Dangerous level of political vitriol

In a rare post political enthusiast Geoffrey Miller has written about New Zealand’s increasingly dangerous level of political vitriol.

This looks at recent online attacks on politicians and particularly the escalation of public attacks on MPs by throwing things at them.

A tremendously open political environment

In New Zealand we are used to meeting politicians on the streets, at school fairs and at sporting events. If you want to meet a Cabinet minister – or the Prime Minister – it is not particularly difficult.

But this is under threat due to a few stupid attacks, and too much glorifying and trivialising by media, insufficient condemnation and a lack of appropriate consequences.

Part of the reason for the escalation is anger and frustration about John Key’s ongoing popularity.

The far left’s increasingly desperate anger

There is little doubt that some voices on the left have become increasingly angry in recent months.

These are a vocal minority, to be clear. Radicals are by definition a minority.

In recent months, the anger has focused mainly on the TPP.

But another, more deep-seated reason for anger is John Key’s continuing popularity. Anyone who has dipped into the comments section on The Standard, or who follows left-wing activists on Twitter, or reads comments on the various activist Facebook pages knows how central John Key to the discontent.

A constantly updated list of hundreds of John Key’s “lies” on The Standard has been shared thousands of times on Facebook.

There is plenty of legitimate criticism of John Key and the government.

But anyone who has visited the left-wing blogosphere, or Twitter-verse, or the many Facebook pages know that there is a nasty underbelly.

Very nasty at times.

The risk of escalation

On Monday, David Cunliffe tweeted “I’m no great Brownlee fan, but politics is a tough gig and most people try to make a difference.  Doesn’t deserve it”.

Cunliffe’s tweet was in reaction to a tweet by scientist and Green Party activist Dr. Sea Rotmann, who had tweeted: “I’m just glad that NZs proud tradition of throwing things at senior politicians stays alive and well”.

Acceptance and encouragement like that is as big a part of the problem as those nutty enough to do throw something, or to make stupid comments online.

Let’s tone down the rhetoric

That’s good advice for many online forums, including this one.

We are talking about a small minority who hold a visceral anger to the government.

For a handful, this anger is so visceral that that they are willing to take physical action, as seen in the Brownlee and Joyce incidents.

Again, this is a tiny minority.

We have every right to criticise, make fun of, even mock politicians.

We should not tar genuine opposition to the government with the same brush.

We should have robust debate. More than that, we desperately need it., especially given the weakened state of our parliamentary opposition.

Protesters are doing the job that Labour and the Greens currently are clearly not doing adequately inside parliament.

There is nothing wrong with a peaceful protest.

But hurling objects at MPs is not peaceful.

So far, the incidents have been harmless.

Unless politicians, media and people online recognise huge risks of not confronting and quelling the anger and inappropriate behaviour it could escalate to something far more serious.

Like New Zealand, Sweden long had a tradition of personal, retail politics in which politicians rub shoulders with voters as apparent equals. That’s what one expects in a small country.

But there is one big difference between Sweden and New Zealand.

Sweden has suffered not one, but two political assassinations. The first, in 1986, was the murder of then Prime Minister Olof Palme.

The second, in 2003, was the killing of foreign minister Anna Lindh.  Had it not been for her untimely death, Lindh was in line to be Prime Minister.

We should keep Sweden’s experiences in mind when reflecting in the increasingly dangerous level of political vitriol that New Zealand has seen in recent months.

It’s worth reading the whole post – New Zealand’s increasingly dangerous level of political vitriol.

Could it get worse? Easily. This week someone is in court for threatening to put 1080 in baby milk formula. He said in court yesterday he just cracked one day.

This is more of a left wing problem, simply because of timing, we have had a centre right Government for the last seven years and anger and encouragement of anger has been getting worse over that time, often fueled by social media.

I saw many despicable attacks on Helen Clark when she was Prime Minister, and these still continue to a lesser extent. And there’s been ongoing nasty attacks and abuse directed at the procession of Labour leaders since Clark stepped down.

Andrew Little is lower profile and less powerful so gets less but he still gets unfairly attacked. It should be noted that he was on hand to personally support Gerry Brownlee immediately after that attack. I’m sure all MPs are aware of an uneasy about potential escalation.

