Twyford and Little hammered from all sides

Andrew Little has endorsed the awful data analysis of Auckland house sales that was promoted by Phil Twyford over the weekend.

He has modified Twyfords statements that Labour would ban foreign buyers.

Twyford on The Nation:

We would ban foreign buyers from buying New Zealand houses, end of story.

We’re going to ban foreign buyers.

Little says they would ban foreigners from buying existing houses but they would be able to buy sections and build on them.

Auckland’s problem is a shortage of land available to build on, therefore pushing up land values, so it’s hard to see that helping much if at all.

Data analyst Rob Salmond tried to defend his work at Public Address: House-buying patterns in Auckland

Data Analyst Keith Ng slammed Salmond, also at Public address: My last name sounds Chinese

The Labour leaning blog has strong criticism of Labour playing a hamfisted race card and Ng continues to slam Labour in social media.

And it continues with another post at PA, by Tze Ming Mok: Identification strategy: Now it’s personal

The real question is what did the Labour Party think it was doing taking this public.  If they just fucked up, so far so familiar. If they did this on purpose for well-calculated reasons – and it works – we Chinese-sounding named people are in way more trouble in New Zealand than we ever thought we would be again.

The second comment on that thread is from Stephen Judd:

I just wrote and cancelled my regular donation to the party with the message that it can restart when we have three clear months without race-baiting or hippy punching.

As someone who belongs to another ethnic minority where people stereotype about money and leap to conclusions based on names, this shit makes my skin crawl.

Political messaging is different from rational discourse over policy and you don’t get a pass for Bayesian inference when there’s a thick layer of racist implication on top.

Salmond has had another go at defending himself, this time on his own blog, Polity: http://polity.co.nz/content/how-labour-estimated-ethnicity-surnames (I can’t load it at the moment, must be busy).

Meanwhile in the other fairly Labour leaning blog, The Standard, some of the troops are doing their best to defend their cause:

Anthony Robins: Auckland property buyers

The big story this morning is Labour’s analysis of Auckland property purchase data.

Greg Presland: International investment in Auckland housing

Phil Twyford’s recent announcement on Auckland’s housing crisis raises important issues concerning the inflow of overseas capital into our housing market.  But should it have depersonalised the argument?

Too late for depersonalisation now. That was yesterday, and Little has endorsed the personalisation (or the targeting of Chines) today.

Te Reo Putake: China Crisis

Good on Labour for saying what needed to be said. Can they, the Greens and NZ First save the next generation of Kiwis from being tenants in our own land?

Includes Bonus Seinfeld reference!

Te Reo Putake: Twyford Responds

Labour’s Housing Spokesperson Phil Twyford responds to accusations of racism and points to the way forward. The Labour Party will limit foreign speculation, build affordable houses and replenish the State Housing stock.

But there’s an onslaught of criticism of Twyford, Labour and Little in all of those.

If Labour get this off-side with their own side of the spectrum it would appear to be a major own goal.

This looks like the first big mistake and misjudgement by Andrew Little.

He didn’t look flash with his handling of the Northland by election but that situation was mainly dumped on him by Winston Peters.

But this has been entirely of Labour’s own doing, it seems like a planned strategy.

Perhaps a sign of how badly they misjudged on this is Peters is endorsing what they have done.

Some might think this is a good sign for a left wing coalition plus NZ First – but Green and Mana supporters have reacted in horror at Labour’s race bashing.

And all this is without even looking to the centre and right for their reaction.

This has happened half way through the Roy Morgan July polling period. Labour may be hoping the bulk of the polling was already done.

It may or may not be a disastrous way for Little to emerge from the political doldrums, but it surely makes his hill quite a bit harder to climb now.

Leave a comment

56 Comments

  1. “Auckland’s problem is a shortage of land available to build on.”

    One of Auckland’s problems is the continuation of attributing the problem to one factor.

    Twyford and Little might be dumb, outrageous and all the other labels they’ve attracted. Is their ‘data’ more or less accurate than Nick Smith’s?

