Background to the Israel-Palestine conflict

Gezza says:

There so many versions of the history of the modern state of Israel and the Palestinian conflict biased to one side’s viewpoint or the other. This is best, neutral, five-minute summary of the history of the Palestinian-Jewish conflict I have seen, published Jan 2016.

Well worth a look imo

Worth a look in my opinion too for a simple summary of the background to the current Israel-Palestine conflict.

It looks like a good explanation to me of the problems in Israel and the Palestinian territories.

It’s easy to have empathy for both sides, and also to condemn some of the actions of both sides. Finding solutions that will end the conflict is an ongoing challenge.

 

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39 Comments

  1. Klik Bate

     /  December 30, 2016

    Those poor Muslims! That little red dot is causing all their problems – 2 BILLION Muslims subdued by 6 million Jews.

    • Blazer

       /  December 30, 2016

      bit like a fish…out of…water,you…think.

    • Dodgy map there KB – Ethiopia is 60% plus Christian…

      • Klik Bate

         /  December 30, 2016

        Nothing ‘dodgy’ about it dave – the 2 billion figure has taken all that into account.

    • That means little.

      A comprehensive 2009 demographic study of 232 countries and territories reported that 23% of the global population, or 1.57 billion people, are Muslims.

      Approximately 62% of the world’s Muslims live in Asia, with over 683 million adherents in Indonesia, Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh.

      There are estimates of 20-65 million Muslims in China.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Demographics

      Here’s a better distribution map:

      And I don’t know of any evidence that the majority of those have much if any interest in Israel, nor Israel in them.

    • Ethiopia is not Muslim, nor is South Nigeria, Kenya, Ghana, Cote D’Ivoire, or many other of the countries in green on there.

  2. Conspiratoor

     /  December 30, 2016

    There would be peace tomorrow if the Palestinians wanted it

    • More money in pretending to be a victim.

      • Blazer

         /  December 30, 2016

        you referring to the Jews,holocaust,anti semitism,narrative?

    • Gezza

       /  December 30, 2016

      There would have to be something like this for that to happen, I think, c:

      1. A modified version of the UN partition plan for separate states for Israel & Palestine is agreed, roughly 50% of the total current area each, as before – with the state of Palestine being contiguous territory, not separated at any point by a part of Israel, and Jerusalem being subject to some form of tripartite control, or independent governance, or something.
      2. The capital of the modern state of Israel should not be Jerusalem.
      3. A complete renunciation of violence by all Palestinian poltitical representative & militant groups, including the PLO & Hamas, and acceptance of the right of Israel to exist in peace & security.
      4. A complete acceptance by all Israeli political representative groups & militant Zionist groups, including settlers in the occupied territories of the right of the State of Palestine to exist in peace & security.
      5. Right of return – to the new state of Palestine only – granted to all Palestinian refugees & their descendents who wish to return. (This is how Israel’s Jewish population has been grown.)
      6. ALL Arab states recognise new states of both Palestine & Israel.
      7. ALL Arab states grant citizenship to Palestinians who wish to remain living where they are & become that coutry’s citizens instead.
      8. Compensation be negotiated & paid to Palestinian refugees who lost their lands & homes in past expulsions & flights. International aid could part-fund if necessary.
      9. Any Israeli settlements in currently occupied territories in the new state of Palestine to be abandoned, not destroyed & new settlements constructed for them in the new state of Israel.

      I don’t think less than this will work, tbh.

      • Conspiratoor

         /  December 30, 2016

        Food for thought G, east jerusalem is a thorny one and expecting all other arab states to recognise palestine might be a bridge too far. Incidentally the Israelis have a record of stitching enduring peace agreements together with Egypt and Jordan, not so with the palestinian arabs. Cheers,c

        • Gezza

           /  December 30, 2016

          The agreements with Egypt & Jordan I think fundamentally got them their own lost land back after the 1967 war, they guaranteed they wouldn’t try to grab it again, and Israel guaranteed their borders.

          Yes you’re right about East Jerusalem, and the difficulty of getting all Arab states to sign up to this, but even if most did, plus Israel, it’s a done deal. And if the Palestinians have beforehand accepted that 2 state solution & renounced & arrested or expelled the militants seeking the destruction of Israel, that isolates any remaining state still seeking the destruction of Israel & should ensure wider international support for its right to exist & defend itself than it gets now. Whatever borders it has there is no way I can see that Israel will ever allow itself to be defeated again, and I don’t think the West would allow it either.