Key happens to be the PM copping most of the attacks but the Joyce and Brownlee incidents show that no one is immune. The person who attacked Brownlee said he could have targeted Key instead.

I think our political leaders have a responsibility to jointly stand up against escalations – and them behaving better in parliament would help set an example.

Media have to seriously look at their complicity in glorifying and encouraging anger and bad behaviour. They should be responsible for more than click harvesting.

And prominent people in social media and blogs should also speak up against the worst of anger and personal attacks online.

Leave a comment

98 Comments

  1. rayinnz

     /  24th February 2016

    And then we see some of the ‘Standard’ crew attack Andrew Little for daring to show support for Brownlee after the attack

    Reply
    • What? You don’t like individuals expressing their opinions? And yet you support politicians doing so?

      You really are a little bit confused about what freedom of speech is all about aren’t you. Are you really saying expressing the effective opinion that you think peasants should kowtow to their “betters”. Servants get paid to do that. No-one else has to.

      Reply
      • kiwi guy

         /  24th February 2016

        You’ve built The Standard into a Marxist echo chamber, you are the one who is confused about freedom of speech and the market place of ideas.

        Reply
      • higherstandard

         /  24th February 2016

        Good Lord, you really are a senile hypocritical twerp Lynn. As the owner and senior moderator on the standard you’ve allowed the place to become a vile cesspit where any anti government vitriol is accepted and often applauded and encouraged.

        Reply
    • kittycatkin

       /  24th February 2016

      He was right to express support;; this was a revolting act by a revolting pervert.

      Reply
  2. Much of the “left wing” reaction is a direct response to vile atmosphere that Kiwiblog and Whaleoil aided and abetted by people inside and employed by the National party. This was particularly virulent after the 2005 election and heading into the 2007 election. Quite simply those fuckwits spoilt the political environment in NZ.

    For instance the “left wing” commentary on the RNZ John Campbell site is a pretty normal false flag by Cameron Slater’s wee pack of trolls. They used to swing through every left wing site on a regular basis prior and after the 2008 election doing similar mass coordinated trolling. They still do it today.

    But politicians always have had to deal with the consequences of their policies of lack thereof . From ministers of education fleeing confrontations with students in the 1990s to John Key shying away from it at Waitangi, it is part of politics.

    But it has bugger all to do with “left” blogs. Things like that poor bugger in Christchurch or Joyce being sex toyed or the guy with the 1080 are usually a direct response to poor or manufactured consultation. Politicians trying to shove things like the TPPA or mining or roads or mass selling of housing like Glen Eden or simply being incompetent at their tasks like Gerry Brownlee will anger individuals and have done so forever.

    Having a rosy eyed ignorant view of our political and protest history like Geoffrey Miller has simply doesn’t help (I’d suggest that he reads some frigging history)

    But if politicians actually want to calm things down. Then I’d say that a start inside the National party and show a demonstrated behaviour improvement by their politicians and their activist sockpuppets.

    Reply
    • But if politicians actually want to calm things down. Then I’d say that a start inside the National party and show a demonstrated behaviour improvement by their politicians and their activist sockpuppets.</blockquote.
      I agree with that. Leadership on an insidious problem should come from the top.

      But not just from there, I've seen some awful stuff from Labour, Green and Mana supporters too, those parties shouldn't be excused because National is bigger and worse at present.

      And as I've said before "not as bad as Whale Oil" should not be an excuse for crappy behaviour.

      Reply
      • The difference is left politicians don’t control or manipulate left social media in the way that is carried out on the right. Frankly all left politicians are incompetent at it compared to the National party with their deliberate subversion of the course of blogs like Kiwiblog and Whaleoil.

        Can you imagine what would happen to a left politician from me if they tried to subvert The Standard? Yet Kiwiblog is in my opinion effectively run as part of National’s polling company. Whaleoil appears to be a vehicle for attacking opponents of the National party and for score settling amongst their internal factions. Whaleoil’s Cameron Slater seems to live in court these days for going well beyond legal limits. Including trying to hire someone to heck into my servers.

        So we get criticized for allowing individuals from across the left and labour movements to express their opinions well within legal limits and with no apparent association to any of these actions that naive idiots like Geoffrey Miller are declaiming? Hardly a fair or useful or even a comparison worth noticing.

