Open Forum – Sunday

4 December 2016

Facebook: NZ politics/media+

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  1. Corky

     /  4th December 2016

    So New Zealand has woken up to forced marriages happening under our noses. But that’s not really the issue is it? That’s just a pusy head on the sore of non-integration.

    Why don’t we learn from overseas experience? There wouldn’t be a problem if we didn’t let these people in, or passed a law for instant deportation back to their country of origin if charges of forced marriages were proved. Why are we fugging up our beautiful sanctuary ?

    Of course the other problem that goes with forced marriage is forced genital mutilation. Britain has a huge problem with this and my bet is its rampant in New Zealand. A way to tackle that problem would be forced medical inspections of all Muslim girls leaving New Zealand during December and returning in late January. Instant deportation for the whole family should such a case be proven. Should the operation be preformed in New Zealand, the penalty should be five years jail for followed by deportation.

    From the article:

    “What I thought was, I am going to a Western country – my life would get better and I would have a good life. But the reality was I was treated like an animal,”

    Those sentiments are very telling of the Muslim way of life. The reverse is also true. Western women who have married lovely Muslim guys in the West suddenly find they act completely different in their homeland. A couple of back hands are the reply for any Infidel behaviour. Pity these women didn’t know about Taqiyya.

    • Yes, happening in a neighbourhood near you, and it’s pretty well a futile exercise to address it. We have an industry of immigration based around adult “students” graduating to residency and a liberal and seemingly endless family reunification program for people from third world, misogynist cultures. Many have no respect for secular or Western culture and no desire to assimilate, just seeking prosperity and they certainly won’t be seeking independent, outspoken wives from the host country. These men, and their families if here, want financial gain, power and compliance. The imbalance between a NZ passport/husband/buyer v the foreign/wife/seller couldn’t be more uneven, and the wheels are set in motion for a lifetime of abuse and servitude. These marriages are completely at odds with a Western values system, but will anything change? No.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  4th December 2016

        Where are the Lefty feminists?

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  4th December 2016

          I am not defending abusive forced marriages, but would guess that they are a minority. Either that or the Muslim couples I see are brilliant actors and actresses and should be in Hollywood. One would have to know what % of Muslim marriages are abusive as opposed to the % of Western or even arranged marriages. I knew an estate agent, a very elegant, self-confident woman whose marriage had been a violent and abusive one. My ex-partner was violent and abusive at times, going as far as attempted murder. A male friend married a woman who was physically and mentally abusive. A widowed friend of my mother married again, a charming, handsome man who proved to be physically, sexually and verbally abusive. My brother’s great friend when he was a boy had a mother who phyically abused his father. Nobody knew what to do about it. He was a big man who could have knocked her into the middle of next week had he retaliated.

          When I was a child, I used to wish that the big, handsome, charming .Uncle’ ________ was MY father; I adored him. It wasn’t until I was an adult that my mother told me that ‘Uncle _________ was an abusive, violent man in his own home. She saw more than once the results of what he did to his wife. She had triplets, which meant 5 children under 5. She felt trapped, and nobody who hadn’t seen what my mother saw would have believed that the big, handsome, sunny-natured man was the man who could do the things to a small, slight woman with little chance of retaliation that he did. She would neither leave him nor report him. I suppose that he was sorry that she had provoked him into doing it and it wouldn’t happen again…yeah, right.

          • Corky

             /  4th December 2016

            All of that doesn’t matter, Kitty. The folk you talk of , I presume, are native born New Zealanders. That’s our problem…that’s our people. And I concede, we have a problem. But its a problem, once identified, that can be dealt with.

            Muslims aren’t our people. They don’t have our ways. Most will not integrate, they will just tolerate us ( we misread that for integration). Why do we waste time on them…they waste little time on us.?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  4th December 2016

              Many Muslims are our people.

              If ‘our ways’ include attempted murder, beatings, kicking, marital rape (as happened to my mother’s friend in her second marriage) and other such things, it does matter. If we had no domestic violence except among Muslims, you would have a point.

              You obviously don’t live somewhere where Muslims are part of the community. What about the ones who are born here ?

              The ones who risked their lives as translators for NZ are glad to be here. There are some things that everyone in a country does, regardless of race or religion.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  4th December 2016

              If one divides the number of reported violent Muslim forced marriages, it’s a tiny %. I only wish that the rest of us had such a small number-not that numbers mean anything to victims. It would have been a poor consolation to me to know that I was one of only X who were seriously injured in a hit and run.

