Innocent until proven a risk should be an inalienable Kiwi principle

It was inevitable that the French killers have been killed. They lived by the gun, died by the gun. A fair enough outcome.

Sad that more innocent people have been killed.

What does this mean for New Zealand? There’s far less risk of anything like this happening here but it’s not zero risk. There should be and will be much discussion about surveillance for protection versus intrusion on privacy.

There will also be ongoing discussion on immigration. There will also be ongoing discussion on immigration. There have been a number of calls to stop immigration of other cultures and religions, and some have even suggested deportation of all Muslims.

It’s worth noting that the Kouachi brothers were born in France.

So should anyone whose parents weren’t born in New Zealand be kicked out of the country just in case there’s a nutter amongst them?

100% protection against terrorism is impossible.

Terrorists want to create mayhem and provoke division. The best way to combat that is to remain calm and cautious, and to not change how we do things in New Zealand as a knee jerk reaction to events in France.

Reacting to the hate and intolerance of terrorists with hate and intolerance allows them to destroy our special way of life.

We need to hold New Zealand values as very precious – our tolerance of different cultures and religions with a relative absence of persecution based on differences.

Innocent until proven a risk should be an unalienable Kiwi principle.

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39 Comments

  1. I’ve posted this at Kiwiblog and an unsurprising immediate response, from ‘big bruv’:

    “Innocent until proven a risk should be a basic Kiwi principle.”

    Thanks once again for telling us all how to deal with things Pete, where would we be without your daily instructions.

    Of course, should we follow your advice then we would be leaving ourselves wide open to attack. If the last few years (and this last week in particular) has proven one thing it is that we simply cannot trust anybody of the Muslim faith. The far more sensible thing to do with anybody of that poisonous faith is to treat them as guilty until they can prove their innocence.

    That’s crap and totally against Kiwi principles.

    Reply
    • Pierre

       /  10th January 2015

      I’m not surprised. It seems to me that the main 4 blogs (WO, KB, TS, TDB) have (allow?) mostly commentators & moderators who hold fairly extreme views which they do not change. Of course this allows any inconsistencies in the views to be highlighted (aka ridiculed mercilessly). Your approach of debating and forming a reasoned middle ground based on facts is a threat to them (e.g., facts on climate change will quickly get you banned from WO).

      Reply
    • Kittycatkin

       /  10th January 2015

      (unable to bear it any longer) It’s INalienable, not UNalienable !

      Reply
  2. Kittycatkin

     /  10th January 2015

    My parents were from Ulster (and you should have seen the way Australian customs went through my mother’s luggage when they saw this on her passport-they were polite and decent about it, but they did what they had to do) but it wasn’t assumed that we were all IRA terrorists and chucked out along with all the other Ulster people in Wanganui (wrong religion, anyway) But the IRA did some appalling things. Obviously on a smaller scale, as it was Britain they were after, but even so…

    Should everyone from Ulster have been guilty until proved innocent ?

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  10th January 2015

      That is nothing like the Islamism which has declared jihad on Western Civilisation.

      “Ulster people” would regard themselves as part of Western Civilization wouldn’t they?

      Reply
  3. Kittycatkin

     /  10th January 2015

    Some people have very short memories-they don’t remember the Rainbow Warrior, blown up by order of the French government to stop protests against nuclear testing.

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  10th January 2015

      Again, not even comparable to what is going on with mass immigration in Europe.

      Reply
      • Kittycatkin

         /  10th January 2015

        My grandmother saw pieces of bodies being hooked down from trees after one of the IRA’s bombing attacks, and it wasn’t uncommon to see the pavements being hosed down to remove the last of the blood and other remains.

        Reply
        • kiwi_guy

           /  10th January 2015

          Sorry, still not the same issue. See below.

          Reply
          • Kittycatkin

             /  10th January 2015

            That’s easy to say when you haven’t lived through it as my family did. It was on a smaller compass, but that’s no credit to those doing it. My aunt routinely & matter-of-factly checked the car for odd wires before she went out in it. Remember when the regiment in London was blown up ? London was brought to a standstill quite a few times. I routinely leave a bag of shopping in my usual cafe and don’t expect to find the bomb squad there when I return from the loo. If I see a bag that someone has stood on a chair, I don’t expect it to blow up and take me with it. Many mixed religion couples had to emigrate-there were too many cases of knee-capping of those who were going out with a boy or girl from the other side. When my mother heard the Irish national anthem on the radio here, her first reaction was absolute horror-it would have been asking for trouble in Ulster.