        We have a legal system that is designed to constrain and define the bounds of acceptable behaviour within our society. It is one that accepts and promotes a freedom of speech and expression. It is (or should be) applied equally to all – regardless if they are friends of the Prime Minister. If people like Geoffrey Miller really want to complain, then they should find places in the law to define their complaint. Making amorphous unfounded allegations based on some kind mythic expected behaviours is simply so much hot air otherwise.

        Reply
        • Kevin

           /  24th February 2016

          “Can you imagine what would happen to a left politician from me if they tried to subvert The Standard? Yet Kiwiblog is in my opinion effectively run as part of National’s polling company. ”

          Kiwiblog’s comment section is a cesspool and basically the right wing version of The Standard’s comments.

          “Including trying to hire someone to heck into my servers.”

          Has he ever been convicted of such a crime? Are you alleging this as fact or your own personal opinion. And opinion based on what? The word of Rachinger? Have you ever thought that Slater may have merely tried to hire someone to get some dirt on opponents who post at The Standard, and gave that person no mandate, express or implied, to break the law?

          Reply
    • Kevin

       /  24th February 2016

      “For instance the “left wing” commentary on the RNZ John Campbell site is a pretty normal false flag by Cameron Slater’s wee pack of trolls. They used to swing through every left wing site on a regular basis prior and after the 2008 election doing similar mass coordinated trolling. They still do it today.”

      [Please provide links before making such accusations. Banned 2 weeks for shit-stirring.]

      Reply
      • Grumpy

         /  24th February 2016

        Except that however hard the left tried to spin the shameful RNZ commentary as “false flag”, when the posts were investigated they came from established lefties afterall

        Reply
        • Kevin

           /  24th February 2016

          That’s the thing. If Prentice wanted to back up his allegations (as no doubt he would have demanded of others if things were reversed) he just needed to investigate the public Facebook profiles of those who made the comments and presented them as evidence.

          Reply
        • mrMan

           /  24th February 2016

          “when the posts were investigated they came from established lefties after all”

          But did they? I looked through them and it looks more like the young and the drunk piling in as their friends comment brings the post into their newsfeed.

          People like Prentice, George, Slater are looking at this in the same way they look at attacks on their own site. Namely people “go” there to make trouble. The big difference with Facebook is that it “comes” to you. And if it comes to you on a Friday or Saturday night when you’re drinking with your mates, you might post anything.
          I just can’t see this as a coordinated attack, because Facebook doesn’t work that way (well it can I guess, but mostly it doesn’t)

          Reply
          • “People like Prentice, George, Slater are looking at this in the same way they look at attacks on their own site. ”

            That’s incorrect. My comments on it:

            I haven’t had a detailed look at the Radio NZ comments and they are now deleted, but some at least seem to have been made by people who look like they have been generally abusive. It’s not uncommon on Facebook.

            Especially absent any evidence I doubt this was a sophisticated sting by Slater or associates. I’ve had first hand experience of that sort of thing here and there were differences.

            I think it’s more likely someone saw the abuse and informed Slater or someone at Whale Oil who then put the post up to take a swipe at Radio NZ.

            Reply
    • higherstandard

       /  24th February 2016

      ye gods man are you having TIAs post your heart attack ? this is rabid tinfoilhat stuff.

      Reply
  3. @LP
    What a load of tosh. Your argument is nothing more than “its alright when my lot do it”. Go back to the sub-standard and stay there.

    Reply
    • Such a sophisticated intellectual argument. That bit of sub-literate grunting made such a big contribution to debate.

      /sarc

      Reply
      • Timoti

         /  24th February 2016

        Easy on. Arty has just started chewing his backy. His comments above were just a preliminary muse. Once that nicotine starts circulating he’ll be up to speed and more then happy to engage you in robust, concise and pointed invective.

        Reply
      • Iceberg

         /  24th February 2016

        To be fair, his couple of sentences made a better contribution than your TL/DR tirade. You’re so full of it you don’t event notice when you contradict yourself.

        “The difference is left politicians don’t control or manipulate left social media in the way that is carried out on the right. Frankly all left politicians are incompetent at it compared..”

        So, they don’t do it, or they aren’t any good at it. Which is it? Or they would if they were brighter?

