An inappropriate welcome?

Two significant state visits to New Zealand, the first visit ever by a President of India and the first visit in 25 years by the Prime Minister of France:

Prime Minister John Key welcomed the upcoming visit to New Zealand of the President of the Republic of India, Shri Pranab Mukherjee.

“New Zealand is looking forward to hosting the President on this historic visit, the first by an Indian President to New Zealand,” says Mr Key.

“It will be an opportunity to highlight our warm relationship, based on a shared Commonwealth heritage, commitment to democracy and the over 160,000 New Zealanders of Indian-origin, who make an important contribution to business, cultural and sporting life in New Zealand.”

President Mukherjee and his delegation arrive on Saturday 30 April for a series of events in Auckland, including an official welcome at Government House Auckland, a State dinner hosted by the Governor General, and talks with the Governor General and the Prime President Mukherjee leaves New Zealand on Monday 2 May.

And:

Prime Minister John Key has announced French Prime Minister Manuel Valls will visit New Zealand in the first week of May.

Prime Minister Valls and his delegation arrive on Sunday 1 May for a series of events in Auckland, including an official welcome at the Auckland War Memorial Museum, followed by a wreath laying and bilateral talks.

“This is the first time in 25 years that a French Prime Minister has visited New Zealand,” Mr Key says.

“I am pleased that New Zealand is able to host Prime Minister Valls for this short but very important visit.”

Prime Minister Valls will depart New Zealand on May 2

So these are important visits.

Is it appropriate to welcome visitors like this with aggressive looking and sounding spear and stick wielding people poking their tongue out and getting right up in the visitors faces?

Maori culture is unique and is obviously important to New Zealand.

But isn’t a more welcoming looking welcome possible?

What if a visitor asked not to be confronted like this on arrival because they found it intimidating?

What if the security people accompanying a visitor refused to allow people with weapons to come close?

Is there an alternative that also showcases Maori culture?

It’s not all noisy and confrontational, perhaps an edited more moderate version could be developed.

An extended version of a Maori welcome:

 

Leave a comment

154 Comments

  1. Pantsdownbrown

     /  2nd May 2016

    A rousing rendition of ‘Ten Guitars’?

    Reply
  2. Brown

     /  2nd May 2016

    I suggest a quiet word to visitors to bring a musket.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  2nd May 2016

      And blankets?

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  2nd May 2016

        If you mean for keeping warm on inclement days, those Maori participating, and especially aua toa (those warriors) are braving the cold in proper traditional dress, such is the degree of respect shown for the tikanga (customary & correct formal procedure) and for the chief being welcomed to Pāremata Aotearoa (the New Zealand Parliament).

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  2nd May 2016

          Err, no. Muskets and blankets have a more traditional purpose.

          Reply
  3. Gezza

     /  2nd May 2016

    The tikanga is explained to dignitaries. They know it is a formal welcome & a mark of great respect to a rangatira. I don’t know of any official visitors who have ever complained about this. Only those who have said they were impressed and honoured.

    Look at the way her security detail are constantly scanning. They can never let their guard down.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  2nd May 2016

      I think what visitors say in private about their Maori welcome would be at odds with their gushing public sentiments.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  2nd May 2016

        Yes, but you would think that Corky.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  2nd May 2016

          Though, perhaps you could ask them yourself when you accept your invitation to the next state dinner? 😎

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  2nd May 2016

            A bit nasty. You have really got your kaupapa in a twist. Maybe its a lack of state dinners and public acknowledgements.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              A bit nasty.
              Possibly. I wasn’t sure how much you could actually handle. Tell me, is there anybody you actually like Corky?

            • Corky

               /  3rd May 2016

              From this:

              ‘I think what visitors say in private about their Maori welcome would be at odds with their gushing public sentiments.”

              To this:

              Tell me, is there anybody you actually like Corky?

              Theres’s a problem, but not at my end of the pae pae, old China.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              So it’s come to this. Now you’re calling me ancient porcelain.
              Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.

            • Corky

               /  3rd May 2016

              Don’t deflect. I want to understand your skewered thought processes. And what caused you to become nasty. Something doesn’t gel. Lets explore that shall we?

              Look. its not rocket science. Again, how did this:

              “I think what visitors say in private about their Maori welcome would be at odds with their gushing public sentiments.”

              Beget this:

              “Yes, but you would think that Corky.”

              “Though, perhaps you could ask them yourself when you accept your invitation to the next state dinner. ( emote with sunnnies on at end)”

              “Tell me, is there anybody you actually like Corky?”

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Awww Corky, sorry mate. Just a wee piss-take. Get a grin on yer dial. Mine’s usually ear-to-ear when I read your korero. 😉

            • Corky

               /  3rd May 2016

              Hope you enjoyed my piss-take Kowrero. My grinning starts when you answer me back.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              PS: the sunnies 😎 are virtually part of the uniform around here, even in the pub, at night, in a poorly lit bar. Tell ya mate ya can’t even find yer beer half the time.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Already answered bro. You just need to do a bit more processing. Later Corky. All the best. 😎

            • Nelly Smickers

               /  3rd May 2016

              I’ve noticed that around here as well Geezz.