          But I fully realise a mutitude of better minds than mine have been wrestling with this thorny problem since 1947 without success & that fundamentalist Islam AND fundamentalist Judaism/Zionism complicate matters.

          I just think that I my points above are probably the most crucial to getting any Palestinian agreement to renounce violence. Especially a guarantee of a true contiguous Palestinian state, and pretty much immediate moves to create it – within a short time frame of a couple of years, for example. Until that happens, extremists like those in Hamas will continue to influence Palestinians – who have no future beyond ghettoed occupation, blockade, harrassment, humiliation, massive reprisal killings by Israel, and the continued growing racism & vengeful hatred of both sides.

          I admit I’m not hopeful.

      • A comprehensive plan Gezza. But point 3 and point 4 are just never going to happen. So the whole thing collapses.

        The extreme zionist element and the extreme muslim element do not want peace. For many on both sides, the fight for dominance one against the other is all the have. Rabid dogs fighting over the Abrahamic bone that is Jerusalem.

        Yitzak Rabin had the Israelis on a course for a settlement and he was assassinated. Yasser Arafat gave the semblance of wanting a negotiated peace – and the extremists used that as a way to take over Gaza…

        This will fester and boil for years, decades before something amjor happens to break the circuit. Can’t see it in my lifetime

        • Gezza

           /  December 30, 2016

          I don’t believe the great majority of Palestinians support the rocket attacks & desperationrevenge//suicide terrorism against Israelis that brings such massive retaliation down on their heads.

          The complete lack of any concrete commitment & moves by Israel to achieve points 4 & 5 at, and after, the Oslo accords, following the first intifada, the corruption & ineffectiveness of the PLO & Palestinian Authority, and now the Israeli occupations and settlements, are what has driven more & more trapped Palestinians into Hamas’s & other religious extremists’ arms. Which, in turn, has fuelled & driven the jewish/zionist extremist agenda & prevents the achievement of point 3 – as they clearly intend.

          That video suggests that most Israelis are not actually personally affected by the conflict these days, that is a problem intself.

          I’m not sure whether the Palestinians also still insist Jerusalem must be their capital too, but that should also not be allowed. It’s Islam’s 3rd holiest City, but Christianity’s and Judaism’s first holiest city, but the Pope resides in Vatican City in Rome. What is notable in the history of Palestine under the Ottomans in that video clip is that all 3 religions treated it as a Holy City & lived there in comparative harmony.

          • ” don’t believe the great majority of Palestinians support the rocket attacks & desperation revenge//suicide terrorism” then they need to find the will and courage to oppose extremism in their own areas. Which is easier said than done…..

            Palestinians have their fate in their own hands… but they are following extremists and so they will never have peace..

            • Gezza

               /  December 30, 2016

              The massive Israeli retaliations and daily harrassments & provocations fuel it dave. But yes, a unilateral declaration of a truce, announced as in support of genuine negotiations to get their state & refugee right of return, enforced by their own people in the palestinian territories, would be the best way to demonstrate they are reasonable, & get international support. They have tried this, mind you, but couldn’t stop some extremists from continuing attacks, and provoking Israeli attacks in return. Israel has to exercise restraint too, and so far, they haven’t. Just doubletalk.

            • Israel practices a lot of restraint Gezza.

              Yes there is all the low level bs that always happens in these situations… but the car rammings, random stabbings etc mean every Palenstine inside Israel is suspect as far as israeli security services are concerned.

              Consider this. Israel could just close the borders with Gaza, fire any and all Gazans from jobs in Israel and stop all inbound trade via sea and the israeli land border.

              Gaza would then be back in its natural state since way back – in Egypts sphere of influence. All trade and travel in Gaza could flow through the Egyptian border.

              But Israel exercises some humanity and allows trade and the flow of people….

              Is the whole situation crap. Yes 100%.

              But I would have a whole lot more sympathy for the Palestinian position if they ceased the cycle of rocket attacks, pause & restock and then more rocket attacks. It only punishes their own people.