        Reply
        • jamie

           /  24th February 2016

          “So, they don’t do it, or they aren’t any good at it. Which is it?”

          I think he means when they have tried they have proved incompetent whereas the right wing politicians appear to have been more successful at it.

          Reply
  4. Brown

     /  24th February 2016

    I don’t care anymore because the politicians and their bureaucrats have set themselves up as petty law makers, judges and juries to micro manage the lives of people who don’t need it. The political classes undermine personal accountability and look to punish those who protect their own and themselves against the violent and stupid. Nevertheless, that doesn’t excuse bad behaviour and I’d never bother to throw anything at anyone except in self defence but it does affect how sympathetic I feel when annoying people get annoyed.

    Reply
  5. Patzcuaro

     /  24th February 2016

    Maybe a contributing factor to the increased level of vitriol is the reliance of politicians, of all shades, on spin.

    They rarely answer the question when being interviewed but instead have a prepared answer that just pushes their agenda.

    Reply
    • Timoti

       /  24th February 2016

      Bullseye. Like a sales person with a broken cash register, politicians have lost the art of talking “off the cuff” with passion. I wonder if they get a PR brief each week, with emergency contact details in case things go wrong.

      Reply
      • @ Patzcuaro – Bullseye @ Timoti – Split the Arrow!

        What is the “broken cash register” in this case, do you think?

        Reply
        • Pickled Possum

           /  24th February 2016

          @@@@ Heya ParTi
          How are you my friend.
          I am well and outta rehab lol 🙂

          Yep while the people get sick of double talk and the “Throwers” rise.
          I will plant weed and harvest the garden at my place.

          What is the song …. mood.. genre .. tonight over at The Place to be.

          Reply
          • @ POSSUM !!! Welcome back! That was short rehab? It can’t have been for YourNZ Addiction huh? When I go in for that I’ll have to go residential for 7 days at least! 🙂 I am very well, despite the attentions of Budgeting Services …

            The “Throwers”, yes. Josie Butler is looking like the cream of the crop.
            A veritable stand-up comedian ….
            All around, So Sad … “there our shadow sleeps”

            My involvement today has been limited. Themes for me have been –
            – Politeness – Vitriol – Reform of Democracy … I dunno …

            I’ll be playing a song for Brown, whose precise description of the value of a General Election I rate “Comment de Jour”

            Only this song on here, later on Open Forum after ambo practice –

            Reply
    • mrMan

       /  24th February 2016

      I think you can’t look past the fact that we’ve had the same government for a while, and polls suggest we’ll have them for a while longer. So the nut job’s that ‘could’ lash out, have had all the time in the world to stew in their juices and get themselves agitated.
      A change of government would release the valve and start the process anew, this time with right wing nut job’s starting to fester. And you don’t want that. I mean a left wing nut job threw a dildo, a right wing nut job did the Oklahoma bombing.

      Reply
      • Patzcuaro

         /  24th February 2016

        There appears to be no relief valve in sight, probably at least 5 years away unless something happens to John Key and even if it did, Labour isn’t ready.

        Reply
        • @ Patzcuaro – I believe there is a relief valve in sight. Possibly it’s staring us in the face? Underpinning this whole discussion is an assumption that this mechanism of elected representation we loosely call ‘democracy’ has reached its zenith and is unimprovable. It has nowhere to grow. No way of evolving …

          What’s more, politicians probably have a vested interest in maintaining it as it is? The population contributes too, out of fear of change or, woe betide us, anything vaguely ‘experimental’ e.g. internet voting, continuous polling, proper facilitation of group process … etc etc

          Contrary to the prevailing assumption, I think ‘democracy’ as we know it is quite chronically ill, largely from Old Age and Musty Quasi-Religious Tradition, though not terminally so. In need of defibrillation rather than palliative care.

          It grossly over-emphasises ‘herd instinct’ Party Politics – a left-over from the days of the illiterate ‘masses’ – and acutely competitive adversarial communication – a mechanism of simultaneous engagement and control of the population – (I liken this to ‘preparedness for war’) – to name but two.

          Pick up sides, choose your weapons … Tag or Tackle … BULL Rush!!!