              How come they still have the swing-tags attached? 😎

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Just tradition Nellers. 😎

            • Corky

               /  3rd May 2016

              “How come they still have the swing-tags attached? ”

              Well, Nelles, Wayne bought a box of these glasses from the Otara market a while back. How do you think your ” Brazilian” was payed for?
              Wayno isn’t as thick as everyone thinks. He’s just a little short on processing power as Grizzles would say.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              😀 ❤

            • Nelly Smickers

               /  3rd May 2016

              I remember on here a few days back, Wayne called Corky a ‘pie-or-tea-far’ or something…..

              Were you ever able to translate that for us Geezz?? 😎

            • Corky

               /  3rd May 2016

              Yes,Gezza. Please translate. We await with baited breath…even Wayno who has forgotten what he mean’t. He needs a notebook,Nelles.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              Not nice Nelly. Wayne wouldn’t want to offend like that would he?

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              I’ve checked several dictionaries. As far as I can make out pie-or-tea-far means a pastry dough casing over a filling of various sweet or savoury ingredients, or means alternatively, tea is a drink made from the plant Camellia sinensis and far means distant. So Wayne’s calling Corky a distant alternative cuppa. 😎

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              With a pie.

            • Corky

               /  3rd May 2016

              Thank god. I thought he was insinuating I was a Lemon Tie-Mai.

            • Nelly Smickers

               /  3rd May 2016

              OK – thanks for that Geezz. That’s exactly what I thought he meant XD

  4. Alan Wilkinson

     /  2nd May 2016

    The Indian President might prefer the haka to Paul Henry?

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  2nd May 2016

      He would probably prefer eating nails to Paul Henry.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  2nd May 2016

        Damn it, you leapt in before I had a chance to think of anything ghastly enough. Please, please let him not have made anti-Indian remarks this time.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  2nd May 2016

          He’ll probably go anti-Pakistani, he may not know the difference.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  2nd May 2016

            Probably not, Paki, Punjabi, what’s the difference ?

            I knew an Englishwoman who referred to anyone from that part of the world as a Punjabi. Did she not know that this was like referring to anyone from the UK as a Scot ?

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              Are you sure she was English. That sounds like an American to me.

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              2nd thoughts – you’re right, probably a brit. Surveys have shown a lot of Americans aren’t even sure where Australia is, let alone the Punbjab.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  2nd May 2016

              A friend went to work in Georgia and reported the newspapers covered only local news and stories about America – “known locally as “The World'”.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  2nd May 2016

              No, she was definitely English. Punjabi and Paki are sloppily used there for anyone from the Indian continent.

              I can well believe that, Alan. Bill Bryson says much the same thing.

            • Nelly Smickers

               /  2nd May 2016

              Wayne was born and bred in Dunedin. Even today it’s still dot-heads and curry-munchers

              Must be a ‘Southern Man’ thing??

  5. MaureenW

     /  2nd May 2016

    How about a wee highland fling or a reading of some poetry? Inappropriate, seriously?

    Animated, arousing, spine-tingling are all words I could use to describe a good maori welcome.

    People are sick to death of political correctness, promoted by wee petals who find everything offensive or “inappropriate”

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  2nd May 2016

      How about a Morris dance or Skip to the Loo, my darling ? (the second to be sung after four or five large cups of tea ?

      Reply
      • MaureenW

         /  2nd May 2016

        I’d forgotten about “Skip-to-my-Lou”, funny, I’m cringing as I write this, I wonder why?

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  2nd May 2016

          Have another cuppa ! No, do take the large cup.

          Reply
  6. Conspiratoor

     /  2nd May 2016

    A whakapohane. Wheres dun when you need him?

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  2nd May 2016

      Probably out at the front gate unsuccessfully explaining to the police why he should be let in.

      Reply
  7. Hall

     /  2nd May 2016

    It seems like the government is only interested in Maoris when it comes to welcoming VIPs and when they need to blame someone for something. Every country has some sort of traditional welcome for guests, its usually has some sort of weaponry involved, with the British and USA it’s the military war dance/parade. But I agree the maori way of welcoming is too confrontational and should be replaced with something more appropriate.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  2nd May 2016

      I don’t think so Hall, truly. Not for dignitaries anyway. The whakatau (official welcome) – what it signifies, how it proceeds, and what to do – is explained to them by Protocol Division in MFAT. Most, I believe, are fascinated.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  2nd May 2016

        It’s uniquely NZ.

        I find it almost unbearable when a haka’s done at a funeral, as it was at a late friend’s one-it is heart-breaking.

        Reply
        • MaureenW

           /  2nd May 2016

          Guess it depends on who’s funeral, who’s performing the haka and is it (dare I say it?) appropriate for that particular occasion. I can think of two funerals where moving hakas were performed, that of Paul Holmes and also Peter Williams QC. Of course both hakas were moving and performed well.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  2nd May 2016

            I have been to several funerals of people I knew where it was done, and it is always heart-breaking. It’s just devastating-as The Last Post is when it’s played. It never seems to be done badly.