    Today we get: Real estate insider: 90 per cent of Auckland properties sold to overseas Chinese in May
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11480138

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  13th July 2015

      So what? The sellers made a lot of money to reinvest or spend in NZ. There are only so many renters in NZ to occupy the houses so rents cannot be pushed beyond supply and demand. Builders and subdividers can make more houses to lower the prices for NZ house-owners – but only if the bureaucrats allow it.

      Reply
    • kittycatkin

       /  13th July 2015

      90% ? This seems awfully steep and awfully precise.But people will believe what they want to believe. If a Chinese landlord DID buy huge numbers of houses and then try to rent them out for exorbitant rents, nobody would take them. I was told once that when a house’s rent was too high. people are likely to take it for a short time and leave as soon as they can find something cheaper.

      Reply
  2. Brown

     /  13th July 2015

    The progressives have labeled anything to do with race racist in trying to remove debate so its now coming home to roost when we want a debate about Chinese investment. The issue with the mainland Chinese is their culture. My Chinese friends in Hong Kong don’t trust or like them much and I respect their opinion.

    Some sellers will make money to spend but I suspect most will not be “reinvesting” except buying another house. While we could supply more houses the issue is do we really want to when its just to satisfy capital fleeing from China? If China tanks we will have a screwed export market while still importing their junk. China doesn’t care – it reminds me of corporate clients I worked with. Management crawled up the client’s arses all day,everyday while us at the front line could see there was no relationship except master and slave. Behind the scenes we were being taken for suckers at every opportunity. We shouldn’t pretend such relationships are viable long term.

    I think its a problem, cultural, not racial, that we need to deal with.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  13th July 2015

      “While we could supply more houses the issue is do we really want to when its just to satisfy capital fleeing from China?”

      Why on earth not? It can only fund a bigger and better housing supply for occupation by New Zealanders.

      Reply
  3. Way left of centre

     /  13th July 2015

    “Some might think this is a good sign for a left wing coalition plus NZ First – but Green and Mana supporters have reacted in horror at Labour’s race bashing.”

    “If Labour get this off-side with their own side of the spectrum it would appear to be a major own goal.”

    Firstly it’s not race bashing, it’s labour vocalising concern at a very real problem in our housing market, where foreign investors with access to cheaper money are buying the foundations from under our kiwi feet right under our kiwi noses.
    What’s the point of gutting the environment protecting rma, to free up land to turn into housing (which I strongly oppose), if foreign investors can carry on unhindered, just with an increased selection to choose from? And I’m sure resident Chinese/English/Australians would like to level the playing field as they try in vain, like most citizens currently do, to join the property ladder in a foreign capitol inflated market place.

    It’s a mistake to believe the assorted fanatical rabid left winger oddballs at the standard are anywhere near labour’s own side, in fact the very opposite if you’ll trawl the archives, especially where mana is mentioned. Most fanatics there are just out to prove their credentials for their own purpose, that or they’re just a little retarded and divorced from the real world, or both. Many labour and green voters don’t want mana anywhere near government, and rightly so given hone et al, so I wouldn’t put value in the opinions of those with ulterior motive in offering them.

    Reply
    • “Firstly it’s not race bashing”

      Bull. Labour were well aware it would be seen as singling out one race. As it was. It was totally unnecessary but was a calculated attention seeker. Too bad about putting the boot into a large number of Chinese people to try and score a few political points.

      Reply
      • Way left of centre

         /  13th July 2015

        Au con·traire, It’s quite necessary and hopefully the calculated attention seeker will hasten the end of the obscenity of kiwis being outbid at auction by foreigners with cheaper money.

        Reply
        • Goldie

           /  13th July 2015

          Cheaper money? What is “cheaper money”?

          Reply
          • Way left of centre

             /  13th July 2015

            Money borrowed overseas at cheaper rates than are afforded us here.

            Reply
          • I’m waiting for Briscoes to start providing banking, they should have cheaper money every second week. 60% off would be good.

            Reply
            • kittycatkin

               /  13th July 2015

              What a nice idea 😀

              Briscoes-you’ll never bank better !

              Other places would make theirs 15% cheaper than anyone whose rates were lower !