          Labour doesn’t need to be ‘ready’, whatever that means?
          They need to be one component of a Parliament-wide Coalition …

          Reply
      • kiwi guy

         /  24th February 2016

        “I mean a left wing nut job threw a dildo, a right wing nut job did the Oklahoma bombing.”

        Another Leftie nut job:

        Reply
        • Another Totalitarian Dictator passing himself off as a communist (and giving one great theory of political-economic forward movement a bad name. Note the word “one” as in one of several, not all capable of being stupidly branded “Left”)

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  24th February 2016

            Now let me see, the number of communist governments that have not been led by a totalitarian dictator is … not very many.

            Reply
          • kiwi guy

             /  24th February 2016

            Name all the thriving communist democracies then.

            Good luck.

            Reply
            • The totalitarian dictatorships weren’t communist, they were totalitarian dictatorships masquerading as communism.

              There aren’t communist democracies, no, but there are degrees of democratic “socialism” except socialism is the wrong word? Enterprise-Welfare Democracy perhaps? Arguably NZ is still one and has been one moreso in the past?

              Marx theorised that true communism – “a democratic association of free producers” – would evolve …. He may have been wrong … or it may not have done so yet?

              No matter what else one writes on here, mention a word that can even remotely be construed as “Leftie” and out comes the red-hot branding iron … I wonder why our democracy isn’t really working?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  24th February 2016

              You just redefined communism to suit yourself, PZ. But I think all of the disasters that actually called themselves a communist party take priority.

              Never mind, I take your point that there are a large range of Lefty PoVs and some can easily be mistaken for being reasonable. I suggest that actually includes the present Government to a large degree. Now perhaps you can persuade the loony Left of both those truths.

  6. Oliver

     /  24th February 2016

    Politicians get what they deserve. It comes with the job. If they can’t handle the heat then they should fuck off and stop being whiny bitches.

    Reply
    • Patzcuaro

       /  24th February 2016

      I think that is a little unfair it’s a tough job.

      The dildo had an element comedy about it and Joyce will be dining out on it for years to come. The mud/guuh had no element of comedy and was pure frustration I would imagine.

      Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  24th February 2016

      Crap, Oliver, unless you are looking forward to a police state. Civilization requires civil citizens and the alternative is repression.

      Reply
      • Oliver

         /  24th February 2016

        No civilization require’s civil leaders, civil government, civil police.

        Reply
      • @ Alan – I agree. Also, when some of the garbage that passes for rational debate or ‘communication’ in Parliament (and elsewhere in politics) is widely recognised as a kind of misuse of free speech and politicians somehow get feedback to discourage it …

        Oliver may indeed want a police state, so that he can complain all the time about living in a police state. However, I will add that I think vigilance about the possible development of a police state runs both ways.

        To use an extreme analogy, I find Inverted Totalitarianism more believable than Cultural Marxism.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  24th February 2016

          I don’t see a problem with acknowledging elements of truth in both.

          Reply
          • @ Alan – True. However, on a broader canvas I think it’s much more difficult to explain Cultural Marxism’s (CM’s) motivations than it is Inverted Totalitarianism’s (IT’s) – evidently corporate profit and military-industrial-intelligence service control. War mentality is explicit, required for access to other peoples’ resources.

            CM on the other hand takes other people’s money – productive sector people – from its own economy, knowing full well that doing so will de-motivate those very people to make the money CM is reliant upon?

            If CM is anti-globalisation and maybe even isolationist, war is not explicit, if even implicit, except for the protection of one’s own resources from attack by other CM or IT nations?

            I think a good deal of the panic about CM expresses the fear of people who have long ago shut down their own hearts to live in denial and intolerance; when they see other people – often women and minorities – publicly opening their hearts in an effort to promulgate more caring, acceptance and tolerance. Not all, of course … no sweeping generalizations … there’s always extremists … they should always be called to account …

            If there are people who want to nationalise all industry again and have a command economy, or who want class war – who may or may not be CM – given we’ve “been there, done that”, I think they’re bloody fools!

            But if I give equal credence to Inverted Totalitarianism, even hypothetically, it begs the obvious question: Who is calling IT’s extremists to account?

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  24th February 2016

              You have put your finger on the critical difference: Cultural Marxists are idiots and Inverted Totalitarians are very smart.