            An oldish Maori man in town was killed when he was walking his dog-the dog died, too. He had been a great supporter of a local rugby ground, and they took the coffin on a last round of it on the way to the burial.

            Reply
  8. Eliza M

     /  2nd May 2016

    Are you serious Pete? Or are you just trying to draw those of your readers that are racists out into the light.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  2nd May 2016

      Is it racist to believe that no Maori could consider the haka inappropriate? Are only pakeha allowed to challenge convention and status quo?

      Reply
    • Conspiratoor

       /  2nd May 2016

      Okay Liza I’ll play your silly game. The haka has lost its mana. Too many skinny white guys embarrassing themselves now. And I’m not sure tattoed warriors wielding axes and prancing around with sticky out tongues is a face we want to present to the world in the 21st century. Cheers c

      Reply
      • MaureenW

         /  2nd May 2016

        What would you prefer to see?

        Reply
        • Conspiratoor

           /  2nd May 2016

          Dignity Maureen. A firm handshake, eye contact and a couple of well rehearsed one liners. For the frog a side trip to the rainbow warrior museum. Cheers c

          Reply
          • MaureenW

             /  2nd May 2016

            Don’t mind your plan for the frog, but I think we have enough suited white men mouthing meaningless diplomatic drivel, I prefer the more spirited welcome

            Reply
            • Conspiratoor

               /  2nd May 2016

              Hell if we have to bring race into it, Id be just as happy with a suited brown man, as long as he kept his pants on and his snorer at a respectable distance. Winston would be perfect in the role, in fact if memory serves he’s already excelled himself with foreign affairs

            • MaureenW

               /  2nd May 2016

              @ conspiratoor. Winston? Yes, perfect for meaningless drivel, after lunch I hope – that would surely bring some dignity with it………… Hic!!

          • Gezza

             /  2nd May 2016

            C as diplomats go you’re a natural.

            Reply
            • Conspiratoor

               /  2nd May 2016

              You sound like my therapist G

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              Has he still got all his fingers?

            • If we have to bring race into it, we should do it the proper white european racial way, eh?

              The thing about being part of the dominant culture is that its so pervasive you don’t really notice it and probably don’t even think of it as being a culture? This is accentuated by the fact it tends to absorb, mould and integrate other cultures. Indian dairies are not really ‘Indian’ are they?

              But the Sky Tower is as much a symbol of ‘Pakeha’ culture as a wharenui with its carved koruru, maihi and other symbolic structures is a Maori one. The airliner, airport, roads, cars, telecoms, concrete, houses, parks, schools, parliament … et al ad infinitum … Everything else these foreign leaders experience will be Pakeha or European or Western culture. Toynbee’s ‘Western Christendom’, despite its secular pretentions.

              Its entirely appropriate then that the first thing and/or the welcome these visitors or manuhiri experience is our ‘First Nations’ culture, in our case iwi/hapu Maori.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  2nd May 2016

              How quaint P

            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              @ PZ

              The thing about being part of the dominant culture is that its so pervasive you don’t really notice it and probably don’t even think of it as being a culture? This is accentuated by the fact it tends to absorb, mould and integrate other cultures. Indian dairies are not really ‘Indian’ are they?

              So rather than being a ‘dominant’ culture, one could also call it an ‘accomodating and inclusive’ one perhaps….
              I agree that a traditional Maori welcome is entirely appropriate, but it MUST be explained properly before foreigners experience it. The ‘Wero’ is supposed to be a bit scary, it is the hosts’ way of displaying strength, and seeing how the visitors react.

  9. Ray

     /  2nd May 2016

    It is worth remembering that when you are welcomed onto a marae that it is with a powhiri rather than a haka
    http://www.tehana.co.nz/NOHO+MARAE+STAY/Marae+Protocols.html
    Wonder where the challenge that is a haka comes from
    Maybe a North Island thing, it is not what happens down here, certainly not Te Raupraha’s kamate haka would be considered in poor taste

    Reply
  10. Pickled Possum

     /  2nd May 2016

    I find the Haka to be appropriate at Anything.
    The wehi wana and ihi are what it is all about for me
    Ihi – Charming power
    Wana – Inspirational power
    Wehi – Awesome power

    After those doing the karanga have woven the rope, the haka pohiri pulls on the canoe of the manuhiri, hence the reason ´Toia mai te waka´ is used at so many powhiri. Often at a tangihanga those doing the powhiri will hold greenery in their hands. The greenery should be specially chosen ensuring that the leaves have a light side and a dark side, representing light and darkness or life and death. The leaves remind us that life is linked with death, that life and death are interwoven.

    The call of the haka pohiri likens the arrival of the group of visitors to the safe arrival of a canoe, with its paddlers and passengers, to the shore. The canoe is dragged safely to a resting place onto the shore. Likewise the voices of the haka pohiri symbolically represent the rope by which the visitors are pulled safely onto the marae. So, from the gates the rope platted voice of the Kai Karanga intertwines and twists to give greater strength to the voices of the haka pohiri, strengthened still further by the Kai Whakaatu. As long as there are people and the marae, the rope represented by the voices of people is a rope that ties and pulls people together. It stretches from the past, appears in the present, and disappears to serve future generations.