    • Missy

       /  13th July 2015

      “it’s not race bashing”

      I will agree, it’s not race bashing – it is racial profiling.

      Twyford (and now Andrew Little) may not be ‘race bashing’ but they are conducting racial profiling based on nothing more than how a name sounds.

      So, here are the messages from this that friends and family have taken:

      1. Labour don’t want people with Chinese sounding names buying houses

      2. People with Chinese sounding names are speculators

      3. Labour believes that people with Chinese sounding names are all Chinese and foreigners

      4. Labour thinks that the only foreigners buying houses in Auckland are Chinese

      No, not race bashing at all, but definitely feeding into people’s racism and xenophobia with some very overt and open racial profiling.

      Reply
      • Way left of centre

         /  13th July 2015

        “So, here are the messages from this that friends and family have taken: ”

        You need to improve your support network. There’s some real dunderhead thinking going on in there.

        Reply
        • kittycatkin

           /  13th July 2015

          I’m not a dunderhead, I have three degrees. This is exactly the message that Labour are sending out. It is not a peculiarity of Missy’s-or mine-that we think so.

          Reply
          • Way left of centre

             /  13th July 2015

            Your interpretation skills are defective and you’ve completed missed the message. And to be quite fair, I’ve read some of your previous contributions here, and degrees you may have, but I’ll stick on dunderhead.

            Reply
            • Missy

               /  13th July 2015

              If the message has been missed that is because of the way that Phil Twyford chose to select the data, and present the message, it is nothing to do with people’s interpretation skills.

        • Missy

           /  13th July 2015

          “You need to improve your support network. There’s some real dunderhead thinking going on in there.”

          Instead of just insulting me, my family and my friends perhaps you could explain why it is ‘real dunderhead thinking’.

          Here is the issue, the only data Twyford used to come up with his claim that offshore Chinese speculators were buying up Auckland property was the sound of their name. That is a form of racial profiling, and that gives the message to the public that he is xenophobic, the messages received are what many people are hearing.

          The real dunderhead thinking in this is that Labour (and supporters) believe it isn’t a form of racial profiling to go through a list and pick out names based on how they sound, that they see it is justifiable to make assumptions on ethnicity, residency, citizenship & (in some cases I have seen from supporters), criminality, based on how a name sounds.

          Reply
          • Way left of centre

             /  13th July 2015

            1. Labour don’t want people with Chinese sounding names buying houses – UNLESS THEY LIVE HERE AS RESIDENTS AS DAVID PARKER RE-STATED TODAY.

            2. People with Chinese sounding names are speculators – ONLY IF THEY ARE SPECULATING CHINESE INVESTORS WITHOUT RESIDENT STATUS.

            3. Labour believes that people with Chinese sounding names are all Chinese and foreigners – I’M SURE THEY DON’T, BUT THEY DID COLLECT THE ONLY DATA AVAILABLE, CHECKED BY PARKER AND THE HERALD BEFORE RUNNING THE STORY. PETITION THE GOVERNMENT TO START A REGISTER AND REVISIT THE DEBATE IF YOU LIKE.

            4. Labour thinks that the only foreigners buying houses in Auckland are Chinese – YOU JUST MADE THAT UP UNLESS YOU CAN LINK TO A QUOTE.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th July 2015

              Labour doesn’t bother to think at all. They are just desperately searching for a dogwhistle to get media coverage for Mr and Mrs Invisible.

            • Missy

               /  13th July 2015

              Wow, calm down, no need to shout.

              Please do try and understand.

              By using a form of racial profiling in providing statistics on foreign ownership Labour have sent the message that they are only concerned about that particular ethnicity, from all I have read Twyford did not expand on the foreign ownership in his interview on The Nation, and that sends the message that he thinks Chinese are the only foreign buyers, and to bring it full circle he started from the point that people with Chinese sounding names are Chinese. It may not be the message Labour wants to give, or was even trying to give, but it is the message they did give.

              Perhaps you can explain to me how racially profiling suspected Chinese doesn’t provide the message that Labour doesn’t like Chinese buying houses in Auckland.

