Maori crime statistics

Maori crime and imprisonment statistics are horrendous.

‘One law for all’ sounds impressive in theory but in reality some laws are unequally applied.

If Maori crime was successfully addressed to a significant extent then crime and prison statistics could improve markedly.

Tony Wright at Newshub: History’s role in understanding Māori prison rates

Last weekend I published an article entitled ‘Why are so many Māori in prison?’

The article took an historical view of Māori poverty using the expertise and knowledge of historian Vincent O’Malley and Maori Party co-leader Marama Fox.

Although we don’t allow comments on the Newshub website – particularly for such an emotive and divisive article – I forgot to take into account the flurry of comments that would come through later on the Newshub Facebook page.

It was obvious some posters had simply read the headline and hadn’t bothered to read the article, but many had, and some of the comments were very interesting.

One main theme that came through was one of historical ignorance:

“Why blame century old injustices to Māori for their plight today?” was a common post.

Why indeed?

Intergenerational poverty and welfare dependence has had a direct effect on Māori crime rates. This is fact. You cannot deny it.

And it has had a major negative effect.

In a perfect New Zealand, Māori wouldn’t be on the wrong end of crime, poverty, and poor health statistics. The sad fact is that they are, and shockingly so.

Remember that Māori make up 14.6 percent of New Zealand’s population, but over 50 percent of the prison population.

All Kiwis need to be concerned about that statistic; it’s blight on our country and the end product of a social situation that simply isn’t working for Māori.

Not all Maori, but too many Maori, and this impacts on all of us through crime and costs through things like prisons.

Should New Zealand have a separate justice system for Māori?

A common theme posted was this: “We’re all Kiwis and we should all be treated the same, regardless of race.”

If you look closely at the New Zealand justice system you’ll soon realise Māori aren’t treated the same as everyone else.

As Ms Fox told me: “Māori are three times as likely to be incarcerated for the same crime as non-Māori, and you’re three times as likely to be incarcerated for longer periods for the same crime as non-Māori.”

Does this read as being treated the ‘same’ to you?

Newshub will be looking further into the high incarceration rates of Māori because it’s a major issue and one that’s often misunderstood within New Zealand society.

I believe we first have to first address it, and then seriously look at ways of improving it.

If we can’t at least do that, then what kind of society are we?

If Maori social problems, Maori education problems, Maori family problems, Maori crime and Maori imprisonment rates are successfully addressed then we will all benefit, and we will have a better country.

A different approach is needed, because what is happening now is a disgraceful failure.

Leave a comment

117 Comments

  1. Alan Wilkinson

     /  26th October 2016

    Lefty journalists have no clue and never will. If you want to fix Maori crime and failure you have to fix the stupid ideas that cause them. Simply put: disrespect for education, hard work, honesty and property; reverence for physical power and violence.

    Reply
    • Joe Bloggs

       /  26th October 2016

      Not forgetting the institutional racism either

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  26th October 2016

        You mean special electorates, committees on councils, rights to resources, their own Land Court and category of land tenure, ability to not pay rates …?

        Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  26th October 2016

      Intergenerational poverty and welfare dependence has had a direct effect on Māori crime rates.

      This cretinous piece of logic is typical of the Left. In fact Maori crime rates are caused by the stupid beliefs I listed and they also cause and sustain intergenerational poverty and welfare dependence.

      Reply
  2. Corky

     /  26th October 2016

    This crap is regurgitated when things are slow. When Maori address their issues collectively ( we are constantly told Maori are whanau oriented) things will change. That’s where it has to start. That’s where it isn’t starting. Once addressing these issues by Maori is under way, they won’t be in a position to have the law applied unevenly.

    When I have some broken-arse Maori or relly tell me I’m talking shit, I ask them how come all these Chinese and Indians immigrant come here and become gainfully employed? Many starting from nothing. The ignorant, on many levels response is: ‘they haven’t suffered from colonialism under the baldheads ( pakeha) rule.

    Reply
  3. It begins with a new written Constitution founded upon biculturalism and Te Tiriti o Waitangi, plus the very best of our proud European traditions, with tikanga and tino rangatiratanga given genuinely equal status to “rule of law” and Westminster. It grows and flourishes and nurtures us through the new model of Marae Ture/Legislative Assembly this Constitution begets …

    The process of creating our Constitution, difficult and challenging though it may be, will involve a re-evaluation of Aotearoa New Zealand’s HIStory, a degree of ‘truth and reconciliation’, and a truer understanding of equalness with difference … A greater sense of belonging here in the South Pacific … where New Year is Matariki and Easter is Labour Weekend … living on Maori land, te whenua, by right of honourable Treaty …

    Hence, in much the same way as this can only result in the best possible Republic formation and best possible flag, it will engender an extraordinary re-envigoration of both Maori and Pakeha, and other ethnic, relational and chosen ‘cultures’ access to, energy for and involvement in our truly ‘equal but different’, bicultural, multicultural communities, constituting a single society and nation: Aotearoa New Zealand.

    Why? How will that work …?

    Well, bluntly, because today we are ill and dis-eased, and tomorrow we’ll be healed, or at least we’ll be healing …

    Te hei mauri ora …

    Reply
    • Joe Bloggs

       /  26th October 2016

      Ui mai koe ki ahau he aha te mea nui o te ao;
      Māku e kī atu he tangata, he tangata, he tangata!
      Tehei mauri ora!

