Pointless TPPA poll

3 News released a Reid Research poll on the TPPA tonight (presumably they wil drip feed minor results until the party poll on Sunday night).

  • Against TPPA 52%
  • For TPPA 34%
  • Don’t know 14%

The report said that the Government had a lot of work to do to get the public on side. What tosh. The Government has done all the work, now they need to go through the formalities in Parliament, hope all the other countries confirm they are in, and it will happen.

The public will probably have forgotten about it by the election in 2017, or hardly care about it.

Against votes per party:

  • National 23%
  • Labour 73%
  • Greens 84%
  • NZ First 87%

A bit of surprise to see NZ First voters least in favour. Perhaps they don’t care much for trade as long as their zimmer frames keep coming in from China. Or they may have been more concerned about drug costs.

 

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56 Comments

  1. Alan Wilkinson

     /  20th November 2015

    Considering NZF are clueless enough to take Winston seriously their daft opinions are hardly surprising.

    Reply
    • Robby

       /  20th November 2015

      Why do you dislike Winston so much Alan?

      Reply
      • kittycatkin

         /  20th November 2015

        I can’t answer for Alan, but I dislike him because he’s an attention-seeking racist. His groupies are so sychophantic that they’d bray mindlessly at anything he said which he indicated was a joke-look at the way they cackled at the two Wongs not making a White ‘joke’. If he said it was a fine day, they’d fall off their seats laughing if he did. They obviously haven’t the sense to realise that without China we would still be paying the enormous amounts that they once had to for appliances and other things, I am very happy with my Chinese made handbags in every colour imaginable and my nice cheap Chinese undies and other garments.

        Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  20th November 2015

        Because he is far too smart to believe the nonsense he spouts to his gullibles. It is so pitiful to watch. He is so outrageously self-serving without the slightest conscience.

        Which are pretty much the same reasons as every journalist and politician that knows him would give.

        Reply
        • Robby

           /  20th November 2015

          Who said he believed it Alan? As an electorate MP in Tauranga, he certainly got attention paid to local issues, which is why NZF gets a much higher % of the party vote here than anywhere else. He could have very easily ‘played dirty’ in the Northland bi-election, but didn’t, and still won. I enjoy his performances in the house. “The curtains don’t match the carpet”…. Gold!

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  20th November 2015

            He didn’t need to play dirty in Northland because the Left did it for him. And he is much, much smarter than them as they now dimly realise what they did.

            His followers think he believes what he tells them. He performs but rarely delivers except for himself.

            Reply
            • Robby

               /  20th November 2015

              Northland was a clean win. No-one played dirty there, but they could have done it easily using PP… IMHO Winston represented a good use of a vote up there, a message was sent, even if National still aren’t listening……

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th November 2015

              I live in Northland, Robby. Social media was full of Lefty dirt throwing during the election – all aimed for Winston’s benefit.

              The outcome was disastrous for NZ and Northland. It has stymied RMA reform and cost the country billions.

            • Robby

               /  20th November 2015

              BS Alan, the Nats still have a majority (only just tho’)

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  20th November 2015

              Ignorance, Robby. They don’t have a majority for RMA reform.

            • Robby

               /  20th November 2015

              Well that’s obviously not Winstons’ fault then, is it???

            • jamie

               /  20th November 2015

              Can you give an example of “throwing dirt”, Alan? I don’t think Mike Sabin throwing shit all over himself counts.

            • No, it’s the gullibles who voted for him in the delusion they were sending the Government a free message – and the further cargo cult belief he would bring them free riches. Pathetically stupid.

            • Go on FB and read the rants about Key, Sabin and everything else from TPP to deep sea oil. Frothing lunacy.

            • jamie

               /  20th November 2015

              So the “dirt” is people talking about issues that concern them?

  2. And into the lion’s den …. An unusual and surprisingly derogatory topic ‘essay’ begins this, denigrating both the New Zealand public and by implication, the elderly as being NZF voters. TPP certainly has strong proponents and opponents alike. This from DomPost, 15 July 2015, “We are senior medical specialists deeply concerned about the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). Nobel Laureate economists and broad groups of national and international health and legal experts, climate scientists, international human rights experts, and civil society are also concerned … Tim Grosser labelled us all “politically irrelevant””.