          • Way left of centre

             /  13th July 2015

            Not shouting, just making sure you didn’t miss the bits to educate your dunderhead collective.

            And as were all racially profiled every census. I’m not too bothered by it, but for the squeamish, bless your little hearts.

            Reply
            • Missy

               /  13th July 2015

              “Not shouting, just making sure you didn’t miss the bits to educate your dunderhead collective. ”

              It is generally accepted that the use of capitals on the internet and in electronic communications is shouting, so it is logical that I would take it as shouting. I see that you are continuing to use insults to try and get your point across. Maybe one day you will manage to debate someone without name calling.

              “And as were all racially profiled every census. I’m not too bothered by it, but for the squeamish, bless your little hearts.”

              Racial profiling doesn’t bother me, and in fact in many cases I welcome it, but Labour should be called out when they use racial profiling based on name only to try and make a political point – just as National, the Greens, ACT or any other party should be.

            • Way left of centre

               /  13th July 2015

              So you can logically assume capital letter is shouting, but you can’t see the problems of foreign ownership driving up prices beyond the reach of your fellow countrymen as detailed by Twyford. Okay.

              And like me, you’re not bothered by racial profiling, unless it’s used by the labour party as an indicator of a very real problem facing New Zealand citizens and residents. Got you.

              So now that’s clear, crocodile protestations aside, is there anything else I can help you with?

            • Missy

               /  13th July 2015

              “So you can logically assume capital letter is shouting, but you can’t see the problems of foreign ownership driving up prices beyond the reach of your fellow countrymen as detailed by Twyford. Okay.”

              ummm…. I don’t recall saying anything to that effect, you are now putting words in my mouth, and thoughts in my head. You don’t know what I can and can’t see, and for all you know I may be better informed than you or Phil Twyford are on this matter. By pointing out dodgy methodology resulting in unreliable statistics you seem to think that means I can’t see the issues or the problems. I was aware of the problems that would result in foreign speculation many years before the Chinese started buying houses in Auckland. Australians have been speculating in the Auckland market for a long time, because of the lack of stamp duty, lack of capital gains tax and rising prices in Sydney – where is Twyford’s figures on Australians buying into Auckland’s market, why did he focus his stats on Chinese only? Why isn’t he looking at names and saying too many Scots, or Irish, or Europeans are buying houses in Auckland? But feel free to keep your head in the sand over the dodgy stats, as the saying goes ‘why let facts get in the way of a good story’.

  4. Alan Wilkinson

     /  13th July 2015

    “where foreign investors with access to cheaper money are buying the foundations from under our kiwi feet right under our kiwi noses”

    Absurd. If we can sell them our milk and sheep we can sell them houses that the only market they can offer them for rent in is ours.

    Reply
    • Way left of centre

       /  13th July 2015

      “If we can sell them our milk and sheep we can sell them houses that the only market they can offer them for rent in is ours.”

      And they can keep selling us the cheap tat for sale in the warehouse and tainted toothpaste and shampoo in $2 shops. Just because we sell them milk and lamb doesn’t make it okay for them to tenant us in our own land.

      I have to say your argument for denying kiwis the chance to buy homes at a fair price on local wages using local finance is very weak.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  13th July 2015

        B.s. If you don’t want to rent from Chinese, build your own house. There is a vast area around Auckland tied up in 10 acre lifestyle blocks by Council zonings created at the instigation of idiots. Turn it loose.

        “And they can keep selling us the cheap tat for sale in the warehouse and tainted toothpaste and shampoo in $2 shops”

        If you think that is all that is made in China for export here you are just clueless.

        Reply
        • Way left of centre

           /  13th July 2015

          “If you think that is all that is made in China for export here you are just clueless.”

          If you think we only trade milk and lamb there you’re at least one level down from me.

          “If you don’t want to rent from Chinese, build your own house.”

          I’m okay, I own a property and I don’t need or want a rental portfolio – I’ll have to leave that for slumlord investors… Until a cgt comes in and does for their easy windfall money that is.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  13th July 2015

            So your crap about cheap tat was just crap then. As is your complaint about not being able to buy a house when the real problem is not being able to build houses.