              I would say that someone who’s a doctor is pretty well integrated. Even the Pak & Save girls seem to be. They wear black scarves-the P & S colours are black and yellow. Anyone whose religion calls for a headdress simply has it in the corporate colour-no problem.

            • @Kitty Catkin – “I would say that someone who’s a doctor is pretty well integrated. Even the Pak & Save girls seem to be.”

              It needs to be borne in mind that Islam does not expect its believers to integrate, it expects the host country to integrate with Islam. Muslims are permitted – in line with the doctrine of kitman (secrecy, or the concealment of things in process until they are complete) – to appear integrated, even assimilated. This can go beyond the first generation, with so many cases of reversion to piety that their children show. Islam is essentialist like no other religion, and threatens those who want to leave with death. Seems to work.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  5th December 2016

              That sounds like paranoid xenophobia.Generalise, do ! If NZ’s Muslims expect that, they will be disappointed-and I don’t think that they are that stupid.

            • Not at all, these observations are grounded in Islam’s history, its essentialism, the obligations it imposes on its believers, its doctrines of tawheed and fitra, jihad, hijra, dawa, taqiyya, kitman and muruna, the statements of its ulema, yaqeen, Arabic and Egyptian global investments in mosques masjids and madrassas, the course of current events, and the management of discourse in the media, tertiary institutions and the public space. As obvious as this seems to many, it is evidently hidden from some.

              The only opinion I have of this is that it is not a good thing, based on the fact that Islamic countries fail in every civilisational standard (bar one – tax payments in oil-rich states) and the the sole cause of this is their religion. It is incapable of uniting people, but more than capable of energising them to conquer dar al-harb and everyone else they perceive as un-Islamic.

              It is a categorical and solipsistic error to assume that Muslims one meets represent the religion. Islam is best judged by its agenda – a matter of record – and the success of its believers in imposing it on the non-Islamic world – again a matter of record. That people imagine that Islam is just another religion like Christianity or Buddhism is a fatal error for Western civilisation. To ignore its benefits and criticise its failings is a miscalculation leading to a monumental catastrophe for future generations. The Middle East was majority Christian, but its civilisations were destroyed by Islam. Now it’s the West’s turn.

              Islam is destroying what remains of Christianity and secular democracy – the world’s most successful polity – and it will replace it with an all-encompassing religion that brings nothing with it but violent division.

              What side are you on? Is this future what you really wish for?

            • Blazer

               /  4th December 2016

              ‘the press superficially covers the plight of millions of immigrants and refugees who would never have left their jobs and homes were it not for the US destruction of the Middle East and North Africa. The respectable media defend the US officials directly responsible for the plight of these migrants flooding and threatening to destabilize Europe.’…..cause and effect…Prof James Petrus.

        • Blazer

           /  4th December 2016

          Apparantly arranged marriages are very successful.

          • Evidence?

            “The distinction between arranged marriage and forced marriage [is] a bluff.” Unni Wikan, Generous Betrayal, p253.

            And it wasn’t for the profoundly disabled girl (there’s a lot of those in Islam because of cousin marriage) who was very excited about marriage because she could wear a Minnie Mouse dress including the ears, and could have a baby boy – not having any idea about what was involved. But this sort of thing helps shunt hundreds, if not thousands, of Muslims into Europe and permanent residence.

      • Lefty feminists wouldn’t bother discussing things with you Alan …

        But seriously, I’m all for reducing the risk of forced marriage, genital mutilation and other expressions of ‘imported’ misogyny by reducing immigration. The only thing to remember is that this phenomenon has come skipping along hand-in-hand with Milton, Roger and Ruth’s global financialisation and ‘free market’ globalisation programs ….

        So if you’re prepared to forego (and foreclose on) the Foreign Student Education and Skilled (& not-so-skilled) Foreign Worker importation industries, good luck to you …

        This can ultimately only be done by electing a government willing to forego these lucrative, enterprising, innovative ‘free market’ expressions of your very own prefered ‘globalisation’ enterprise … which begins to look a shade hypocritical …

        Or, alternatively and ironically, exactly as you constantly accuse ‘Lefties’ of doing, just sit back and complain about immigration without mentioning that its your own preferred National government promulgating and encouraging it …

        Oh no, of course, I forgot … its the fault of the previous Labour government … Not the Rogernomics one … that was a really GOOD Labour government … the ‘other’ one …

    • Corky

       /  4th December 2016

      I need to clarify this part of my comments.

      ” A way to tackle that problem would be forced medical inspections of all Muslim girls leaving New Zealand during December and returning in late January. ”

      That time of the year in Britain is called ” cutting time.” Because of the long school holiday it allows girls to be flown overseas, operated on and given time to heal before resuming school.

