Flag consideration or pissy political pointscoring?

It hasn’t taken long for the flag discussion process to be ambushed by pissy political point scoring.

This could be the only chance in a generation – or in a lifetime – to consider alternatives to our current flag and decide whether as a country we want to change or not.

I think the approach taken by the Stand For website is a bit strange, they seem to be trying to do more than just consider a flag change.

But to attack it as a way of attacking John Key because he instigated the process shows how childish and petty our politics can be.

And The Standard is promoting the pettiness as if it’s a win against Key and National.

Standfornz – when social media goes bad

The site www.standfor.co.nz is supposed to get us all excited about the flag distraction:

“Before our country decides which flag we’ll stand for, we want to know what you stand for”

It’s not turning out the way the Nats intended.

And the comments show that a number of blog participants don’t respect democratic process or serious debate about a serious issue.

Sad to see individuals doing this.

It says a lot about the gravitas of New Zealand’s main Labour left blog for them to be promoting this.

And they will probably be amongst the quickest and loudest to complain if a new flag is chosen that they don’t like.

UPDATE: surprise surprise – lprent is against any flag change so is against any sensible debate about it.

Who cares. A flag is a meaningless cloth to me both as a citizen and an ex-soldier. I’m usually pretty proud to be a New Zealander. I don’t need some manky cloth to remind me of that.

And:

Tell me what the point of having a flag at all is again?

I can’t see any point nor reason to change it. Certainly the idiots promoting it have yet to make a single argument for having either a flag at all (see my post on that) or a change in the design.

We aren’t changing constitution. So what are we doing this for?

As far as I can see, only because John Key has such a pitiful track record that he wants to charge everyone for a face saving exit.

That’s how dire our political discourse has become.

Leave a comment

19 Comments

  1. Sponge

     /  11th May 2015

    The whole flag change issue is just a distraction and I hate the idea of our flag being changed to suit a parties political ends.

    What is more anyone who believes that any flag selected will not be a Maori design is deluded.

    I have lost a hell of a lot of respect for John Key over this issue.

    Reply
  2. Alan Wilkinson

     /  11th May 2015

    I agree with you, Pete. The Left’s nonsense and hypocrisy over this is as hilarious as their delusion they will be taken seriously.

    Reply
    • Goldie

       /  11th May 2015

      It was Labour policy to have a referendum to change the flag (and Charles Chauvel pushed a private member’s Bill in the House), so their hypocrisy is quite barefaced.

      Reply
  3. kittycatkin

     /  11th May 2015

    I hate it when people use the dead servicemen to enforce their argument by saying that they fought and died for the flag. Of course they didn’t-who on earth would ? They fought under it, not for it. They’d have gone no matter what the flag was. Nobody dies for a flag as such.Well, hardly anyone.

    Reply
  4. kittycatkin

     /  11th May 2015

    Rats, I can only do one thumbs up. Er, not that I would try to give myself vast numbers of them-just other people.

    Reply
  5. Have you ever actually thought through what a national flag is and the reasons for having it in the first place? Care to explain why it is a good idea for a nation to have one?

    The functional reasons for their existence have long since past for technical reasons. Now they just seem to be held on to by people who substitute them for thinking. You are a good cas ein point.

    I wrote about why I didn’t think we should have a flag at all back in March in this post “On the flag – lets not have one“.

    This isn’t exactly a new topic with me. I started thinking about this back in 1977 when I went into the Army, and in fact started a barracks wide argument about exactly this when I was doing specialist training the following year.

    But it is unlikely that you will be able to get past being a mindless parrot with a parasitism fetish for repeating other peoples ideas.

    In this case you seem to have flogged your ideas from some PR hack being paid to write for wasting money on mid-term referendums..

    Reply
    • Have you ever actually thought through what a national flag is and the reasons for having it in the first place? Care to explain why it is a good idea for a nation to have one?