      Reply
      • Ae Joe, ae …

        “Kua tawhiti kē to haerenga mai, kia kore e haere tonu. He nui rawa o mahi, kia kore e mahi tonu : You have come too far not to go further, you have done too much not to do more.”

        – Ta Himi Henare : Sir James Henare

        Hei huarahi ma tatou i te rangi nei : A pathway for us all this day

        Reply
    • One simple, relatively superficial example: Gone will be laws which are in themselves ‘criminal’, such as our cannabis laws, removing from our communities an undercurrent of paranoia, threat, secrecy and ‘villainy’ which permeates our society’s wairua … This is dis-ease …

      It shall be gone and eventually forgotten; not to be suffered by our children and grandchildren … Imagine …

      Imagine for a moment, if you are capable, that you are a Maori person who has felt ‘subject’ to a raft of such laws all your life, and because you know your whakapapa, your tipuna have felt the same for six or ten generations, ever since the ‘strangers’ white sails appeared on your horizon, the longboat hauled-up upon your beach, and a musket cracked, spitting death upon your teina e tuahine …

      Kia hora te marino … May peace be widespread …

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  26th October 2016

        From what I gather, the police don’t go out of their way to look for those who smoke dope-if people do this discreetly, and don’t attract attention to it, they should be all right. I know someone who does, and he has never been arrested.

        I don’t think that the original white settlers opened fire with muskets as soon as they landed, in fact some of them were set upon and killed, which they wouldn’t have been had they had guns on them. The Maori inhabitants were very keen to acquire these handy weapons, if I remember right.

        Reply
  4. Alan Wilkinson

     /  26th October 2016

    God, you spiel crap, PZ.

    Reply
    • That’s your comeback Alan? “God, you spiel crap, PZ” … Really … !?

      No thoughts on the subject itself … ?

      I did say “if you are capable” …

      Aroha atu, aroha ata Alan

      Reply
      • Just because its not dollars and numbers and ‘data’ Alan, doesn’t mean its crap.

        Healthy life isn’t just about “the minimum spend” …

        Tatau i a tatou katoa : Let us show respect for each other

        Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  26th October 2016

        I addressed the subject in the first comment. As for your nonsense, I know heaps of Maori who function perfectly well despite their colonial heritage. Strangely enough they avoid all the stupid ideas that I listed and behave like normal, successful human beings instead of gutter rats. Amazing, isn’t it?

        Reply
        • @ Alan – “I know heaps of Maori who function perfectly well despite their colonial heritage.”

          Hmmm …. “despite” … Do you mean “in spite of the factual existence of”?

          Fine, okay, we’ll have a country designed exclusively and only for them and all the pakeha like them then …

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  26th October 2016

            … and all the Asians, Pacific Islanders, Europeans and Africans who join with New Zealanders to make up a democracy called New Zealand and who share common decency, respect for others and their property, abhor violence and intimidation and seek to live in harmony, look after their families, progress intellectually and improve everyone’s life.

            Strange how their myriad of backgrounds make this possible, isn’t it?

            Reply
            • Te Tiriti o Waitangi made it possible to begin with Alan …

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              No it didn’t. It was just one step in the many paths of history that led people here. If it hadn’t happened the French or even the Americans may well have annexed the country. Good luck with that.

            • Gezza

               /  26th October 2016

              They may have. They may not. The Treaty meant they didn’t.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              Pretty clear that the Brits rushed to head off the French:
              http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/french/page-2

              Colonisation was happening by force and by the inevitability of the technology and knowledge advantages of the colonists. The Treaty was merely an acknowledgement of it.

            • Gezza

               /  26th October 2016

              It was more than just an acknowledgement it was an agreement between the British Sovereign & Maori Rangatira and while the protection of the British Crown and the rights of British subjects for all was extended, exactly what was agreed in terms of governance for Maori tribes in their own individual rohe is still debatable because of the translation differences over chieftanship and sovereignty.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              It was an acknowledgement by Maori that they needed the protection of the British crown because they were both divided and at a technological and knowledge disadvantage to the colonists. It was also an attempt by the British Government to treat them humanely and to protect their interests. It was drafted entirely by the British and signed without input or modification by the Maori. No question who was in the driving seat and what was happening and why.

            • Here’s Prof. Sir Hugh Kawharu’s translation of Te Tiriti o Waitangi with annotations …

              http://www.postcolonialweb.org/nz/dewes3.html#translation

              … I believe this was a factor in the Waitangi Tribunal’s 2014 decision that Maori did not cede ‘sovereignty’ …

              http://maorilawreview.co.nz/2014/11/waitangi-tribunal-finds-treaty-of-waitangi-signatories-did-not-cede-sovereignty-in-february-1840/

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              Calling Hobson an administrator rather than a Chief is rather cute, PZ. However, the Tribunal’s silly nonsense about sovereignty doesn’t survive even cursory inspection. They conceded governance and became ordinary citizens of the British Crown.

            • Gezza

               /  26th October 2016

              This seems a reasonable though brief summary of the situation re the Treaty in 1840 & now.