            Reply
        • Mike C

           /  10th January 2015

          You are of both German-Jewish as well as Irish-Ulster descent too Kitty?

          Reply
          • Kittycatkin

             /  10th January 2015

            My Jewish ancestors were in the UK inc. Northern Ireland. We did have relations in Europe, but distant ones. as the UK ones had been there for ? generations. Jews have lived in the UK for a very long time-mine certainly considered themselves to be British as well as Jewish.

            Reply
  4. kiwi_guy

     /  10th January 2015

    “Reacting to the hate and intolerance of terrorists with hate and intolerance allows them to destroy our special way of life.”

    Multiculturalism is an epic Fail, terrorism is just the icing on that cake wreck.

    You are avoiding the issue of mass immigration into the West by pretending it is all about a few baddies wrecking it for the rest of us who are happily skipping around hand in hand with our diverse neighbours.

    Mass immigration has been justified on two grounds. One, collapsing Western white populations so import lots of 3rd Worlders. Two, disguised in feel good platitudes about “diversity” and “multiculturalism”, a Progressive or Cultural Marxist ideology that believes Western Civilisation is an evil white supremacist patriarchal capitalist system that needs to be “smashed” or “transformed”. Mass immigration from the 3rd World is seen as one tool to break down white Western culture by reducing the white population to a minority in the West.

    Here is a good example of a Cultural Marxist indoctrinated Social Justice Warrior:

    Tweets from a Brandeis African Studies student after NYPD police executed by a black muslim:

    i have no sympathy for the nypd officers who were murdered today.

    — Khadijah (خديجة) (@punQros3) December 20, 2014

    lmao, all i just really dont have sympathy for the cops who were shot. i hate this racist f—ng country.

    — Khadijah (خديجة) (@punQros3) December 21, 2014

    Lynch is a junior and an “Undergraduate Department Representative in the African and Afro-American Studies Department.

    Brandeis is a liberal arts school named for the former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis. It ranked #35 among national universities in the 2015 US News College ranking. Tuition and fees are $47,833.

    Khadijah Lynch was forced to step down as a student representative, however in a press release the Department made it clear they completely sympathised with her.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  10th January 2015

      No, multiculturalism is not an epic fail. On my last big building project I had a Swiss architect, Dutch engineer, German electrician, American builder, English painter, Maori carpenters, pakeha blocklayer. No problems and pooled expertise and ideas.

      Obviously religious and racial hatreds spilling over into a fanatical fringe are the problems, as well as the malevolent powers that fund and incite them.

      Reply
      • Kittycatkin

         /  10th January 2015

        Should we refuse entry to English people because a very small number have been crooks and murderers ?

        Reply
      • kiwi_guy

         /  10th January 2015

        One guy in construction said that they most of the kiwis on a site and replaced them with cheap asian labour. He said for example it took 3 asians to install a door ( badly ) compared to one Kiwi builder, but they are dirt cheap so what do they care.

        So yeah tell the kiwis having their jobs taken and the property buyers who are getting shit construction hidden behind a slap of paint just how FABULOUS you think “multiculturalism” is.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  10th January 2015

          More fool his clients. You get what you pay for. Nothing to do with multiculturalism.

          Reply
          • kiwi_guy

             /  10th January 2015

            Yes it does if you actually bother to think about it. You avoid the fact that these immigrants take NZers jobs, immigrants who are brought in under the economic boost/”multiculturalism” meme.

            Also your example is virtually all WHITE, do you even appreciate the irony of that?

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  10th January 2015

              Rubbish from start to finish. The Asians were not brought in on a multiculturalism programme but under normal immigration qualifying rules. There is a shortage of builders for the Chch rebuild so many have been imported. Skin colour is irrelevant to multiculturalism. It is not so irrelevant to the racial and religious factors I identified as the problem.

              The guts of it is that people who do not accept principles of freedom from oppressive religious beliefs should not be allowed entry. That is a much more accurate target than your blind anti-multiculturism.