  2. Mohamed Hassan – Public Enemy

    I wrote this response to Radio New Zealand regarding Hassan’s three-part series looking at the growing Muslim communities in the United States, Australia and New Zealand, and how elections, counter-terrorism policies, war and xenophobia have impacted their lives.

    “Mohamed Hassan’s sympathetic presentation of Muslims’ grievances and ‘Islamophobia’ is another episode in an unrelenting series of Radio New Zealand’s programmes supporting Islam and its exponential growth in New Zealand as in other Western countries.

    It was predictable, totally one-sided, and carried nothing in the way of insight into underlying issues. So far, so Radio New Zealand.

    I wish I could look forward to Radio New Zealand examining issues such as Islam’s policy of vicinal arrogation, where Muslims will colonise existing suburbs to the cultural exclusion of others, imposing sharia law and Islamic standards regardless of others’ beliefs. It results in the many hundreds of no-go zones across Europe, Thailand’s and Burma’s problems with Rohingyas, and the disaffection of ordinary people who feel alienated in their own countries resulting in the rise of the populist right. Eventually it will result in civil war.

    I’d like to see a programmed dedicated to Islam’s policy of retributive subsidiarity, where Muslims are enjoined to carry out violent actions in the perceived defence of Islam. The consequence of this is increasing throughout the world, with jihadi attacks, suicide bombers, lone wolves, the killing of a shopkeeper for wishing his clients an enjoyable Easter or a soldier just for being a soldier, or the lessons in Islamic awareness I get at every airport’s boarding gate. You could examine the huge increases in security and intelligence costs associated in keeping New Zealanders safe from Islam’s more active contingent.

    National Radio’s audience figures would perk up if it were to bring its listeners an explication of Islam’s sexual mores, its implicit pederasty or its explicit paedophilia in its child-marriage laws. While the former explains the rush for boys to grow beards, the latter is the absolute repudiation of female emancipation, but even feminists seem loath to give expression to protest.

    There could be a programme about the contrast between the intensity and obsession of Islam’s believers and their countries with the societal progress that secular states have made. After all, in EVERY measure of civilisation, Western states dominate and Islamic states fail.

    Perhaps the programme we are least likely to hear from Radio New Zealand will be one where the role of the management of discourse in the West’s succumbing to Islam’s conquest is examined, because it will be too close to home. But of all subjects related to the the epochal change we are witnessing, this is the most crucial. It has eliminated our defences.

    The sort of programmes that Radio New Zealand presents about Muslims and Islam require more than just a simple ignorance of Islam’s unbridgeable moral differences with the West. It needs a wilful blindness to evidence, facts, statements, activities, scriptural texts, history and the testimony of objective, wise and educated Western-orientated commentators.

    Instead, it listens to Muslims, who, by virtue of their religion, are required to bring the West into submission to the will of Allah. And thanks to the likes of Mohamed Hassan, to the great shame of journalists and broadcasters, they are succeeding.

    Yours sincerely

    • I’m alarmed, astonished and horrified that Judge Judith Rowe actually supports such nuttery being imposed upon children who were being freed from it. This is the madness of the clerisy running and ruining the West in the name of multiculturalism.

    • Blazer

       /  4th December 2016

      well combing curls on the Sabbath is pushing things.

      • @ Alan @ KitSlater – You make it sound like these Satmar and other ultra-orthodox Jewish sect ‘communities’ have only just appeared on the face of the earth.

        Presumably they have existed in the UK throughout, including during successive waves of immigration from India, Pakistan, the West Indies and Africa …

        So the ‘problem’ isn’t them per se, is it? The problem is the West’s slow dawning awareness that these ‘communities’ exist, that our way is not the only way and our endeavours to recognise and accommodate their differences …

        “disaffection of ordinary people who feel alienated in their own countries” is nothing new to most of these people [and many, many more in distant lands]. They experienced generations of it under colonial rule and, when that came to an end they were invited to come and live in the land of the colonial rulers and be second-class citizens there as well …

        I’m not advocating Sharia law or anything …. Just saying …

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  4th December 2016

          No, the problem is people who believe in stupid things that don’t exist as Gezza has explained so eloquently. The world has too many of them.

        • @PartisanZ – Hasidic sects’ main value is spectator entertainment, but to their credit don’t enforce their absurd beliefs onto others. (Seems they’ve got nutcase judges for that.) Not the case in Israel where they are becoming threat to its economy and security by not pulling their weight. And in the West “that these ‘communities’ exist, that our way is not the only way” badly affects national unity and trust. Robert Putnam argues in E Pluribus Unum that Europe’s generous redistributionist welfare states can only work if people have a strong sense of social solidarity. If you have diversity, which is divisive, Europe is in huge trouble.

