back and start encouraging NZers to have more kids IF we really do need to maintain population.

          Reply
          • Pierre

             /  9th January 2015

            I think we are better placed as a country in terms of immigration with our points system (some suggest our money one has drawbacks – KDC being a popular example touted rightly or not). This is the direction Farage & UKIP seem to be suggesting (rather than total ban and/or eviction). France has always had problems. I spent quite some time there in 1998 and the immigrants from (French colony) Algeria were the issue. Despite walking everywhere and speaking the language I definitely avoided particular areas of Paris. (Ironically, during my time there they hosted the football world cup complete with a riot….by the English.)

            With muslims being just under 1% of the population (and lower than many nationalities – which they aren’t of course) I’m not convinced that it is at the level of concern. Most asians I meet are professionals or skilled and seem to fit into society rather well. I can’t imagine similar muslims would be markedly different (the few I do meet aren’t anti-social). Perhaps being more rigorous with the points system and a bit less accommodating with refugees might be the way to go.

            Reply
            • kiwi_guy

               /  9th January 2015

              Yes NZ is remote so is able to control borders against human populations on the move, there are as many as or more refugees or displaced individuals than at the end of WW2, and it is ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE as the world population rockets to 9 10 or even 12 billion in the next 5 or so decades.

              I feel sorry for refugees and the Leftie part of me acknowledges Western powers part in destabilizing other regions, but we can’t let them all in.

              Chain immigration is the biggest problem, one gets their foot in the door and then are allowed to bring their mum in and so on till the entire village except the goat herd has suddenly gained NZ citizenship.

              France has a long colonial history and granting citizenship to all French Empire subjects eg Algerians, so that complicates things big time over there.

              Too many Asians now, that needs to be halted as well.

              Population decline/economic growth and Progressive anti white/Western social engineering, hidden behind “Enriching vibrant multiculturalism” propaganda, are the 2 justifications given for massive immigration into the West.

              We need to reject both these rationales.

    • Goldie

       /  9th January 2015

      Pierre: If freedom of speech is narrowly defined and circumscribed (and who decides what is “persecution”?), then it really isn’t a freedom at all, is it?

      In any case, the magazine was publishing cartoons of Mohammed – that is hardly persecution. For this, the staff were murdered by fanatics.

      Reply
      • Pierre

         /  9th January 2015

        You raise a good point. When does it go from personal freedom of choice to a more general persecution. I’d suggest that Nazi Germany had crossed over into persecution of the Jews (followed of course by rather unsavoury actions). But indeed where is the line?

        I wasn’t able to define that point myself (hence the dichotomy of left vs right that I gave) but actually saying I think that there was a line and giving a vague opinion of where I think it might (by reference to where I viewed the left/right positions).

        The cartoons alone are not persecution; my point was that there is a large amount of anti-Muslim commentary in the media and perhaps the sheer volume and intensity has changed the focus from freedom of speech to persecution. Perhaps it hasn’t, but I think it’s a worthy issue to discuss.

        Reply
        • The line is very clear. It is when people take to physical violence. But speech – even “a large amount of anti-Muslim commentary” is hardly persecution.

          Persecution? Those fanatics murdered cartoonists and policemen because they are fanatics, for whom anyone who disagrees with them is an enemy to be killed. We have seen this in the Middle East – the fanatics have slaughtered Yazidis and Assyrians. Are you saying that the Yazidis and Assyrians were persecuting the fanatics and so somehow brought their fate on themselves?

          Reply
  4. Alan Wilkinson

     /  9th January 2015

    There is a a good article in the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11332635/Paris-Charlie-Hebdo-massacre-We-moderate-Muslims-must-act.html

    The author escaped an honour killing attempt by her own family. What is blatantly missing from this debate is any discussion by Muslims about the tenants of their own religion that enable it to be used as a tool for promoting horrific evils.

    Only Muslims can fix that problem and frankly they have a duty to do so.

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  9th January 2015

      No, us Westerners can fix the problem, send them back, preserve our Western cultural heritage.

      Reply
      • Shane Le Brun

         /  9th January 2015

        there could be a secular values test on permanent residency/citizenship? no arranged marriages, cutting off of clits, its not okay to kill a family member with the consent of the rest of the family, its not okay to shield a kiddy fiddler from justice…., etc etc that would weed out the moderates from the extreme nutbar types in all religious communities…..

