Take Waitangi Day on tour?

While many people attending Waitangi Day celebrations think it is a great occasion much of the country sees it as a media circus giving a few Ngāpuhi activists some attention at the cost of political and national inclusiveness.

David Seymour has suggested a solution to the ongoing antics at Waitangi Day – move the celebrations around the country.

PM should take Waitangi Day ceremonies on tour

Te Tii Marae’s continued failure to respectfully host the Government on Waitangi Day should prompt the Prime Minister to visit a different marae each year, says ACT Leader David Seymour.

“The behaviour of a small group of perpetually-grumpy activists has turned Waitangi Day into an annual political circus, denying Kiwis a national day we can all enjoy,” says Mr Seymour.

“It’s never been clear why one iwi gets to monopolise the celebrations. The Treaty wasn’t just signed at Waitangi, it went on tour and was signed by chiefs all over the country.

“If an iwi is going to host representatives of the Crown to symbolise this 177-year-old relationship, why not rotate the host iwi and location? It could be in a different place each year, perhaps following the path that the Treaty took during 1840.

“Ngāpuhi activists have denied the whole country a proud national day a few times too many. Let’s take this show on the road. There were 20-odd signing locations so it’ll return to Te Tii Marae in around 2037.

“A bit of competition among locations might help to lift standards of behaviour, bringing some dignity and joy back to this special day.”

Today’s ODT editorial thinks that this has merit – from The importance of Waitangi Day:

Act New Zealand leader David Seymour suggested the continued failure by Ti Tii to respectfully host the Government on Waitangi Day should prompt the prime minister of the day to visit a different marae each year.

It has never been clear why one iwi – Ngapuhi – gets to monopolise the celebrations.

And that hasn’t been working out very well – it seems to have become more about them and less about the country.

The Treaty was not signed just at Waitangi; it went on tour and was signed by chiefs throughout the country. He suggests the celebration of the Treaty signing could follow the path the Treaty took in 1840.

Waitangi Day is quickly slipping from relevancy for many New Zealanders who are just looking forward to a day of holiday when, in fact, the Treaty is considered New Zealand’s founding document.

Those who attend the Waitangi Day events often say it is overall a very good occasion, if you ignore a few attention seekers and media obsessions and distractions.

But currently for me and I think for many others Waitangi Day is a contentious circus hijacked by a few activists.

If it was celebrated in different places more it may become a country focussed occasion rather than a local leer up.

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147 Comments

  1. Kitty Catkin

     /  January 10, 2017

    What a good idea. I am tired of a few people hogging it.

  2. PDB

     /  January 10, 2017

    Here, fixed it;

    “Waitangi Day is quickly slipping from relevancy for many New Zealanders who are just looking forward to a day of holiday when, in fact, the Treaty is considered New Zealand’s CONFOUNDING document”

  3. NOEL

     /  January 10, 2017

    Would that include Tuhoe?

  4. Gezza

     /  January 10, 2017

    How will they get on down South where the land was simply claimed for Kuinin Wikitki by right of discovery ?

    • Gezza

       /  January 10, 2017

      Kuini Wikitiki. (Right! Auto-correct has had it’s chance! It’s fired!)

  5. Gezza

     /  January 10, 2017

    “But currently for me and I think for many others Waitangi Day is a contentious circus hijacked by a few activists”

    The pakeha political parties should stop being so activist about it & respect the Tikanga. NOEL raises a very good point above.

  6. Klik Bate

     /  January 10, 2017

    Maybe we could make it like ‘Top Town’ ❓

  7. The tikanga is being disrespected when the Prime Minister of this country is being treated as manuhiri by Ngapuhi. He is the leader of this country by democratic election, and should be treated as such by Ngapuhi.

    • Gezza

       /  January 10, 2017

      Rubbish.

      • Why is it rubbish? Just because he is not Maori, he has no presence (mana) on the paepae? Learn your own tikanga before rubbishing genuinely held opinions.

        • Gezza

           /  January 10, 2017

          It was all explained yesterday. I cannot assist you further if you remain impervious to it.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  January 10, 2017

        He is being disrespected and consequently most NZers also feel insulted. Tikanga is irrelevant when bad manners rule.

    • Blazer

       /  January 10, 2017

      as you know ,he is a mere list M.P who inherited the leadership.