      Something for people to wave at the rugby. Something to raise at the Olympics so the country can feel proud. Something to lower to half mast on appropriate occasions. How many reasons do you want? Something for other countries to raise in respect for visiting dignitaries and the country.

      Do you know of any countries that don’t have a flag?

      Is virtually every country in the world wrong and lprent is right?

      Reply
      • Ah so for much the same reasons as Alan Wilkinson. Nothing much….

        I have a flagpole and everyone else is doing it. Somewhat pathetic when you think about it eh?

        If they don’t have a flag at sports events they will wave something else. Or wear more makeup. They already do.

        Most of the reasons amount to “we have a flag – lets wave it at possible enemies”. Silly damn reason when you think it through.

        As for tradition.. Have you ever looked at how flags evolved? They started as a device to keep armies centered on the field of battle. They are obsolete in a military sense. But silly buggers keep using the damn things because they are “traditional”. That isn’t a reason. That is an excuse…

        Reply
    • GregM

       /  11th May 2015

      “Have you ever actually thought through what a national flag is and the reasons for having it in the first place? Care to explain why it is a good idea for a nation to have one?”
      Yes. And as an ex serviceman yourself you should know.
      It is where we came from. It is the way we want the rest of the world to see us. It is what we, as a nation are.
      I reckon our current flag does exactly that.

      Reply
      • But I don’t need some manky bit of cloth to remind me of that. I never had. That is what history courses are for where your family doesn’t have the depth.

        This is NZ. It is a society that is remarkably free of pissant psuedo-patriotism of the type we see in the US, where idolising a flag allows ‘patriots’ to avoid their responsibilities to do something for others.

        Instead I and most others in this society put effort into things that we think will improve my society.

        If we are going to have a flag, then the flag as we have at present is as good as any other. But I’m still going to look at people who worship some old military tech as irresponsible pagans.

        Reply
        • GregM

           /  12th May 2015

          Fair comment. The over the top “patriotism” favoured by some countries does my head in as well. I still think the whole referendum is a complete waste of time and money.

          Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  11th May 2015

      In the unlikely event of you winning Olympic medal you would probably enjoy staring at an empty flag pole – but most other people would not. I think you just lost that referendum.

      Reply
      • Ok, there are some reasons explicit and implied there. Lets look at them shall we..

        1. We need a new flag because we have a flagpole. You are clearly a bonehead who has never thought about cause and effect. Flag poles are there to put flags on. They are not there to make a reason for having a flag. FAIL.

        2. We should have a flag because everyone else is doing it. Why? And please provide some intelligent reasons this time….

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  12th May 2015

          Oh dear. You live in a world where you are the only person who matters. Reasons are only what matters to you. You have no understanding of or empathy to anyone else so nothing that matters to them matters to you.

          A sad case indeed and probably beyond treatment or cure. You have my sympathy but not my interest. I wonder what if anything you think when you watch tears come to the eyes of athletes as they watch their flag being raised in celebration of their achievement culminating years of sacrifice and effort. I’m not sure that I want to know but it might be good for you to think about that.

          Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  11th May 2015

      An offensive dweep and stupid with it. Go away, learn some manners and come back when and if you can make a sensible and civil contribution, lprent.

      Reply
  6. SteveRemmington

     /  12th May 2015

    Also an ex service man who trained as a specialist?

    Lynn seems to be the only person alive that has a CV longer than David Cunliffes.

    Reply
  7. As a fourth generation New Zealander who like my last three generations have fought under the New Zealand Flag or the Union Jack, I am not persuaded by an argument that we need to bury or dissassociate ourselves from our Colonial Past to assert our essential Kiwiness. It is a fact of history and I see no purpose in changing it. The other question I have is this, if a change to the flag is needed to assert our Independence, then surely the various Oaths of Allegiance required in New Zealand will have to change. Servicemen owe their Allegiance to the Queen as well as loyally observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her heirs and successors, and of the officers set over them, until they shall be lawfully discharged. Not a Pollie or a Flag 8n sight!!

    Reply
  1. Would no flag be better? | Your NZ

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