Fiasco in Parliament over Christmas Island

Most of the attention is on John Key over his remarks aimed at Kelvin Davis and Labour foir “backing rapists” – I think thaty was way out of line from key but more on that later – but there’s a number of aspects to this.

The ex criminals, including New Zealand citizens, awaiting deportation who sent to Christmas Island and held their by Australia doesn’t look flash, and it isn’t. Retained without any charges remote from any possible contact with family or lawyers looks crap, and with Australias convict past they should know better and treat people better, regardless of their background.

This was brewing here anyway, but it became much more volatile with the uprising over the last few days.

It’s worth noting this tweet exchange prior to Parliament sitting today.

The twinning erosion of democracy marches on unabated under National, as independent media voices take refuge at RNZ

Kevin Retweeted David Cunliffe

So what will MPS from T opposition do about it ? we have a biased speaker in T house &T opp let him get away with it

Leftwing needs to pull head out of arse, unite as block & file OUT OF CHAMBERS at every biased speaker ruling

10:31 am
David Cunliffe Retweeted ⒶctivistsⒶotearoa

Breach of standing orders to criticise Speaker. Which is why I don’t.

If the opposition parties walked en masses it would be heard loud and clear. Just need to do it.

11:40 am
David Cunliffe Retweeted jocey

Noted

For the first time in17 years I voluntarily left Question Time in protest. Key saying “Labour supports sex offenders” over 501s is outrage

Cunliffe appeared to be one of the first to leave the Chamber.

Prior to this, as John Key was walking to Parliament, Kelvin Davis approached him, got in his face and ‘yelled’ at him according to NZ Herald in John Key accuses Labour of ‘backing rapists’:

Labour MP Kelvin Davis shouted at Mr Key on the way into the House, accusing him of inaction in helping New Zealand detainees in Australia.

“Prime Minister, you’re gutless,” Mr Davis yelled as Mr Key walked past.

That wasn’t a good look from Davis. It can be assumed it was deliberate provocation just prior to Question Time in Parliament.

I don’t know what Davis expects Key or the New Zealand Government to do. The Austrlian Government is doing what it wants to do, and no matter how bad a look there is probably little more New Zealand can do about it.

Under questioning by Labour leader Andrew Little, Mr Key went on a furious offensive.

In an angry attack, he said: “Some of the [detainees] are rapists, some of them are child molesters, and some of them are murderers.

“These are the people that the Labour Party are saying are more important to support than New Zealanders who deserve protecting when they come back here.

“Mr Davis, if you want to put yourself on the side of sex offenders, go ahead my son, but we’ll defend New Zealanders.”

When Mr Little questioned why New Zealand did not demand more action from Australia, Mr Key launched another attack.

“You back the rapists,” the Prime Minister said, before being cut off by the Speaker.

Again, what does Little expect Key or the Government to do? They can’t force Australi into doing things differently. It would be like Samoa or Fiji trying to tell New Zealand what to do.

This all sparked a furore in Parliament and on social media. Labolur’s Chris Hipkins tried to pass a mition of no confidence against the speaker for not insisting that Key withdraw and apologise.

I think an apology would be appriopriate from Key but Hipkins didn’t follow correct procedure and that was rejected.

This is likely to rage for a while. More than a few people would do well to pause and consider the whole situation, and what in practical terms can be done about it here.

Key is probably calculating on public support for not doing more to get ex convicts to New Zealand more quickly. The Government only recently proposed how they would deal with New Zedalanders deported back here.

On 3 News in Distant riot causes unrest at home Patrick Gower caused more unrest at home (at least on Twitter):

The Kiwis are known as ‘501s’ after section 501, the hard-line law forcing them out of Australia because of previous criminal convictions.

Now they are trapped while they are processed.

Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull promised the detainees could get out and back to New Zealand “quickly”, though Mr Key today revealed quickly could actually mean weeks.

“What the Labour Party is saying is ‘to hell with the rest of New Zealanders – these people should be put on a commercial aircraft and dispatched to New Zealand’. Well you back the rapists and I’ll back New Zealand,” said Mr Key.