  8. Doesn’t this idea present both historical significance and chronological questions?

    – Commemoration of subsequent signings already happens in various places, e.g, the single largest signing at Mangungu in Hokianga on Feb 12th each year. Shouldn’t such celebrations (and holidays) be held on their appropriate day? An annual ‘moveable’ holiday perhaps …?

    – Compare our Treaty commemorations with American Independence Day celebrations and one can immediately see the inherent racism in our situation. [Not to say there isn’t any in theirs]

    The United States is likewise founded by Treaty with indigenous peoples – in their case a raft of broken Treaties with Native Americans – which they celebrate not at all (as far as I can discern)! ‘Thanksgiving’ hardly counts since I believe it pre-empts any Treaties. It’s simply the Puritan colonists’ assumption of some kind of right to occupy …

    However, the fireworks REALLY come out to celebrate ‘Independence Day’, when some European colonisers’ had a ‘War of Independence’ from other European colonisers. The Yanks don’t let anything disrupt their ‘patriot day’!

    Pakeha ‘New Zealanders’ wouldn’t either, and would celebrate Te Tiriti along with Maori at Waitangi – as indeed some do – if they were genuinely proud of their nation’s heritage and ‘patriotic’ about it.

    Instead we save our ‘patriotism’ for April 25 to commemorate when we colonisers joined with other colonisers to either invade yet another indigenous peoples’ homeland – Turkey – or just fight other colonisers in the trenches of Western Europe for world-wide colonial superiority.

    Viewed in this way the avoidance of Waitangi looks like nothing short of narcissistic, bigoted cowardice …

    – Then the thorny issue of those iwi who didn’t sign Te Tiriti at all …?

    • PDB

       /  January 10, 2017

      PZ: “Instead we save our ‘patriotism’ for April 25 to commemorate when we colonisers joined with other colonisers to either invade yet another indigenous peoples’ homeland – Turkey – or just fight other colonisers in the trenches of Western Europe for world-wide colonial superiority”.

      From your prospective speaking German or Japanese may have been a better option than the gibberish you currently speak. Related to Neville Chamberlain by any chance?

      • Pathetic PDB. If Germany or Japan had occupied New Zealand we’d all have become either collaborators or partisans … [and perhaps a few peace-makers like Chamberlain]

        Instead we’ve been ‘occupied’ by globalisation and free-market, capitalist neoliberalism with exactly the same outcome …

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  January 10, 2017

      I didn’t sign the treaty, PZ.

      • You confirm my theory that the noble social science of History has become nothing more than ‘cultural narcissism’ …

        I’d have rescinded my vote for Labour in 1984 as soon as Roger answered his pre-arranged call from Treasury if I could Alan, and I’ve never once voted National …

        We sometimes have to live with these things … you know …

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  January 10, 2017

          Just arranging the thorny issues in a neat line for you, PZ.

  9. Blazer

     /  January 10, 2017

    feeble argument ….go to Germany or Japan and tell me what language they…speak.Neville Chamberlain tried to keep the peace.Machinations were already in place for the warmongers to take over and declare war.

    • PDB

       /  January 10, 2017

      Neville Chamberlain was a weak gullible fool – no wonder you support Labour/Greens as their leaders share similar aspirations.

      • Blazer

         /  January 10, 2017

        did you learn that off by heart did you?He was P.M of the U.K,so he must have had some intelligence.Chamberlain declared war on Germany ,bone up on facts.

        • PDB

           /  January 10, 2017

          “Chamberlain declared war on Germany,bone up on facts.”

          A bit late then old chum considering he had already gifted Hitler the Sudetenland, selling out the Czechs in the process & giving the German military precious time. Reading history isn’t your strong point obviously & from your posting history facts ain’t either.

          Learn up:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

          • Blazer

             /  January 10, 2017

            How did he”gift” territory that did not belong to him….Bonehead?

            • PDB

               /  January 10, 2017

              You’re an idiot, Chamberlain played a huge part in getting the Munich agreement signed after promising the Czechs and everybody else that Hitler would take that and be happy with his lot – bad mistake.

              By chance are you only primary school age? How’s the mortgage going?

            • Blazer

               /  January 10, 2017

              Germany was making reclaiming land confiscated after ww1 Einstein.