            • KiwiGuy: the NZ immigration system is very strict. To gain admittance you have to prove you have skills in an area deemed to have a critical or long term skills shortage, and those skills must be of NZQA level 3 or better (i.e. highly skills professions) – that is to say, there are not enough NZers who have the skills to do that job. The list of those skills is on the Immigration website – you can look for yourself at http://skillshortages.immigration.govt.nz/assets/uploads/long-term-skill-shortage-list-2014-08-06-.pdf
              Your claim that “these immigrants take NZers jobs” is untrue.

        • Kittycatkin

           /  10th January 2015

          Anyone who thinks that there are no lousy builders who are not Asian is deluding themselves. You should see the way someone constructed our fence and slapped a coat of paint on it, and the same person (NZ Pakeha) painted over the rusty roof and left us to discover this after we bought the house. . The plumber who did our spouting…I could have done better myself, There were huge men walking on the roof, which made it leak-and they charged us to fix it (I raised merry hell about this and didn’t pay)

          The Asian builders down the road seem to done a good job-and the roofer who reroofed our house is Chinese.

          Reply
  5. kiwi_guy

     /  10th January 2015

    What have you got to say about the Jews getting executed in the Kosher store in Paris today, PG? Still think “Multiculturalism” rocks?

    Reply
    • The deaths in the supermarket were terrible. Are you suggesting Jewish culture shouldn’t be allowed in France? Monoculture means monoculture.

      Reply
      • Kittycatkin

         /  10th January 2015

        If NZ had monoculture, how many of us would be here ?

        Reply
      • kiwi_guy

         /  10th January 2015

        No, you got it arse backwards. Jews have been in France forever, they are part of French culture. It is the flood of Muslim immigrants into France that has resulted in increasingly high levels of violence against French Jews, places of worship arsoned, random attacks on Jews in the streets by Muslims. Jews are saying many of them have or are thinking of packing their bags and heading to Israel, they feel like it is Germany in the 1930s all over again.

        You can thank you “Multiculturalism” Progressive ideology for that.

        You need to distinguish between multiculturalism as an empirical fact and as ideology. There is nothing wrong with having a few other cultures in the mix, I don’t think any country in the world is monocultural, but nearly all have a DOMINANT culture.

        What is not acceptable is flooding your country with other cultures either as an anti- Western/anti-white Marxist style social engineering project as the Progressives are doing or as an easy answer to collapsing white Western populations.

        It has created the perfect sh!t storm as we are witnessing.

        Reply
        • KiwiGuy: “Jews have been in France forever, they are part of French culture.”
          So have Muslims. Muslims made a unit of Napoleon’s army, and Algerians made up a disproportionate number of the French Allied armies in WW1 and WW2. Algeria was considered to be a part of metropolitan France until the 1960s and were French citizens.

          Reply
  6. Kittycatkin

     /  10th January 2015

    I’d have stood Khadijah Lynch down for her illiteracy-I can’t believe that a university student could write such drivelling twaddle. Has she never heard of capital letters ? She seems to have been trying to cause a sensation with her unlovely views which were so badly expressed…well, she did, if that was her wish. Her remarks were extremely immature.

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  10th January 2015

      Well in her defense they are Twitter posts, lol.

      But your comment on her illiteracy actually points to the issue that I think you are missing on this. Cultural Marxism dominates the Liberal Arts departments of higher education in the West, the students are there to be POLITICISED not educated. They then graduate and shift out into the culture spreading Social Justice Warrior propaganda as “journalists”, “social justice activists” etc.

      You think Ms Lynch is just “immature”, she is in fact been turned into a resentful hostile Social Justice Warrior ideologue out to “smash Patriarchy! smash white supremacy! smash Capitalism!’. These comrades are pretty much the Western equivalent of Mao’s fanatical youth organisation, and cultural police, the Red Guard.

      Reply
      • Kittycatkin

         /  10th January 2015

        I have two degrees in English literature, various languages and history. The only politicising was done by other students, not lecturers, and there was nobody with such poor literacy skills-the fact that she was on Twitter is irrelevant. There were, of course, feminists (sic) who’d have people believe that all men were MCPs, like the lecturer who assumed that the reason for one male student’s not being at a seminar was that it was about a female poet…a female student was pleased to correct this, he was performing at a concert. The idea that people at university are such fools that they allow themselves to be made into mindless fanatic clones is not really realistic-though some will go that way, of course, of their own volition.