            Reply
            • Way left of centre

               /  13th July 2015

              I wouldn’t say crap per se, but sure, it was as relevant to the argument of foreign investment grossly distorting the nz housing market as milk and lamb. At least I didn’t mention p precursors.
              But really, what were you thinking? We trade, therefore foreign opportunists with cheap money should rightfully be our landlords. Good grief, what we settle for when were gullible. lol

              Whilst new hosing stock is valued, the current problem isn’t building more and more, it’s purchases by non resident buyers and portfolio owners not paying taxes as they profiteer buying up the ones we already have and inflating prices, making home ownership unattainable during bubble times for average kiwis.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th July 2015

              More drivel. For every buyer there is a seller. Whenever prices are inflated it is the seller who profits, not the buyer. Selling houses to foreigners is no different from selling anything else, except the houses remain here, regulated and controlled by our laws and governments.

            • Way left of centre

               /  13th July 2015

              Overseas buyers are raising prices high above those affordable by average kiwis. When they on sell tax free, profits and monies leave the local economy. How is that good for us?

              Come on now, be a true kiwi and look after your own first.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  14th July 2015

              Who are they going to onsell to tax-free? Other foreigners? Who bring even more money into NZ presuming the sale is generating the profit you claim? How is that not good for NZers?

              I am being a true kiwi and looking after everyone who needs a house. That is why I accurately identify the real problem as bureaucratic obstructions to land use and construction. That affects and harms everyone who doesn’t already own a house. So does stupidity in mis-identifying the problem like you through ignorance and Labour by intent to mislead.

      • kittycatkin

         /  13th July 2015

        Hosing stock ? Does one cook with it, wear it as stockings or water the garden with it ?

        I am sitting here using a computer made in China, and most of our appliances were made there, including the tumble dryer and new deep freeze that we bought from the Warehouse. I use Chinese made toothpaste-$1 a tube in Pak & Save. The clothes I am wearing are Chinese. It goes on and on. Cheap tat ? Hardly.

        Reply
        • Way left of centre

           /  13th July 2015
          Reply
          • kittycatkin

             /  13th July 2015

            You said hosing stock. Do run away and buy a dictionary and a book of English usage.

            Reply
            • kittycatkin

               /  13th July 2015

              Alas, much.most of what you say is so poorly spelt and punctuated and ungrammatical that it makes no sense. It wouldn’t anyway, but it would at least be intelligible, even if it was nonsense.

            • Way left of centre

               /  13th July 2015

              I’m not buying in to your attempt at driving the narrative, but you did spot a couple of typos, so well done for that; though points off for pointing it out and attempting to make it a defining issue. But as everyone knows those who stoop to grammar policing have already lost the debate, no worries here.

            • Missy

               /  13th July 2015

              “But as everyone knows those who stoop to grammar policing have already lost the debate, no worries here.”

              No different to those who resort to insults rather than forming a logical argument.

            • Way left of centre

               /  13th July 2015

              “No different to those who resort to insults rather than forming a logical argument.”

              It’s not my fault if your family and friends have formed dunderhead opinions, but I suppose, like with Twyford, you’ll opt to blame the messenger rather than face up to real issues.

            • Missy

               /  13th July 2015

              “It’s not my fault if your family and friends have formed dunderhead opinions,”

              Wow, thanks for proving my point….

              And just for you since you seem to be having difficulty on the reading comprehension, I never stated those were my (or my families) opinions, but rather the messages that they received from Twyford. My opinion is that using how a name sounds to derive ethnicity or nationality is racial profiling – so please do enlighten me as to how that is a dunderhead opinion.

              “but I suppose, like with Twyford, you’ll opt to blame the messenger rather than face up to real issues.”

              What real issues? You haven’t raised any, and nor did Twyford. All that Twyford raised was that 39.5% of 45% of house sales from one real estate agent for a three month period were sold to someone who has a Chinese sounding name.

              Not all people of Chinese descent with a Chinese sounding name identify as Chinese, not all people with a Chinese sounding name are Chinese, not all people with a Chinese sounding name are offshore investors, not all offshore investors have Chinese sounding names, so how can any ‘real issue’ be faced up to when no-one has actually shown what the real issue is.