            • Are “bonehead” and “Einstein” acceptable ad hominem epithets ?

              It seems to me there is some deterioration in this blog of recent times and I find the name calling and personal attacks dull and counter productive.

            • “I find the name calling and personal attacks dull and counter productive.”

              I agree. Most here know better but some succumb to name calling. I haven’t had a lot of time to monitor conversations but if it doesn’t improve may start to do something about it.

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              traveller: Good, stop the radical rubbish by the blog separatists. It’s destroying the Nation just as you have found it destroying this forum. Welcome to reality mate. By the way check what is written especially in my case – there is no name calling.
              Tidy up the antisocial radical behaviour which the majority of NZlanders find offensive, hence why our Prime Minister refuses to give credence to people like PartisanZ who are very close to the legal line.

            • @ Tracey – No name calling only veiled threats …

              What on earth is “the legal line”?

              Seriously mate, you should complain to the appropriate authorities if you really feel this way about me Timo.

              A good place to start might be [to not get into comments like that – PG]

          • Indeed PDB – Sudetenland was not part of Imperial Germany, instead was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire before WWI kicked off. It was ethnically Germany but not part of the Prussian lead German Empire. The brits sold the Czechoslovaks down the river at Munich – annexing Sudetenland left the rest of the then Czechoslovakia wide ope to Germany invasion which happened in short order…

            Chamberlain was a fool who only redeemed himself by actually holding true to the guarantee of Polish sovereignty and declaring war on Germany.

            • Blazer

               /  January 11, 2017

              Dave I say Dave, what claim did the U.K have on the territory you mentioned? Empire!

        • Conspiratoor

           /  January 10, 2017

  10. I find this explanation to be authoritative about the tikanga, it was published during the debate about women’s speaking rights in a Marae. It does , however make the point that tkanga allows any person the right to speak on a Marae, with restrictions only during the welcoming ceremony.
    “Under Māori tikanga, women are not banned from speaking on the marae.

    Exactly what you mean when you say marae is possibly an issue here but I will take it that you mean the wharenui (‘meeting house’) itself or the marae ātea (the area in front of the wharenui where the whai kōrero happens in most areas). The term marae can and often does refer to the whole complex but I’m assuming that you don’t think that women are banned from speaking at all, anywhere on the marae complex.

    On most (but by no means all) marae, women do not perform the whai kōrero (formal speeches) within the ceremony of the pōwhiri (ritual welcome). During a pōwhiri the whai kōrero is done either on the marae ātea or inside the wharenui. When there is no pōwhiri in progress, there is no restriction on who may speak on the marae in these areas. (That is to say, no default restriction, depending on what is happening there may be restrictions on who may speak based on a range of issues such as, specific expertise or professional role.)

    Within the ceremony of the pōwhiri the role that is performed almost exclusively by women is the karanga. This is the call between the tangata whenua (hosts) and the manuhiri (guests). If there is no body who can perform the karanga the pōwhiri cannot go ahead. It is a crucial element of the ritual. In modern times the karanga is usually quite short but it is entirely possible for the karanga to be as long and have as much linguistic content as the whai kōrero. In addition to the karanga, women may interject to show support or disagreement during the whai kōrero of their speaker. They may also cut the speaker off entirely if they wish make a strong statement that they do not support the speech.

    The way these customs are practiced varies from marae to marae.
    Whether of not the customs of the pōwhiri are discriminatory or sexist is a complicated discussion and as you say, one to be had within Māoridom, not ‘about’ Māoridom.

    However, stating that women are prohibited from speaking on the marare is incorrect and I speculate that this statement is likely to have offended and disappointed some people. Misconceptions like this one can make it difficult for some Māori women to engage with what as seen as the Pākehā feminist dialogue.

    ********************

    Thank you, He Uri o Nanakia, for your comment, and for the time you took to explain the matter to me.”

    Raina Ferris also a teacher of karanga says this as well:
    .
    The pohiri process was a strategically well balanced set of activities that is designed to achieve kotahitanga (unity) by bringing manuhiri and tangata whenua together and bringing the living and spiritual worlds together, Ms Ferris said.’

    To deny a person (Prime Minister)speaking rights denies the purpose of ktahitanga and is an insult to the mana of the Prime Minister – or is it only Maori who possess mana?