Gower used some fairly strong terms to describe detainees. He gave some details:

Crimes for which New Zealanders are awaiting deportation:

  • Child sex offences (including pornography) – 34
  • Murder (including manslaughter) – 22
  • Rape, sex offences – 16
  • Assault (including grievous bodily harm) – 121
  • Theft, robbery (including armed), breaking and entering – 83
  • Drug offences – 64

The accuracy of these numbers is being disputed on Twitter.

More than a few in New Zealand will be happy to see some of them staying on Christmas Island, something that Key isa probably banking on.

10.11.15 – Question 1 – Andrew Little to the Prime Minister

What action, if any, has he taken to follow up on his statement to Malcolm Turnbull regarding New Zealand-born Australian detainees on Christmas Island, “I think, in the spirit of mateship, there should be some compassion shown”?

Leave a comment

68 Comments

  1. kittycatkin

     /  10th November 2015

    I understood that the people could leave voluntarily rather than waiting to be deported, which puts a rather different complexion on it. But that may be a recent thing.

    Reply
    • No, its always been there. The criminals are told, you are due for release tomorrow (from prison) and then that their visa has been revoked, and they are to be deported. They are also advised of their rights of appeal and of assistance, legal aid etc. If they say we will be appealing, they are then sent to a detention centre as they are illegally in Australia. Initially, they are likely to be held in Villawood or similar detention centre on Australian soil, but due to overcrowding, if their case seems likely to drag on, they are likely to be transferred offshore to a longer term centre. At any time, they can agree to return to their country of origin, and the process ends, they will be returned within weeks.

      Reply
  2. Robby

     /  10th November 2015

    I don’t see this as Labour ‘supporting rapists & pedos’, I see this as Labour trying to help them stay in Australia, which I have no problem with.

    Reply
    • kittycatkin

       /  10th November 2015

      Well, yes-but I don’t suppose that we’d want the Aussie equivalent or rapists, paedophiles and murderers-or thieves, . I don’t like the island treatment, but if they can leave Australia voluntarily, they should-if it’s obvious that they will be deported anyway.

      So Labour are generously trying to make these model citizens able to stay in their new country ? That’s nice of them.

      John Key is in a thankless position. He can’t change Australian law, and rightly so. If he doesn’t try to have better conditions for these people, he’s heartless, if he does, he’s condoning the offences of ‘rapists and paedos’. He can’t win.

      Reply
    • Pete Kane

       /  10th November 2015

      Davis didn’t yell at Key, I watched it, but the crudeness of his language let him down a little. Some of you will think I’m being picky. But finding that truly “Churchillian” quip has evidently proven to be the making of political legend (and at times truly dire circumstances to boot.)

      I thought Mr Gower’s (TV3) comments (refuse to dignify it as a ‘report’) are borderline BSA stuff – and I really mean that.

      Reply
      • kittycatkin

         /  10th November 2015

        I missed them. If you think that-do make a complaint. The worst that can happen is that they will turn it down, and they may not. Patrick Gower seems to think that he can say anything with impunity.

        Reply
  3. kittycatkin

     /  10th November 2015

    Equivalent OF, not or.

    Reply
  4. David

     /  10th November 2015

    It just seems a bit surreal with labour previously bemoaning the provinces being ignored have their only provincial electorate MP fussing about crooks in another country rather than dire circumstances at home. Labours conference coverage on Monday totally disappeared by Davis seemingly inciting a riot overseas wouldn’t have been helpful.
    Now the clowns stamp their feet and run away because Key finally has had enough of being pilloried for something he has no control over being done to people who long ago rejected NZ and are bloody criminals. How dumb are Labour to champion rapists, murderers, etc. etc. who are rightly being deported….it’s like I am on a parallel universe.

    Reply
    • kiwi guy

       /  10th November 2015

      “Davis seemingly inciting a riot”

      Exactly, he rocks on up to Christmas Island and does a PR number, soon after he leaves the NZers start a riot…hmmmm

      Reply
  5. Robby

     /  10th November 2015

    As much as no-one wants these individuals, the best chance of them being rehabilitated is if they have some sort of support network. To throw someone out of a country they have grown up in, just ‘because we can’, isn’t in anyones’ best interests.

