Key invited back to Waitangi but…

John  Key will be invited back to Waitangi next year and will be allowed to speak, but there is already talk of protests.

Stuff seven hours ago: Unanimous decision for John Key to return to Waitangi with full speaking rights

At a meeting at Waitangi on Saturday, the organising committee and Ngapuhi elders voted unanimously to invite Key back to Te Tii Marae with no conditions on what he can and can’t speak about.

Chair of the organising committee and NZ First MP, Pita Paraone, said even he was “surprised by the ease in which it went through”.

It’s good to see Paraone in a constructive role.

Paraone said he “couldn’t guarantee” it would be smooth sailing between now and February, but the fact Taurua was on board was significant.

“The fact Kingi led the charge on the reinstatement of powhiri for everyone, I think, carries a lot of weight.”

While Taurua agreed to support Key’s invitation, he won’t be speaking on the marae at Waitangi because of his “personal views” about the Government’s signing of the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA).

But by 2:50 pm the he3adlin had changed to Protest warning after iwi decision to give John Key speaking rights at Waitangi and the lead paragraph is now:

A Ngapuhi elder held responsible for John Key ditching Waitangi this year has warned protests could flare up if the Prime Minister attends commemorations in February.

And later:

Kingi Taurua, a Ngapuhi elder, who earlier this year warned Key there would be riots if he turned up, said he didn’t know how far protesters would go next year.

Taurua said a lot of iwi were unhappy with him supporting Key’s invitation. While he won’t be involved in any protest, he said he also doesn’t have any control over them.

“If people don’t protest then the Government will think everything is above board. It’s not, so I think the protests should continue,” he said.

So Key will get an invitation with full speaking rights, but will anything change?

67 Comments

  1. Just don’t bother. Celebrate the day at the GG’s house in Wellington. Make it short and then go have a bbq JK. Give the radical shit stirrers nothing to live for.

    Cancel the ceremonies across all government in Waitangi. No Navy, nothing. Withdraw the cash the government sticks into Waitangi celebrations for the year.

    And then wait. And see if anyone outside the 2-3% who vote Maori Party and/or Mana actually matter.

    Nga Puhi protesting their lot in life is just the height of irony. The murderous thugs wrecked havoc across the land. And launched other tribes on wanderings which lead to more havoc. I think the shit state of Northland is karma for their brutish and nasty ways. They had all the advantages. Beautiful climate, goodish soil, plentiful kai from the moana plus early adoption of western technology via access to western shipping contacts in the BOI.

    They could have been anything… but instead it was all utu and death dealing. Karma is a bitch – they have reaped what they sowed.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  November 21, 2016

      Communal land ensures it is useless. The Maori Land Court ensures it is kept that way.

      • Gezza

         /  November 21, 2016

        Is it useless? Or is it just not being utilised as well as it could be because the Communal ownership system hasn’t developed into the kind of system that worked in Parihaka?

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  November 21, 2016

          It is useless. It hasn’t developed into a Parihaka system because most of the owners don’t want to live there or couldn’t even if they did and therefore are absentee. There is no incentive for those who do live there to do anything with it since the benefits would have to be shared amongst all those who don’t.

          • Gezza

             /  November 21, 2016

            I was checking where things stand at the moment with the Ngapuhi settlement negotiations, which I know were messy because Ngapuhi hadn’t agreed among themselves on who had a proper mandate to negotiate with the Crown. The government, to its credit imo, accepted the Waitangi Tribunal decision that that needed to be sorted out, and that that’s nearly settled now.

            But I came across this in my search, where at least one Ngapuhi Runanga seems to be maybe making a go of managing their resources to the ostensible benefit of their community and supporting young Maori with scholarships to complete business studies etc. I constantly see and read about Protestors and complainers yet these folk seem to getting on with trying to prudently manage & make the best use of the resources they already have, and report back on what they are doing, and not just waiting around for the settlement. I’ve never heard anything about this, Al. Do you have any thoughts on it?

            http://www.ngapuhi.iwi.nz/latest-stories.aspx

            • patupaiarehe

               /  November 21, 2016

              Hardly surprising that the MSM would rather focus on failures than success G.

            • Gezza

               /  November 21, 2016

              Exactly. l haven’t read much on that site yet, but don’t you think the whole tenor of that newsletter is positive and shows a commitment by some in the Runanga to investment in their youth and community, planning and forward thinking, and accountability to the iwi? Where’s the media support & encouragement for this? Where’s the focus on positive action by Maori for Maori – instead of just sensationalised negative press?

            • patupaiarehe

               /  November 21, 2016

              Well I guess that sort of thing doesn’t sell papers, or get as many ‘clicks’ as Kim K’s bum does…

            • Gezza

               /  November 21, 2016

              Yes I read somewhere he plans to stand for President in 2020.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  November 22, 2016

              It seems to be based in Kaikohe and I’ve had nothing to do with it so can’t comment. Kaikohe certainly needs positive and well-founded efforts.

