Clinton v Trump, round 1

There has been massive coverage of and commentary on the first US presidential debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. Will it change anything? We wil have to wait to find out.

Clinton sounds like a PC electronic checkout; Trump like a drunken uncle from a side of the family you try to avoid.

I didn’t watch the debate and have only seen small bits of it, but from what I did see and hear Clinton was a practiced, smug and smarmy establishment candidate. She won’t have lost committed support but I don’t know whether she will have won many over either.

Trump emphasised his boofishness and what must be a deliberate strategy to lie profusely.

One bizarre aspect of the debate was that Trump denied having said something (I can’t remember which brazen lie it was), and it was shown shortly afterwards that tweets from him that prove he was lying were being deleted from his Twitter account.

Prior to the debate there was interesting string of tweets from @gtiso on the Italian election of Silvio Berlusconi in 1994.

Berlusconi’s secret weapon leading into the 1994 elections was he worked out he could just lie all the time. The whopper the better.

He worked out that the state media would be paralised by the imperative to provide balance and powerless to correct him, while his opponents were left in a state of permanent impotent outrage, both at being lied about and at the fact that he was getting away with it.

So they, and the portion of the non-state media aligned with the left, just spent the campaign repeating “this man can’t be prime minister”.

Result: he won in the closest thing we could get in our system to a landslide. Hey, does any of this sound familiar?

To give you an idea of the caliber of lying: he said over and over that the communists had been in power in Italy for the previous 50 years.

This was, obviously, the opposite of the truth. But in no time at all I started hearing people repeating it in my neighbourhood.

The Brexit campaign adopted similar tactics, now Trump. But I’m shocked it took so long for such a simple idea to be exported.

How many Americans don’t care about politicians lying? Enough to turn their politics and their presidency upside down?

I’m not a US voter but I think I share a common sentiment – I don’t particularly like Clinton, nor what she stands for in politics. But I fear for the effect that a President Trump would have on the United States, and how that would flow on to impact on the world.

Credible democracy is already the loser, but perhaps we ain’t seen nothing yet.

The US election may hinge on how many of those who despair at what they are witnessing turn out to vote versus how many turn away from the election .

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36 Comments

  1. David

     /  28th September 2016

    Burlesconi also owned all the other TV stations in Italy outside the state system amongst his other media assets. Its an interesting comparison an ageing businessman running a country as Burlesconi was arguably the best Italy had had for decades, he shook up the status quo and put an end to Italy getting 28 governments in 42 years and provided some much needed stability and he was re-elected.

    Reply
  2. Corky

     /  28th September 2016

    I previously said the presidential debates would decide who’d win the presidency. Yesterday it dawned on me most folk had already made their minds up. The debates were in reality, street theatre, and will have minimal impact on the elections. They will just reinforce voters prejudices.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  28th September 2016

      To a large extent that is true which is why I said beforehand that the media will report the debate as a win for Clinton but we will have to wait to see the poll results to know which way it pointed. As I said before, it will all depend on whether it pressed the right buttons for the right people. There is no impact from pressing the same buttons for the same people.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  28th September 2016

        This focus group of undecideds confirms my comments:
        http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article104382951.html

        “Winning” the debate is not the same as winning votes.

        Reply
      • Corky

         /  28th September 2016

        The sad thing for Trump was he made some very good emotional appeals regarding the economy. Things ordinary people could understand. He then blunted that appeal by rambling on.
        Who the fug wanted to know his 10 year old son is good with computers? Not America.
        If he would just listen to his handlers he would be able to match, at the least, Hillary. Add some of his emotional appeal to that, and be concise. Hey Presto, a statesman. A step too far for Donald, I think.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  28th September 2016

          The pair of them are an indictment on the rot that is now the American political system.

          I did get the impression though that Lester Holt favoured Hillary.

          Reply
  3. Klik Bate

     /  28th September 2016

    The MSM would have you believe otherwise

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtYJxrOVIAApKMO.jpg.

