DNA nails historic offender

DNA has solved a twenty year old offence. It turns out to be a repeat offender – as often seems to be the case in sexual offences.

NZ wrestler Devon Bond admits 1994 rape after DNA hit

Former New Zealand representative wrestler Devon Charles Bond has admitted the horrific 1994 rape of a Christchurch woman, after a cold case DNA match.

Bond, 49, pleaded guilty on Monday in the High Court at Christchurch, on the morning his jury trial was due to begin.

The Crown will ask the court to consider an open-ended preventive detention sentence because Bond has a 1995 conviction for abducting a woman he put into the boot of his car.

It’s good to see DNA evidence helping solve historic offences. I hope it continues to nail repeat sexual offenders.

What has become apparent with sexual offending is that there seems to be a relatively small number of men who have been usually getting away multiple offences.

Obviously this has been bad, very bad, for the mostly female victims.

It’s also been a bad look for men in general, with some claims suggesting that sexual assaults have been perpetuated by an alarming number of men.

I’d like to see analysis of statistics on this, but I suspect that a relatively small proportion of men are responsible for the majority of assaults, especially those that are at the more serious send end of the scale.

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109 Comments

  1. Nelly Smickers

     /  3rd May 2016

    Goodness, imagine just being out walking the dog and running into this…. o_O

    What a horrible looking CREEP!!

    http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201619/SCCZEN_020615SPLBOND

    Reply
    • Dougal

       /  3rd May 2016

      Link dead..

      Reply
    • Pickled Possum

       /  3rd May 2016

      Nelly I cannot do anything this morning till you tell us more of this horrible looking CREEP!!
      Surely I need to gaze my eye over this Thing that makes you say Goodness… to know when walking the dog I can instantly recognise HIM/HER/IT and run like …. that Bolt guy

      Reply
  2. Alan Wilkinson

     /  3rd May 2016

    This one, Possum.

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  3rd May 2016

      I suspect that if this photo had been described as the neigbourhood good guy, who was always there to help anyone out, that’s what people would see, a strong, kind face.

      If they were told that he was the Yorkshire Ripper, they’d see a man who was obviously a murderous pervert from his face.

      If he was shown with no information, as a laid-off worker perhaps, he would look like someone we all know, an ordinary person, neither a saint nor a sinner.

      If I was out walking and saw this man, I wouldn’t particularly notice him. That may be his strength & advantage-that he looks so ordinary and would be hard to describe in a way that would make him identifiable. .

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  3rd May 2016

        I was kerb-crawled by a very ordinary-looking man who didn’t stand out in any way. Had anyone been walking the dog and seen him walking past, they wouldn’t have taken him for someone who’d be a kerb-crawler. Needless to say that I wasn’t such a fool as to get in.

        Hee ! I walked up to a house and asked if I could come in because of Mr Creepy. By good luck, it was a Pasifika family having a family birthday party. Several enormous (All Black size) Pasifika men piled out to the road, and from what they said, Mr Creepy took off very fast indeed. Two of the men then walked me home in case he was still around. I bet it was a while before he did it again.

        .

        Reply
  3. Pickled Possum

     /  3rd May 2016

    YAAAAA another Baddie had been caught and will go to the Big House for the rest of his life. Well done DNA Data base.

    Rape within marriage is a crime now
    1 out of 3 girls may be sexually abused before she turns 16
    90% will be done by someone she knows and
    70% will involve genital contact
    .
    Remember the Canadian Policeman that said all women should stop dressing like sluts to avoid Rape, yes truly stupid man.
    How did the rapist know that the sleeping grandma was really dressed like a slut under her eiderdown? Stupid comments from a person that maybe looked at woman with a greasy eye.

    Or what about the other myth ‘well if your drunk your asking for it,’ Statistically woman get raped in their own home not out at night getting drunk and looking sluty.

    Since the focus on Family violence sexual violence has been left in the cold and and frontline resources are low, the most scary thing is that sexual violence and sexual deviant acts are being done with more frequency in Schools.

    Woman in this today society are at risk if they stay home go out dress sluty and get drunk F*#@k when are the men folk in woman’s lives gonna say Enough is Enough and say cut that offending part of me out/off ! The attitude of having power over someone vulnerable … what did you think I meant?
    Tho’ I do think for a serial rapist he should be castrated before being let out of prison once again. Harsh maybe, but the grief and change of life a young child teen woman raped in her home brings, in my mind is worth it.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  3rd May 2016

      The offending part is between the ears, Possum. The part that thinks using violence to get your way or win mana is ok. But I don’t think it is much more common than it ever was in most communities.