      • True Alan.

  2. Gezza

     /  November 21, 2016

    Nope. Flag it away. It’s just become too divisive.

  3. In the process of searching for facts about how much Maori land truly does “lie idle” – that isn’t conservation or heritage reserve, productive farmland, residential development or marae reserve etc – I came across this website for The New Economics Party …

    I haven’t read it yet … something about a land tax … but I might join anyhow … I’ve never belonged to a political party … but kinda wish I had done … Social Credit …

    http://neweconomics.net.nz/index.php/tag/tandvaluetax/

    Anyone belong to TNEP or NEP already? How about a bit of an impartial review …?

    • Mmmm, only skim read a bit of it but this looks really interesting …

      Course they’re talking about actually solving problems which is a bit bloody radical eh!?

  4. ” … protests could flare up if the Prime Minister attends … ”

    Really!? No shit Sherlock? … Protests like they’ve had openly for 40+ years … or like Sir Apirana Ngata included in his official oratory at the Centennial Celebrations in 1940 …?

    It’s like some general says in the trailer for the new Mel Gibson movie ‘Hacksaw Ridge’ I just watched – “people do tend to get killed in a war” …

    When we’re celebrating something contentious there may tend to be some contention …

    Why would anything change? Because pakeha want it to? Or perhaps because pakeha can’t deal with contentious issues? I don’t believe that for a moment …

    • Gezza

       /  November 22, 2016

      The tikanga’s just too confused mate. It’s a formal occasion, he’s the pakeha primo rangatira, He’s welcome, and there’s frank, pono korero on the marae, or he’s not welcome, and there might be screaming abuse and mud thrown and wrestling with the police and hey that’s none of their business. And nobody ever knows what will happen. Best just to stay home until they sort this shit out.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  November 22, 2016

        There is a subculture that likes to go to a party and have it turn into a drunken fight but most pakeha don’t belong to it or want to have anything to do with it. That’s pretty much the story, PZ.

        • Pickled Possum

           /  November 22, 2016

          Al and PZ amuse me slightly when they talk about things Maori …not because they are pakeha butt because they pontificate about the good the bad and the just plain sad, and because it’s their reality, it must be REAL.
          and yes Al there is a fight club sub culture in ALL things, does that mean we cancel the party, and bend to the will of the ‘protesters’.
          Why any one celebrates Waitangi day I will never know, there is Nothing to celebrate lies deceit anger and the need for pakeha to always be in ‘Control’.
          Celebrating the slow death of a culture, just doesn’t make any sense to me.
          So if you don’t like the stuff that goes on at Waitangi and the reason it is held there every year, Don’t Go. oh that’s right yous don’t.
          As for Key, ngapuhi can have him.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  November 22, 2016

            Possum, yes, I don’t go to “Fight Club” parties. I don’t see that as letting the protesters win, simply as common sense and a vote against them.

            The slow death of a culture is the view in the rear vision mirror. If you look out in front you can see a world of opportunity with a myriad of influences, possibilities and choices. You can respect the past without being stuck in it.

            • I wonder if you’d say that Alan if it was your culture – which is pervasively all around us all the time [although diluted IMO] – and your language English that was dying …?

              And you knew, you just knew, in every cell of your being, that your culture wasn’t “savage and atrocious” …. certainly not by comparison to the coloniser’s one! That your tikanga did constitute ‘law’, that your hapu iwi did constitute a ‘polity’ and that your te Ao Maori was as relevant and meaningful as any Pagan, Greco-Roman or Christian ‘school’ of morality and philosophy …

              Its like this Alan: There’s going to be Marae Ture/Legislative Forum in Aotearoa New Zealand … an exciting new post-colonial democratic representation model of government … possibilities … choices … a myriad influences … bicultural and multicultural … as it should be … Just accept it …

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  November 22, 2016

              I don’t accept someone else’s future, PZ. I choose my own. I look back at my parent’s and grandparent’s world and culture as another country. I respect it and learn from it but I don’t hold onto it. Neither do I care what other people think or say about it since of course they don’t know as much about it as I do.

              For most Maori their language is English and Maori is a second language if that. Whether it lives or dies is their own future choice just as it is a choice for millions around the world to learn English – or Mandarin. I don’t believe that my choices are made for me by others which seems to be the assumption underlying much anger and frustration.

            • “I don’t accept someone else’s future, PZ. I choose my own.”

              Seems to me Alan, that you say this but you don’t accept someone else, a Maori hapu iwi for instance, saying exactly the same thing …

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  November 22, 2016

              Why? What have I ever said that suggests that?