    Acknowledgment to those who have passed on Once the manuhiri have approached the puku, they pause and with the tangata whenua bow their heads for two or three minutes in remembrance. Immediately after, at a given sign, the manuhiri move to take up the seats provided with the speakers sitting in the front row of seats.

    Reply
    • Thanks PP, your explanation is what I grew up with in Marae at Te Kao, Kaitaia and Ahipara. I notice the Indian PM was briefed properly about the protocols and was greeted with and responded to a Hongi correctly. I won’t attempt to apologise for some of the comments above, I do get tired though, with the belief that Maori are all take, and no give. Our real history belies that.

      Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  2nd May 2016

        Yes PP, a very good explanation of it indeed.
        Kai runga noa ake koe i a au mo whakamarama 🙂

        Reply
      • Gezza

         /  2nd May 2016

        Kātuarehe ! (Outstanding) Possum. 😎

        Reply
  11. patupaiarehe

     /  2nd May 2016

    I find the Haka to be appropriate at Anything

    Except perhaps the ‘Circle Line Pub Crawl’ 😉

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  2nd May 2016

      Or the Ladies’ Knitting Circle.

      Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  2nd May 2016

        Now you’re just being silly Kitty 🙂
        BTW ‘manuhiri’ means ‘visitor/guest’

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  2nd May 2016

          Shit. I thought it meant hairy man. I think I’ve embarrassed myself on the local marae.

          Reply
          • Pickled Possum

             /  2nd May 2016

            Hahaha you are funni Gezza Just don’t go back to that local marae any time soon and if you do have a shave OK or say ..
            ” Did my twin, the good looking come here? ” LOL

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              You don’t understand. That’s what I kept calling the really important old guy with the beard. In my speech.

            • Pickled Possum

               /  2nd May 2016

              dash it al …l good looking ONE come here … edit is my friend

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              Would this be why they wouldn’t give me any kai Possum?

            • Pickled Possum

               /  2nd May 2016

              NO Kai Gezza well don’t know bout that one.
              Are you being serious?
              Having kai turns all things tapu – sacred noa – free ….

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              I know mate. Just joking of course. No one would be refused kai on the marae. Wouldn’t matter how badly they mucked up any attempt to speak Maori – they’d be welcomed to the hākari (feast).

            • Pickled Possum

               /  2nd May 2016

              Yes correct Gezza people who attempt to speak te reo and don’t usually speak it but have a go are most respected. All mistakes made with innocence? are just let go and the teller of the mistake is told in a gentle way of this … later and told oh but we knew what you meant.
              .
              The Hakari is most wonderful feast. The best one I have ever been to is at te Pokai at Turangawaewae marae in the wharekai called Kimiora where they can seat 1000 people at each sitting.
              But not the pirau-rotten corn. ewwwww smelly

              I have heard Pakeha men do a whaikorero in English and they are most appreciated as well. I have a great deal of respect for these men.

              The paepae is a very scary place to be for some learning and all people just want them to do the best they can … not like a speech made in front of your corporate peers where you are judged by your speech. Sometimes harshly.

          • patupaiarehe

             /  2nd May 2016

            LOL G, try ‘pahura tane’ instead 😉

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              Cheers pp. Think it’d be best for me lay low for a bit or maybe go to another marae like Possum says.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              I’m sure they would enjoy seeing you again G…

              No muri kē rātau i kata pai ai mo taua mea.

              which means

              They had a good laugh about it later

              😀

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Yeah I can’t go to the other marae. I’ve been told they pxtd my photo to all the local maraes & said this is the dork or whatever the maori is for that.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Um … am joking … BTW.

  12. Alan Wilkinson

     /  2nd May 2016

    Ok, I’ll put the challenge succinctly. Why dress up as our ancestors did two centuries ago and perform a ritual from that time? Are Maori to be frozen in time like this forever? Is it forbidden to Maori to innovate, modernise and differentiate or must they conform to conventions they can never change and adapt?

    Reply
    • MaureenW

       /  2nd May 2016

      “..is it forbidden for Maori to innovate, etc..”
      Perhaps they do Alan and you just don’t notice. Many of the Maori people I know are creative artistically and musically, continually innovating the output of these talents and keeping them fresh. What would you like to see?

      Reply
    • Gezza

       /  2nd May 2016

      I can’t answer for Maori but I know Maori who have no difficulty at all operating in accordance with tikanga on te marae and with equal ease operating in the pakeha environment as well. What we need is more such folk. Many more.

      Reply
    • patupaiarehe

       /  2nd May 2016

      OK then Alan. Game on 🙂

      Why dress up as our ancestors did two centuries ago and perform a ritual from that time?

      Heard of the Freemasons? It isn’t just a Maori thing….