              From my reading of at least one auhoritative translation of the Maori version that chiefs signed, the real quid pro quo was agreeing to sell their lands exclusively to the British Crown or its agents, in return for the overall rights & duties of British subjects and protection by the Crown of both themselves – against the otherwise lawless settlers, and possibly even other tribes – but also protection of their tribal authority exercised by their Chiefs over their own tribal lands i.e. those which had not been gifted or sold to the Crown. It was always going to be problematic.

              http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/read-the-Treaty/differences-between-the-texts

              Are you saying you think the Treaty was simply forced on Maori, or that they were simply tricked into signing away their individual autonomy in their own areas by the Treaty drafters?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              No, I’m saying the attempt to revise what the Treaty clearly states is pathetic rubbish. Hobson was proclaiming NZ to be part of the British Empire governed by the Queen who would enforce law and protect Maori from exploitation under that law. That was a large part of the Maori motivation to sign. In return she would not interfere with the Chiefs’ authority over their own land and tribes. That is clearly a subservient position and was implemented as such.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              I would just add the context of the times:

              Bishop Pompallier representing the French and based in Russell with his mission was actively opposing the Treaty. So were some of the British and American settlers. He left the chiefs he talked to in no doubt about what subservience to the British Crown meant and would entail. Subsequently those chiefs reinforced those views at the ToW gathering and opposed it vigorously. Others like Patuone and Nene supported it and downplayed the subservient aspect. Even as that became abundantly clear during implementation they opposed Hone Heke’s rebellion recognising that colonisation was inevitable and irreversible and that the colonists brought huge benefits with them.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              You only get two logical options with the ToW. Either it means what it says in English by those who drafted it or the Maori were misled and it is a nullity. All the rest is rort and ideology.

  5. Zedd

     /  26th October 2016

    15% of the ‘general population’ BUT 50% of the prison muster.. definitely sounds like ‘targeting/profiling’ could be on the police/courts agenda ?? :/

    Reply
    • It’s a cancerous system Zedd …

      Reply
      • Zedd

         /  26th October 2016

        @PZ

        true.. unfortunately ‘Team Key’ have their ‘lock em all up, blinkers on !’
        …as their main option ?

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  26th October 2016

          Yep, and not a note of Kumbaya to be heard. Just the way New Zealand wants it,

          Reply
        • @ Zedd – “unfortunately ‘Team Key’ have their ‘lock em all up, blinkers on!’

          I don’t want to be sceptical on this beautiful day Zedd, but I disagree …

          Team Key (et al) have got their “Treat it with the most expensive, industrialized social-service pharmacology ‘money-go-round'” tinted spectacles on – the equivalent of corporate criminological ‘Round-Up’ or 1080 – which serves to maintain a myth of social cohesion at the same time …

          Seems it keeps the Corkys’ happy, despite it being an ever expanding ‘rort’, out-of-control pathological ‘growth’ … a bit like cancer …

          Aroha atu, aroha ata Zedd : Give love, receive love …

          Reply
    • Corky

       /  26th October 2016

      Nah, Zedd. Maori just commit more crime. And people like you make excuses. At least l’m covered should I become a crook…what about you, Zedd ? What’s your excuse- Anorexia made you do it?

      Reply
  6. John Schmidt

     /  26th October 2016

    My childhood was not exactly stellar in terms of wealth and poverty. I grew up in the 1950’s lived in a house with a wood stove for cooking, large coppers for hot water, wall paper falling off the walls, outside toilet. Because we (Pakeha) lived in amoungst Maori I began school speaking half Maori half English which caused much concern amoungst my teachers at that time. Social welfare visited our home many times because of complaints from Pakeha neighbours about our well being. Family could not afford a car until I was a teen and it was years before my family could afford a 2nd hand bike for me or my brothers. Both parents worked at a time when working mothers were frowned upon. We lived on the bones of our arse. Our life was no different at that time than our Maori friends and neighbours. Yet it never occurred to my family or I that crime was the answer or that we should fail at school.
    Through a series of good life choices my brothers and I now live comfortable lives, our children have acquired university degrees in Medicine, Architecture, Engineering and IT. Our Maori and Pakeha friends and neighbours from the 1950’s choose different life pathways which resulted in very medicore outcomes for their grand children in comparison.
    Blaming others for poor life choices is a total cop out.

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  26th October 2016

      I remember seeing a young black man on Oprah, one of ten children whose mother had been widowed young. All ten had professions. His mother had a saying about how having a low income didn’t mean that you had to have a low outcome (I forget the exact words, she put it better than that)

      Reply
      • So perhaps exceptions do prove to be the rule Miss Kitty?

        Well, except statistically …

        Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  26th October 2016

          The saying is that the exception proves the rule, and proves in this context means test, not verify. The saying is meaningless otherwise.

          There is a very large black middle class in the US, something that tends to be overlooked, just as there are many middle-class Maori people in NZ. It suits the PC to ignore this, of course.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  26th October 2016

            The exception [that] proves the rule” is a saying whose meaning has been interpreted or misinterpreted in various ways. Its true, or at least original, meaning is that the presence of an exception applying to a specific case establishes (“proves”) that a general rule exists. For example, a sign that says “parking prohibited on Sundays” (the exception) “proves” that parking is allowed on the other six days of the week (the rule). A more explicit phrasing might be “the exception that proves the existence of the rule.”