      Whether sexual or “just” physical assault, serial offenders should not be allowed to endanger future victims. If let out at all they should be subject to close and constant supervision.

      Reply
    • Gezza

       /  3rd May 2016

      Something for Possum. When you’ve looked at the first video, e hoa, scroll down & watch the second.
      https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/31498234/man-slapped-on-packed-bus-by-angry-women-after-alleged-harassment/
      Wahine tino Toa! (Very gutsy Xena!). Sorted.

      Reply
      • Pickled Possum

         /  3rd May 2016

        Gezza that vid was just great just what the doc ordered for my laff out loud muscles
        Jezz that guy never stood a chance she let him have it 123 and down he went,
        thanks for that.
        Yes Wahine tino Toa! like we all should-could be.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  3rd May 2016

          Did you notice where she let him have it with that kick? You can’t possibly have any idea Possum. Talk about wince to watch it! 😀

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  3rd May 2016

            That policeman was misquoted, and what he said was given a completely different meaning to what he intended. He was simply saying-be careful.

            Reply
            • Eliza M

               /  3rd May 2016

              The policeman said, and I quote, “You know, I think we’re beating around the bush here,” Michael Sanguinetti began, blandly enough, as he addressed the 10 students who turned up for the pep talk. Then he said: “I’ve been told I’m not supposed to say this – however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimised.”

              He later said, “I made a comment which was poorly thought out and did not reflect the commitment of the Toronto Police Service to the victims of sexual assaults,” Const. Michael Sanguinetti wrote on Thursday to Osgoode Hall Law School where he made the comment.

              Tell us kitty what he really meant….

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  3rd May 2016

              It was clumsily worded, but he was quoted as if he’d said that anyone who dressed in a certain way was asking for it.

              I wonder if the same outrage would have been caused by saying that in some places it’s unwise to flash a lot of money around because it may lead to mugging.

            • Pickled Possum

               /  3rd May 2016

              Well Miss Michael Sanguinetti could have said it differently then but I feel like he meant the words that flowed out of his mouth and then afterwards when the world went into a wild frenzy over those words said OH I didn’t mean what I said I meant this ….. be careful with the word slut in there for emphasis yea right
              yea nah Miss a lot of people think what he first said or was reported to say. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/06/slutwalking-policeman-talk-clothing
              and the 1 in 3 1 out of 3 girls may be sexually abused before she turns 16 stats are from NZ in 2012 stats report from memory but then you must know my memory is a little wonky at times bit like yours I think.

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  3rd May 2016

      The one in three is a wrong statistic (ever noticed that these things are so often one in three ?) that came from a very small number of answer to a loaded survey. It was used in a Telethon, even though the compilers knew that it was false. They managed to include things like someone hearing adults having sex (the adults being unaware of this), finding dad’s Playboys hidden in his wardrobe, walking into the bathroom and seeing a naked adult, being kissed by grandparents when you didn’t want to be and other such things as sex abuse. What an insult to real victims, to class snooping and finding a Playboy with what happened to them. The survey makers couldn’t credibly claim one in two, so they made it one in three.

      Reply
      • Eliza M

         /  3rd May 2016

        For a ‘wrong statistic’ it features in a few surveys.
        http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/20/health/global-violence-women/
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11343380/Sexually-assault-1-in-3-UK-female-students-victim-on-campus.html

        P.S the telethon statistic was 1 in 4
        [“What people have begun questioning is the epidemic-like proportions of psychologist Miriam Saphira’s declaration that one in every four children will be sexually abused”]

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  3rd May 2016

          Whether it was 3 or 4,Miriam Saphira later admitted that she had falsified these numbers to make them sound better as the real numbers didn’t sound credible, which is not surprising. Finding a dirty magazine that’s been hidden from your prying eyes is sex abuse ? I hardly think so. She and the other woman involved fiddled the numbers, and by not making it clear that it included things like the magazine finding made it seem like genuine sex abuse.She did a vast amount of harm and created an atmosphere of fear-fear of being abused, fear of being called an abuser.