              As I’ve said before, I think small countries have a huge advantage in keeping IT under control, principally via sunlight in the dark places.

  7. If Mr Munro ever comes back from Korea or wherever he is then something more extreme might happen…… he seems to enjoy talking all gangsta …. black bagging and beatings among the mild statements…

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/tag/stuart_munro

    Search on The Standard and you find a lot more from him, if Lprent hasn’t redact his more extreme statements….

    Politician’s have a tough job. Many policies that are the correct thing to do are not popular or divide opinion. Things like removing tariff barriers and floating the currency a la 84-87, TPPA, holding government spending as a percentage of GDP when everyone is screaming for more lollies or for heir personal itch to be scratched, etc etc

    But people calling for physical violence whether left, right or centre are playing into the hands of those in the public service who want more control, more rules and more power to enforce. And those people exist and those people love seizing on crisis moments with TINA arguments and “temporary solutions”

    More rational and calm discussion will help prevent the control freaks from getting more power – its their aphrodisiac. They only care about gaining and increasing their power….

    Reply
    • Oliver

       /  24th February 2016

      Politicians don’t have any power the people do and it’s only a matter of time before someone reminds them of this.

      Reply
      • Grumpy

         /  24th February 2016

        Correct, people do……and they exercise it at a General Election.

        Reply
        • Oliver

           /  24th February 2016

          If they want, or they are free to exercise it in other ways. And nobody can do anything about it.

          Reply
          • Kevin

             /  24th February 2016

            I think you’ll find that the police can.

            Reply
            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              They didn’t stop the dildo or the mud. Security through police is an illusion. No security agency can stop a determined attacker. I work in the security industry so I know. So your wrong kev.

            • Iceberg

               /  24th February 2016

              So far you are a poll hacker, soldier and security expert. Did you work with Cunliffe on the Fonterra deal?

            • Iceberg

               /  24th February 2016

              Almost forgot you’re the guy that can spot a plain clothed cop in a crowd, when nobody else can.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  24th February 2016

              So Hitler and your Lefty mates Mugabe and Stalin survived how?

              I see Mugabe has reduced once prosperous Zimbabwe/Rhodesia to an economic basket case with a GDP per capita of $200. Lefty socialism and inverse racism at its finest.

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              Zimbabwe/Rhodesia were fucked when the first white man layed eyes on it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  24th February 2016

              And your spelling is as bizarre as your ridiculous assertions.

            • Blazer

               /  24th February 2016

              so how did your libertarian hero Ayn Rand survive under capitalism?

            • jamie

               /  24th February 2016

              Oliver makes a good point, one I’ve expressed before myself.

              If the police and security and DP squad can’t stop a dildo or a handful of glitter, then they certainly can’t stop a bullet.

              The only real protection available to them, in my opinion, is early intelligence information so they know who the nutter with the gun is and stop them before they get to the parade.

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              Intelligence doesn’t work either. I’ve worked in the intelligence sector and it’s capabilities are highly overstated. One example is how the intelligence agencies failed to prevent 9/11, even though the suspects left a massive trail of info.

            • Timoti

               /  24th February 2016

              Name your unit or org , if you are talking New Zealand.?
              As a candate what was your security level… we have 5.?
              Is your clearance still valid, or has the 10 year renewal lapsed.

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              Timoti I can’t give you that information, I work on a need to know principal and you don’t need to know.

            • @ Oliver – Maybe the intelligence agencies failed to prevent 9/11 on purpose?

              You’ve almost come full circle Oliver? You appeared here some time ago as a radical leftie TPPA protester and now your an SIS Black Ops spook …. incredible!

              This is counter-espionage even Kiwi Guy would be proud of.

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              I said I worked amongst the intelligence community. That doesn’t mean it was the SIS.

              And what I disagree with TPP so that automatically makes me a radical? What does make you?

              You watch to many movies, the reality isn’t as glamorous.

            • Iceberg

               /  24th February 2016

              “I said I worked amongst the intelligence community” vs “I’ve worked in the intelligence sector”

              Your lies are starting to unravel aren’t they Oliver? Was that before or after the War?

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              Yeah it’s all lies Iceberg.

            • Iceberg

               /  24th February 2016

              Unless you can provide proof of your grandiose claims and credentials (perhaps via email to PG) then it’s safe to assume you are a pathological liar.