              You are more interested in throwing around insults rather than accepting that Labour made a huge mistake in gathering this data and releasing it.

            • Way left of centre

               /  13th July 2015

              To be fair about it, it’s you and yours that jumped to incorrect conclusions. I only told you you had it wrong.

              I’ve stated the issues on this page about two dozen times, that you chose to ignore is again down to you.

              Yes, not all Chinese sounding names will be from Chinese people, and not all of them will be non resident profiteers. This will affect the percentages somewhat, but when we get that register of foreign buyers then we’ll be in a better position to call it bunkum or spot on. Unlike some, I’m not hung up on the profiling detail. There’s a bigger picture and I believe you’re wilfully ignoring it for effect.

              I thank Labour, for a change, in getting the issue front and centre. Those faced with saving yet another 20k for a deposit in the face of more price rising foreign ownership should remember who’s doing what about property next election (which is probably why the right are being so vocal in their opposition).
              Good to see Labour at least starting to be pro active again.

  5. traveller

     /  13th July 2015

    When Len and the overpaid and underperforming Council get it’s consent and zoning sorted, releases more land and give us more homes, then so-called (and disputed) foreign investment won’t be a problem. Housing stock is the problem, and it’s one forward thinking council servants can solve.

    Reply
    • Way left of centre

       /  13th July 2015

      So your solution to he problem of overseas purchases locking out kiwis is to build more houses for them to buy – Insightful stuff.

      Reply
      • Way left of centre

         /  13th July 2015

        And with insightful I mean retarded, short sighted backwards thinking. 😉

        Reply
        • kittycatkin

           /  13th July 2015

          You do have the oddest idea of insightful, purchases (purchasers ?)-and other words, like with.. Do you own a dictionary ?

          Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  13th July 2015

        Blatantly obvious stuff to anyone with the faintest grasp of economics, markets or building and development. But an impenetrable mystery to know-absolutely-nothing-about-anything socialists.

        Reply
        • Way left of centre

           /  13th July 2015

          Well you would say that, wouldn’t you, though I suspect you’re just taking the party line and talking out of your arse.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  13th July 2015

            Your suspicions are even more worthless than your beliefs.

            Reply
            • Way left of centre

               /  13th July 2015

              Like your arguments, I’m unconvinced.

  6. David Parker has also jumped into it, criticising Race Relations Conciliator Susan Devoy who said:

    …the use of “half-baked” housing data to suggest overseas Chinese nationals were increasingly buying property in Auckland was “disappointing”.

    “Chinese New Zealanders deserve better than this and so does anyone keen on actually solving this issue.”

    Parker…

    …said the data used by Labour housing spokesman Phil Twyford was carefully checked by him and by the New Zealand Herald, which published it.

    “The data used is the best available and the Herald story makes that clear. Ms Devoy does not present any alternative data,” he said.

    “She should re-read the Human Rights Act because there is nothing in the Act that says contentious issues ought not to be discussed. There is nothing racist in what has been said. Labour’s policy is that if you have the right to live here you have the right to buy here, whatever your ethnicity.”

    Parker said he was surprised Devoy had not commented that it was outrageous the article showed Maori and Pasifika grossly under-represented as house buyers, house sellers and agents.

    “Surely this level of social exclusion is bad for race relations.”

    Salmond must be certain of his internal polling. But there’s a huge difference to preferring foreigners don’t by property here ad seeing Labour’s strategists as geniuses.

    Reply
  7. Way left of centre

     /  13th July 2015

    50 comments on a post. You’re welcome PG 😆

    Reply
    • Cheers. And you’re welcome here, as are all views.

      Reply
    • Way left of centre

       /  13th July 2015

      No worries.

      Start a topic on the lack of political comprehension among NZ’s gullible middle incomers and wannabe rich prick types and I’ll kick it around a bit for you if you like. See if we can’t get to a hundred.

      Only joking, it wouldn’t be a hundy interesting, just really really funny.

      Reply

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