    Reply
    • kittycatkin

       /  10th November 2015

      No, but would we want Australian paedophiles here just because they grew up here ? It’s a dilemma that is very hard to solve; whether to return them or keep them. I imagine that few countries would want to keep such people.

      Reply
      • Robby

         /  10th November 2015

        If we are talking about pedos’, they should be met by a lynch mob on release, rather than the police.

        Reply
        • kiwi guy

           /  10th November 2015

          Great, Robby wants to take the law into his own hands and encourages us to do the same.

          Reply
          • Robby

             /  10th November 2015

            I’m sure that the ex-pat child molesters will be glad to know you will be waiting for them at the airport KiwiGuy, with a warm cup of milo and a list of prospective victims

            Reply
            • Sorry, Kiwiguy, and yourself will need to wait in line for Crim greeting and hugging duties, Angry Andy, Kelvin Davis and half of the party of losers have first dibbs to support these crims.

    • kiwi guy

       /  10th November 2015

      They are not Australian citizens. They should have gone through the process like every other law abiding Kiwi who wanted Aussie citizenship did, I guess they were to busy robbing people and stuff.

      Reply
      • Maggy Wassilieff

         /  10th November 2015

        My brother became an Ocker. He said the process wasn’t painful. He doesn’t miss the removed half of his brain, at all.

        Reply
        • it took us a few hours to fill out the forms, a few more getting character references, then verified copies of all official doc’s. the fees, and we were approved a few weeks later. easy as!

          Reply
  6. kiwi guy

     /  10th November 2015

    NZ has weak migration controls, basically all of Polynesia gets a free pass. The Aussies are not interested in NZ being used by foreigners as a stepping stone into Australia.

    The Muliculters here are to blame for Aussie closing the door on easy NZ access to their country.

    Reply
  7. Alan Wilkinson

     /  10th November 2015

    The issues are surely which country produced the problem and where is it likely to be minimised. For those who grew up in Australia and have no family or support in NZ it is hard to see the responsibility or the best hope for reform lying here. Perhaps NZ should just refuse to accept those who left NZ before age 5 unless Australia can show there is good family support here.

    Reply
    • kiwi guy

       /  10th November 2015

      I’m sorry, what has “reform” got to do with it, from the Aussie’s point of view?

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  10th November 2015

        Who cares what Aussies think? If Aussie has the responsibility for growing a kid into a crook why should NZ take on trying to reform or contain him?

        Reply
        • most of “responsibility for growing a kid into a crook” lies with their PARENTS, and Whanau Alan, in this case, their KIWI whanau, oh the irony, send them back. PS just like in NZ, over 50% of these crime up for deportation are Maori, perhaps thats why NZ should take on trying to reform or contain them (NB: Some are female)

          Reply
    • kiwi guy

       /  10th November 2015

      “Perhaps NZ should just refuse to accept those who left NZ before age 5 unless Australia can show there is good family support here.”

      But they are by international law NZ citizens, not Aussie, so you got no choice but to eat that dead rat, Mr Wilkinson.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  10th November 2015

        Citizenship is determined by local law, not international. That is why these people are not Aussie citizens despite having lived their formative and adult years there.

        Reply
        • kiwi guy

           /  10th November 2015

          BS – they were born in NZ, never applied for citizenship anywhere else on the planet.

          They are NZ citizens, NOT Australian.

          If you believe they are Aussie citizens, please where is their documentation?

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  10th November 2015

            BS yourself. Aussie law determines who and how they can apply for citizenship and even whether they have to. Get your head around that.

            Reply
            • kiwi guy

               /  10th November 2015

              ” Aussie law determines who and how they can apply for citizenship”

              Yeah, and it determined they ARE NOT citizens.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  10th November 2015

            Australian law sets out their requirements for permanent resident status for NZers based on skilled immigrant criteria. This prerequisite bars most unskilled immigrants and their children from ever applying for citizenship. Nothing to do with international law.

            Reply
            • kiwi guy

               /  10th November 2015

              Well there you go then , they don’t qualify, so back to NZ, and unfortunately our migration laws are so pathetic we can’t send them back to the islands.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  10th November 2015

              Except they couldn’t be sent back to NZ if we refused to take them and cancelled their citizenship. I bet they don’t have NZ passports.

