Open Forum – Monday

23 November 2015

This post is open to anyone to comment on any topic that isn’t spam, illegal or offensive. All Your NZ posts are open but this one is to encourage you to raise topics that interest you. 

Comments worth more exposure may be repeated as posts.

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44 Comments

  1. jaspa

     /  23rd November 2015

    So Andrew Little is heading to Australia to kick up a fuss about our “rights” there.

    “One case referred to me, a man had a brain tumour, then was not entitled to a sickness benefit. He got health treatment, because that is reciprocal, but…he actually wasn’t in a position to travel back to New Zealand because of his sickness.”

    Perhaps he has forgotten, or nobody has advised him, that there is no such thing as a sickness benefit in NZ any more. Wouldn’t it be a better idea to champion the cause of sick people here that have not chosen to leave the country?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11549500

    Reply
    • Pete Kane

       /  23rd November 2015

      Good Morning Jaspa – gosh you’re straight onto the ball early. Probably yes. Well first priority anyway. Mind you, it was the vote of expat Kiwis in Australia. particularly Sydney (and London also), that saw the Greens scrape over the 5% in 99. Really not too much in any race these days – maybe also in his mind.

      Reply
      • jaspa

         /  23rd November 2015

        Haha, yeah, we get up early here, and I must be turning into my Dad, whose goal it was to have the entire Herald read and cryptic crossword completed by 6am.

        Reply
        • jaspa

           /  23rd November 2015

          Lol, even that got downvoted. Somebody doesn’t like me, or the memory of my Dad 😦

          Reply
          • kittycatkin

             /  23rd November 2015

            Or someone was appalled at this thought !!! No, it wasn’t me, appalling though I find the thought of doing that. 6 am ! Are you serious ? I love cryptic crosswords, but not at that hour.

            Someone seems to go down the page giving everything on it the thumbs down. It might be possible to work out who it is, unless they do it to their own as a disguise.

            Reply
    • Your kick-off went into touch on the full I reckon. Goff is going, Little accompanying him.
      I don’t see the harm in championing the cause of sick New Zealanders everywhere.
      Going to Australia doesn’t exclude Goff and Little advocating for the welfare of New Zealanders at home. What’s wrong with doing both?
      The former sickness benefit in New Zealand is now called Supported Living. It’s been re-branded.
      Expat Kiwis domiciled in almost every nation on earth exercise their democratic right to vote in NZ’s general elections under our MMP system – arguably fairly representative of the electorate. We seem to respect expats unless they’re ill, unemployed or convicted criminals. I guess we want the “good”, healthy ones back one day?
      We all know John Key doesn’t lobby for National every moment he’s overseas.
      Tea isn’t poisonous unless you slip arsenic into it.

      Reply
      • jaspa

         /  23rd November 2015

        As far as I can ascertain, the Supported Living Payment is not the same as the former sickness benefit. The Work and Income site states “Sickness Benefit was replaced by Jobseeker Support on 15 July 2013.”.

        Anyway, that is beside the point. I haven’t heard Andrew Little utter a word about sick beneficiaries here.

        As usual, Labour seem to confuse “rights” and “privileges”.

        Reply
        • Yes, you may be correct. Jobseeker Support, unavailable for work on medical grounds may = Sickness Benefit. Supported Living = Invalids Benefit I think?
          Doesn’t change the “re-branding”.
          Not beside the point at all Jaspa. The fact you haven’t heard Little advocate for sick beneficiaries here DOES NOT mean he hasn’t done it. It means you haven’t heard.
          The absence of proof for Big Bang does not THEREFORE prove the existence of a Creator AT ALL. It ‘allows for’ that possibility, along with the possibility “we just don’t know yet” and a myriad others.
          Of rights and privileges, benefits seem a tad more like rights to me, since we actually call them “entitlements” and we have agreed to this (in our partial and strange democratic way)

          Reply
          • jaspa

             /  23rd November 2015

            Seriously? You see benefits as “entitlements” ???

            Reply
            • No, I did not say that. I see them as more like AGREED rights than privileges because we officially call them “entitlements”. Your right to own property in the soil is an agreed right or entitlement. It has been confered by the State using means which would, if used in the life of the individual, be termed robbery, blackmail or fraud. To speak here of property as one does an article of use is to renounce thought. Some collective cultures might call it an exceptional privilege given the very idea of the land as individual property is almost unbelievable to them.

            • jaspa

               /  23rd November 2015

              My right to use the soil I have a legal agreement for is has nothing to do with the notion that I should be able to head to Australia and ask that government (or should I say the taxpayers of that country) to assist me financially.