  5. The real problem is that Maori do believe any sign of any concession to good manners will be misinterpreted by Pakeha as a sign of Maori weakness, so confrontation is here to stay. Ngapuhi are getting very close to becoming totally irrelevant to a multi-cultural society that New Zealand has become. They should move very quickly to seal their pay off for historical grievances, whatever they were because non-Maori patience has run out and are reluctant to continue funding the grievance industry. The Liberal marxist socialist time has gone. Be in quick bro or there will be no cash for “P”, crystal ice and Far North Happy Baccy any more.

    • Pickled Possum

       /  November 22, 2016

      BeeJay you talk of ‘Maori’ as if We were one people … which We are not,
      they are hapu iwi and most importantly individuals.
      To lump Maori into your view of P taking crystal ice FNH baccy users is just hurtful rubbish that scared pakeha spout … often ad nauseam.
      Your little story of ‘good manners’ vs weakness might be relevant in your turangawaewae of ngapuhi butt it is not the norm else where.
      The marae is a place where you can stand and voice your questions or complaints, why don’t you? every one welcomed.
      You write “non-Maori patience has run out and are reluctant to continue funding the grievance industry”
      well BJ our patience has run out, having to deal with rubbish like that before we even tackle the hard issues like Far North teenage suicides.
      Arm chair critics are In this world butt not of It.

      • PP you naughty girl, you forgot twas I that pointed out some time ago that Maori was an english noun created by the Missionaries that first produced a written standard version of the language you are quoting back to me. Yes, I knw about the canoes, the iwi, the hapu, the mountain the river and the forest that define an iwi. Unfortunately a number of young wahine like you revert to antagonistic criticism. Do you really believe that only Maori an understand the culture? Do you really believe that Maori have a monopoly of the truth about their culture and history. Do you think only Maori are capable of being guardians of the forest, the beaches, the ocean and the waters? Well if you do, you are living in a false world. I have suffered too often from your sort of rabid racism and will nor put up with any more of it without challenging the rubbish you have been indoctrinated with . Grow up, this is 2016 not 1649. Good luck with your problems with youth suicide in the Far North, it is not my fault, but it is a Maori failure to look after their own. I started life in Ngataki during WW2 and grew up with the people of Te Aupouri, Te Rawara, Ngapuhi and Ngati Kuri. My father devoted his life to improving the life of the people off the Far North. How dare you call me an armchair critic. Your threats are purile kencing ke angin!

        • Pickled Possum

           /  November 23, 2016

          Well Bj you can give it but can’t take it eh.
          Woop Dee Do old man care to translate your last little insult.
          There is no silly threat from me, just my own original opinion.
          For your information the Maori naming was not given from you to me but from my kaumatua to me.
          Just get over yourself and get some perspective, ie, like other people have an opinion that may not be the same as yours but it doesn’t make either of us the guardians of the truth.
          Your pontificating condescending and attitude of patronizing superiority is totally lost on this wahine and as for my little ditty Arm chair critics are In this world butt not of It. I have said that often to motivate the old people into not just sitting in their arm chairs saying “Oh look at that one! he/she is going to go for a skate soon” instead of saying out loud to the youngsters OIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!! You Cut It Out! Not afterwards when the he or she is dragged off to some institution mainly prison and then they say “Oh thought that would happen”.
          Old people who have no solutions should just listen to the wise ones. The wise ones are the ones who offer solutions that are workable.

          I mean NO insult and this letter should be read while listening to Neil Young song
          Old Man.

          In a time of universal deceit,
          telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

          • Gezza

             /  November 23, 2016

            👍

          • I am sory PP. Your words do not heal my determination to call foul the attempts of Maori to continue to preach the hate and negativity on people who had no part in events that determined our pre and post 1840 History. Do not bully me and others who had no part in that story. The innuendo of superiority has no place in our egalitarian society. Ask yourself what were the motivations of those that tried to inculcate you with a revisionist interpretation of our real history. Why do Maori demand control over investigation of their ancestry by scientific means, Why do they stop anthropological and true scientific exploration of the real History. I have no constraints at all in such investigations. Archeological researcn may actually prvide evidence of your claim to superiority as “first people” but you don’t allow it. Why, all the other cultures in this world welcome scientific examination of the truth, However I see from you comments that you do not have the willingness to accept that your oral history lacks scientific evaluation and proof. Incidentally, I would like to compare my background and achievements against yours in terms of looking after young New Zealanders. The biggest problem in New Zealand is the breakdown of the traditional Maori system of respect for elders, and the wahine wonder why they are being assaulted by their partners who are sick of being demeaned by ill-educated wahine who claim authority they have not earned.

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  November 23, 2016

              Are you Martin Doutre?