              A peaceful Palestinian territories in Gaza and the West Bank would be the biggest weapon the palestinian people could weild.. in my view…

            • Gezza

               /  December 30, 2016

              “Gaza would then be back in its natural state since way back – in Egypts sphere of influence. All trade and travel in Gaza could flow through the Egyptian border.”

              The history of both Jewish and Palestinian Arab nationalism & claim/right to an independent state has to be as it was at the UN partition at 1947. The ancient claims of both are disputable and neither who relies on ancient history has proven any greater claim than the other. It has been occupied and then arab & muslim land for much longer than it was ever the state of Israel & then Israel/Judah.

              I don’t think it’s realistic for anyone to expect the Palestinians to tell Hamas we won’t support your attacks on Israel until they get a clear statement from Israel “if you stop the attacks we will agree to enter genuine negotiations to set up an agreed palestinian state of at least equal area to the 1947 partition, and allow those who fled or were expelled to return to the Palestinian state”. They have never said that.

          • Brown

             /  December 31, 2016

            Jerusalem is interesting to Christianity for historical reasons but is not holy in the way it is to Jews. I’d like to visit the “Holy Land” for the same reasons I like visiting old battlefields and ancient ruins but Christianity is not built of bricks and mortar and needs no historical anchor beyond Jesus of Nazareth. Its all about the man, not the place.

            There is no solution to a problem when the fight is largely religious and one wants to conquer the world politically and the other sees gentiles theologically as slaves to serve Judaism because the Jews are supposedly God’s favorite.

      • Kevin

         /  December 30, 2016

        Even simpler. Complete and unconditional surrender by the Palestinians.

    • Palestinians are opposed to peace negotiations as they believe that they are entitled to their land which I totally agree with. Why settle when u can try and regain what was yours in the first place? I think that giving in and succumbing to the so called peace negotiations is too easy after decades of declared war.

  3. Gezza, Jerusalem must be Israel’s capital, by historical right and fruits of conquest. I see no hope for a solution if this is denied. Quid pro quo should also apply to surrendered land and settlements to avoid acts like when Jordan left Jerusalem and applied a near scorched earth policy. Jerusalem could be administered by the UN to guarantee access to religious sites to all religions and Muslims.

    • Gezza

       /  December 30, 2016

      I disagree about Jerusalem having to be the capital of the new state of israel. It’s claim to this is religious rather than historically justified. Biblical Israel as an independent state, and then the separate kingdoms of Israel & Judah, jointly existed for only 300 – 400 years, 1400 years ago. It is a Holy City to 3 religions. UN administration might be a good idea.

      There are other countries whose oldest or most historically important cities are not their capital, including ours, and Australia.

      UN administration might be a good idea, but I’d hope they could be a bloody small administration – you know what that organisation’s like with bureaucracy.

      • Jerusalem as an Independent, UN run city sounds a great idea – except the UN is not unbiased in the way it operates….

    • Klik Bate

       /  December 30, 2016

      XD

      • Conspiratoor

         /  December 30, 2016

        I hung in there long enough to learn that Nigeria and Mauritania, both bastions of human rights, are co-sponsors of the resolution. What an absolute farce the UN and its disgraceful ‘human rights subcommittee’ has become. I hope Trump comes good and pulls the plug on american funding, at which point the thing will fold

        “The Human Rights Watch’s 2015 World Report states that intensified violence by Boko Haram, restrictions of LGBT rights, and government corruption continue to undermine the status of human rights in Nigeria”

        “Amnesty International also has accused the Mauritanian government of an institutionalized and continuous use of torture for decades”

  4. Blazer

     /  December 30, 2016

    the authority on this subject seems to be Norman Finklestein who has impeccable credentials .

  5. Blazer, it is actually Norman G. Finkelstein who is the compiler of the Palestine Archive etc.

    • Blazer

       /  December 30, 2016

      your spelling is correct.The Zionists don’t like him…at all.

  6. lucher1948

     /  December 30, 2016

    BLAZER the JEWS will win and the ragheads WILL lose,as there’s a new sheriff in town SOON…. TRUMP and he don’t like ragheads
    so why you wait for the changeover…sob tosser
    1iwC2QljLn4

    • Conspiratoor

       /  December 30, 2016

      lurch you appear to be warming to the orange freak. Am I correct in this assumption or are you a tad discombobulated? Cheers,c

  7. Renounce

  8. Retaliate