More flag poll details

Newshub published more details on their Reid Research flag poll.

Overall results:

  • Change – 30%
  • No change – 61%
  • Don’t know/don’t care – 9%

Party breakdown:

  • National – 48% no, 41% yes
  • Labour – 73% no, 20% yes
  • Greens – 60% no, 30% yes
  • NZ First – 66% no, 34% yes

Lockwood flag design:

  • Not good or could be better- 60%
  • Good – 35%
  • Don’t care – 5%

That’s similar to change/no change so isn’t a surprise. I support change but hoped the alternative would have been ‘better’. I don’t see the need for the southern cross but understand that some people like the traditional link.

  • 16% – “I want to change the flag but am voting for the current flag because I don’t like the alternative design”

That’s also expected, there would never be universal support for any alternative design. Some people seem to think a different selection process would have come up with a magic design that everyone thinks is just the ticket but that’s dreaming.

From Newshub (with a ‘duh’ headline) – Alternative design factor in flag change opposition:

Patrick Gower: Some people like Daphne (Wright?) are against the new flag simply because it’s John Key’s pet project.

Daphne: I don’t like it because I don’t like him anyway.

Sad to see personal dislike affecting choice of flag but that’s a reality of anything done in politics.

The party aligned opposition is in part a reflection of basic personal dislike, but it will also have been influenced by the stances of the Labour and Green parties opposing the flag change process, despite flag change being party policy.

If a Labour government tried a flag change process it would be difficult due to more conservative National supporters tending to be against both flag change and Labour.

The best chance we have of changing the flag is a process initiated and driven by a popular National leader.

If this fails, and that’s quite likely due to a number of factors including political opposition, then we are unlikely to get another choice on our flag for some time.

This opportunity to choose a new flag hasn’t been handled as well as it should have been by Key, but Labour and Greens may ensure it is a wasted opportunity.

With political pettiness like this we don’t deserve a decent identifying symbol, and probably will never get one unless our politicians grow up.

I don’t see either happening in my lifetime, unless a strong leader turns up who is able to set an example of mature politics.

Perhaps our MPs should be offered free kindergarten fees. that might encourage them to graduate from the sand pit of pissed pants politics.

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28 Comments

  1. Some people seem to think a different selection process would have come up with a magic design that everyone thinks is just the ticket but that’s dreaming.

    Really? Where did you come up with that? Please quote me anyone who says anything about a “magic design”

    What some people do think a different selection process would have come up with a better design that may have been just the ticket.

    Quite a difference to your silly hyperbole and not a very far-fetched suggestion.

    Reply
    • I’ve seen a number of comments made where people had said that with the right process or the right panel a great fantastic flag would have emerged.

      Reply
      • @ PG – I am one of those or possibly the only one, since I have said this 2 or 3 times on here. It’s like “take care of the pence and the pounds take care of themselves” or, in thespian terms, “take care of the sense and the sound takes care of itself”.

        I ascribe to a wholistic view of life, including the psychic and spiritual realms; Life being One and Indivisible and therefore impossible to “dupe” if you will. To consider life only a materialistic thing is to attempt to dupe it. Hence a flag is not just a commercial logo. How can it be if my sons (and daughters) might be expected to follow it into war?

        I shan’t be able to make sense of it in words. My “happy place” where synchronicity and intuition are real and creativity informs thinking. I can’t help it. This is how I am.

        Get both the “flag” issue and selection process right (or much improved), fully engage the population in a meaningful discussion about our “identity” and its symbolic representation as a flag. Add the development of a written Constitution to sit above politicians – like a flag flies above people – to refer to legislatively, to protect and unite the people, like a flag.

        Do all this and the right or “optimum” flag design will emerge. It will still only be better or the best for that time, but I believe we’d get something much better and more generally agreeable than “Black & Bluey Silver Fern”.

        The identity discussion is “hard basket” stuff. To do this properly we’d be asking ourselves to face demons as well as angels.

        Here’s a couple of paragraphs from a Letter to the Editor I hope to have published this Thursday, in response to Dr Muriel Newman’s diatribe last week about “biculturalism” – (this’ll go down like a cup of sick) –

        “I suspect Newman does not see herself as a bicultural person, unlike Maori people who have no choice in the matter, as Dr Ranginui Walker has so cogently argued.

        Danny Butts puts it succinctly, “We know very clearly what the problem in Aotearoa is that biculturalism and multiculturalism address. The problem is … WHITE PEOPLE. White people and our cultural “supremacism”. So we could re-frame the question as ‘Decolonisation or Anti-racism?’” Yes, indeed we could”

        Reply
  2. Oliver

     /  2nd February 2016

    61% don’t want a change, well then the writing is on the wall as far as I’m concerned. The idea failed when John Key made him self the poster boy for the change in flags. People saw it for what it was John Key trying to manufacture his legacy. But it didn’t work because most of the country a disgusted with him. Now he will be remembered as an epic fail.