            An alternative explanation often encountered is that the word “prove” is used in the archaic sense of “test”. Thus, the saying does not mean that an exception demonstrates a rule to be true or to exist, but that it tests the rule. In this sense it is usually used when an exception to a rule has been identified: for example, Mutillidae are wasps without wings which cannot fly, and therefore are an exception that proves (tests) the rule that wasps fly. The explanation that “proves” really means “tests” is, however, considered false by some sources.

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule

            Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  26th October 2016

      Exactly, John. You can spend your youth partying and fighting and continue it into adulthood or not. You can invest in your future or abandon it. You can teach your children wisdom or stupidity. It doesn’t matter where you come from if you know where you are going.

      The Lefty apologists for stupidity condemn their supposed victims of colonialism to more self-perpetuating misery and depravity.

      Reply
    • Do you mean “life choices” like being born Maori?
      So if you were a Black South African you wouldn’t blame Aparthied at all?

      Its great you’ve got a positive personal story John and thanks for sharing it.

      I for one am talking about Maori crime statistics here. Statistics derived from attempting to look at the system as a whole. Hence ‘systemic’ issues …

      “Blaming others” may be a systemic issue to some degree? However I believe systemic racism is much more pervasive and destructive …

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  26th October 2016

        Been born Maori is not a life choice. Neither is being born to stupid or even evil parents. What you do after that is. 0.6% of Maori are in prison. 99.4% are not.

        Systemic issues are to blame for that 0.6%? Give us a break and a teaspoon of common sense, PZ.

        Reply
        • Common sense says a) try to reduce that 0.6% and b) try not to create more prisons.

          If a 15% population group are 50% represented in prison in a system, common sense says there might be something wrong with that system, AS WELL AS those people …

          Common sense says at least SOME of those peoples problems or inability to abide by the law might be the result of something wrong with the system … as in laws which are in themselves criminal like our cannabis laws …

          And common sense says we’re all born into situations we (apparently) didn’t choose but, having been born into a stupid or evil situation it takes considerable time, against these odds, to develop the ability to make positive life choices …

          Common sense involves a goodly measure of hope …

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  26th October 2016

            Of course aim to reduce it and reduce the prison population. You’ll never do that if you think systemic issues are the cause when plainly most Maori are immune to them which is where I came in and depart from the Lefty hymn book.

            Yes, cannabis laws are horrifically counter-productive and destructive. I see California is about to vote to decriminalise and this is likely to spread across the US. Getting rid of them would be good. But I don’t believe it will destroy the causes of life destruction that are producing the high Maori imprisonment imbalance. Instead we must help individuals to break from their destructive beliefs and stop the subcultures that produce them producing more.

            Reply
        • I’ve just now spotted your cunning NZ Initiative-style use of ‘statistics’ here Alan [or numbers actually, life’s a numbers game for you really, isn’t it?] . Very sly of you indeed …

          It’s not strictly ‘true’ and certainly not significantly relevant or conclusively meaningful that only 0.6% of all Maori are in prison, is it? It’s actually a ruse … Its still 6 in every 1000 Maori men, women and children … [by comparison, 0.12% or 1.2 in 1,000 of the total New Zealand population died at Passchendaele, the nation’s greatest [pakeha] ‘catastrophe’]

          With a total Maori population of 700,000 in 2013 and a total Maori prison population of 5000 [both rounded up] the total percentage of Maori in prison is 0.71 – not far off your 0.6% – but of course people can’t go to prison until they are 17 or 18 and in 2013 233,000 Maori were aged 0 – 14 years. Let’s remove them from the equation, shall we?

          We could almost certainly remove more, the 14 – 17 year olds and a significant number of the 36,460 elderly? I propose a very, very conservative ‘ineligible for prison’ and highly unlikely to be in prison figure of 250,000?

          The total percentage of Maori who realistically can be in prison and who are in prison now becomes 1.1% or 11 in every 1000 ‘adult’ Maori people …

          This is a relatively and concerningly high percentage of the adult Maori population, considering many statistics like mortality, disease and homocide are measured per 100,000 of population, so I certainly can’t agree that most Maori are “plainly immune” to systemic issues …

          I was only using cannabis law as an example of unjust laws – of which Maori are very familiar – not as the root cause of all this …

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  26th October 2016

            I really wanted to find the proportion of Maori who spend any time in prison in their lifetime but couldn’t. The number I quoted came from here:
            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11629050

            Without knowing the recidivism rate and length of sentence you can’t get there from here. However, the difference between 0.6% and 1.1% is trivial in relation to the logical conclusion that the vast majority of Maori are not and never were criminals and therefore were strangely unaffected by colonisation seven generations and nearly two centuries ago.

            Reply
          • link http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/populations/maori-health/tatau-kahukura-maori-health-statistics/tatauranga-taupori-demographics/age-structure

            We’ve got slightly more than 1 adult in every 100 of our indigenous population incarcerated at any one time. Cause for deep concern IMHO.

            You call this logic!? Maori not being criminals and Maori being unaffected by colonisation are not conditional upon each other … Its not a mutually inclusive or exclusive relationship … I see it as more like a ‘soup’ of issues, some of them systemic issues dating back to Te Tiriti and European contact before then … some of cultural … some communal … some personal …

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              Of course it is a cause for concern. It just isn’t compatible with the cause being colonialism since most Maori are not criminals.