        Reply
        • kiwi_guy

           /  9th January 2015

          They will say whatever needs to be said to get their visa, we are just stupid whities and infidels, so its all good to BS us.

          I don’t have a problem with small communities of various ethnic groups and cultures, it makes life a bit more interesting. But it is clear that we are heading the same way as Aussie and a bit further down the line is Sweden with street riots, no go zones for whites etc.

          I used to buy into Multiculturalism but now I am agreeing more and more with the Nationalistic right wingers even though I am wary of their other political views.

          Reply
  5. Brown

     /  9th January 2015

    “All you lack is their physical violence.”

    This is where you fall down by being unable to make a distinction and that is the difference Pete – one is simply crude free speech (like it or not) and the other is physical violence. These blokes actually do what they say they will and their holy book supports it – you cannot escape what it says when taken in context.

    I wish no harm on a Muslim but I’m not going to sit back and pretend there will be no problem with Islam’s fundamentals.

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  9th January 2015

      I think PG is just butt hurt because some one accused him of being a coward and appeaser at Kiwiblog, As PG pointed out, he linked through to the cartoons but did not post them here because he doesn’t like them which is fair enough. However I would challenge PG as to why he believes that those cartoons are “offensively provocative”. Isn’t satire going to be offensive or provocative to at least one person if it is doing its job properly?

      Reply
      • Nothing to do with butt hurt, I have a history of calling crap at Kiwiblog. Their over-reaction to disagreeing with me is common and often pathetic.

        Yes satire is often offensive and/or provocative, not my style hense I didn’t republish. But I support the right of others to publish. Simple as that.

        Reply
  6. Mike C

     /  9th January 2015

    @KiwiGuy. It appears the Charlie Magazine Cartoonists were doing a fricking awesome job of taking the Mickey out of Muhammed with satire, because four of the magazines cartoonists and their work colleagues and a visitor and a few French Policemen were killed in cold blood by alleged locally grown terrorists, claiming to be Islamic followers.

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  9th January 2015

      You can thank Cultural Marxism and “Multiculturalism” for that.

      Reply
      • Those diss slogans don’t mean anything to me.

        New Zealand has been multicultural for about two hundred years. And for much of that time a minority of people who seem to think they’re superior try to put down other minorities that are different to them. It’s often little more than ugly intolerance.

        Reply
        • kiwi_guy

           /  9th January 2015

          I think an important part of the idea of multiculturalism is that all cultures are equally legitimate, I don’t think colonial NZ could be described as multicultural.

          I don’t think either side is 100% wrong or right. There are good points made on both sides and also some really stupid ideas or attitudes being expressed too.

          Explaining Cultural Marxism which I think is a legitimate label, despite it being thrown around a lot by Rush Limbaugh conspiracy theory types, would take awhile and it is not fully formed in my mind as it is a weighty political philosophy topic.

          Reply
  7. Mike C

     /  9th January 2015

    @KiwiGuy. I thank “God”, and blame them for all this shit, because he was apparently responsible for the Tower of Babel not ever being finished getting built.

    People with different dialects and religious ideals, quite clearly cannot live in harmony together on the same continent.

    More than 2,000 years of written history is proof of this sad fact.

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  9th January 2015

      Well Western Europe pulled it off post WW2. But mass immigration from other more distant cultures is a great way to destabilize that.

      Reply
    • MikeC – The people living in Mesopotamia – Assyrians, Arabs, Yazidis, Turkmen, Kurds – all with different beliefs and dialects – lived in harmony for many centuries.

      Reply
  8. Kittycatkin

     /  10th January 2015

    I think that the people who pigheadedly published the grossly offensive and provocative cartoons were the ones who gave in-and handed the extremists an excuse. I do find it hard to understand why someone would go out of their way to provoke and inflame people needlessly, knowing what the reaction will be-and then squawk when they get it.

    I hope that the NZ people who support the Charlies will also support Boobs on Bikes and the porn expos that follow (if there are more of these) as freedom of expression-also the repulsive tshirts that World designed for babies with slogans like ‘Future Porn Star’ and “I’m a Tit Man.”

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  10th January 2015

      To turn your nonsense around I take it you would find terrorists equally justified in killing porn stars and producers of t-shirts or anything else you disapprove of?

      Reply

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