    Reply
  4. Gezza

     /  28th September 2016

    One commenter on Aljaz this morning pointed out that Hillary showed in her debates with Sanders that she is quite capable of getting into the rough & tumble when she wants to, but for this debate she had deliberately chosen to *look presidential*, which she is capable of doing. On the other hand, he noted, while Trump has occasionally been *pulled back a bit* by his minders after getting too outrageous, for a speech or two, during this debate, Trump was “as Presidential as he gets”.

    He considered two more performances like that will see Clinton elected. The fact-checkers will beat Trump.

    PG, the lie he told and that they were trying to cover up by deleting his tweets is that he has posted several apparently saying that Climate Change is a lie that was started by the Chinese to destroy American manufacturing.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  28th September 2016

      Terrible fib. Climate change is a lie that was started by the Europeans to destroy the UK coal industry and supported by the Greens to destroy the global oil industry.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  28th September 2016

        Whatever. Trumpy’s bumpy bit is that he categorically said he’d never said that & they couldn’t pull the tweets showing that was untrue fast enough to stop them getting spotted and copied.

        Reply
      • Conspiratoor

         /  28th September 2016

        It wouldn’t be hard to turn this terrible fib into a little fib without losing any impact. Whose advising the guy?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  28th September 2016

          Trump? Trump.

          Reply
          • Conspiratoor

             /  28th September 2016

            I guess I walked into that one G

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  28th September 2016

            As far as I can make out, it’s true, c. His ego is his biggest enemy. Only Trumpy would interject, when Hillers is saying he probably doesn’t pay any federal tax because the only time he’s ever produced any tax returns was when he had to to get a casino license & they showed he didn’t pay any tax, with “that makes me smart”. While that might be true, it’s probably not very wise to say that to voters who have to pay tax.

            He made a number of other not particularly wise smart alec interjections too. I could picture his team looking through the fingers of their left hands & desperately making throat cutting guestures at him with their right hands.

            Reply
            • Conspiratoor

               /  28th September 2016

              His instinct has got him this far G but it looks to me like he will need to adapt to Hiller’s ability to look downh her proboscis at him as if he was a naughty schoolboy. She’s also got a wicked eye roll thing going. Cheers,c

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  28th September 2016

              The Italy communism thing seems to me more like ignorance than a lie-ten seconds on Google could have cleared this up.

              Trump seemed as if he wasn’t with it some of the time-answering a question by saying that his son was good with computers. All that sniffing was very odd, and very childish.

              Hillary Clinton came across as much more credible and dignified. She also had the sense to let him drop himself in it and show himself up as the boor that he is when he became overbearing and interrupted. Waiting patiently for someone to stop babbling is far more effective than trying to talk them down. The body language was interesting, his bullying and hers restrained.

              Was he drunk ? He seemed as if he was on something, and I’d guess that that is the most likely thing to be on. He rambled and didn’t seem with it on the (small) part that I saw.

              How any women can vote for such a sexist ‘man’ is hard to understand when one hears the language that he uses of women. Any NZ man standing for office who said any of the really crude things that he has said in public would be assumed to be saying that his formal resignation was on the way. It’s impossible to imagine any of our male politicians talking like that, still less talking like that and not being booed off the stage or having every woman (and a lot of the men) walking out.

              He was a reasonably attractive man years ago, but he now proves the saying that people get the face they deserve !

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  28th September 2016

              He said that climate change was WHAT, Gezza ? Oh,surely not. He CAN’T think THAT. The man sounds like a nutcase. That’s not even ‘a lie’, that’s lunacy from someone who is really losing it and doesn’t know what’s real and what isn’t.

              In the photo of him and Barron (what was he thinking to land the poor child with that name ?), young Trump looks very uneasy as Dad croons and swoons over him. This may be just his age, or may be because this doesn’t happen off-camera. The poor child has a whole floor of Trump Towers to himself-why ? Is anyone there with him ? Do they leave him there alone ? How dreary if this is so, and I see little point in his having the whole floor if he ISN’T the sole occupant.

              We don’t seem to be seeing much of the current Mrs T lately. I wonder if there’ll be a Situation Vacant there.