              The cause is the stupid beliefs I listed. Until they are fixed the individuals who possess them will continue to be criminals whether or not they are Maori.

  7. “Māori are three times as likely to be incarcerated for the same crime as non-Māori, and you’re three times as likely to be incarcerated for longer periods for the same crime as non-Māori.”

    Can someone direct me to these statistics please?

    Reply
    • This could ostensibly be related to such a thing as recidivist sentencing, as opposed to say a first offence. If not, it’s a serious indictment. What I do know is having been on the victim end of four large property (one a business crime), is that the lack of impetus to charge the blighters prevailed in all my situations.

      Reply
    • PDB

       /  26th October 2016

      Far easier to give you a downtick then find out if a statement is true or not……

      Reply
      • Yes, of course it is. I’d prefer that an individual sentencing depended on the history, nature, guilt admission, remorse etcetera, of a individual, rather than the implication ( where’s the proof?)that a “mean, colonial, whitey justice system” hands Māori longer sentences as a matter of course.

        Reply
  8. We hear so many times that we should leave it to Maori to provide answers for Maori problems. And when we do, what result to we get? Failure. Why? Maori will say because we were underfunded, so you guys are to blame. I then ask, how is it that when the same stock enter the Armed Forces and submit themselves to disciplined training, they succeed in a most admirable way. I could name the successes, but the list id too long to be repeated here.
    So why the difference? Self discipline and rules of conduct are established and personal hygiene, rules for social behaviour are inculcated and the individual Maori recruit can stand tall. In other words, the Army takes the role of the parent, and rehabilitates the recruit into a mature thinking being who looks to do his or her bit for the team. That is where we have a problem with the Maori Community, because their traditional community disciplines and individual discipline have broken down, the women have taken over and the males feel worthless. And then the drugs and alcohol take their place. Take an unloved young man who is ill educated and has no hope then give him a chip on his shoulder about how his granddad and great-granddad were treated 150 years ago, and without personal feelings of worth, then you have an explosive mixture and then jail. Yes gangs do not provide a substitute, because their disciplines and leadership is not for the community good. The proof is in their behaviour and the crime statistics. What do we do? Bring back CMT, and form local community militias that form part of the welfare/civil defence corps for the home town/village/city. It will cost a bit, yes, but think of the savings. Will it work? Ask the Norwegians, Swiss, and the British just how well the regimental system worked.
    When all the left-wing liberal wankers start raving about their human rights etc etc just tell them to depart usng Hilary Clinton’s words to her close protection staff.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  26th October 2016

      Will they get their own muskets? That causes a lot of trouble sometimes.

      Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  26th October 2016

      So very true, BJ. And so sad.

      Reply
    • patupaiarehe

       /  26th October 2016

      I can’t argue with a word of that BJ. FWIW, I think $1 billion would be far better spent on Defense, than building more prisons.

      Reply
    • @ bjmarsh1 – ” …because their traditional community disciplines and individual discipline have broken down …”

      Why? Systemic issues perhaps?

      “drugs and alcohol take their place”

      No, drugs and alcohol pre-empt and cause the above ‘breakdown’. Drugs and alcohol ARE major systemic issues.

      ” the women have taken over and the males feel worthless”

      Or, the males feel worthless, at least in part due to systemic issues, and the women take over …?

      ” … the Army takes the role of the parent, and rehabilitates the recruit into a mature thinking being who looks to do his or her bit for the team.”

      This is only half of the story of military discipline though isn’t it Beejay? What an army also requires is blind obedience in the face of possible, likely or even certain death. There are countless examples of the insanity, barbarity and tragedy of this, I cited New Zealand’s Passchendaele experience earlier, our greatest catastrophic loss of life, and it is just one example of myriad. The “mature thinking being” only operates up to a point and may require military-style leadership in order to function, even in order to “think”? This may not be entirely suitable for civilian life.

      “form local community militias that form part of the welfare/civil defence corps for the home town/village/city.”

      Great idea. We could call this “community wage” or ‘Work for the Dole’ and provide people who are currently being punished as beneficiaries with useful, meaningful work and earnings approaching a liveable amount? Plus a leg-up to future career development? This can be done without the ‘military’ component and still require discipline. It can be learned as opposed to taught, compelled or forced …?

      Yep, its gonna cost, as will dealing with the systemic issues … but think of the savings!?

      Reply
      • We spend a huge part of our tax dollars on welfare and a goodly proportion of it goes to Māori empowering imperatives. As far as bringing up the tail, I’d go as far as saying it’s doing 5/8ths of the proverbial. One area I’ve been personally involved in education. I was involved in Kohanga Reo at it’s inception, as a participating parent. It irks me that after 35 years there has been ZERO improvement in the abysmal stats for Māori achievement – as far as the trickle-down, boat-floating kind. Sure, the language has been fostered and opportunities for middle class Māori, many of whom are directly employed in all Govt funded initiatives, are plentiful, but there’s nothing happened down the bottom. Māori school leavers as a whole have shown no improvement. It all looks very nice in the various full immersion units. You’re looking at nice, middle class, aspirational Māori with caring parents, but the reality for the bottom is the same and these kids are mostly in state schools anyway. Sadly, they make up the larger part of the 20% of functionally illiterate. With the greatest will in the world, there’s precious little coming back from that without a revolution.