      Is it forbidden to Maori to innovate, modernise and differentiate or must they conform to conventions they can never change and adapt?

      Nope, just ask Tainui… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Base_%28shopping_centre%29

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  2nd May 2016

        I think the Freemasons are struggling to survive at least in my town.

        Of course Maori can and do work and play in the modern world, so why not modernise their cultural icons and rituals accordingly?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  2nd May 2016

          Why?

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  2nd May 2016

            To prove you are actually alive?

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              That’s a bizarre comment. Care to elucidate Al?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  2nd May 2016

              I get bored very easily, Gezza. I love new things and ideas and generally exploring and making things. I have no interest in perpetually pretending to be old people. Surely there are Maori like me?

            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              @Alan
              I think that it is pretty common for folk of all ethnicities to pretend they aren’t old 😉

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              Yes there are Maori like you, Alan. Maori can experience both worlds. More of them are going to need to. It doesn’t mean they all need to abandon ritual in culturally appropriate Maori settings though. They don’t need to. Virtually all of them are already bi-lingual. They’re not stupid. They’re not “stuck in the past” by their culture. They can just get on with it when they have the skills and education and opportunities to do it. They’ll get there mate.

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              Actually I’ll correct that last post – most of them are already bi-lingual to a greater or lesser degree. Those I’ve met are fluent in both languages but some urban maori are not. They nevertheless in most cases have a reasonable working knowledge of te reo at least.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  2nd May 2016

              I’m sure some are already like me, Gezza. They don’t need to “get there”. They just need to be as liberated in official Maori culture as they are out of it.

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              That’s happening. Not without angst, in the regions, but it is happening. The tamariki have to move to get work and go back with different ideas.

        • patupaiarehe

           /  2nd May 2016

          @Alan
          Why should they? One could apply that exact same question to the Masons.

          Reply
      • MaureenW

         /  2nd May 2016

        You can add the royal family into that list, trooping of the colours and their endless other ceremonies that date back hundreds of years. Perhaps Al could give them a nudge next time they’re in town and tell them to stop conforming to old conventions.

        Reply
        • patupaiarehe

           /  2nd May 2016

          Lets not get started on the Catholics then……

          Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  2nd May 2016

          I visited England and decided it is really one big museum – interesting to visit but who would want to live in it?

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  2nd May 2016

            Approximately 57.4m million want to live in England
            (Scotland – 5.3 million
            Wales – 3.0 million
            Northern Ireland – 1.8 million)

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  2nd May 2016

              Yes, but they don’t know any better, Gezza. A friend of mine took a business visitor from the UK out fishing by Rangitoto and the guy went home, sold up and emigrated.

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              Frankly if I had really good fishing at Rangitoto and enough dosh I’d emigrate up there as well. The wind’s howling down here at the moment.

    • Pickled Possum

       /  2nd May 2016

      Al good question Does the queen Still do her traditional stuff that was performed many years ago for the people, does the Queen still wear the crown of long ago and do the men who surround her at these rituals still wear the clothes of that era also. Traditions are a link to the past and the meaning of them is knowledge for many who have none.
      Maori have been innovated by trends, Take the Merchants of Venice and the clothes words all done Maori but the story is still the same. All we see on the tv and in the msm is another powhiri going on, well it is not all that there is in Maoridom

      Te Matatini kapa – a line haka – dance this is an art form of Maori and is very innovated each year there is something new and amazing to watch.

      I realise sometimes when I Have to listen to another boring speech by a new manager or Ceo of my last work that every one won’t like te reo and the haka and everything that pertains to Maori … just like I don’t like listening to the boring heard it all before speech from the new kid on the block.
      But we live in a bi-cultural society here in NZ or at lest that’s what the keep telling us so I will live with Queenie Liz and all her old traditions with her old and traditional clothes as part of my culture to. 🙂

      Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  2nd May 2016

        Like I said earlier Possum,

        Kai runga noa ake koe i a au mo whakamarama

        which means

        You are much better than I at explaining

        🙂

        Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  2nd May 2016

        I would love to see Maori innovating and not stuck in the straitjacket of the past, Possum. Surely you don’t want to be a bizarre anachronism like the Royal Family forever playing someone else’s script?

        Reply
        • patupaiarehe

           /  2nd May 2016

          @Alan
          Perhaps by keeping their traditions alive, they are making a point of not ‘playing someone elses script’ ???

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  2nd May 2016

            Actually they are playing exactly the script expected of them by others. I think they should insist on the right to innovate. Even directors of Shakespearean plays are allowed and encouraged to be creative and innovative with them. I think it is stifling and oppressive that Maori are not.

            Reply
            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              Actually they are playing exactly the script expected of them by others

              Really Alan? What brings you to that conclusion?

            • @ Alan – Perhaps they’re busy ‘innovating’ where it will really count, like the new Constitution?

              Actually I think there’s plenty of innovation, e.g, the music industry? Watch Kapa Haka on Maori TV. I don’t think all those people are ‘forced’ to go do that. I think they want to. There’s innovation within the traditional framework. Choreography.