            • kiwi guy

               /  10th November 2015

              @Wilkinson “Except they couldn’t be sent back to NZ if we refused to take them and cancelled their citizenship. I bet they don’t have NZ passports.”

              Well go then, big shot, make it happen.

            • @Alan – what does a passport have to do with citizenship? You can be a NZ Citizen and never have a passport. A passport a citizen does not make.

              These people are Kiwi citizens by birth and hence when Aussie revokes their residence they are the NZ governments problem..

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  10th November 2015

              If NZ First would support this it could be done. So that would be a negotiating position for the Govt as per Dave1924 below to get the Aussies to take a more nuanced policy.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  10th November 2015

              @Dave1924: ” to re-enter NZ as a citizen of NZ, you must either

              show a valid NZ passport at the border, or
              have a valid Returning Residents Visa in your other passport (issued prior to 29 November 2010 on the basis of New Zealand citizenship under the Immigration Act 1987) until the expiry of the passport in which the RRV is endorsed; or
              have an Endorsement indicating NZ Citizenship in your foreign passport”

              Good luck with getting back in otherwise.

            • thats BS Alan. anyone can apply for citizenship in Aussie, its a bit complex and expensive. to get in, one must show skills, desirability, and a few other criteria, as well as health and wellbeing. I got citizenship easily, one of our staff got citizenship recently, and he is not highly skilled, a basic skilled worker, not a tradesperson, but unlike a lot of Kiwi’s looking at citizenship, he had a solid employment record, he actually worked 2 jobs, and no criminal record at all. It took him almost 12 months, and he used an advisor to assist in preparing his application.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  11th November 2015

              @DaveG, not bs. You do have to have a permanent resident visa and you do have to pass the skills tests to get it.

  8. kiwi guy

     /  10th November 2015

    Key was right on target with what he said.

    The two faced pearl clutching by Cunliffe et al is hilarious.

    Reply
  9. kiwi guy

     /  10th November 2015

    “Well you back the rapists and I’ll back New Zealand,” said Mr Key.”

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  10th November 2015

      How exactly is he backing NZ by letting these people in?

      Reply
      • kiwi guy

         /  10th November 2015

        They are NZs responsiblity.

        They have served their time and must now return to NZ for breaking Aussie law.

        Key is stepping up to the plate.

        You want to weasel out of it by pretending they are Aussie citizens.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  10th November 2015

          If they have been in Australia for most of their lives and in NZ just as an infant, yes, they are Aussies, not Kiwis. Nothing weaseling about that at all.

          Reply
          • traveller

             /  11th November 2015

            Alan, they’re not Australian citizens. Nothing we can do to alter that.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  11th November 2015

              No, but we can revoke their NZ citizenship and leave Aussie to deal with their own problem long-term residents. Of course only for those we deem fair dinkum Aussie trash, not ours.

          • Pete Kane

             /  11th November 2015

            Actually Alan you may get your wish in some cases. Given the nature of the crimes committed by some of the Kiwi detainees I’d bet the farm some of them will be guilty of some vary serious offending during the rioting.
            Be interesting to see the Australians approach to this offending – their soil (and jurisdiction) after all.
            As an aside, it sounds like an appallingly run and understaffed facility.
            Feel sorry for the asylum seekers stuck in there with that lot (or as the Aussies would have it ‘our lot’).

            Reply
            • kittycatkin

               /  11th November 2015

              It would be interesting to see what would happen if people had no citizenship of any country…what will they do ? I can’t see that happening, nice as the thought is when it comes to some people; Can people really be stripped of the citizenship of the country they were born in ?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  11th November 2015

              @kittycat, it has happened before when people lived in airports until some country took them in. But in this case Aussie would be stuck with them as no airline would take them without papers.

    • Robby

       /  10th November 2015

      Stop touching your ‘pussy’ KiwiGuy. Do you want pedos deported here? I guess misery really does like company….