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              I don’t have to prove anything to anyone. The burden of proof is with the prosecution. I know a thing or two about law.

            • Timoti

               /  24th February 2016

              I find you guilty of BS

              1- You didn’t have to disclose anything, Ollie. You only had to tackle me on my false facts.

              1b- New Zealand only has three clearance levels, not 5 : Confidential,Secret and Top Secret. There is another, Liaison Clearance, but that’s an auxiliary classification and I know little about it.

              2- Clearance is renewed every five years, not ten,Ollie. Once you contract is terminated your clearance is revoked forthwith. You also sign the termination declaration.

              .

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              Actually it has 4 CV SV TS and top secret special. But then you knew that didn’t you.

              I know you’re a soldier Timoti.

            • Timoti

               /  24th February 2016

              Do the decent thing, Oliver, Apologise to the blog and leave in disgrace.

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              Yeah I will when you explain where you got the gen 4 night vision equipment. I know a few people that are interested to know.

            • Timoti

               /  24th February 2016

              You are being silly. Accept you are a lying toe-rag and move on.

              ” I know a few people that are interested to know.”

              Name these people..your dog doesn’t count.

              Gen 4 Gogs aren’t responsible for your lies. Move on son. Be a man, not a sniveller.

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              You’re the only one who is lying. Stop making stuff up, before you get yourself in trouble.

              Obviously you’re a Walter Mitty..

              You have been warned.

            • Iceberg

               /  24th February 2016

              You are a trumped up unemployed little toe rag with none of the credentials you profess to have. You’ve left a trail of BS on this blog and it’s better off without you.
              Fought in a war – sure you did, video game more like.

            • Oliver

               /  24th February 2016

              Iceberg you have obviously lived a sheltered life. How about you put down the tv remote and go out and something useful with your life. I’ll let your ignorance slide this time but beware if I want to get your info……..

            • Pickled Possum

               /  24th February 2016

              @Oliver,

              The ‘Dogs’ are baying for Blood!
              All this because you disagree with the TPPA ??

              The vitriol speech Demanding you DOX ya self right now should be Ignored.

              It is a wilful distraction from the 1st point and it shows what sort of human lives behind that avatar.

            • Iceberg

               /  24th February 2016

              Haha. Backed into a corner by the truth you threaten…what exactly? Maybe call your mates in MI5?

  8. Brown

     /  24th February 2016

    … and they exercise it at a General Election….

    That’s like a fat person dieting on lollies. Feels good but makes no real and good difference.

    Reply
  9. kiwi guy

     /  24th February 2016

    The Left is now dominated by various Marxist derivatives which see society as a battlefield in all out Class Warfare, it is this war mentality that is driving Leftists to violent acts.

    Reply
    • mrMan

       /  24th February 2016

      So how do you mitigate having neither the passion of the left, or the wealth of the right?
      Oh, that’s right… by babbling conspiracy theories all day.
      How’s Atlas Shrugged going?

      Reply
      • Timoti

         /  24th February 2016

        Alas, too many on the Right haven’t read Atlas Shrugged. Ironically I think the Left have read this book way more than those of a Right persuasion. Lefties know their enemy. Conversely, Righties don’t know their saviour. If they read Atlas Shrugged they might get some purity into their philosophy and stop practising socialism.

        Reply
        • Rob

           /  24th February 2016

          Ayn Rand, spent her life ranting about socialism but then, at the end of her life, ended up going on welfare because she was broke and all those who supported her stupid theories weren’t there to help. Look after yourself. Greed sure worked for her didn’t it. Timotis hero. Nothing but a hypocrite.
          “If they read Atlas Shrugged they might get some purity into their philosophy and stop practising socialism.” So I guess that means when pension time comes around for you, if it already hasn’t, or if something happened and you suddenly couldn’t support yourself, you’re just going to turn down that money aren’t you. If not then you’re nothing but a hypocrite as well.

          Reply
          • Timoti

             /  24th February 2016

            Dig a bit deeper, Robby. Go past the quick Wiki search. Check her philosophy on when and when it isn’t acceptable to accept help. I think she died in the 8Os. Remember, people evolve, and are products of their time, and everyone has a take on her and other philosophers views.