            • Pickled Possum

               /  November 24, 2016

              “The biggest problem in New Zealand is the breakdown of the traditional Maori system of respect for elders,”
              and who broke it down old man it was not us who said
              No more living as one people, off the papakainga off to the urban sprawl
              No more of your language
              No more of your matua whangai – open adoptions
              No more carvings in your marae
              No more of your myths and stories
              No more of your priests and their voo doo
              No more of your bush medicines
              You are now honorary pakeha of course with out honour

              If there was another people before us it is irrelevant, as the treaty was written and signed between the tangatawhenua and the colonizers albeit AGOS. The usurper people in NZ will find out how this feels when we are really invaded by not so nice immigrants, and will scream, rant and rave like bitches when your world is TAKEN from you, bet ya do bj. Just look at the days post about muslims. Check out Indians and dairies and SA coming here cos they were kicked out of ‘their’ country.

              Why compare background and acknowledgements BeeJay we obviously operate in different ways and it seems rather ‘Mines bigger than yours’ stylz.

              ‘Respect is earned’ say the western words not given out when you reach a certain age,
              Your wahine gets bashed for not respecting te tane scenario is awful and I find it prevalent in your culture not mine.
              ‘Ill educated wahine,’ are they educated at te public schools & private schools butt bj they are mostly if not all PAKEHA schools
              so, who’s teaching who, all their tricks?
              Pakeha people who say they help the Maori people help them the pakeha way,

    • A ‘balanced and reasonable’ view from BJMarsh1 … No derision there …

      You could go on talk-back radio and say that sorta stuff BJ … eh bro!?

    • Gezza

       /  November 22, 2016

      My patience hasn’t run out Bj. I just don’t want to see the mud slinging any more. From either side.

      • In that case Gezza, if you don’t go to Waitangi next year, watch Maori Television’s coverage … You’ll see the welcoming joy, the celebration and the commemoration in much more wholesome perspective than the impression we get from MSM ‘polarisers’ …

        • Gezza

           /  November 22, 2016

          I’ve never done that. That sounds like a good idea. If its all or largely in te reo a lot of it may not be understandable to me, but it would be interesting to see coverage by both msm, for which we all seem to share universal disdain, and maori media. There’s a clash of tihanga here that makes me think the whole idea of celebrating Waitangi day as the birth of our nation, or national identity, is just never going to be acceptable those who see it as the defeat of their nations.

          • My experience both on marae and Waitangi – via Maori television – is that people can stand as BOTH – tangata whenua and protestor – or manuhiri and representative of dominant culture – and individual, group affiliate, Maori or pakeha or mixed race or ‘other’ or non-Maori or whatever ALL AT THE SAME TIME …

            I suspect Maori see Te Tiriti o Waitangi and Waitangi Day as a celebration of *potential* victory and accomplishment, the establishment of their new ‘partnership’ nation … ? Except that potential has not been very fully realised … largely thwarted by ‘Crown’ pakeha duplicity … The Treaty broken … the agreement not kept …

            Yet Maori still celebrate … They still extend the invitation … and their leaders say things like …

            ““Kua tawhiti kē to haerenga mai, kia kore e haere tonu. He nui rawa o mahi, kia kore e mahi tonu: You have come too far not to go further, you have done too much not to do more.” – Ta Himi Henare (Sir James Henare)

            • Gezza

               /  November 22, 2016

              I suspect it’s best for me not speculate on what “Maori’ believe because their views are diverse, not only individually, but by hapu, on many issues, as are those of non-Maoti.

            • Well, there’s generalisation and there’s ‘generalisation’ isn’t there?

              I’m always happy to be corrected … That’s what I take ‘discussion’ to be for … learning as well as expressing my considered, flexible opinions …

            • Gezza

               /  November 22, 2016

              True, and the shorter they get, the more I often like them. 😀
              I gotta go out. I’ll catch up later. Wouldn’t mind hearing from Ben and Jeeves in this discussion, and anybody else with a more Maori-oriented viewpoint.

      • Pickled Possum

         /  November 22, 2016

        Better Duck then my bro, there is a shit load of mud coming our way … gone has the time of sitting on the fence, people now have to choose which camp they sit in … this made even harder by the gang at the pit digging the hole, making a new kind of teflon mud.
        If pakeha say we people who identify as the tangatewhenua people of the land, want to retain our history culture language and way of living, are just wanting to retain a stone age culture, then why??? do pakeha always fall back on negative wrong Maori history? written always by a pakeha. All I want for Xmas is an understanding that we are both different and boogie on.

        • Gezza

           /  November 22, 2016

          But what is it exactly that YOU want to change, and what do you expect from non-maori in terms of national governance arrangements, bearing in mind we’re not a whakapapa-whanau-tribal-canoe-based single people either, and where we are is where we are.

          • What do you think of the Matike Mai Aotearoa possibilities Gezza? The tricameral model of government …?