            • kittycatkin

               /  23rd November 2015

              It seems hard that someone should have to pay taxes but not have anything much from these. Of course, as even I know that, anyone going there would and anyone working there will know it. If people are prepared to pay taxes and have nothing much in exchange, fair enough.

              Taxes don’t really cover one’s health costs. When I was a trainee nurse back in coff-coff, we were told that it cost more or less the equivalent of the average wage for a week to keep someone in a hospital bed for a day-and things like surgery were, I think, on top of that.That won’t have changed much, I imagine, It was estimated that after I was in a hit and run that it would have cost at least $100,000 for my stay in hospital and surgery and the rest. It would have taken 500 years for my ACC levies to pay that back.

              I couldn’t begin to guess what it cost the taxpayer for my husband’s final illness.

            • Trying to clarify my position on rights, privileges and entitlements using a comparison is all. KCK raises interesting points. Surely one either pays tax and receives redistribution in the destination country or from one’s country of origin my reciprocal agreement? How come Kiwis in Aussie are floating in this vacuum? Expats in England get National Health don’t they? Aussies working in NZ surely use our Health System? Anyhow, Jaspa, you’re still defending your original position which to me is like a doctor triaging two minor injury patients on a quiet night in the ED – “treat him, leave him” – when he could easily treat both of them simultaneously.

            • jaspa

               /  23rd November 2015

              @ kittycatkin

              I have heard that chemo treatment can cost in the hundreds of thousands, per round. When my husband died, it was in South Africa, where there can’t realistically be help available due to the size of the population. So he literally rotted in a bed (cause of death was sepsis from bedsores) and I couldn’t do enough about it as I had to be at work full time and the nurses there refused to touch him. The matron there actually told me “the nurses won’t touch him” and I never found out whether it was because he was white, or because of the epilepsy he was experiencing. But it is quite simple there – no work = no money. It’s quite a different environment, when there is no expectation of entitlement.

              Anyway, I am going a bit off-topic here but thanks for reading.

  2. Pete Kane

     /  23rd November 2015

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/Electoral-Commission-warns-Kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers

    I would say you either have a prohibition or you don’t. If the latter, generally, I would say, offer an opinion rather than a warning.

    Although once again with not only electoral law but our politics in general, we see how the immediacy of the internet heightens difficulties of any unforeseen ‘issues’.

    Reply
  3. kiwi guy

     /  23rd November 2015

    Reply
    • Mefrostate

       /  23rd November 2015

      Terrible analogy. Firstly because the probability that any given refugee will directly lead to the death of you or one of your compatriots is much, much lower than 0.1%. Secondly, worth noting that none of the 13/15 terrorists were refugees. Thirdly, because humans happily accept a certain level of life-threatening risk every day as we go about our business (driving a car, anyone?).

      Refugee policy is a complex ethical and geopolitical issue. Your analogy mostly just demonstrates your own willingness to promote ignorance in order to support your own views.

      Reply
      • kiwi guy

         /  23rd November 2015

        You three points don’t hold up at all, unsurprisingly, as they are designed to rationalise your own blind devotion to mass immigration into the West because “Diversity” and “Multiculturalism” and “Smashing White Supremism” or whatever flaky Progressive principle you cherish.

        The actual ratio does not matter -after all when it becomes known if even a single product may have been tampered with, ENTIRE lines are withdrawn from shelves.

        If ONE M&M was known to be contaminated, millions if not billions of M&Ms would be pulled of shelves immediately.

        At least one of the terrorists in the recent Paris strike came in with the refugees:

        ” ‘Ahmad Al Mohammad’ – died in suicide bomb at Stade de France

        The real name of the suicide bomber apparently carrying a fake Syrian passport when he detonated at the Stade de France remains a mystery, but officials say he entered Europe as an asylum seeker less than two months earlier.

        The counterfeit document bearing the name ‘Ahmad al Mohammad’ was found alongside the body, whose fingerprints match a man using the name to enter Greece in early October. ”

        That is one poisoned M&M right there that YOU and your crowd forced as to swallow because of your FEEL FEELS about illegal migrants.

        Your car example is a FAIL.

        Cars are extremely useful, without them we would not enjoy our current standard of living, we would still be walking or riding mules to market to sell goat skins, they provide us with massive advantages.

        Refugees don’t.

        Reply
        • Mefrostate

           /  23rd November 2015

          I haven’t personally made any arguments along the lines of “flaky progressive principles”. All I have done is call you out for making flaky arguments of your own.

          I’d also ask that you lay off the comments about “me and my crowd”. I’ve pointed out to you before that I’m an individual expressing only my own views, and that I am not a member of any such group. Again, I believe that you have allowed yourself to develop a sense that anybody with different views to your own must be part of a group trying to push their ideals on the rest of society (as if you don’t do the exact same). This is the definition of a persecution complex.