    It’s a bit like Flouride, this debate. TPP simply must be good for us, right? No question.
    And yet a whole lot of people have questions about it.

    I don’t think it was so terrible having those appliances assembled in New Zealand, or having healthy shopping hearts in our communities rather than dislocated “drive-to” big red sheds. I don’t think it was so terrible Kiwis having higher wages, high employment and paying something approaching the ‘real cost’ of consumer products: The cost with, for instance, a humane labour component? With some account for the pollution involved in shipping? Packaging? “It was all dependent on borrowing” I hear you cry, like we don’t have high borrowing now?

    And then there’s my gut feeling, my intuition, expressed on Herald/Labour that somewhere in here is an issue akin to “No taxation without representation”. Global markets and global free trade calls for global government in some form; to some degree; in the relevant areas.
    I haven’t worked out the wording yet, something along the lines of, “No trade imposition without representation”. Because it’s hardly free trade at all, is it? The big guns retain their protections. The corporates impose theirs.

    Ultimately the proof of the pudding will be in the eating now, since I’ve been forced to buy it.

    It seems as though the centre-right is automatically assumed to be representative and right but if something is so-called “left” (anything other than centre-right?) it is automatically discounted as being wrong and unrepresentative of the population. Perhaps that’s just the assumption by most here on YourNZ? At the last election the National Party obtained 47% of votes cast by 76.77% of enrolled voters. I can’t argue that they didn’t have a mandate to proceed with TPP but it certainly isn’t one from the majority of the population. I can say just as easily as any conservative or so-called ‘liberal’, “they don’t represent me”!
    That’s MMP politics I guess.

    Reply
    • Robby

       /  20th November 2015

      Touche’ PartisanZ, well put

      Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  20th November 2015

      Simple question: Do you believe in free trade and if not, why not.

      Then we will know if you are criticising the TPPA because it enhances free trade or reduces it.

      Reply
      • Robby

         /  20th November 2015

        Yes Alan, but not at the expense of our sovereign rights

        Reply
          • Robby

             /  20th November 2015

            Thanks Alan, will have a look

            Reply
            • Robby

               /  20th November 2015

              Good read Alan, wouldn’t have picked you as a fan of emotive language….
              “One such truth, which this paper seeks to distill from the vacuous, anti-capitalist hyperventilation surrounding the trade agenda, is that the so-called Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) mechanism, which enables foreign investors to sue host governments in third-party arbitration tribunals for treatment that allegedly fails to meet certain standards and that results in a loss of asset values, is an unnecessary, unreasonable, and unwise provision to include in trade agreements. ”
              Obviously, I agree completely, the ISDS mechanism is why I think the TPPA is not in NZ’s best interests. The fact that negotiations are done in secret was what made me suspicious in the first place though…

        • insider

           /  20th November 2015

          Really? So we should withdraw from the WTO? How about The UN? Probably don’t want to be in the IMF either, or the IPU or the ITU. And we’d best pull out of the convention of the law of the sea and the Antarctic Treaty, because they all impinge on our sovereignty

          Reply
          • Ah, Prof Jane Kelsey has an interesting opinion on this, which may or may not be fact, I do not know. Discussing TTiP, Herald, 5 Nov, she says,
            “These negotiations are intimately related. Known as mega-regionals, the world’s declining but still powerful superpowers are trying to consolidate new global rules that entrench and advance their economic interests.
            In doing so, they will bypass the World Trade Organisation, where similar proposals have been blocked by the newly ascendant Brics bloc – Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa. The game plan is to import the new rules back into the WTO.”
            BRICS bloc countries are notably absent from TPP, TTiP and another, TiSA (I think? specifically about “global” investment).
            So “Free Trade” is free trade between certain nations. Qualified free trade. Regulated free trade or, in other words, not free trade at all.
            Genuine free trade might, for all we know, result in the much advanced benefits propounded ad nauseum (sic) by Rothbardians and other Free Economy proponents? Or it might result in the total global economic domination of China and India?