        The insidious, soul-destroying nature of dependence is the root of this. To me, fostering state dependency is slavery by stealth, something terribly Huxley’s lower caste Bokanovsky Groups about it. Most initiatives gratify the bestower, satisfy the proletariat, but seem to simply dress the open wound – which festers on. The powers that be have neither the vision nor political will to deal to the failing Māori demographic. This situtation is similar throughout the West. Governments are paralysed by virtue of the myopic, democracies we hold so dear. The electoral cycle dominates all. If anyone steps outside of the box, they’re relentlessly judged by bleeding heart liberals, lead by a knee-jerk press.

        The easiest line is inflation adjusted subsistence welfare and mouthing off culturally aware platitudes.

        Reply
      • The “blind obedience” spoken about by Partizan Z is a relic if European wars and South Africa Zulu Wars. It certainly has no place in our Military training system unless there have been radical changes in recent years. Rather each and every soldier is taught and encouraged to think for themselves as part of a team and play their part in the organisation. Drill and marching are a device to inculcate habits of working together to create an overall pride in self and Unit, but is only a feature of basic raining or special occasions. The real thing that works is that each person earns respect of others by what he or she adds to the team and unit and each person is valued for that not ethnicity, gender or any other crap because we all belong to the same supra-culture that identifies us as members of a Defence Force for New Zealand, not Maori (an English noun) or Pakeha (a misunderstood description recorded by English missionaries as part of the original reduction of the language to writing in the first place. I acknowledge Prof. Sir Hugh Kawharu as a Maori Scholar, but he can not be excused from a natural bias towards modern Maori interpretation of history, because he is Maori. Nether he nor anyone else has yet explained why Hobson’s recorded comment immediately after the signing was “Now we are one people”, and not “well now we can get on with taking up all that unused land for our settlers.” Its time people to think of now and the future. By all means treasure the past, but remember that it is after all just the past and fix our eyes on a future better for all, not just one privileged group of “haves”.

        Reply
        • patupaiarehe

           /  27th October 2016

          What people need to realise, is that the military don’t just train people to shoot at things & blindly follow orders. They also train people to maintain machinery & electronics, and to develop even better versions of both. Two of the best tradesmen I worked under as an apprentice, both ‘did their time’ in the Army, and they got a lot of respect in the shop, as they could turn their hand to anything. Fitter/welder/mechanic/sparky/plumber would be a very understated description of them both. One of my many brothers in law was a ‘grunt’ for a couple of years, and he says the same about the Army as you BJ. Reckons it made him a better man.
          Don’t believe everything you see on TV…

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  27th October 2016

            That made my day… so funny. Lee Ermey was made for the role. The only cliché missing was” don’t call me sir, I work for a living.” Sergeants are non-commissioned officers.

            Reply
        • @ BJ – Let me get this straight … So Prof Sir Hugh Kawharu has a bias because he’s Maori, but Hobson didn’t have a bias, presumably because he was English and the Queen’s appointed representative? There’s what’s commonly called “institutional racism” right there.

          And there’s your explanation for Hobson’s recorded comment; pakeha bias and greed based upon an assumption of White Supremacy, usually expressed as expediency … He was acting for the Crown.

          “Normanby gave Hobson three instructions – to seek a cession of sovereignty, to assume complete control over land matters, and to establish a form of civil government …” – Wikipedia

          Hobson indulged in “a bit of spin”? … Hobson “suggested”? … Hobson cajoled in a foreign language? Perhaps Hobson outright lied?

          If we took all politicians’ word at face value we’d be deeply in the shite, wouldn’t we?

          Reply
          • patupaiarehe

             /  27th October 2016

            If we could find a middle ground between PZ’s & Alan’s opinions, that would be great 😉

            Reply
  9. PDB

     /  26th October 2016

    Nothing a good hui or two wouldn’t fix……..

    Reply
  10. PDB

     /  26th October 2016

    http://www.nzcpr.com/education-only-way-out-for-maori/

    Alan Duff: “The alleged teenage killer of a North Shore woman pensioner who has relatives call out in court, “Kia kaha, bro. Be strong” says as much about the family as the alleged killer. Why on earth would they be wanting him to be strong when it is a fundamental character flaw that has him commit, the police claim, murder? How about telling him, “Say sorry. And be sorry.”?

    “Until Maori society right across the board condemns crime and criminals like this, we’ll keep our complete domination of the murder and violence statistics. His family should have been in court letting the boy know he can hang his head in shame and he’ll never be forgiven, not until he’s served years and years inside, and can demonstrate he’s redeemed himself and is no longer a danger to society”.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  26th October 2016

      Until he changes what he values he will be a danger to himself and to society.

      Reply
    • Pakeha education is the only way out for Maori …. Yeah, Right!

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  26th October 2016

        Probably do you good too, PZ.

        Reply
        • Had me plenty of pakeha education Alan … It gave me the critical thinking skills to see through its doctrinaire, astigmatic, Euro-centric, brainwashing tendencies and perceive the value in other cultural traditions AS WELL … in addition to …

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  26th October 2016

            There you go, PZ, you recognise its value after all.

            Reply
            • Jeeez Alan … I try to use BIG CAPITALS like “AS WELL” and also translate, like “in addition to”, so you’ll understand what I mean … and does it work?