          The one in three university students has been challenged. As one study had the chances increasing with every year there, anyone who did post-graduate studies was pretty well guaranteed to be raped if she was fool enough to stay on that long.

          Reply
          • Eliza M

             /  3rd May 2016

            Please read the WHO story, (first link) before you post anything else. I’m not interested in a telethon from the 80’s, this is the WHO from 2013. Get with the play.

            Reply
      • I doubt we’ll ever know the true extent of ‘genuine’ or criminal sexual abuse Miss Kitty because it depends so much on reporting. Hence the practicality, accessibility and destigmatisation of reporting becomes the important issue, along with the safety and justice processes that accompany reporting and making any such allegations, plus available treatment for victims and possibly perpetrators too, along with their punishment.

        Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  3rd May 2016

        And, of course, destroyed the innocence of a generation,.with many fathers and grandfathers now unwilling to do things like bathing their grandchildren as fathers-who are, in fact the smallest number of sex abusers of children-were demonised.

        There is, of course, no excuse for any child/adult sex, even if the child is a willing partner which some are-the adult taking advantage of this, whether they are man or woman, is still a paedophile. I couldn’t understand how that footballer was given 6 years for having sex once with a girl of 15 when a schoolmistress who seduced a boy of 15, had sex with him many tims and was charged in the UK at the same time was given a fine and community work although she was said to have totally messed up the boy who would never be the same again.

        Reply
        • Miss Kitty – Aside from the enormous White Elephant of somehow enabling perpetrator self-awareness and self-reporting … Everything I’m reading is affirming my belief the most important thing is to facilitate ‘victim’ reporting, preferably before they become victims?

          Not just reporting of a crime afterwards but creating ways through education, legal and social agencies or processes – somehow – so people are aware and so adults and especially children can report ‘precursor’ activity, ‘grooming’ and the like … Prevention and protection …

          Reply
  4. patupaiarehe

     /  3rd May 2016

    Individuals such as him should be dragged out behind the courthouse, and shot IMHO. They will never change, and don’t deserve a chance to anyway.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=11632391
    Anyone who puts another human being through that doesn’t deserve to live.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  3rd May 2016

      Not gonna happen. Wonder how long his previous prison sentence was & how much of it he served. I think after two the testicular fix should be applied.

      Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  3rd May 2016

        Why after the second one? Doesn’t committing this sort of crime once indicate that an individual has no empathy, nor regard for anyone but themselves? As a taxpayer, I object to my money being used to house and feed these bastards. Not to mention paying for their endless appeals and parole board hearings….

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  3rd May 2016

          Would that make a difference ? It can be done in other ways if someone is determined to do it. Look at Graham Capill who convinced himself that it wasn’t rape because he used his finger. This may or may not have been less traumatic, but I’d imagine that it would be a sickening memory for the girl/s to whom he did it and if it was less traumatic, it wouldn’t be much less.

          Reply
        • Gezza

           /  3rd May 2016

          @ pp Why after the second one?
          Actually I think this historic offence he’s been done for now was committed before he abducted the other woman who fortunately escaped. If he’d been done for both of them at the same I’d volunteer to do the removal myself with a pen-knife.

          But regarding your question, because one makes them a horrible bastard derserving of mucho timeo in the pokey, but it doesn’t automatically qualify them as a recidivist. If they got a proper psychological assessment inside & this revealed their problem was background & upbringing, for example, they can be shown the harm they caused and be released on serving their sentence to go on to never do it again.

          If, on the other hand the problem’s pathological, and they’re psychopathically/psychologically addicted to such behaviour, therapy is fruitless. But often the only way we find out if the problem’s pathological is when the swine do it again. That’s when I’d bring in the chemos, the bricks or the knife, don’t care which.

          If that’s not possible, then if we had the means to do a proper psychological assessment, & this showed personality disorders like mentioned above, IMO we need to be able under the law to lock them up forever, or at least until they’re too old or otherwise too disabled to be any danger to children and women.

          Corrections released that psychopathic killer Graeme Burton, who’d already killed someone, scored high on the psychopathy test, had ordered a “hit” on two prison guards, and badly hurt several inmates, who were too scared to report on him – so he could go on a murderous rampage down here.

          The law should prevent someone like him, or an un-castrated serial rapist from ever being released. And I’d vote for the death penalty for someone like Burton or Bell any day. Removes an curable dangerous disease from society, cures recidivism, and saves money.