            Reply
            • insider

               /  21st November 2015

              I’ve seen her claim this too and it’s an interesting opinion but only that. Who knows what goes on in the minds of great powers. For us we want better access to multiple big markets. That’s what we’ve got. It’s not perfect but not awful.

      • Too big a question to answer here and now Alan, but a good question. Suffice to say right now I don’t know exactly what “free trade” means. I suspect it does not mean trade freedom.
        Even I know that TPP criticism goes a long way beyond enhancing or reducing so-called free trade. Check out the list of emminent people/professions in my first paragraph above.
        Finally for tonight; it’s a good question but it is a bit like the question, “Do you believe in God or not and if not why not?” or “Justify not being a Christian?” The assumption is, you question me from on high. I might ask: Do you believe in social justice or environmental responsibility and if not, why not? I’ll get back to you on it though.
        Good night.

        Reply
        • I’m not questioning you from on high, I’m questioning your relevant basic assumptions on the issue you chose to debate. I’ll wait for the answer.

          Reply
      • Zedd

         /  20th November 2015

        @AW
        Free trade for who ? the wealthy corporates that tick the boxes & join the TPPA club. I hear that small farmers will be blocked from saving & trading seeds & will be forced to buy only the ones being sold by those sanctioned companies under the TPPA.
        I also hear that similar rules will apply to medicines too ?
        This is part of the NWO.. control the food supply etc. & you control the people too ! 😦

        Reply
        • You had better answer that question too.

          Reply
        • insider

           /  20th November 2015

          You hear wrong then.

          Reply
          • Robby

             /  20th November 2015

            Care to elaborate, ‘insider’???

            Reply
            • insider

               /  20th November 2015

              There’s nothing in the TPP that forces anyone to buy anything, just like CER didn’t force us to buy anything from Australia and the ftas with china and Korea and Singapore didn’t force us to buy from them

            • Robby

               /  20th November 2015

              So what are you thoughts on the ISDS provisions ‘insider’??? Completely innocent, like yourself??

            • insider

               /  21st November 2015

              Do you think NZ companies would get a fair go in a US court? Or a Viet Nam one? How did we manage to get apples into Australia? How are we fighting beef barriers in Indonesia? We’ve never had a problem with them. A bit like the law: if you don’t break it you don’t have a lot to worry about.

            • Robby

               /  21st November 2015

              Hey Pete, as much as I hate to use a phrase from them, looks like I just ‘got a nigger out of the woodpile’. And I didn’t even set it on fire first….

            • insider

               /  21st November 2015

              Looks like my fears re your paranoia weren’t understated.weird

            • Robby

               /  21st November 2015

              No, and no. As for your last point, I have nothing to worry about. Do you??? 😉

            • insider

               /  21st November 2015

              I could have used a spying analogy but I thought that might have made you really paranoid

            • Robby

               /  21st November 2015

              It wouldn’t have, because you and your mates are about as useful on the internet as a snatch full of snow is in real life. GFY

        • jaspa

           /  21st November 2015

          @ Zedd

          http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/cropping/73024295/plant-breeders-refute-doomsayer-talk-about-farmsaved-seed

          “Green Party criticism that trade talks will halt farmers from saving seed from their crops is incorrect, say plant breeders.

          The NZ Plant Breeding and Research Association (PBRA) has responded to a Green Party statement that leaked documents from the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) talks show that farmers will be stopped from saving some seed from their crops to grow again and may face other restrictions.

          Plant breeding leaders say the “doomsayer” comments by the Greens about saved seed was misinformed.

          PBRA president Tom Bruynel said there was no intent at all by the seed industry to get rid of farmer-saved seed.”

          Reply
    • So… you believe that the Japanese disassembling televisions and sending the parts to us so we could reassemble them in a factory in NZ was a stellar idea and made perfect economic sense?

      Aw hell no. It’s literally more efficient to have those people on the dole than wasting their time making televisions more expensive for the rest of us.