            Or Maori inclusion in the much more localised models of governance I am beginning to read about at The New Economics Party? [Still early skim reading on my part] http://neweconomics.net.nz/

            • Gezza

               /  November 22, 2016

              I read it in sections. I’ll go back to again I found it interesting. I haven’t sorted out in my mind how the goverance arrangements would work, how and which law would apply to whom in what areas and who would decide.

            • Simplistically I took it to describe a Maori Forum, a Pakeha Forum (much like Parliament now but I guess without Maori seats) and a third ‘Relational Forum’ … At this stage I imagine legislation only being enacted at the point where these three spheres intersect, the ‘relational sphere’ …

              However, who knows how things might develop over time? For instance, a Maori justice system might prove highly successful in dealing with Maori offenders, reduce recidivism and, along with other initiatives reducing crime, might prove worth extending and expanding into other areas …

            • Gezza

               /  November 22, 2016

              Re a Maori justice system I think something like that is being trialled in some sectors of the youth justice system. The concept of the hapu using whakama for the harm to the good of the Community as part of the sanction and correction intrigued me. But I’m also thinking in terms of, if, say, the offences are against pakeha by maori, and vice versa, who should determine the sanction and correctional method – the victim, the offender, the judge, the family/whanau, and how does one get agreement from all the interested & affected parties? The scale of incarceration in this country for offences of violence is shameful.

          • Pickled Possum

             /  November 22, 2016

            What I want to change is the negativity surrounding te tangatawhenua and give more positive stories and to be treated as a partner of this country … or a mokopuna of the founding people. Not just trotted out at football games singing a ditty.
            Our history is huge and rich with many great stories of love survival great escapes of mana maori, remember what Rommel said about the maori soldiers? it was …Erwin Rommel remarked,”Give me the Maori Battalion and I will conquer the world”
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_Battalion
            What I expect from non-maori in terms of national governance is the *Understanding that WE are a whakapapa-whanau-tribal-canoe-based first people. and then get on with where we are is where we are.
            *Understanding … the ability to understand something; comprehension
            sympathetic awareness or tolerance.

            Re your reply to Parti watching Maori Television on Waitangi day … you will not have to korero maori as it is broadcast in english and if any speeches are filmed in te reo there will be an option of subtitles, the te reo channel will have it in te reo only.

            • Gezza

               /  November 22, 2016

              Thank you e sis. I understand that and I agree with you.

            • PP, you may claim status of “First People” as tangatawhenua, but I do not believe that is factually correct. The “First People” of New Zealand (the Tree People and the Maoriora were in place before the canoes arrived and were wiped out or assimilated as slaves by the “canoe” people. Your revisionist history has no merit. The assertion of “Tangatawhenua” “Taukei” “orang asli” and” Bumiputera” as First nation imitation of the US Native people status. I will never allow any person regardless of antecedents to claim any birth rights other than citizenship. One people, ine law. one justice, no privilege.

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  November 22, 2016

              Citation again BJ. And not one that’s a link to http://www.celticnz.co.nz, Martin Doutré is a real revisionist.

  6. AC, well I would start with a read of “One Treaty, One Nation” the book all New Zealanders need to read. That confirms by drawing attention to Cape Reinga as the departing place of Maori people to their legendary home Haiwaiki, and points out that if Maori were truly tangatawhenua of New Zealand, why would they want to return to their spiritual home. In fact, Dr Stephen Marshall doing research at Victoria University of Wellington for his PHd established a DNA linkage of Maori to China, probably the inhabitants of Hainan. His research requires access to thesis at VUW, and has been advanced (confirmed0 in recent times. New I would look for a copy of the History of Waikawa by D Shepherd et al in which evidence of the “Tree People” in the Horowhenua coast al region is describe. Note that research in this area has been apparently proscribed until some time in the future. Rumour as it that Maori have objected to archeological research in this area so as not to prejudice their oral history recorded by the Waitangi Tribunal. Lastly, I would recommend a careful reading of the “New Zealand Historical Atlas” Ko Papatuanuku e Takoto Nei, in which there are detailed explanations as to limitations of the oral history methodology (you will need to be a discerning reader) used by the Waitangi Tribunal. The dearth of actual archeological evidence to back up the revisionist history taught as gospel at the Universities does no credit to the integrity of our scholars. There is another side to the story you know.

    I can provide other readings such as where to go to establish the academic processes for archeological research, and then you can write the book that rebuts the grievance industry.
    The notes of Mr Justice Fox sitting in the Maori Land Court in Kaitaia uring the 1940s and 50s will also be a useful primer on the integrity and fairness of the Jusges of the Land Court rather than the revisionist treatment of their intent as is rife in the Treaty Industry.
    ” .