              He seems to have-or someone has-realised that the Gennifer Flowers thing would make him look like a fool, putting an elderly woman in the front row and rehashing such an old non-story. Apart from anything else, it’s all but impossible to see anything from the stage when the lights are on.

              His advisors must have not only been doing the throat-cutting gesture, they must have been saying ‘Shut up, shut up, shut UP !’ through clenched teeth…

  5. Zedd

     /  28th September 2016

    It sounds like an increasing number are looking at a ‘third party’ option: Greens or Libertarians ?

    btw; Democracy Now (USA Indep. news) included Jill Stein in the debate (added to the recording), see the website: DemocracyNow.org

    “GO Jill !!” 🙂

    Reply
    • Zedd

       /  28th September 2016

      btw; Democracy Now also invited Gary Johnson (Libertarians) to do likewise, but he rejected their offer :/

      Reply
  6. Zedd

     /  28th September 2016

    Al Jazeera journo pointed out that, Drumpf’s main chance is not his ‘brilliant rhetorical style’ BUT the whole ‘change’ thing, that seems to be usual in USA politics; Republicans, then Democrats then back to Republicans ?

    *BUT Drumpf ain’t no ‘usual/normal Republican’ SO.. only time will tell ??? :/

    Reply
  7. Zedd

     /  28th September 2016

    now Drumpf is blaming the Mediator & the microphone.. BUT methinks he was just ‘having a REALLY bad HAIR day !!’ 😀

    Reply
  8. Klik Bate

     /  28th September 2016

    Hannity maintaining they have evidence ‘Hillary was wearing a wire and answers were being fed to her during the debate’

    Must say it does look a little bit suspect ??

    Reply
    • Conspiratoor

       /  28th September 2016

      I raised this yesterday kB. Makes the yank blood in me boil. Trump needs to put this on the smart bitch in the next round. No more Mr nice guy Donald

      Reply
      • Corky

         /  28th September 2016

        It could be worse than a wire….it may be a back brace… like Kennedy’s. Unfit for office. Trump for Prez.

        Reply
    • Nick Ellis

       /  28th September 2016

      Trump was wearing a wire too, … until he inhaled it up his nose.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  28th September 2016

        Of course she’s wearing a wire. It’s a microphone cord; look at the little clip on her lapel to which it is attached.Anyone can see that the box (bumpy bit) is attached by a wire to the little black mike. I wore one on Mastermind. Everyone wears one on television, and they stick out at the back just as Hillary Clinton’s one does in the picture. They are not very comfortable to wear, but better than holding a mike the whole time.

        If she was being fed answers through this, the answers would be squeaking out through the little clip and being picked up by the lectern mike. Hannify is either stirring it or doesn’t know much about broadcasting-nobody would wear something so obvious if they were doing something surreptitious. Hasn’t Hannify ever heard of earpieces ?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  28th September 2016

          Did you have a microphone on a stand right in front of you as well on Mastermind Kitty?

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  28th September 2016

            But you’re right – I just looked at a clip of the highlights & they’ve both got lapel mics. 👍

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  28th September 2016

              I can’t remember.

              I do remember how odd the lapel one felt at first-and can’t see how anything could be coming back the other way without it being unbelievably confusing and noisily obvious. It would be worse than having a phone call that echoes.

              ‘Do you believe in climate change ?’

              (pause)

              (squeaky voice echoes around auditorium) ‘It’s a very compex issue and hard to answer in a few words.’

              HC ‘It’s a very complex issue and hard to answer in a few words.’

              (squeaky voice) Hell, turn the volume down.

              (different squeaky voice) I can’t, it wouldn’t go through.

              (first squeaky voice) Oh shit.

              (second squeaky voice)Shut up, the whole auditorium can hear you.

              The lapel ones are such standard items that it’s impossible that any experienced commentator could make such a mistake-it has to be stirring it, and it makes the person look like a fool. But no doubt there will those who believe it.

            • Gezza

               /  28th September 2016

              Very good Kitty. 😃

              And I think calling him Hannify is an excellent punishment for his perfidy. 😜

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