              NOOOO …. EVIDENTLY IT DOESN’T …

              Kiwi Front Line is crying out for a Cyclopian Mind like yours Alan … Its a perfect match. I mean, you share their views already – i.e., The Treaty is meaningless, Maori aren’t tangata whenua et al – They need your voice …. The voice of senseless quasi-scientific belief, doctrine, ideology and prejudice justification …

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              Actually, apart from the pleasure in winding you up I don’t care what colour education they get so long as they value it and it is high quality.

              The enemy is the culture that doesn’t value education, doesn’t talk with their children, believes in belligerent brute force rather than reason, open-mindedness and kindness, prefers to steal rather than work, booze rather than think and indulges in sex rather than love.

  11. PDB, while I acknowledge the truth of your last paragraph, I do believe that the use of “Kia Kaha” to the convicted defendant was an assurance of support from the family not a lack of acceptance of the guilty verdict.

    Reply
    • PDB

       /  26th October 2016

      Context & timing here is the key. I’d agree with you if the family said that to him in private but yelling it out in public/and worse in a courtroom where his victims family etc were present to make a statement of what?

      A time and place for everything, this wasn’t it.

      Reply
  12. PDB

     /  26th October 2016

    Based on the arguments above from the left-leaning brigade New Zealand has a far bigger problem with its prison population in that there is blatant sexism being shown as ‘men’ are far more likely to be imprisoned than ‘women’. In fact based on 2012 figures males are around 15x more likely to be imprisoned than women in this country.

    Of course it has nothing what-so-ever to do with the fact that the majority of people committing a crime in this country happen to be male.

    Where’s the outrage?

    Reply
    • There should be more outrage about levels of violence amongst the male population and inflicted by males against females (and females against males).

      Reply
      • PDB

         /  26th October 2016

        The point I make is maybe, just maybe, Maori (and remember this is measured by those that ‘identify’ as Maori, of which many could technically be more European DNA-wise) are over-represented in prison because they simply commit more serious crimes.

        Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  26th October 2016

        Only the male on female gets prosecuted although statistically more females assault males but far less physical damage ensues.

        Reply
  13. PDB

     /  26th October 2016

    Maori and Pacific Islanders are also well over-represented in the Australian prison population………bit of bad luck, victimisation & unfortunate circumstance there too it seems.

    Obvious conclusion is John Key is to blame.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  26th October 2016

      Great Leftie thinking there, PDB. I look forward to Parti’s bs explaining that away. My guess, something along the lines of residual colonial influences still prevalent in all Australian social strata, magnified to a more virulent degree by partnelistic ( at best) attitudes towards the Dream People who where the original inhabitants of Australia. By social osmosis these attitudes are promulgated against new arrivals who are considered non-Aussie centric. Therefore a continued cycle of discrimination and colonisation is maintained and encouraged that is very similar to New Zeland.

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  26th October 2016

        the ‘American Dream’ is not for everyman Corky…’our way of life’ is dependent on unsophisticated ‘losers’ being exploited by capital…thats the reality.

        Reply
      • Very eloquently explained Corky – you’re a closet socialogist – but no, its much, much simpler than that. Its about ‘sense of belonging’ …

        Like, who the fu#k could possibly have a sense of belonging in Australia man!?

        Reply
    • @ PDB – “Obvious conclusion is John Key is to blame.”

      John Key, Governor Hobson, John Bryce, Roger Douglas, Ruth Richardson, Don Brash … et al …. take your pick?

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  26th October 2016

        Anyone but the culprits themselves then, PZ?

        Reply
        • Oh that’s right … We made a treaty … and then we dishonoured it … we’re absolved!

          The system we have now is set up to catch, prosecute and imprison “the culprits themselves” Alan and, in case you hadn’t noticed, it isn’t working …

          We could, conceivably, go on doing that while we investigate whether there are systemic issues, what they are and if they can be changed for the better …

          Oh God, I’ll have to translate … “better” means improved or higher quality … as in better “quality of life” …

          In social or ‘human’ terms this does not necessarily mean “cheaper” or more economic, more productive or efficient, it may not be quantifiable as ‘data’ …

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  26th October 2016

            “We”? Speak for yourself, White Man. You had nothing to do with it. Neither did I.

            I’ll tell you who I blame. The people who taught these people to be criminals.

            Reply
            • Touchy Alan … ? Perhaps to some considerable extent the people who taught these people to be criminals was us White folks …?

              “This takes us back to Bell’s point about the Päkehä desire to be cut off
              from their history as the descendants and inheritors of the privileges of
              the colonisers of Aotearoa.

              That many Päkehä would like such unpleasant matters to be forgotten or overlooked is undeniable. Brash, for example, complains:

              “None of us was around at the time of the New Zealand wars. None of us had anything to do with the confiscations. There is a limit to how much any generation can apologise for the sins of its great grandparents.”‘

              – Ani Mikaere ‘The Pakeha Search for Indigeneity’ …

              Good night Alan. Pleasant dreams. Po marie

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              No “perhaps” about it, PZ, simply false. As for Bell, as creepy a piece of smearing and sneering as anyone could dredge up. Revolting.