          I am glad that you’re actually making actual arguments now, so let’s discuss them.

          Your first point seems to be that if even one of the roughly 4 million Syrian refugees was a terrorist, that we should then decline to accept any of the remaining 3,999,999? If this is indeed your opinion, then my next question is whether you would still agree even if refusing to accept those refugees would directly lead to their deaths?

          These views are, in my view, morally reprehensible, because they lead to the conclusion that it is acceptable to decline assistance to a human being purely due to their membership of a wider group which contains one bad M&M (be that Syrian, Muslim, Jew, black, etc).

          Further to this point, I would challenge you to find me any comparable group that does not contain a single bad M&M.

          Regarding Ahmad al Mohammad, I admit that there is a high likelihood that he is indeed a Syrian national, and withdraw my previous comment that none of the 13/15 terrorists were a Syrian.

          Finally, you make some points about cars which indicate that you understand the concept of making the trade-off between risks and advantages. Allow me to eschew any ideas of multiculturalism and diversity (since you seem so opposed to these concepts) and instead argue simply that providing asylum to refugees does actually create a huge amount of benefit for the individuals involved. I apologise if you don’t derive any personal value from this, and hope that you never find yourself to be a refugee.

          Reply
    • The theme is set perhaps? Let “poison” be the topic of the day.
      Your M&Ms analogy: Deal with it mate, like we deal with issues such as –
      Of 10,000 citizens how many are criminals, including White Collar?
      What percentage of politicians are corrupt?
      Of 10,000 Christians how many are sociopathic survivalists?
      Of 10,000 Yankees how many are lynching Klan members?
      I mustn’t be relativist. It’s just that relatively speaking, poison exists in the world, YES IT DOES, I agree with you; and poison exists in our hearts too.
      I freely admit, I suffer terribly from this, “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own …” JC.

      Reply
      • kiwi guy

         /  23rd November 2015

        You are missing the point completely:

        You are letting these “refugees” into the West. it is a risk you demand we all take on.

        They can be based close to Syria, in neighbouring countries and return as soon as the all clear is given.

        Reply
        • Mefrostate

           /  23rd November 2015

          And tell me, kiwi guy, how exactly was your M&M analogy making these points?

          Reply
          • kiwi guy

             /  23rd November 2015

            “Of 10,000 Christians how many are sociopathic survivalists?”

            We are not importing millions of Christians into the West.

            “Of 10,000 Yankees how many are lynching Klan members?”

            We are not importing millions of Yankees into the West.

            Get it yet?

            Reply
            • Mefrostate

               /  23rd November 2015

              If we did have millions of Christians, or millions of Yankees, seeking refuge, would you have us decline them also?

        • Trouble is their fellow brotherhood don’t want them either.

          Refugee intake for UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and Qatar:

          0

          Reply
    • Timoti

       /  23rd November 2015

      You forgot to mention the silent percentage of Muslims who support the aspirations of terrorists.. What about the others Muslims who practice ” Jihad by the womb’. Very effective. Here is how it works:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pzGZkps49Q. Don’t you just love the nice lady on the podium telling it like it is.

      I know of few countries who would accept refugees from a religion/culture/country who have members of said country declaring war on them. No refugees, less problems. Just ask the rich Arab Nations who are taking ZERO refugees. Huh, but they are Muslims??!!!

      Reply
      • kiwi guy

         /  23rd November 2015

        Exactly!

        But Mefrostate and his pro migrant mates are deafeningly silent on that subject for obvious reasons.

        Reply
      • Okay, it’s gonna get heated, I accept that. For heaven’s sake Timoti, ye of morphing identity. No longer young? Older but none the wiser? A silent percentage is, by definition, an unknown, unknowable proportionate amount. Therefore, self-evidently, the only way to prevent an unknown number of sympathisers joining the throng is to prevent the entire throng from entering.
        It’s not a fabulous comparison, I’ll credit you, but prior to WW2 we accepted Jewish, Christian and secular refugees from Germany. We might have got some Nazi infilrators as well? They certainly infiltrated other nations at the time.
        KG, based on what I say, to automatically assume I am pro open-slather, mass migration, “smashing white supremacy” and even “flaky progressivism” is the logic of bear-baiting and Nuremburg rallies. “There’s the commie!” This is simply not the case.
        Here’s an exaggerated (for effect) summation of contrary arguments you won’t like and I’m glad –
        “No State has any moral right to withhold from settlement by others without sufficient land, areas it does not in the early future need for itself. Conversely, every group of human beings has the natural right to live on its own soil as a free, self-governing community”. (Warner, again. Good pseudonym eh? He, along with Arnold Toynbee, foresaw all this).
        PartisanZ – “Here’s one for the candle, that lights you to bed;
        and one for the sword, that hangs over your head”
        – Harp Tree Lament, Baron Von Tollbooth & the Chrome Nun, circa ’68