              Perhaps Maori are also expending some or much energy to preserve and conserve their language and traditions, whereas Pakeha ‘culture’ has gotten so indistinct and massive this cannot be accomplished in a co-ordinated way?

              “The train it won’t stop going though it could slow down”. So Richard Branson becomes a culture creator like Bill Gates and Roger Douglas …? It’s not quite the same … Ours is a ‘grey zone’ culture … what is left worth preserving …? [Its just a question. ie Labour Day?]

              I’m tempted to paraphrase you rudely Alan, “I think it is stifling and oppressive that Maori are not …………. ………… Pakeha?”

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  2nd May 2016

              They are hired to provide the traditional spectacle and do so.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  2nd May 2016

              You shouldn’t yield to temptation, PZ. It shows you ran out of ideas.

              Of course Maori can innovate. So why not a welcome that doesn’t mimic ancient scripts.

            • jamie

               /  2nd May 2016

              I’ve enjoyed reading this conversation, good questions and good answers.

              My 2c: Formal ceremonies do tend to be a bit traditional and stuffy regardless of culture. That’s kind of what I take “formal” to mean in that context.

              If we look at maori culture only in that context of formal ceremonies then we’re no more likely to see a lot of innovation there than we are in Parliamentary protocol, in a Catholic wedding or mass, or in a military parade. These things are deliberately traditional and (largely) stuck in the past by definition.

              If however we look at where maori culture interfaces with the arts, with architecture and design, with music, fashion, and jewellery, if we look at the modern stories told in kapa haka performances and the design and construction of modern racing waka ama, then the evidence of innovation and integration is all around us.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              Touche Jamie. BTW, it is on my ‘bucket list’ to pinch that big brass thing that gets carried into parliament before question time starts. Just to see if the country does actually come to a halt… 😉

        • Pickled Possum

           /  2nd May 2016

          Al jeepers

          bizarre – very strange
          anachronism – conspicuously old-fashioned.

          We are ‘playing’ that which is tikanga – right and correct way … to us and I would not Ever like to see it Gone Baby Gone 🙂
          Maori are innovative and not in a straitjacket of the past Al you just have to get out there to see it or not. 🙂
          I sometimes think that not many if any non Maori have any idea what Maori are about in the Real Marae Hapu Iwi world and just garner their views from the most shocking headlines. I guess Al this mish mash of cultures is what makes NZ unique and I for one celebrate it … most times.

          Reply
          • patupaiarehe

             /  2nd May 2016

            I’m sure the irony of watching a bunch of non-maori debate Maoridom isn’t lost on you Possum

            He koretake te pureitanga a te tīma.

            which means

            It was a poor performance from the team.

            🙂

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  2nd May 2016

              I’m not speaking for Maori as some others are here. I am questioning Maoridom and its apparent constraints on its members.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  2nd May 2016

            I would find it very strange to have to do things the correct way, Possum. I like to do things my way.

            Reply
            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              LOL, I’d never have guessed Alan 🙂

      • How far are we going to take this? I believe we could do away with Parliament as we know it, call it the House of Representatives or something else – almost anything else – so I reckon we can do away with the traditional opening of Parliament. Plenty of traditions can be ‘done away with’ and plenty have.

        Its perfectly fine for the individual Alan Wilkinson to love innovation, exploration and newness, and I have no doubt there are Maori individuals the same, I am in some ways and in othes not, but a nation cannot work this way unless it has sold out its own past …. sold its soul … and lo, that is exactly what we have partly [or largely?] done …

        Plenty of connections and ‘traditions’ have been lost, perhaps more informal ones? Long held community connections, neighbourhoods … the well and fair have been largely removed from ‘welfare’. The ‘fair’ has largely been removed from work and much of life. Work-to-live has become ‘Work-Life balance’ – note the new emphasis. Life itself has become a ‘market’ … The market economy has been replaced by the market society where everything becomes a commodity … even things that can’t be measured by ‘commodity’ standards.

        Interestingly, the rise of cultural, ethnic, ageist and gender ‘tribalism’ (as its often called and much frowned upon by many) has gone hand-in-hand with this neoliberal financialisation of everything. It is the counter-point, the necessary balance … humanity will inevitably assert itself.

        In the song ‘Hym to Her’ Chrissie Hynde sings, “Something is lost, something is found … Some things change, some stay the same”.

        To think of tradition/innovation as yet another either/or question is symptomatic yet again of the ‘reformed’ Kiwi mindset post-1984. Of course we can have both, tradition and innovation, and derivatives of both. We can do whatever we like. I think tradition will pervade politics for a while yet though …

        So the question for me becomes: Of all the surviving traditions, why would the Maori welcome Haka Pohiri be ripe for changing as opposed to so many other things? A symbolic act perhaps?

        Ahhhh, the PartisanZ of old … ψ

        Reply
        • patupaiarehe

           /  2nd May 2016

          Ahhhh, the PartisanZ of old … ψ

          Ka pai! Kua tae mai koe (Good! You’ve come.)