  14. Pickled Possum

     /  26th October 2016

    When slavery become ‘unpopular in America they brought in Racial Profiling and Jails. It become a major money maker for the ‘outraged’ in America.
    So much so it became a world role model on how to ‘subdue’ the 1st peoples or more commonly known as the Indigenous peoples.
    NZ is a good little student of the Great White Hope Lets Stay On Top By Any Means Tribe.

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  26th October 2016

      How come Asians are the least likely to be in jail then, Possum? Honorary whites or just not criminal enough?

      Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  26th October 2016

        Perhaps they are wealthy enough to afford good lawyers Alan, or even buy their way out of a deportation…

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  26th October 2016

          Maori rugby players seem to dodge jail for assaults more often than Asians, patu.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  26th October 2016

            how many asians play rugby…Alstein?

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              I said Asians not Asian, Blazer. Sharpen up your grammar.

          • patupaiarehe

             /  26th October 2016

            As do Pasifika players Alan. But to be fair, both ethnicities are over represented on rugby/league teams, compared to their presence in the general population. A bit like prison, & for similar reasons…

            Reply
      • Blazer

         /  26th October 2016

        you need to break down …’crime’ and what constitutes ‘criminality’…should Doug Graham still have a knighthood?

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  26th October 2016

          Since you ask, in my view yes. He was incompetent, not criminal. His conviction was an injustice.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  26th October 2016

            I find myself agreeing with you…a knighthood often confirms…incompetence.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  26th October 2016

              Since he was knighted principally for his work in advancing Treaty settlements I couldn’t possibly comment.

        • Gezza

           /  27th October 2016

          @ Blazer (paraphrasing) “What constitutes a ‘crime'”?

          That’s an interesting question. I was chatting to a retired policeman a few days ago & that very subject came up. 30 odd years ago I was driving the second car in a 7 car pile up on the downhill slope on the Nguaranga Gorge highway in heavy rain. The short version is that I hit the van with no back windows which had just barged in to the space I’d created in front of me (because of the heavy rain & the downhill slope) as we left the traffic lights that used to be at the top. The van driver suddenly just stopped completely because of a crash further down in the same lane that we couldn’t see. It took a second or so to realise he wasn’t just slowing down because he’d barged in at speed.

          Everyone except that asshole van driver was charged with an offence of failing to stop short of a vehicle in front. There were extenuating circumstances in my case. I’d aquaplaned in the wet, so had to brake-pump till I gently hit his bumper, but then got rear-ended back into the van. I told this retired cop that I explained the extenuating circumstances to the Court but got convicted of the crime I was charged with as it was inescapable as I’d foolishly & naively told the helpful young policewoman (who was ‘just trying to establish what happened’ with everybody & ‘make sure we were all right,’) that I had gently hit the van’s bumper before getting totalled from behind. $60 fine, but no demerit points because of the circumstances.

          Anyway, This ex-cop I was joking with said, ‘that’s not a crime, that’s only an offence’, and that a lot of people mistake offences for crimes – but he was hazy in his explanation for my ‘what is a crime then’?

          I thought maybe a crime in NZ is only an offence under The Crimes Act, & I googled yeterday to see if I could find out. I didn’t have much success finding anything definitive, & I gave up after reading this, which is still muddy, as it was taking too long:
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_Zealand#Legislation.2C_criminal_procedure_and_sentencing

          If anybody can find or give me a clear answer to what a crime is in NZ, I’d be interested to know.

          Reply
  15. Alan Wilkinson

     /  27th October 2016

    Exhibit A: The Maori criminal training ground – ripping off their own most vulnerable probably as teenagers:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11736291

    Reply
  16. Your rights with Police
    If you are questioned, detained or arrested by Police, your legal rights are:

    You have the right to consult and instruct a lawyer, in private and without delay
    You have the right to refrain from making a statement
    You have the right to ask why you are being questioned, detained, or arrested.
    Police have a list of the names and phone numbers of lawyers qualified to give advice and who have agreed to be contacted any time, day or night. Ask the Police for the list of Police Detention Legal Assistance Lawyers (link is external).

    Complaints against Police
    If you believe police have done something wrong, or that you were not treated fairly by police you can make a formal complaint, to any one of the following:

    Telephone or write to the Independent Police Complaints Authority (link is external) (IPCA); PO Box 5025, Wellington, Ph 0800 503 728 – toll free within New Zealand, or (04) 499 2050.
    Go to any Police station and tell them you want to make a complaint against police
    Write to the Commissioner of Police, PO Box 3017, Wellington
    Write to the Ombudsman (link is external)
    Talk or write to your Member of Parliament (link is external)
    Write to your local police District Commander: Northland Police District Private Bag 9016, Whangarei Waitematā Police District PO Box 331046, Takapuna Auckland City Police District Private Bag 92002, Auckland Counties Manukau Police District PO Box 76920, Counties Manukau Waikato Police District PO Box 3078, Hamilton Bay of Plenty Police District PO Box 741, Rotorua Eastern Police District PO Box 245, Napier Central Police District Private Bag 11040, Palmerston North Wellington Police District PO Box 693, Wellington Tasman Police District Private Bag 39, Nelson Canterbury Police District PO Box 2109, Christchurch Southern Police District Private Bag 1924, Dunedin.

    SOURCE:http://www.police.govt.nz/advice/personal-community/new-arrivals/english/rights

    Reply

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