          Reply
          • patupaiarehe

             /  3rd May 2016

            But regarding your question, because one makes them a horrible bastard derserving of mucho timeo in the pokey, but it doesn’t automatically qualify them as a recidivist. If they got a proper psychological assessment inside & this revealed their problem was background & upbringing, for example, they can be shown the harm they caused and be released on serving their sentence to go on to never do it again.

            Pardon my ‘french’ G, but you can fuck right off with that BS. When an individual shows complete contempt for the basic human rights of another, they should forfeit their own, and be put down like the sick animal they are.

            Reply
        • Gezza

           /  3rd May 2016

          *incurable dangerous disease …

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  3rd May 2016

            I’m not pardoning your french. Young men brought up in, and/or exposed to an environment like gangs, where brutality, domination and rape are the dominant themes of their lives, who believe this is how their world operates, and that this is the right way for a tough guy to behave on the mean streets of life, are not unsaveable.

            Reply
            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              Sorry to say it G, but that bleeding heart of yours hopefully bleeds to death on this particular issue.
              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10392832
              This bastard got another chance, and look what happened…
              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11489136

            • Pickled Possum

               /  3rd May 2016

              @ Patupaiarehe
              This is the case that stands out to me about how the judicial system lets down so many. On bail for murder then murders a young child FFS Broken young men IF helped before they become recidivist is money well spent for the betterment of society as a whole I think. 🙂
              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10877752

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              @ pp What was his psychological assessment after the first one? It should have showed he was precisely the sort of pyschopath I have said should never be released, or it’s not legally possible to have them die in there (my actual preference), not released until he’s so completely decrepit or so completely disabled he’s no threat to anyone any more.

              Let me put it this way, pp. What are the chances of your solution of all people convicted of rape being immediately taken out the back and shot, vs mine of establishing whether they are pathologically incurable rapists and should be either castrated or locked up forever (I don’t give a rats arse if someone shivs them in prison, good riddance)?

              And if they’re neither of those mentioned in para 2 above, spending a bloody good long period in jail and only being released when it’s really clear to more than one psychologist that they understand the enormity of the harm they caused & they will never ever do it again?

            • Patupaiarehe, I’d define this as a systemic failure in relation to this individual offender, Tony Robertson, and yes, I admit there are some and perhaps even many other examples.

              Reintroduction of the death penalty would be a systemic failure in relation to absolutely everyone in our society, all 4.5 million of us, man, woman and child.

              Here’s a Herald article linked on your second one above, ‘Harsher penalties might result from Tony Robertson enquiry’ –

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11489443

            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              @Possum
              I remember that one too, very well. MUCH too close to home for comfort. It was an associate of mine who went to the cops after Curran confessed to him that he had killed Natasha up at the falls. My mate couldn’t believe that he got bail, because “That guy is one sick fuck”. His words, not mine.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              And as for Robertson, a psychopathic killer I suspect, as I have said – off with the bastard’s head.

    • Conspiratoor

       /  3rd May 2016

      “Individuals such as him should be dragged out behind the courthouse, and shot”.

      Pat, I’m suddenly warming to you, you are part of the solution. As my good friend Ali would say “Restecp”

      Reply
  5. patupaiarehe

     /  3rd May 2016

    Don’t get me started on paedos Kitty.
    Here’s some real justice for you….

    The ‘offender’ got two years for that. He should have got a medal IMHO

    Reply
    • Gonna dissent here as I so often do. Medical or chemical castration should be an option available to the justice department for recidivist offenders, possibly as early as second offence, maybe even first offence in some cases? Psychological assessment will be a given in any such decisions. Ideally the offender will agree to it, as I believe some do?

      Be it medical or chemo or life without parole the important thing to bear in mind is public safety. Is the offender a danger to others?

      But the attack on Graham Capill in the clip above is absolutely NOT “real justice”, despite all the perceived weaknesses of our established system. Before you know it people will feel justified in attacking any ‘perp’ for any reason they see fit, ‘leftie’ politics, environmental exploitation or brown skin? In doing so they become a ‘perp’ themselves in the eyes of the law and rightly so.

      Vigilante justice and the death penalty are slippery slopes, very very slippery indeed.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/capitalpunishment/against_1.shtml

      Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  3rd May 2016

        Vigilante justice and the death penalty are slippery slopes, very very slippery indeed.