    Reply
  3. jamie

     /  2nd February 2016

    Right from the start John Key has treated this once-in-a-generation opportunity as a personal and political crusade, even going as far as insulting anyone who disagrees with him as “mentally deficient”.

    His most loyal supporters have been no better. The patronising ‘like it or lump it’ attitude around the whole process and the refusal to hear the views of people who do actually know more than them about flags and design has been disgraceful.

    An opportunity squandered for politics and ego. Shame.

    Reply
    • artcroft

       /  2nd February 2016

      Yes Labour arguing against their own policy was very disappointing. With Little moving against the TPPA, voting against your own beliefs is now a Labour habit.

      Reply
      • Rob

         /  2nd February 2016

        You know as well as I, if the situation were reversed National would not be sitting there agreeing totally. It’s called opposition for a reason. Some of you seem to think the Nats are god like and only have the countries best interests at heart, whilst in reality they’re looking after their own interests, same as the other parties.

        Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  2nd February 2016

        Yes, the morons are revolting.

        Reply
  4. Zedd

     /  2nd February 2016

    If these referenda fail to get Key’s desired result.. maybe he should be sent a bill for WASTING the $26mil on his ‘pet-project’ ? 😦

    Reply
  5. Nelly Smickers

     /  2nd February 2016
    Reply
    • Rob

       /  2nd February 2016

      Old news. Was in here last week.

      Reply
      • Nelly Smickers

         /  2nd February 2016

        How come you’re always such a misery-guts Robbie? It was only in my Herald this morning!!

        Reply
        • Rob

           /  2nd February 2016

          Misery guts???? There was a link to it last week. Not that one, another. The Herald eh, rehash old news for clicks. And what’s with Robbie, it’s Rob. Get it right or I’ll tell Wayne.

          Reply
          • Nelly Smickers

             /  2nd February 2016

            HUH! This from the person that called me Smelly Nickers!

            Reply
            • Rob

               /  2nd February 2016

              Bullshit, never called you anything. Prove I did and I’ll apologise.

  6. Chwaga

     /  2nd February 2016

    Well at least JK did not do it the Fiji way. Call for designs, get the Cabinet to chose five and then in March hold a vote in which the current flag does not appear.

    Reply
    • @ Chwaga – All things considered, how exactly is the Fiji way worse?

      In fact, aside from “the current flag does not appear” and, wisely, only one referenda, isn’t it much the same?

      Our “benevolent dictator” had to buy a Flag Consideration Panel as well as pay his Cabinet, whereas Fiji’s Cabinet Ministers did flag consideration for no extra money!

      Just kidding ya!

      Reply
  7. I have quoted several times on here “Canadians are fearless”, partly because I envy where they are at politically and socially right now. Also, they somehow got a fabulous outcome from their flag process too, which, of course, engendered great contention at the time.

    The quote is from a senior RAF officer who watched the Canadian Infantry move inland from Juno Beach on the morning of D-Day. When, still very near the beach, a German appeared from a hidden bunker and began firing at them, two Canadian soldiers ran towards him and ‘koshed’ him with their rifle butts.

    Why take such a risk? Why not just shoot back?
    Because, in the distance behind the German soldier, there were French civilians.

    I guess it is about being our best. Not settling for second best. Making sure we are the best and get the best. (Go for it Alan … here’s your chance).
    I don’t mean just “winning”. There’s more to being our best than simply winning.

    As a society, as a culture, I don’t think we are our best any more.
    This is expressed in many ways. Saudi sheep deals …
    Expressed in our politics and by our politicians?
    To choose ‘Black & Bluey’ would simply be to prove this is true.

    @ PG – “we don’t deserve a decent identifying symbol, and probably will never get one unless our politicians grow up”. Bingo! Got it in one!

    Lockwood’s “Black & Bluey” is simply not a decent identifying symbol.
    Not for enough people it isn’t.

    Reply
    • PG – “I support change but hoped the alternative would have been ‘better’”.

      Well it’s not!

      So what does one do?

      Vote change for the sake of change and live with a lesser flag?
      Or hold out for a better or even “best” flag, which means living with (and for me probably dying under) our “colonial relic”.

      For me at least, here’s the ghastly impasse our Prime Minister has “led” us to.

      Reply
      • I was hoping for a ‘Wow!’ sort of design and had a go at coming up with ideas for it myself, but nothing jumped out.

        However I think the Lockwood fern and southern cross flag, while a bit of a compromise, is good enough and far better for me then the current flag. It’s one I’m sure I could be proud to see flying.

        Reply

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