          Say what you like about colonial rule, but it represented a startling increase in education, healthcare, employment, governance and infrastructure. That many thought they could achieve things themselves through violent overthrow of their colonial masters hasn’t worked too well, has it? Zimbabwe is the poster child for a lot of failed African states, but – hey – it makes the Islamic world look good – well, better, anyway.

          • You are quasi-correct in a bizarre ‘academic’ sort of way Kit: Disconnected and dissociated from its sources and causes, the violent overthrow of colonial masters hasn’t worked too well in some cases …

            Problem is, it can’t be disconnected and dissociated in this way.

            The violent overthrow of colonialism is the product of the colonial mastery itself, which the colonised peoples are bound by nature to see as attack and oppression … and hence by natural imperative to defend themselves against and shrug off …

            Otherwise, you may as well argue we’d have been better off allowing Japan to invade, occupy and rule us in 1942 …

            We won, they lost … that’s all. To believe we will always go on winning, and that there is no ‘karma’ or psychic restitution involved in the murder of 100 million native American people, or 60 million African slaves, or 10 million Congolese … et al ad infinitum … in the process of bringing them all our wonderful European “startling increases”, is to utterly delude ourselves …

            White Supremacy Rule made Zimbabwe a basket case …

            Even if without us they’d had despotic tribal warlordocracy, if supreme white people hadn’t been there to see, judge, deride and overthrow it – and replace it with our Wetiko Disease – we’d never have known, would we?

            • @PartisanZ – It’s a question of perspective, and to avoid anachronistic moralising, one needs to take a contemporary perspective. That is, that the unquestionable success of the Westphalian nation-state model can be transferred and applied to the primitive world. And successful it was for reasons stated earlier. But it was not ordinary people who were unhappy with colonial rule, it was the elite of powerful clans. Consider Sierra Leonean journalist Sorious Samura’s comment, “In Africa, corruption is so normal it’s expected as soon as you have a little power you use it to exploit those weaker than you.” Or Mo Ibrahim’s comment on the BB’s On Background of 31/10/16 that its problems are “presidents-for-life, terrorist groups, rentier economies and the resource curse.” Tribalism, endemic corruption and the complacency that arises from fertile land requiring little input or planning all contribute.

              These aren’t problems derived from colonialism. They are problems caused by its absence.

            • “BB’s” should have been “BBC’s”

            • “These aren’t problems derived from colonialism. They are problems caused by its absence.”

              You’ve certainly avoided anachronistic moralising there Kit. Presumably this is your vaunted contemporary perspective … ?

              ” … the unquestionable success of the Westphalian nation-state model” can certainly be forcefully and coercively “applied to the primitive world”.

              It was applied, and now we’re experiencing the fruits … the counter-balance … the inevitable reactions …

              Westphalia [Westphilia] can also create its very own primitive and horrific world, as we know. As the people eeking and clawing their survival among the ruins of blitzkried’ London, besieged Stalingrad, raised Berlin, firestormed Tokyo and vapourised Hiroshima discovered (and so myriad many other places), and as the citizens of Alleppo and ‘The Jungle’ et al ad infinitum are discovering now …

              ‘Enlarged tribalism’ posing as patriotism, along with endemic corruption, brutality and entitlement in the name of [so-called] democratic ‘nation states’ doesn’t make it any better than the localised and much more limited tribal or ‘folk’ version … Indeed, its industrialisation only raises the body count …

              Get real!

            • Reading between your lines there seems to be an underlying ideology closely akin to anarchism feeding your alienation. Given that the main options to replace secular representative democracy and the capitalist state these days are Marxist/anarchist revolution and Islam, this may be what you wish for. Certainly, the most likely explanation for the extreme Left’s support for Islam is this mutual goal. But it will leave a colossal fustercluck in its wake and the losers – as ever – will be ordinary people, with whom I identify. Vituperative invective seems as inadequate an answer for disaffection with the status quo as revolution and Islam. But if it makes you feel better . . .

  3. Corky

     /  4th December 2016

    How is a Rightie woman made? Easy, from an early age with plenty of fine American steel. This girl needn’t fear freeloading liberals attacking her for essentials when the worlds economy collapses. Neither will she fear her government and worry about being put in a concentration camp. That fate is for idiots who value computers above bullets.

  4. lurcher1948

     /  4th December 2016

    UP 844 better than a nasty comment or a kick in the head

  5. Missy

     /  4th December 2016

    Today is the day… Two major – and potentially EU changing – elections are being held.