    • Anonymous Coward

       /  November 22, 2016

      Here’s something you can read, it doesn’t mention “tree people”, but it does touch on proscribed research and the conspiracy theory’s that swirl around it. More importantly it touches on what motivation there a re for claiming “tree people” or Doutre’s “Ancient Celts”

        • AC been there and read that long ago. I lived up north and knew about and visited the stone “dwellings” that are actually a natural formation in the Waipua Native Kauri Forest Reserve. I am still not persuaded that any iwi has a claim to first people. I actually understand the mythology of TE OROKOHANGANGA MAI O TE AO before Ranganui and Papatuanuku – the world origin and TE AO MARAMA The World of Light leading toTE IKA-A-MAUI , and TE WAKA-OMAUI. But see them as allegorical not historical. That dos not mean that I deprecate the stories of Maui’s travels in Aotearoa, but using his grand mothers jawbone to catch up Te Ika a Maui and beating off a huge octopus on the West Coast North Island stretches my credibility. Why isn’t the South Island not called Te Waka a Maui? Have you been to Taipa to the inlet where Kupe made one of many calls in NZ. The magnificent carving erected there in the 1950’s as a memorial rotted away and disappeared. May be a precursor of the riotous behaviour of the Taipa School students in the last week ?

          • While it is very possible and/or acknowledged that people visited these islands before major Polynesian migration, and even long before, and that they possibly even dwelt here for periods of time; the search for pakeha indigeneity, guilt-alleviation, solace and reality-obfuscation has thrown up some proper crackpots and nutters, among them Doutre and Barry Brailsford …

            As Michael King commented about Brailsford’s 67 generation ‘Waitaha People’, “There was [is] not a skerrick of evidence – linguistic, artifactual, genetic; no datable carbon or pollen remains, nothing – that the story had any basis in fact. Which would make Waitaha the first people on earth to live in a country for several millennia and leave no trace of their occupation.”

            The fact is Te Tiriti o Waitangi was signed by representatives of the Crown on behalf of Victoria’s Empire and her settlers; and by rangatira representing hapu iwi tangata whenua, later commonly called ‘Maori’, the indigenous peoples of these islands at the time. Since hapu iwi have survived and are recognised in [pakeha] law, their claim to ‘First Nation’ status is perfectly legitimate.

            I don’t see what the problem is with any of this? Unless it’s giving hapu iwi Maori a true ‘partnership’ stake in the running of Aotearoa New Zealand? I wonder if that might be it …?

            • PZ, you can believe that if you like. However, I have real doubts about the basis of the oral histories reliant on songs and chants some of which took days to recount. I prefer to rely on archeological proof such as the carbon dating of the rat bones that extends the presence of people in NZ back before 1200 CA. I also remind you of what the old people said in Whangarei in 1990
              “We know our story, we know the truth of our past,’ say the elders. ‘It is not for others to decide our past, to question if we ever existed and write our story to meet their expectations.”

              “In 1991 Dr Richard Holdaway, an extinction biologist, stunned the academic world when he published a paper that said Pacific Rat bones he had recovered during an excavation in a South Island cave returned a radio-carbon date that placed them in Aotearoa at least 2,000 years ago. This was a huge surprise to him and everyone else; they were here 1200 years too soon.

              These rats were not native to Aotearoa and unlike the Norwegian Rat they can’t swim. They could only reach this far-flung land as stowaways on vessels navigated by people. Such was the excitement about this dating that Dr Holdaway was challenged to find and provide more rat bone to be C14 dated. He recovered more rat bone in a North Island cave in Hawkes Bay. In addition he recovered bird bone and ensured his finds were excavated below the ash of a known volcanic eruption reliably dated as 230 AD.

              The results added fuel to the flames because the original 2,000-year-old dates held up and some bones were even older. This added credibility to his earlier results.

              The presence of the rats as an indicator of human arrival is still a matter of great debate. However, at a New Zealand archaeological conference a few years ago, when asked for a show of hands, 52% voted that there were people here before the established date of 1200 AD.”
              http://barry-brailsford-indigenous-knowledge.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/what-evidence-supports-waitaha.html

  7. @ BJ – Three things: 1) Maori recognise antecedents, as far as I know, e.g. “Waitaha is an early historical Māori iwi (tribe or nation). Inhabitants of the South Island of New Zealand, they were largely absorbed via marriage and conquest first by the Kāti Mamoe and then Ngāi Tahu from the 16th century onward. Today those of Waitaha descent are represented by the Ngāi Tahu iwi.[1] … Another iwi known as Waitaha is said to have lived in antiquity in the Horowhenua area of the lower North Island.” – Wikipedia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waitaha

    Or alternatively, Waitaha – The Chinese colony that settled in NZ 2000 years ago …

    http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/1-the-waitaha-people-%E2%80%93-a-chinese-colony-that-settled-in-new-zealand-2000-years-ago/

    Or … Ruins may show Incas beat Maori to NZ

    .gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/2-ruins-may-show-incas-beat-maoris-to-new-zealand/