        They certainly are PZ, and I think returning to the days of ‘witch trials’ and lynchings would be a big step backwards. However, in the clip above, Mr Capill had just been convicted, and remanded at large awaiting sentencing. So he was guilty, and deserved what he got IMHO

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  3rd May 2016

          I remember watching that when it happened on tv and thinking there ya go mate you bloody deserved that. But, out of interest, what was the connection between his assailant and Capill. I don’t recall seeing that anywhere.

          Reply
        • @ Patu – “So he was guilty, and deserved what he got IMHO”

          We could have all convicted offenders receive a public beating from all-and-sundry outside the courthouse? Or perhaps reintroduce the stocks?

          Reply
        • Klik Bate

           /  3rd May 2016

          However, maybe we COULD actually take a leaf out of Iran’s book, as to how to take care of convicted Rapists and Murderers. There are at least a few aspects of their Justice System that you can only admire.

          Here’s 4 low-life scum that will never rape a woman again – does anyone actually have a problem with that?

          Reply
          • Fairly obvious question for you Klik: How come there are still rapists and murderers in Iran?

            Count me out of your admiration club.

            Reply
            • Klik Bate

               /  3rd May 2016

              At least their recidivism rate is well down PartiZ 🙂

          • Klik Bate

             /  3rd May 2016

            I assume the image showing a public hanging in Tehran is awaiting PG’s moderation?

            Reply
            • @ Klik – Sick says as sick does as sick is. I’m happy for your sick image to stay in moderation.

  6. Alan Wilkinson

     /  3rd May 2016

    First, I oppose the death penalty because the justice system makes too many mistakes and it is necessary to be able to remedy them.

    Second, I believe no-one who puts others at serious risk should be released from prison. The way I would like to see it handled would be to put all violent offenders up for management tender to private enterprise, the successful tenderer being financially responsible (and have to put up a bond) for any crime committed while under their management. Those who can most successfully rehabilitate or supervise the offender would profit. If no-one is prepared to tender or the cost is prohibitive, the offender simply stays in jail.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  3rd May 2016

      Psychopaths appear to be more common in the general population than generally realised. Some of their classic traits are useful and they can do very well in business and in other roles e.g. the military where they often fit in well. Psychopathic killers are another kettle of fish. They are pathologically dangerous for life, as Graeme Burton amply demonstrates. Save society, save other prisoners, save money – take them out. That’s my position on it.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  3rd May 2016

        My position is that the cost of jailing such people for life is the price of being able to correct gross miscarriages of justice and is therefore worth paying.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  3rd May 2016

          The problem is not with the death sentence but who it should apply to Alan. A psychopathic killer is a particular type. The death penalty should not be applied to some other types of murderer, life in prison (or a significant proportion of their life in prison may be appropriate, and it allows for those who have been wrongly convicted to at least appeal their case. Most psychopathic killers, because of their personality traits, refuse to see that there is absolutely no doubt they did the deed. Some have been caught on camera and still think they will somehow outwit a jury.

          Will executing PK’s happen, in our Justice system? Probably no, but I’d be very pleased if it did.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  3rd May 2016

            “A psychopathic killer is a particular type.”

            If you think psychology is a sufficiently exact science in such definitions and diagnosis I believe you are completely deluding yourself.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              When it comes to psychopathic killers – and the assessment must be by more than one psychologist, maybe three – I believe the personality disorder is clearly diagnosable. If you think I am deluding myself, I respect your opinions but I disagree.

              Nevertheless I don’t think the death penalty would be brought in here for psychopathic killers, so we must continue to expose corrections officers, other prisoners, anybody visiting the prison (given the probability there will be lapses in security – to risk. If, because of lapses in the system they are released and – god forbid – other innocent people encounter as happened when they released Graeme Burton, when they clearly shouldn’t have the best risk management for people with Graeme Burton’s problem is cessation of his existence.

            • Pickled Possum

               /  3rd May 2016

              “Psychopaths commit an offence, go to prison, then come out and commit the offence again, because they fail to learn from the prison experience,said PhD student Benjamin Walker.”

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11115743

              “Richard Branson and Charles Manson may have something more in common than rhyming surnames and big hair”

              When I first read this a few years ago I thought hmmmm could this possible be true. Truth is stranger than fiction, it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t. Mark Twain

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              In fact there is not even an accepted professional definition and diagnosis of psychopathy which pretty much puts paid to your justification.