    As mentioned yesterday, Italy are voting on political reforms, which on the face of it has nothing to do with the EU, but as Renzi has said he will resign if he loses this referendum has the potential to cause the EU some problems. It is thought that Renzi’s resignation will lead to early elections in Italy, and on present polling Renzi’s main opponent is likely to win. This opponent has promised to return to the Lira, which of course is the last thing the EU will want to have happen.

    In Austria the presidential election will take place, and the polls have it to close to call. There is a real chance that Norbert Hofer of the Freedom Party will win, giving the EU their first far right leader, and the first since the death of Franco. Despite how (in)accurate polling has been in other countries, there is reason to believe that Hofer has a real chance. In May during the Presidential election exit polls showed that Hofer had won, before counted results showed that he lost by 31,000 votes, however, the courts overturned the result and ordered the election be run again due to irregularities in counting of postal votes. This could have a serious impact on the EU, as Hofer has promised a referendum on Austria’s membership, and with increasing resentment of the EU on the continent the EU could find themselves in serious trouble if Austria votes to leave.

    On another note, earlier this week a journalist suggested that if some of the elections over the next 12 months goes against pro-EU candidates – specifically France and Germany – then there is a real possibility that the EU could have disintegrated before the UK’s leaving process is even completed. I personally don’t see that happening, but I think if Austria votes for Hofer the EU do need to look at their long-term goals and their current policies. The EU also need to get rid of those in favour of greater integration from positions of power, and do a re-set, pulling back on a lot of the policies they have already in place. The way to save the EU is to loosen the reins (so to speak) not tighten them as Juncker, Merkel, and others have pushed since the Brexit vote.

    • Gezza

       /  4th December 2016

      The problem is they have never developed a common language. Who knows, the whole situation with the EU could’ve been completely different if they had proceeded with this proposal.

      “The European Commission has announced a proposal whereby English will be the official language of the EU, rather than German, which was the other contender. Her Majesty’s Government conceded that English spelling had room for improvement and is considering accepting a five-year phasing in of ‘Euro-English’.

      In the first year, “s” will replace the soft “c”. Sertainly, this will make sivil servants jump for joy. The hard “c” will be dropped in favour of the “k”, Which should klear up some konfusion and allow one key less on keyboards.

      There is expected to be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome “ph” will be replaced with “f”, making words like “fotograf” 20% shorter.

      In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent “e” is disgrasful.

      By the fourth yer, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing “th” with “z” and “w” with “v”.

      During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary “o” kan be dropd from vords kontaining “ou” and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and everivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer. ZE DREM VIL FINALI COM TRU!”

      Shame it never went ahead. It had some promise I thought. Still, water under the bridge now. There might still be scope for a Euro-French-Polish language I suppose. Clearing up the Poles’ spelling into something intelligible should certainly be attempted in my view.

  6. Missy

     /  4th December 2016

    In the DM this morning is a report, on a report from the Sunday Times, on a report for Government (not just NZ media who plagiarise stories from other outlets), which reportedly says that Muslim enclaves are so cut off from the rest of the UK they have a distorted view of the reality in the country.

    This report says in some areas where Muslims are the majority many believe that Britain is predominantly Islamic. It is reported that this report to the Government criticises the Government for failing to do enough on integration, and some institutions for being so politically correct that they are aiding the cause of the far right. There are also allegations that the Home Office delayed the report because of how critical it was.

    The media have focussed on a small part of the report, and it will be interesting to read the report as a whole, but I think that finally those in power are starting to realise what many living in these communities recognise – much of the UK’s Muslim population live in enclaves cut off from the rest of Britain with no desire to integrate into British society as a whole.

    There are lessons for NZ to work at integrating new immigrants – especially those from a background where women are second class citizens, and they don’t allow freedom of speech, (even if it offends).

    • Grist for my ‘vicinal arrogation’ mill and a useful addition. Trevor Phillips said much the same thing, admitting he “got almost everything wrong” on Muslim immigration in a damning new (as of April 2016) report on integration, segregation, and how the followers of Islam are creating “nations within nations” in the West. New data shows “a chasm” opening between Muslims and non-Muslims on fundamental issues such as marriage, relations between men and women, schooling, freedom of expression and even the validity of violence in defence of religion.

    • Gezza

       /  4th December 2016

      The adonis from the East End in the embedded video clip is obviously not the sharpest knife in the block … 😳

  7. Gezza

     /  4th December 2016

    Another early Stones blues number for you patu.


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