  11. Gezza

     /  January 10, 2017

    “The way these customs are practiced varies from marae to marae.
    Whether of not the customs of the pōwhiri are discriminatory or sexist is a complicated discussion and as you say, one to be had within Māoridom, not ‘about’ Māoridom.”

  12. Blazer

     /  January 10, 2017

    we have already established he has not been denied the right to talk.

  13. J Bloggs

     /  January 10, 2017

    Cynic that I am, I don’t beleive taking Waitangi Day on tour would make one jot of difference. Those that want to make trouble will just follow the circus around the country to get their yearly 30 seconds of media spotlight

  14. duperez

     /  January 10, 2017

    English has had a very short time in the job and too little natural instinct to be a breath of fresh air, to do something inspirational, to bring a light of real leadership.

    He has resorted to type and a stamped his mark as “same old same old”. The fresh way of looking at things is like a Christchurch person looking at the West Coast – the hills are always in the way. English looked to Waitangi and all he saw were the Farrar Alps.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  January 10, 2017

      The hills are in the way of looking to Lyttleton. The mountains are in the way of looking to the West Coast.

      • PDB

         /  January 10, 2017

        I’m afraid the padded room duperez inhabits has no windows and hence the walls block out any views at all.

        • duperez

           /  January 11, 2017

          I observe the tone of posts in various blogs and they all certainly have their flavour. This one is pretty calm and rational while others, like the pubs the scruffy Mongrel Mob member types gather at, are different. My comment drew downticks and a comment perfectly fitting the atmosphere of that other gang, the Kiwiblog Klan.

          The analogy though is perfect. My hope with any leader is that they have vision, are creative, entrepreneurial, see things in new ways to challenge and harness their flock, get the best out of them and being part of a foundation for them to have hope and aspirations. And are brave.

          Being accused of being in a room, (padded at that,) with no view and vision, for thinking like that is funny, but that happens. A blind person outside a room complaining about those inside not seeing has some nice connotations.

          Including that simply being outside the room doesn’t mean one gets it.

      • Blazer

         /  January 10, 2017

        The fact that Latvia,Finland and Estonia are between Sweden and Russia doesn’t stop some people from seeing what they want to see.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  January 12, 2017

          Look again, B. There is nothing between Stockholm and St Petersburg but sea.

  15. Bob

     /  January 10, 2017

    I dont particularly care why he is not going, nor in the hand wringing analysis of the letters and what they contain, am glad he is not. Waitangi day is not a day that inspires at all, it’s just a day off for me. Over many years it has deteriated into who can be the most outrageous from all sides and get the most seconds on the six o’clock news, the media’s slavish over hyping of anything and everything is equally pathetic.

    The real issues and their resolution shouldn’t be affected one iota by what Waitangi day has become and who yells at who or throws what. I’d rather all official events were cancelled, individual celebrations by those who want to and everyone else can do what I do, enjoy a day off with the family.

  16. In a nutshell, no Independence Day for us because we’re not independent, we’re co-dependent!

    If Waitangi has deteriorated its largely because of the News media’s targeting to grab the most minutes of controversy, fear-mongering and polarisation …

    The essential ingredient of News ‘drama’ is conflict …

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  January 10, 2017

      No. The Ngapuhi kaumatua are quite capable of making relationships deteriorate without any help from the news media. As the letters this year show.

      • Historic evidence Alan! Albeit very recent ….

        On 21 May 1840, Hobson proclaimed sovereignty over the North Island on the basis of the Treaty … But he did not wait for the return of his emmissaries with signatures collected in the South. Instead, he proclaimed sovereignty over the South Island on the basis that it was Terra Nullius, thereby ignoring the existence of the Ngai Tahu. Only the arrogance born of metropolitan society and the colonising ethos of the British Empire was capable of such self-deception … But even greater deceptions lay ahead over the next 150 years.” (Ranganui Walker)

        There’s historic evidence for all of it …

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  January 10, 2017

          You would have preferred the French to annex the South Island? Te Rauparaha had done his best to make it Terra Nullius. That was a different level of arrogance entirely.