    2) In some traditions the ancestor Toitehuatahi arrived from Hawaiki, and in others he was born in New Zealand. Tribes are proud to claim they are descended from Toi, and the Ngāti Awa people say his village overlooked the Bay of Plenty, near present-day Whakatāne.

    http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/first-peoples-in-maori-tradition

    3) Its all interesting conjecture and no-one wants the process of discovering ‘history’ to stop BJ … or to prevent people selling their books … but it makes absolutely no difference to the fact of which peoples, hapu iwi Maori and Pakeha, made a Treaty compact at Waitangi which founded the nation of New Zealand … one day to become Aotearoa New Zealand …

  8. It is a pity that some Elders don’ share your approach to research. There are a number of really interesting sites that have been found which raise important questions about the real history of New Zealand that have been immediately declared tapu and the artefacts regarded as taonga not to be open to non-Maori investigation, despite them not being of proven Maori origin. I am specifically talking abut the prehistory of New Zealand. Have you looked at the 13th Century Global Map used by Chinese Admiral Zheng Ho (aka Cheng Ho) the eunuch whose grand fleet are credited by the Chinese for discovering New Zealand . He died in 1333 or 1435. His map shows New Zealand’s islands in remarkable detail both of them, and a distorted map of Australia. I have heard anecdotes that there are Chinese folios which describe New Zealand. Perhaps that will explain where the kiore came from originally, if we could get hold of the journals and translate them.

    • Anonymous Coward

       /  November 24, 2016
      • The map is thought by sinologist J.J.L. Duyvendak to have been part of the library of Mao Kun, a collector of military and naval material, who might have acquired it while he was the governor of Fujian.[3] The map was included in Wubei Zhi edited by his grandson Mao Yuanyi, and therefore had been referred to in the past as the “Wubei Zhi chart”.[1] In order to distinguish it from other maps in Wubei Zhi, the map was named after Mao Kun by Western scholars such as J. V. G. Mills who studied the map, and therefore came to be known as Mao Kun map in Western sources.[4]
        The preface to the map in Wubei Zhi indicates that the geographical and navigational details of the charts are based on works from the expeditions of Zheng He, and that Mao had “inserted them for the information of posterity and as a memento of [Zheng He’s] military achievement”.[5][6] The map is therefore generally considered to be based on maps dating to the time of Zheng He’s voyages,[7][8] and accordingly named as Zheng He’s Navigation Map in modern Chinese sources.[9][10]
        According to Mills, the map may not have been the work of a single person, rather it was produced in an office with information added and corrected when new information became available after each voyage. He suggested that this map may have been prepared for the 6th expedition in 1421, with some content added during the course of the expedition, and that the map may therefore be dated to around 1422.[11] Others proposed a date sometime between 1423 to 1430.[9] It has also been suggested by J.J.L. Duyvendak and Paul Pelliot that the map may have been partly based on Arab nautical charts.[11]
        Wikipedia comment on map I was referring to.

      • Hopefully this will show the map I was referring to:
        “The document, he says, is an 18th century copy of Admiral Zheng He’s 1417 map. Mr Menzies argues that it clearly shows North American rivers and coasts, as well as the continent of South America.

        Mr Menzie’s assertion about Zheng He’s voyage to the New World isn’t new – he first wrote about it in 2002 – but the map is.

        Mr Liu had the map authenticated by an appraiser from Christie’s Auctions, who said that the document was ‘very old’ and was not a newly-made fake.

        After Mr Liu brought the map forward, Menzies also had a team of historians analyze every word on it. He concluded that it was originally written in the Ming Dynasty – a Chinese period that lasted from 1368 to 1644.”

        So, the jury is out, I know that there are several other historians who criticise Menzies claims. I don;t know who to believe, you pays your money and makes your choice. That incidentally is why I was looking for the Admiral’s journals,

        • Anonymous Coward

           /  November 24, 2016

          My comments are being held back and take some time to show, so conversation is hard.
          There are very many reasons not to believe Menzies and the 1418 map. Menzies book lacks any references for travels by Zheng He that extend beyond East Africa – that should be warning enough. It’s a nice story though.

          While we’re quoting from the article I linked to here’s the caveat from the end.

          It is a dual-hemisphere map, a cartographic tradition exclusively European. California is represented as an island, copied straight from European maps of the 17th century.
          China is placed at the centre of the map as it was in early Jesuit maps of the world produced in China. It is based on a rough copy of a Jesuit map of the world.

          The eunuch Zheng He is referred to as Ma San-bao. No one would have dared to use his original name given that the emperor had assigned him the surname Zheng.

          The amount of non-coastal detail (including riverine systems extending thousands of miles from the coast) indicate that these maps could not have been produced by maritime voyagers. The information in the maps was obviously amassed over time by cultures who had travelled widely. It fits perfectly within the history of European cartography, but is a complete anomaly in Chinese cartography.

          The Himalayas are marked as the highest mountains in the world. This fact was only discovered in the 19th century.