          Interestingly, the rise of cultural, ethnic, ageist and gender ‘tribalism’ (as its often called and much frowned upon by many) has gone hand-in-hand with this neoliberal financialisation of everything. It is the counter-point, the necessary balance … humanity will inevitably assert itself.

          Tribalism… I hate to say it, but I have noticed the words “us”, and “them” beginning to creep in to the comments on this thread. Just saying….
          So who is “us”, and who are “they”???

          Reply
          • Pickled Possum

             /  2nd May 2016

            Patupaiarehe the “us” I use is Maori and the “them” I may use is for the non Maori .. I don’t think it has been creeping in, it has been here for 176 years.

            Reply
            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              ‘Usual’ vs non ‘usual’ then, literally translated. IMHO it is ‘creeping out’, rather than in. A great example is how ‘late settlers’, of all ethnicities, are standing alongside their ‘early settler’ brethren, and celebrating Matariki, the REAL new year.

            • @ Patu – Yes, I see what you mean and I agree to some extent about “creeping out”. The rise in popularity of Matariki and a Southern Hemisphere ‘calendar’ is a great thing IMHO. We need to get real about where we live and who we are.

              However, and as well, I think we need to be wary of ‘surface tension’ … the smoothing of the surface of the pond might disguise deeper turmoil? In and of itself, Matariki won’t mean much if deeper issues for Maori are not addressed.

              IMHO these should be deeper issues for Pakeha too … simple as that … and the development of a Constitution is the perfect forum to address them in …???

            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              @PZ

              We need to get real about where we live and who we are

              Yup, and the sooner the better. We can start by not referring to ANY fellow kiwis as ‘them’……

            • We are all NZer’s but also people of different descent and chosen or inferred identity, Maori and Pakeha; Maori and European NZer – and within that Celtic, Scot, English, Irish – mixed race, mainland European – French, German, Dutch, Spanish etc – South African, Asian, South East Asian, Indian – and variously within that – Chinese, Korean, Middle Eastern, African … et al …

              I don’t think I can negotiate this bicultural-multiculturalism without using the word ‘them’ …? Its meaning, positive or negative (or mixed) is a matter of context Patu …

            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              As is everything PZ. A matter of context, that is…
              I have a Czeck friend, who is a little older than me. He lived through the Bosnian war, and loves NZ. Why? Because a white man is only that here, just another pakeha to most. Not like back home……

          • @ Patupaiarehe – a couple of things. I forgot to answer your earlier question, vis – “So rather than being a ‘dominant’ culture, one could also call it an ‘accommodating and inclusive’ one perhaps …?”

            1) It’s not one OR the other. Western culture [Western Christendom] is most certainly the dominant culture. Of this there can be no doubt. 2) I believe that history demonstrates cultures are highly selective about how accommodating and inclusive they are; and none more selective than British colonial culture!

            Hence, it is dominant AND accommodating and inclusive in some ways and not in others. For instance, when it came to obtaining Maori land, Pakeha culture was definitely not accommodating and inclusive much of the time and perhaps most of the time? It might instead be described as ravenous and duplicitous?

            “So who is “us”, and who are “they”???” Patu, I think these terms are fairly flexible. “Us” Goths, for instance, or “them” Grey Powers? “We” feminists? These are just some of the ‘tribal’ groupings that have emerged, interestingly, largely in neoliberal times. Others, I guess, have faded, like “we” unionists?

            In many cases I use “we” to refer to absolutely everyone, in others “we” Pakeha or non-Maori and “they” are Maori. Such distinctions don’t make us any less ALL citizens of Aotearoa-New Zealand … There are those for whom these are very real and divisive distinctions though, rest assured … and perhaps some for good reason …

            Actually, I think the phenomenon loosely called ‘tribalism’ is fascinating and I’m gonna do some research into it.

            Reply
            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              In many cases I use “we” to refer to absolutely everyone, in others “we” Pakeha or non-Maori and “they” are Maori. Such distinctions don’t make us any less ALL citizens of Aotearoa-New Zealand … There are those for whom these are very real and divisive distinctions though, rest assured … and perhaps some for good reason …

              Yes, those dirty old distinctions…..for good reason though?
              Lack of understanding isn’t a good reason. If one doesn’t understand, it would be a wise man’s choice to educate himself, or allow himself to be educated…..as we are being here….

        • Conspiratoor

           /  2nd May 2016

          I was wondering where he had gone. Welcome back parti boy

          Reply
        • Pickled Possum

           /  2nd May 2016

          @Parti yes the Parti of old with your candle stick holder thingy 😉
          yea I know its the sign of Partisan. just fooling with ya e hoa

          Are you then suggesting in your last paragraph that Maori welcome Haka Pohiri – powhiri is ready to be changed at the want of the …….. people of today? if so who has given ‘them’ the rights to do this? ‘Us’ or is this just another trying to re-write ‘our’ history?
          Symbolic Act – expressing or representing an idea or quality without using words.