            “If they read Atlas Shrugged they might get some purity into their philosophy and stop practising socialism.” So I guess that means when pension time comes around for you, if it already hasn’t, or if something happened and you suddenly couldn’t support yourself, you’re just going to turn down that money aren’t you” ( flat tax rate, Charity , Compulsory contraception, no more phoney crony capitalism ie Dick Hubbard style)

            What a nasty piece of work you are Robbie, but you have a fair point. What I was trying to explain is National is a socialist party. In fact all our political parties are socialist. Can you name me one that isn’t? I mean, National isn’t even moving on Super to up the age of entitlement. I believe Labour will. National needs to start acting like a real hard line conservative party. Rand shows a good blue print. Of course it will never happen, will it Robby?

            Reply
            • mrMan

               /  24th February 2016

              “Check her philosophy on when and when it isn’t acceptable to accept help.”
              Her philosophy was that Altruism is abhorrent and that the selfish man is the virtuous man.
              So not only unacceptable to accept help, but unacceptable to give it.

            • Timoti

               /  24th February 2016

              Rand called altruism moral cannibalism in which people were sacrificed in the name of duty to his fellow-man,government etc.
              To her it was devoid of moral value unlike selfishness which was morally superior provided it was devoid of coercion.

              People seem to add a moral evaluation to the meaning of the word” selfishness”

              Rand stated it was not immoral to accept benefits they had already payed for. This is the classic smear Rand has had to endure. Much of it unfair. This doesn’t mean her views are sacrosanct to people who respect her philosophy.

              However, you will be pleased to know two other pioneers of Libertarianism never took a dime from the state -Rose Lane and Isabel Paterson.

              So , yes Rands decision to accept welfare is open to debate.

            • Blazer

               /  24th February 2016

              Rand was a hypocrite.

            • Rob

               /  24th February 2016

              Lots of western countries have elements of socialism.
              “Rand stated it was not immoral to accept benefits they had already payed for.” She was personally against it. She was a hypocrite.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  24th February 2016

              Not as hypocritical as Lefties who rant about capitalism while surviving solely because of it.

              “Rand underwent surgery for lung cancer in 1974 after decades of heavy smoking.[96] In 1976, she retired from writing her newsletter and, despite her initial objections, allowed Evva Pryor, a social worker from her attorney’s office, to enroll her in Social Security and Medicare.”

              When you have paid taxes all your life exactly why is it hypocritical to get something back when you need it? If she had not paid her taxes you would have a point.

            • mrMan

               /  24th February 2016

              Did she pay taxes though? Or did she survive on donations from her followers? She certainly didn’t work, and I doubt she sold that many books in her life.

            • Rob

               /  24th February 2016

              ““Rand underwent surgery for lung cancer in 1974 after decades of heavy smoking.” After also denying smoking had anything to do with cancer.
              “When you have paid taxes all your life exactly why is it hypocritical to get something back when you need it?”
              It’s not, but she didn’t personally believe that. Said it was ok for others but she wouldn’t take it.

            • Timoti

               /  25th February 2016

              I wasn’t talking about countries. I was talking about political parties. Can you name me one political party in NZ that is not socialist? You can’t because we don’t have one. The only thing distinguishing our political parties are points of emphasis…not philosophy.

              ”Rand stated it was not immoral to accept benefits they had already payed for.” She was personally against it. She was a hypocrite.”

              No she wasn’t. The argument comes about thus. ” by Rand accepting welfare ( which was acceptable in certain circumstances as she had stated) had that contravened her moral imperatives ( not personal) which she said never changed. That’s where the argument is. Not the fact of her accepting welfare.

      • kiwi guy

         /  24th February 2016

        What conspiracy theories?

        Its ideology at work.

        Reply
    • @ Agony Aunt Kiwi Goy – I suffer terribly from Leftie War Mentality. What can I do?

      Friends insist I need to become a hard-line war-monger Capitalist?
      This apparently justifies the condition and even heaps of ‘acting out’.
      I’m told if I’ve got ‘God’ and Money on my side I can make war all over the world?

      Please tell me that’s not true Aunty?

      Your follower – PartisanZ

      Reply
  10. 2 late & u no it

     /  24th February 2016
    Reply

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