          And from the New York Times….

          If the map genuinely dates to 1418, it reveals knowledge of longitude and latitude and the basic shape of the world, including the fact that it is round, that could not have come from European sources and could only have been derived from Zheng He’s voyages, Liu says.

          But Gong Yingyan, a historian at Zhejiang University and a leading map expert, says the map is too full of anachronisms to date from the 15th century. He said, for example, that Chinese cartographers did not use the style of projection seen in Liu’s map – a three-dimensional globe on a flat sheet – until after Europeans introduced the technique to the Chinese much later.

          The map’s Chinese notes about the cultures, religious and features of people in the continents of the world also contain vocabulary that would have been unfamiliar to a reader in the early 15th century, he said. He cited the term the map uses for the Western God, which he said was not used until after the Jesuits arrived in China in the 16th century.

          That’s too many things wrong with it for me to believe it is what it is claimed to be.

          • Okay you are anti-Menzis, and I have reservations about the work he has published as well. However, somewhat painfullyIhave been looking for Chinese academic research on the good Admiral’s journey. I actually do believe they occurred and he stands in my view ahead of all the great European and other (Polynesian, Micronesian and Melanesian ) explorers in terms of exploration. The number of years he spent at sea are impressive. I also am convinced by his description of the peoples he met on his journey. I have been fortunate enough to have traveled to most of the places he claims to have visited and agree with his description of the character of the various people he met. Look at his description of Australian orang asli, it was immensely accurate. Unfortunately, we do not have accepted translation of his chronicles so debating truth or otherwise is nugatory in result.

    • @ BJ – I’ve read ‘1421’ and find it incredibly interesting and quite credible. There is, as far as I know, plausible evidence of Chinese junks visiting Aotearoa, including the wreckage of two, I believe, and of their leaving behind Chinese and more specifically Tibetan people … who were the lowest in the pecking order if one ship’s crew had to be taken onboard another …

      It’s all very fascinating. However, constantly harping on about it when the subject of Te Tiriti o Waitangi arises, supposedly as definitive evidence hapu iwi Maori are not tangata whenua, is frankly ludicrous … It’s like saying Hobson wasn’t a representative of British people because he wasn’t an ancient Pict.

      Where were these prior inhabitants when the Treaty was being signed?

      And, incidently, I am not advocating Rule by Conquest in saying that. There is not sufficient evidence of prior inhabitants let alone their extinction by Maori … This is Kiwi FrontLine stuff and it does not wash with me … It falsely attempts to let pakeha out of their ‘partnership’ responsibilities under Te Tiriti …

      “In reality, there is no sinister ‘establishment’ that acts to enforce a single viewpoint about New Zealand prehistory and repress the views of people like Doutre. Scholars are divided on all manner of questions concerning our past. The difference between them and pseudo-scholars like Doutre is that they base their reasoning on the evidence available, and not on wild conspiracy theories … If Maori only took control of these islands as a result of a ‘genocide’ of [Celtic] Europeans and if Maori taonga like, say, the magnificent carvings at Auckland museum were actually produced by Europeans, then Maori lose their mana, and seem actually to deserve the treatment which was meted out to them by colonisers’ armies and governments.” – Scott Hamilton.

      http://books.scoop.co.nz/2008/11/18/no-to-nazi-pseudo-history-an-open-letter/

      • Anonymous Coward

         /  November 24, 2016

        I linked to that yesterday, he claims to have already read it long ago. He mustn’t have read the same thing we read, as I get the same message from it as you. There are a lot of people in New Zealand that are scrambling to prove that a) Maori aren’t the first people, and b) the first people had to be white, and maori killed them and this is white man land.

      • If I haven’t been perfectly clear, anecdotal stories exist of Tibetan people being absorbed into established Maori hapu iwi circa 1421 …

        I wonder why Maori didn’t just eat them?

        However, what we Europeans call “prehistory” – which appears to simply mean the history of anything that’s NOT superior ‘European’ cultures and civilisations, recorded in writing – probably looks very different to a Maori person, having been conveyed through generations by whakapapa, stories and waiata … of living their culture …

        One might wonder, perhaps, given their experience of pakeha duplicity, whether they would even tell us their ‘true’ his/herstory if we asked them? Some of us at least?

        Obfuscation is one thing to a dominant culture, but it may be a necessary survival mechanism to an oppressed one …?

  9. PZ, sorry mate you just passed a red line in your comments. This has nothing to do with Te Teriti or any assertion of European pre-eminence but genuine questioning of where we are who we are. Your use of the pejorative “Pakeha duplicity” shows your prejudice. What would you do if I said “Maori continued rape of the pakeha economy”? Let us keeo this civilised if you can. Do not expect me to resile from calling bullshit when I detect it. There is too much revisionist history being integrated into the ew Zealand myth.