          Are you going to do playlist today Parti? I miss the new music I have learnt from you Robby and others I have some new stuff you maybe or may not be interested in. 😎

          Reply
          • patupaiarehe

             /  2nd May 2016

            Here you go Possum & PZ 🙂

            Reply
            • Pickled Possum

               /  2nd May 2016

              Yaaa gramatik just love them with Led Zep ?? who would have thought ah and all his music is FREE ….So soulful Patupaiarehe
              Here is some Bosian boyz with words of No Escape from Balkan
              umm might be a bit to too heavy for this time of night but hey WTFudge

          • Gezza

             /  2nd May 2016

            Oi – why not me?

            Reply
          • @ Patupaiarehe – First, I hope the world someday escapes racism – hatred based on race – but IMHO it need never abandon ‘racialism’, which is simply racial distinction or discernment. Some people wish to indentify as Maori, some Black South African, some Innuit, some Scottish, some Pakeha or European New Zealander … etc. “Good reasons” are highly subjective things.

            Have you ever read any letters or articles by the likes on Doc Muriel Newman, Bruce Moon, Reuben Chapple and company on the subject of racial distinction, Te Tiriti o Waitangi, Constitution and the like? These people believe they have ‘good reason’ to dispute such things as “Treaty principles” etc etc etc …

            Likewise there are clearly people of Maori descent from iwi and hapu who believe they have good reason to continually struggle for their rights and compensation as a racial or ethnic entity or polity. Possum’s Whakatohea claims linked on here recently are a good example of this. There are many such instances …

            @ Possum – I am confused what you are asking me? I was using “we” in the very most general sense, “we” the human race can do what we want but since we don’t act as one, only individually and in groups, where a racial tradition is concerned it is the people of that race who decide …

            I think the fact our government holds to the tradition of Maori welcome is a very good sign, don’t you? It’s that “truth” which is hard to escape. The post-colonial world is coming around to facing that truth …???

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              ??? the ladies do that – PZ are you a bloke?

              Just joking kia ora e hoa. 😎

            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              @ PZ
              We seem to be ‘on the same page’ e hoa. Everyone has the right to identify with whatever they wish, but at the same time, we all need to learn to just get along with each other.
              Here’s a tune for Possum, PZ, and especially G, since he complained about being left out 🙂 “Watch the weather change….”

            • Pickled Possum

               /  2nd May 2016

              Ok Parti just checking on what your words were meaning sometimes as you know I am a little behind in catching up with the english language.
              Jezzz Gezza is getting cheeky ah Parti every one knows you are the ??????????? man that’s were us ladies learnt. 😉
              Good Night Parti see ya in the soup bro

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              A great example is how ‘late settlers’, of all ethnicities, are standing alongside their ‘early settler’ brethren, and celebrating Matariki, the REAL new year.

              That’s an interesting way of putting it pp. I just see Matariki as the start of the Maori New Year. It’s not the REAL new year to me because I’m still happy to operate off the Gregorian calendar and consider that the real New Year simply because it starts on I Jan, whatever’s happening astronomically.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              @G
              Without meaning to sound rude, you need to sharpen up and realise that the year begins halfway between the harvest, and the time for preparing your garden. A great time to reflect, seeing you don’t need to either reap, nor sow 😉

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              No I understand that pp. It’s just that I differentiate between the two for a different reason to you. The start of the growing season as one way of marking the beginning of a year is fine. So’s the Gregorian system. It makes just as much sense to me to co-ordinate the New Year with that Calendar as it does to mark time off Greenwich Mean Time or UTC.

            • Gezza

               /  2nd May 2016

              It’s been a good discussion this, from my point of view anyway. Gonna hit the sack. cheers for the Tool clip, nice. Ka kite apopo. 🙂

            • @ Gezza – I like to maintain an air of mystery about my gender, don’t you?

              But seriously, I recently visited the new Waitangi Museum with a dear friend of mine who is Maori. At the end of the wonderful museum experience I was deeply moved by this whakatauki or wise quote from Sir James Henare on a wall plaque –

              “kua tawhiti kë to haerenga mai, kia kore e haere tonu; he tino nui rawa o mahi, kia kore e mahi tonu – you have come too far not to go further; you have done too much, not to do more.”

              This is my answer to those retrograders who deny the 1975 Treaty of Waitangi Act, the Tribunal and ‘Treaty Principles’. Ka taea e anake tatou e haere atu i te wahi e inaianei tatou : We can only go further from where we are now …

              http://www.waitangi.org.nz/experiences/museum-of-waitangi

            • patupaiarehe

               /  2nd May 2016

              Well each to their own I guess G. Still, I would recommend going up a big hill just before dawn sometime in early June, and looking East.
              Use the new calendar, but appreciate the old one… Paper may burn & wilt, but the stars will remain……

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Don’t get me wrong pp. I think we should celebrate Matariki if we choose – I do. It is a New Year based on the stars. I do appreciate the old one … I just don’t see it as the only “real” one. Ma te wa

            • We’re quite lucky here ‘down under’ really. We get a winter ‘Matariki’ New Year and a summer Gregorian New Year. I’m not sure about astronomy but the winter one seems seasonally more appropriate to me. Still, happy to celebrate two!!!

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