        Reply
  7. Kittycatkin

     /  10th January 2015

    The police killer was a criminal nutter who happened to be a Muslim convert; his issue seemed to be that black men are being targeted by the US police, which doesn’t seem to be in dispute. But I’d bet that he was looking for a reason/excuse to kill someone-he had a very long record for violence-and that his supposed religion was irrelevant in this case.

    When it’s below freezing, who wouldn’t walk with their hands in their pockets as one disbelieving black man who was stopped by police was doing ? Stopped by the police for not wanting his hands to freeze ? I bet that there were white people all around doing the same thing. I wonder how many of them were stopped.

    Reply
    • kiwi_guy

       /  10th January 2015

      I love the Mike Brown anti racists protestors “Hands Up Don’t Shoot!”. Of course he never did have his hands up did he? And it turned out Brown had just strong armed a convenience store then proceeded to assault a police officer through the car window. He was obviously off his tits on dope. But hey it must be the racist evil white cops fault he ended up dead.

      I love the way Brown got called a “Gentle Giant”, lol. And then the black race baiter Rev Al Sharpton rocks on up to the show, in the 1990s it was his fellow protestors that burned down a Jewish store in New York killing at least 8 people.

      Reply
  8. I’m waiting for the call to ‘kick out all men with BEARDS !’ (like me).. extremists come in many colours, political & religious persuasions.

    btw I hear some calling.. for women to be banned from wearing headscarves/’hijab’.. does this include catholic/christian NUNS ?

    again i say.. ‘IGNORANCE is the enemy NOT Islam !’

    Reply
    • Mike C

       /  10th January 2015

      I think you are onto something, Zedd 🙂

      There should be World-Wide Laws that:-
      1. Force men to shave every single day
      2. Ban Hoodies, Hats and Head Scarfs
      3. Makes all beliefs in Religion illegal

      First one will obviously upset all the lazy baskets like you, Zedd. LOL.

      Second one will upset the violent armed
      robbers of our local dairy’s and service stations, and milliners and bald men, and the males who wear the western style of clothing but force all of their Wives and Daughters to wear traditional garb from “The Old Country”.

      Third one will prevent or create, WW3.

      Reply
      • Kittycatkin

         /  10th January 2015

        I hate the idea that women are ‘forced’ to dress in a particular way…I have known Muslim doctors who wear the traditional scarf. It seems that no matter how much women say that they dress to please themselves, they are not paid the compliment of being taken seriously. If Muslim women choose to not display their bodies for all to see, that’s their business. If Indian women wear gorgeous Indian clothes, that’s theirs. People tend not to assume that Western women are forced to dress in a particular way.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  10th January 2015

          Heard of the religious police? Or forced marriage? We tend not to assume Western women are subject to those either.

          Reply
  9. @KittyKat. Any female adult living here in New Zealand, who wears a burqa or head dress and robes in public, is suffering from Battered Womans Syndrome.

    Reply
    • Kittycatkin

       /  10th January 2015

      How do you know ? Have you asked them all ? I have known doctors who wear the headdress and I have met a few women who wear the burqa. They all seem like intelligent women who aren’t being forced into anything against their will. Why is it so hard for some people to believe that Muslim and Jewish women want to be modest-that it’s their decision-that they want not to have their bodies sexualised ? It’s insulting to these women to doubt their word as if they were liars or brainwashed zombies. A doctor is likely to know her own mind.. Do you assume that Western women who wear clothes that show their breasts, bums and sometimes genitals are being forced to do so ? Rihanna has turned up at functions wearing a mesh ‘dress’, a tiny triangle over her pubes and that’s about it. I see nothing liberated about dressing like a prostitute, unless one is one, and allowing the whole world a free pervy look. Muslim and Orthodox Jewish men have to marry a woman before they have a look at anything; no free samples there.

      It seems that some people think that women are incapable of deciding for themselves when it comes to the way we dress. I would be very insulted if people assumed that I was forced to dress in a particular way and that I was lying if I said that I was not, or too stupid to know any better.

      Reply

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