        Reply
  4. Joe Bloggs

     /  23rd November 2015

    I see Colonial Viper across at The Standard has put up a post advising that the Anderson’s Bay Peninsula Branch of the Labour Party has ‘gone into recess’ with all officers and LEC delegates resigning their positions in an expression of deep dissatisfaction at the performance and direction of the Labour Party.

    How long before the whole party splits asunder, I wonder…

    http://thestandard.org.nz/abp-branch-of-labour-goes-into-recess-all-branch-officers-resign/

    Reply
    • CV/Tat is quite entertaining in his sniping at the Labour Loyalists on TS …. no fight like a fight between family

      Reply
      • Loki

         /  23rd November 2015

        Tat Loo is a true believer.
        A frothing loon who wants nothing less than NZ to become a Stalinist hell hole. How disappointing he has fallen out with Labour. One less vote repellant drongo.

        Reply
        • Joe Bloggs

           /  23rd November 2015

          Yup, seems as mad as a cut snake at times… still he’s not the only one to resign from ABPLabour – there’s a few other cut snakes down there frothing at the fangs by the sound of his post on TS

          Reply
  5. Alan Wilkinson

     /  23rd November 2015

    I flicked the Herald website up on my phone this morning and saw the usual litany of Lefty whinging headlines punctuated by the latest crashes and crimes. As I went out the door I wondered who still reads that stuff. It seems to get more irrelevant by the day.

    As for Stuff itself, it long ago deteriorated to 80% fluff, 15% Australian news and the occasional interesting piece. How long can these dinosaurs survive?

    Reply
  6. blazer

     /  23rd November 2015

    amazing how supporters of the left and the right attribute bias shown by the MSM.I guess it proves that the MSM is either actually impartial or that biased perception is reality.

    Reply
      • jamie

         /  24th November 2015

        That data doesn’t tell us anything about left vs right at all. It’s just counting positive Nat vs negative Nat.

        When, for example, Fran O’Sullivan criticizes National, she’s probably not complaining that they’re too far to the right.

        Possibly useful information for the National party’s pollster but not very useful to anyone else.

        Reply
    • jamie

       /  24th November 2015

      “I guess it proves that the MSM is either actually impartial or that biased perception is reality.”

      It might prove that a lot of the media are just a pack of trolls who are equally good at trolling the left and the right 😉

      Reply
  7. How satisfying is it to be a reporter who reports about what are reportedly reports?

    Headline: “Toddler dies after being hit by golf club: reports”

    Body: “A toddler has died in a Christchurch suburb, reportedly after being hit by a golf club.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11549823

    Reply
    • kittycatkin

       /  23rd November 2015

      This is like one of those word games. ‘Punctuate ‘Tom where Joe had had had had had had had had had had had more success with the examiner.’ ;

      Reply
  8. Jaspa, that’s a powerful story back there about your husband in South Africa. Makes me want us to do everything possible to keep NZ’s health system as strong and compassionate as it can be. I imagine if levels of employment, taxation and redistribution were the same in S.A as they are in NZ, they would have a comparable health system? Public Health is like an insurance scheme really, isn’t it? Everyone, every tax payer, pays into it but only some percentage of the population utilize the services and them to various degrees.

    Reply
    • jaspa

       /  23rd November 2015

      I have been back here for 10 years now. Living there was different. It’s pretty important to have medical insurance. It normally comes in with one’s employment contract and my husband had just ended his employment contract and started a new one when his accident happened, so wasn’t covered. The private hospitals there are excellent.

      I gave birth there and wouldn’t be here today if the government hospital hadn’t been overflowing that night and the private one (which I had registered with but not fully paid up, the baby came earlier than expected) made an exception. The government hospital had women birthing in the corridors that night and I experienced complications that I would not have survived.

      Mind you, I have a story about my Dad’s death (in NZ) that would certainly raise a few questions. But that is a story for another day.

      Reply
      • Oh yes, I deal directly with people’s situations that are loosely called “medical misadventure”. There are terrible stories. In my life I only have experiences ranging from better than adequate to outright excellent. I profoundly wish for NZ to maintain a high quality (egalitarian) public health system, with an insurance/private sector available for those who choose it, rather than the iniquitous insurance based private/underfunded public one of USA and SA (it sounds like).

        Reply

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