      We have free trade because the Japanese are awesome at making electronic goods and we are terrible at it, but we are great at farming sheep and they are terrible at that. So rather than subsidising something we are both terrible at, we sell them wool and they sell us Playstations. Because that’s what we both do best.

      Reply
      • jamie

         /  21st November 2015

        What you are describing are the benefits of trade and specialisation in a very general sense. You won’t find many people who disagree, in general.

        That simple description does not, however, make a case for the particular benefits of any particular terms of trade.

        You probably wouldn’t buy a car on the basis that ‘travelling by wheeled vehicle is generally more efficient than crawling on your belly.’ For one thing the car might be a lemon. Or it might be unsuited to your specific needs. For another, no one is suggesting crawling as an alternative.

        “It’s literally more efficient to have those people on the dole”

        On a strictly financial basis, probably. But even then only on a very short time scale.

        Reply
        • *You probably wouldn’t buy a car on the basis that ‘travelling by wheeled vehicle is generally more efficient than crawling on your belly.’ *

          You’re describing something nobody does as opposed to my description of a real practice that occurred in New Zealand in the 1980s. People buy cars because they are more efficient than walking, bicycling, or horseback.

          And no, you are wrong. Aside from any personal self esteem benefit garnered from having a “job”, it’s much cheaper to just stick those people on the dole forever. And fortunately, most people are resourceful, and will find other jobs, ones that aren’t subsidised or protected by unnecessary tariffs.

          In terms of the specifics of a trade agreement, there is no restriction on trade, whether subsidy or tariff, that provides a net benefit to a country, except perhaps as a bargaining chip in convincing other countries to drop their own subsidies and tariffs. The best trade is free trade, no exceptions.

          Reply
  3. Its a bit of an odd agreement when there is widespread opposition in most of the countries, even in the USA, it is merely a trading block to contain the rise of China. (too late)

    Reply
    • Nonsense. Why on earth would we want to contain the rise of one of our main trading partners?

      Reply
      • “Why on earth would we want to contain the rise of one of our main trading partners?”
        As in Hamlet, this is the question. It is not a rhetorical question.
        There genuinely is a subject there worthy of considerable investigation.
        Interesting thing “containment” …
        Having thought about it Alan, I don’t need to answer the question “do you believe in free trade or not and if not why not?” because that ISN’T the issue I chose to debate. The issue is TPP, a mega-regional ‘pact’, as in “Pointless TPPA poll”.
        However, I’m interested in answering the question and will do so in time. Got research to do.
        Nor does Zedd need to answer it because he did answer it, he said, “Free trade for who?”
        The interim answer MUST BE a question.

        Reply
  4. Zedd

     /  20th November 2015

    Its interesting that 23% of Nats. are opposed to TPPA.. likely the ones who have actually looked into it, rather than just blindly following the ‘majority’ (ie whatever Key tells them to do) :/

    Reply
  5. love these polls….. people whip up a frenzy and get everyone talking about ISDS clauses etc. I see this type of thing on FB all the time, when you ask the person posting what say an ISDS is they don’t know, they just know they are against them because a friend of a friend said they were eviiiiiiiillll…..

    Reply
  6. Zedd

     /  21st November 2015

    I saw a news story on Al Jazeera.. local farmers in South American countries (part of TPPA) are saying they too will be affected by control of seed sales. They have local seed savers/distributors groups. One man said that under the TPPA there are concerns that this will be blocked, by ‘free trade regulations’ only allowing large corporate distributors to legally operate ? 😦

    The polls maybe ‘pointless’ BUT the concerns are not !!

    Reply
    • jaspa

       /  21st November 2015

      @ Zedd,

      Have you read the link I posted above? Or try http://itsourfuture.org.nz/farmer-saved-seed-to-be-retained/

      “The TPP requirement for NZ to be compliant with the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants 1991 (UPOV91) means farmers will still be able to retain seed for sowing for their own private use on their own farm. On protected varieties the terms of purchase will provide that a small royalty be paid to the seed breeder.”

      Reply

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