      Reply
      • kiwi guy

         /  10th November 2015

        “Stop touching your ‘pussy’ KiwiGuy”

        Reply
        • Robby

           /  10th November 2015

          And there it is, the response of someone who has all day to search memes on the internet, but who can’t respond intelligently to valid criticism. Get a job KiwiGuy

          Reply
  10. Hmmm… having watched the video of question time – what a storm in a teacup…..

    Some of the people being deported doubtless have minor crimes on their CV, but Aussie sets the rules and Key has asked the Aussies to exercise some compassion for those cases of minor wrongs and the person has a long association with Australia.

    That seems reasonable. And probably some will get to stay

    But Labour have bitten willingly into a rotten apple. Some of those being deported are hard core crims with serious offences on their CV’s – why the hell would Aussie want them to stay if they can deported as they are not Aussie Citizens?? Cuddling rotten stinking hard core crims will not resonate with most Kiwis.

    As to the holding of people in detention centres – some on the Left have cast that as some type of dual punishment. Really? They are in detention centres not prisons, because that is where under Australian law non citizens awaiting deportation are held awaiting the plane ride out of the country. What is Key supposed to do – dispatch the NZ Army to enforce their release???

    For those in detention centres who have minor offences – well they can request a ride home and appeal from NZ. When they hit our soil they will get access to our social welfare system and doubtless legal aid to help them.

    Those who have serious sexual or violence crimes – well NZ needs to make sure we take them back when we have a proper monitoring and support system in place to handle them and keep NZ citizens safe.

    And mixed in will be some who have been wrong grabbed up for deportation – those are the only ones I have any sympathy for.

    As for the theatre of walking out of the chamber – lovely pictures, but totally pointless.

    Keep hugging crims Andy – the smell will wear off them on to you. Fool

    Reply
  11. Budgieboy

     /  10th November 2015

    You know what I love about this whole thing? (forget the Labour vs Key thing)

    In spite of the fact that I think the Aussies are crazy to detain (at HUGE cost) long term residents during the ‘appeals process’ – especially when a large number of those appeals are upheld.

    And in spite of the fact that I don’t think it makes any sense to send people who have effectively been ‘criminalised’ in Australia back to New Zealand where I personally don’t really want them and I know they definitely don’t want to be.

    And yes, in spite of the above I DO believe that Australia is a Sovereign state and can make and police its on laws.

    Do you know what I love? And I mean I really LOVE about this???

    Our bastard media that thinks they run this country ( and lets fact it they do – every issue they choose that beat the drum on over and over and over usually results in a policy or law change)…but our bastard media who have pushed the boat out and are now want to try running Australia are getting the not-so-polite-one fingered salute …and I’m loving it!!!

    The frustration and rage as their impotent ravings are largely ignored has manifested greater than normal Key derangement syndrome but god it’s worth it to see these pricks ignored…as they should be here as well.

    Reply
    • kiwi guy

       /  10th November 2015

      Whether we want them or they want us is irrelevant. The Aussies wont have them, END OF STORY.

      Reply
      • Budgieboy

         /  10th November 2015

        Don’t disagree with you KG, in fact I DO agree with you…the Aussies will kick the worst of them back here (although there are ‘some’ of them winning their appeals).

        My post wasn’t on what would or wouldn’t (or should or shouldn’t) happen. My post was on the media and how they want to dictate to the world us (from their righteous indignation) how the world should be and how it should deliver their every thought hope and desire – almost always from a left wing point of view.

        Average Aussie says go forth and multiply…outstanding!

        Reply
  12. traveller

     /  10th November 2015

    The left can posture like peacocks, but at the water cooler Joe and Jane aren’t on the side of criminals. They can talk victimisation and human rights but the detainees are generally creatures to whom giving a stuff about the human rights of others is not paramount. On top of that they were never concerned enough about Australia to pursue citizenship, so they’re Kiwis… Australia wants them gone and why not ?
    Davis made himself look like a crim-hugging, self centred fool. Just because the usual media suspects wet themselves (hello gasping Katie Bradford) and her mate Silent T is feeling emboldened enough to finally come in from the cold, I’m not seeeing a poll leap in it.

    Reply
    • kiwi guy

       /  10th November 2015

      I lived in Australia and kept my nose clean, I even walked away from situations where I could have rightly defended myself with physical force – just so as to not risk a run in with the law.