              Although no psychiatric or psychological organization has sanctioned a diagnosis titled “psychopathy”, assessments of psychopathic characteristics are widely used in criminal justice settings in some nations, and may have important consequences for individuals. The study of psychopathy is an active field of research, and the term is also used by the general public, in popular press, and in fictional portrayals.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              I’ve read that, and I’ve read other stuff. We disagree.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              I should clarify, it’s not the issue of what constitutes psychopathy, including vs sociopathy, it’s the characteristics of psychopathic killers that are recognisable.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              Well, I have the support of the relevant professions. You appear to have only your belief.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              You can’t know they are killers until you assume the conviction is sound but it may not be. You have a circular definition that is unusable.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              I’m not sure who your professional advisers are & how much about this you have discussed with them but recommend you find out about and observe the behaviour of Messrs Bell & Burton.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              And forget the warning. Right now I am writing you out a ticket for that airborne car. 😎

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              Your (next) problem is that you cannot write a law that will impact only Messrs Bell and Burton.

              As for your ticket, my Escort Passport picked you up over a kilometre away. I was back on the ground long before you caught sight of me.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Your (next) problem is that you cannot write a law that will impact only Messrs Bell and Burton.

              I know, firstly I’m not a parliamentary drafting counsel, and secondly there will not be sufficient public support for it.

              Re airborne I am getting a longer range camera. 😎

        • My position is largely as per the bbc article I linked earlier. What are just some of the things we already know about the death penalty? Well, we know –

          – if it’s not morally wrong it is at very best morally dubious.

          “We cannot teach that killing is wrong by killing.”
          – U.S. Catholic Conference
          “To take a life when a life has been lost is revenge, it is not justice.”
          – Attributed to Archbishop Desmond Tutu

          – it does not deter crime, otherwise America wouldn’t have so many murderers, Indonesia so many drug runners or Iran so many rapists. Scientific evidence backs this up.

          – indeed, it will encourage some capital crime in the form of “suicide by capital punishment”. Evidence suicide by police in the USA.

          – Legal processes around it, like establishing absolute guilt and court appeals, are extremely expensive, leastwise in the USA

          – It is applied unfairly, leastwise in the USA …

          and all the rest in that article …

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  3rd May 2016

            @ PZ
            ” – if it’s not morally wrong it is at very best morally dubious.”
            Psychopathic killers are dangerous. Always. To other prisoners, to the staff who have to supervise them, to everybody. With them, it’s not a moral issue, it’s a safety one.

            Reply
            • @ Gezza – A moral or ethical wrong is a moral or ethical wrong.

              Under our justice system capital punishment could only apply to crimes defined as capital crimes, not to particular individuals deemed or diagnosed as psychopathic murderers. Sorry, it just doesn’t wash …

              This is one instance where the cost saving of not imprisoning a few people for life with no parole, but rather killing them, simply won’t compensate for the “brutalising of individuals, society and the law” and all the other factors weighted against the death penalty as per the bbc article.

              This was all worked out long ago and we gave it up in the late 50s. Thank the Lord. Those who want the Death Penalty reinstated are fighting a losing battle, a rearguard action against an ‘enemy’ long gone. They would do better to lend their energy to Garth McVicor and the Sensible Sentencing Trust.

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              What is morally or ethically wrong with being a psychopathic murderer PZ. When it’s not curable. And they’re always dangerous. We put down rabid dogs because they’re dangerous. When it comes to valuing human life because it’s a higher life form, I don’t see psychopathic killers as coming in that category.

  7. patupaiarehe

     /  3rd May 2016

    I don’t get upset easily, but this thread is touching a nerve. I’m not going to explain why. So don’t ask.
    IMHO an amendment to the sentencing act is needed. A provision for the death penalty, where guilt is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt, and the crime (or the intent behind it) shows a complete disregard for the human rights of another. Maybe a provision also for ‘restorative justice’, or ‘utu’, as the early settlers call it…
    Time for a few minutes away from here, cya all later

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  3rd May 2016

      Guilt is rarely proven beyond any shadow of doubt and where it is, new or corrected evidence may still overturn it. Far too many death row inmates have eventually been proven innocent.

      Project Innocence alone has overturned 341 erroneous convictions and resulted in 147 real perpetrators subsequently being convicted.

      http://www.innocenceproject.org/

      Obviously you have suffered a grievous crime directly or indirectly. Being the cause of other innocent people being killed even unintentionally is not a good response.

      Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  3rd May 2016

        Guilt is rarely proven beyond any shadow of doubt and where it is, new or corrected evidence may still overturn it. Far too many death row inmates have eventually been proven innocent.

        Fair enough Alan, everyone should have the right to an appeal…
        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11619107
        The following quote is from that article…

        When it got to appeal, Robertson kept the same objections – and also claimed he was so wasted on drugs it was impossible to have an intent to murder and that Mrs Gotingco was possibly dead before being stabbed.
        The shocking consequence of the latter claim was Robertson’s assertion that no rape could have happened because if it did, then Mrs Gotingco had already died and a rape victim had to be living.

        Poor old Tony, he’s just a bad driver & a necrophiliac. Why not give him another chance???

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  3rd May 2016

          Misrepresentation, the right is not to an appeal or to another chance, but to be kept alive in custody in case new or corrected evidence is discovered or uncovered.

          Reply
          • patupaiarehe

             /  3rd May 2016

            So you think Mr Robertson should be kept alive then Alan? Just in case….

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              Yes, because however much you believe he deserves it, the consequences of what you would change the law to create would inevitably result in someone innocent being killed.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              @Alan
              I know what you are saying. And I almost agree with you. However…
              I still think we need to bring back capital punishment, but the burden of proof should be upon the prosecution. And the evidence needs to be WELL beyond a reasonable doubt. Not just her saying “It was him”(if she is still alive). And not just DNA either, as accurate as some think it is, contamination does (allegedly) happen…
              And GPS trackers aren’t always that accurate. If they were, the cops might have helped that Asian girl who had her iphone pinched last week….

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              Nothing is assured proof unfortunately. Confessions, visual identification and DNA have all suffered failures, some notoriously frequent. Evidence has been planted, suppressed and fabricated.

              Allowing the guilty to live is the cost of not killing innocents. I believe that is the only just choice for a nation’s citizens in peacetime.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              OK Alan, lets just agree to disagree then. I am against killing innocent people too. But filthy rapist bastards deserve to die. Slowly and painfully by the hands of their victims male relatives. ‘Nuff said….

            • Eliza M

               /  3rd May 2016

              Alan, the innocence project, and the figures associated with it, come from the United States where they have such things as bail bonds, bills for time spent in prison on bail awaiting charges, plea bargains, and the largest per capita prison population. Many poor people take a plea because they can’t afford to stay in prison pre-trial any longer, and they are only in there because they couldn’t afford the bond.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              Absolutely they deserve to. But sometimes for very good reason we cannot give what is deserved. That doesn’t absolve them in any way but it does honour your own judgement and integrity. Put all your anger into doing good for those you love.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              @Alan

              Put all your anger into doing good for those you love.

              I do mate. It is pointless getting angry over something you can do nothing about.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              @Eliza, most of those proven innocent were serving long sentences:
              http://www.innocenceproject.org/all-cases/

              Yes, it was the US but NZ also has a high imprisonment rate and it is not credible that there have not been a significant number of miscarriages of justice here – unfortunately without a similar project to identify and remedy them. The UK and Scotland have done tackled the problem too. NZ has ignored it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              @patupaiarehe, I wish you the best. Valid anger is not pointless if used productively and constructively.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              Thanks Alan. You get it.

            • Eliza M

               /  3rd May 2016

              NZ has 202 prisoners per 100 000 – total 9360.
              If we shared the US’s rate, 698/100 000 we’d have 32 700 prisoners.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  3rd May 2016

              @Eliza, true, but our rate is 30% higher than England, Scotland and Australia. The first two have also demonstrated miscarriages of justice in a similar fashion to the US.

            • Eliza M

               /  4th May 2016

              It’s actually 25%, but…The innocence project isn’t a state initiative, it was started by two lawyers. If this is a subject so close to your heart then why don’t you bring the project to NZ – you always talk of letting private interests work without state intervention, time to put your money where your mouth is. Get these poor people free.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  4th May 2016

              Your maths is wrong. The rate for the others is 150. Our increase over that is 50 which is a 33% increase. Our rate would have to decrease by 25% to reach theirs..

              Innocence projects pretty much have to be run by lawyers and law students to be viable. That is not my profession. I use my time to help people in the areas I have skills and expertise.