      Reply
      • Robby

         /  10th November 2015

        Judging solely by your ‘interactions’ here KIwiGuy, I’m guessing that you encountered more than a few ‘situations’ in Australia LOL

        Reply
  13. Back to comment on this, as there is a lot of incorrect info out there. Firstly the opening part from PeteG “The ex criminals,…….. doesn’t look flash, and it isn’t. Retained without any charges remote from any possible contact with family or lawyers looks crap, and with Australias convict past they should know better and treat people better, regardless of their background”.

    Doesn’t look flash, it IS a low security Flash facility. NEW, Air Conditioned, sports facilities, medical facilities, Tennis courts, kitchens, and FOOD, far more than the reports from Liebour supporters say. (see links and video below)

    Retained without charges, incorrect. These crims have all served at least a year in Jail, and at release time are informed their Visa’s are revoked, and they will be held in an immigration centre until they are deported, or if they appeal, until it is successful. they know what is going on, and are informed, Australia follows international protocols.

    Remote, yes it is remote, almost east of Darwin, and south of Singapore, however, good phone and email communications, all detainees get phone / email access.

    All detainees get legal aid, and access to lawyers.

    Some more facts for good measure. Kelvin is moaning about the conditions on Christmas island, yet the facilities are outstanding. The complex is new and modern, or at least was prior to these kiwi crims wrecking it. BUT, the complex is run by SERCO, the same company Kelvin Davis complained about who run Mt Eden. Surprisingly, just like in NZ, Kelvin is not complaining about the other centers such as Nauru run by Wilson Security (Transfield Services) or many more, where Kiwis are also held. Both Nauru and Christmas island are built and run to the SAME standards. (Friends are FIFO workers on Christmas island, one also worked on Nauru)

    The BS and inaccuracies being bandied around by Kelvin Davis and the Labour party is astounding, and i suggest Kelvin does not visit Canberra any time soon, i would bet a dollar he was involved in organizing the riots, or knew they were planned and supported them.

    It boils down to this, Australia vigorously defends its borders, and does not allow criminals in, or to remain here. Commit a serious crime, and unless you are a citizen you will be sent away, of course Aussie allows appeals etc, and provides free food and lodgings. lets not forget, the kiwi crims can leave the detention centre at any time by agreeing to go back to their country of origin.

    I strongly suggest people see the links below and google Christmas Island detention centre widely, as well as Nauru detention centre. Wiki has good info.

    Several Links, strongly recommend the video in the Huffington Post article. Note the facilities, air con units etc, hardly seems tough.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/201

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com….

    Reply
  14. Pete Kane

     /  11th November 2015

    Labour (and Little) need to tread very carefully here. Without doubt and regrettably, some of those returning will continue with egregious offending – that’s simply the nature of the beast. Let’s also remember that any convicted of murder (and applies in both jurisdictions), receive a mandatory Life Sentence and are permanently subject to recall.
    These are not simple matters. (I suspect there’s candles burning at Justice as we ‘speak’ to get some sort of overarching, and still probably only interim, legislation drafted.)
    This would undoubtedly require urgency if before Christmas, which again is always potentially problematic for the Government (and may account for Key floating the months’ delay line – arguing issues such as documentation, health issues etc).
    So as I say high stakes for both sides and Labour should be cautious on this one. By its nature, and the law, it’s National’s problem as the incumbent. Labour would be wise to leave it with them.
    PS Already reports of serious violence by ‘kiwis” against asylum seekers.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/73902227/christmas-island-detainees-living-in-fear-as-kiwis-bash-weaker-inmates

    Reply
    • “Without doubt and regrettably, some of those returning will continue with egregious offending.”

      So let’s treat them like dogs, let’s beat the crap out of them, let’s take them away from their families, let’s take them away from where they’ve lived for years.
      Then we’ll throw them somewhere in New Zealand and expect them to be totally civilised. Let’s expect them to roll up bright eyed and bushy tailed to would-be employers to get the many available jobs.
      So are some likely to continue egregious offending? And how about the ones who have no history of egregious offending?

      Reply

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