            • Eliza M

               /  4th May 2016

              Percentages have never been my strong point.
              A project like that still needs someone on the ground to get the ball rolling, a catalyst, go find a bleeding-heart lawyer or two and convince them. Or do nothing and wait in vain for the system to work itself out.
              Teina Pora’s lawyer might not take much convincing.

    • Pickled Possum

       /  3rd May 2016

      Kia kaha my friend When I am up the Coast visiting whanau I can look out of my front door and look out at the Moana – ocean and see Whakaari – White Island. I have seen the Tohora – Whales glide past on their way to somewhere for a kai. Majestic a precious treasure, they are the ones to let us know when things are not right in the world. I know you know this waiata but I send it to you now.

      Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  3rd May 2016

        Kiaora Possum. kai te aha koe?
        Aroha te waiata, ataahua.

        Reply
        • patupaiarehe

           /  3rd May 2016

          Before anyone has a moan…

          Hello Possum, how are you?
          Love the song, beautiful.

          Reply
        • Gezza

           /  3rd May 2016

          I got what are you eating 🙂

          Reply
          • patupaiarehe

             /  3rd May 2016

            consuming G

            Reply
            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              kai te aha koe?

              translated word for word is

              consuming the anything you?

              So it’s all about context, and pronounciation really….
              So if I type it in a comment to Possum, I’m saying “How are you enjoying ‘consuming the anything’ that is yourNZ”.
              If I were walking down my driveway, past my Maori neighbour, and I smelt marijuana, I would yell “kai aha koe e hoa!”.
              After a second or two of silence, I would expect to hear laughter, and te tane o te whare (the man of the house) yell “Haere mai e hoa!”
              It’s cool to korero 😉

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Fair enough then. I was taught to use kei te pehea a koe – some omit the “a” – how are you?

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Literally, I got – “what you eat”? 🙂

            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              Stop using google translate then G, LOL 😀

            • Conspiratoor

               /  3rd May 2016

              You must have been raised on the east coast G. Up my way it’s e pehea ana koe

          • Gezza

             /  3rd May 2016

            I knew it was wrong pp, it should’ve been eat what you. 🙂

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Actually from what I can see, while GTM handles context badly, it handles syntax well. Dunno how they manage that. 🙂

            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              If I were you, I’d just stick to ngata.
              http://www.learningmedia.co.nz/ngata/
              Made in NZ, as are many other good things… 🙂

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Ngata doesn’t deliver enough in the way of conversational Maori to be useful for translating day to day conversations. Both it and Te Aka are worthwhile for checking meanings of individual words and short 2-4 word compound phrases, and I sometimes use them for that.

              so, kei te pehea a koe, e hoa? (How are ya mate?)

            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              I’m feeling a bit better G. Don’t underrate ngata. What I like about ngata, is that you can type in a word, and it gives you examples of that word in a sentence. And once you’ve used it for a while, you start to recognise some of the other words. Then one day, you recognise all of them, and think, “Duh, why did you have to look that up!” 😉

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Pai kupu āwhina, e hoa. (Good advice mate) 🙂

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              It’s not much different from English, when you look at what we actually say.
              e.g. How do you do? :/ (How do you do what</i??)

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              You must have been raised on the east coast G. Up my way it’s e pehea ana koe
              Raised in Taranaki C. But got taught that phrase at a short training course on te reo in Wellington a few years back – trainer’s iwi unknown.. Never got much opportunity to use what little we learned, but that one stuck in my memory. I should really find out what Taranaki iwi use.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  3rd May 2016

              I hope that you ‘Korero te reo’ (speak the language) as you type it G…
              Just to get the feeling of it…

            • Gezza

               /  3rd May 2016

              Course I do mate. Helps the typing. I pronounce your moniker to type it correctly, Never fails (unless I make an accidental spello).

            • Gezza

               /  4th May 2016

              A wee bit of tāhuhu kōrero (history) on GTM, patupaiarehe

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maori

              Initially GTM didn’t have macrons but these do appear now. One can send in edit suggestions when using it. I’d encourage you to do this.

              Suggested changes don’t always result in immediate and permanent updates. One of my suggested additions to their lexicon did get added, but was then removed a day later, so I think there’s probably a community of Maori language speakers / experts who advise on updates, that someone at the other end cocked up by entering my addition into the system without consulting the team, and that the change was therefore overruled.

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