          • Te Rauparaha did make Wellington a tangata whenua free zone with help of Ngati Mutanga and Ngati Tama. Given the lack of tenure Te Atiawa had in the Wellington region before the British ships turned up in 1840 its hard to understand why the Wellingotn branch of Te Atiawa are entitled to any ToW payments. They couldn’t even stand up to Waikato, bar a few small groups and brave rangatira to hold there own rohe on the North taranaki coast but instead abused the tribes of the Horowhenua and Wellington instead…

            • Te Rauparaha’s is a long and complicated story, which must be understood in both cultural and historical context. He bridged the pre-European and post-European eras – hapu iwi and ‘Maori’ – the first in which warfare was quite a different thing than in the second …

              Born around 1760, “he rose to the leadership of Ngati Toa because of his aggressive defence of his tribe’s interests and his skill in battle … From the late eighteenth century Ngati Toa and related tribes, including Ngati Raukawa, were constantly at war with the Waikato tribes for control of the rich fertile land north of Kawhia.”

              This ‘war’ was limited hand-to-hand combat with probably “quite low casualties” … (te ara) …

              “Between 1810 and 1815 Te Rauparaha was with Ngati Maru in the Hauraki Gulf and was given his first musket … In 1819 Te Rauparaha joined a large northern war party, armed with muskets, led by Tuwhare, Patuone and Nene … Whalers and other European ships had been trading at Kapiti since 1827. Te Rauparaha’s power over his allied tribes rested on his control of the trade in arms and ammunition …”

              Later, “Te Rauparaha returned to Kapiti. In 1830 the attack on Ngai Tahu was resumed. Captain John Stewart took about 100 Ngati Toa warriors to Akaroa, hidden in the brig Elizabeth. He lured Ngai Tahu chief Tama-i-hara-nui aboard by offering to trade for muskets. Tama-i-hara-nui was taken, together with his wife and daughter, tortured and put to death at Kapiti. On the ship, he strangled his daughter to prevent her from being enslaved.”

              Look at that eh! DIRECT Pakeha complicity in the so-called ‘Musket Wars’, which can actually only be called Musket Wars because of direct Pakeha complicity in the musket trade …

            • Gee look at that some nice selective bits lift out of history by Parti to blame Europeans….. good work Parti! I think you find a bit more detail about Ngai Tahu Ariki kidnapping and murder which shows a lot less European comlpicity and lot more Maori stand over if you dig a little deeper Parti.

              And I note you didn’t address the key thing I posted namely the genocidal sweep of Te Rauparaha and his allies through the Horowhenua and Wellingotn. Pumkin feast anyone?

              All good Parti – I know where you stand, leaning ever so slightly to the far Left …

            • Salem ‘Witch Hunt’ anyone ….!?

              Just matching and balancing your own ‘Stone Age Culture’ selective, derisive and imbalanced hogwash dave … “tangata whenua free zone” …

              You wish eh!?

              Multiple Stone Age Culture ‘host’ polities, their boundaries and affiliations long defined by ‘skirmish’, utu and whakapapa, with muskets supplied by their single Iron Age polity visitors …

              I can’t address every one of your over-exaggerated “key things” dave.

              People are arguing elsewhere about origins and use of the word “holocaust” coming long after WW2. Do you think “genocidal sweep” is really accurate of 1820s hapu iwi warfare in Aotearoa and Te Wai Pounamu?

              Even if it is – which is a long, long bow to draw – it was only “genocidal” directly and unequivocally because of muskets supplied by Europeans.

            • Yes its accurate – name the original tribes of Wellington Parti… and Mutanga and Tama carried on to the Chathams and wiped out that specific culture as well….

              Keep going Parti I’m enjoying your response as always….. can almost see the fury in the keyboard strokes…

            • When one assumes things about another dave, one is very often actually describing one’s self …. [and yes, I do it too sometimes] …

              Fury … No …. Pity … Yes.

            • hahahahahahahahahaha your priceless… all that learning and no sense… brilliant.

            • dave, it beats all your brilliance and no learning … nonsense …

            • keep going Parti – you may actual land a hit. At the moment that’s a missing and my fleet is fully intact…. B4, C5, G3 ; )

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              I think his response is what Pete George is meaning regards name calling ‘the mental health visit to my nearest hospital’
              Some emotional intelligence needed here.
              Continual radical comments will wind up most NZlanders when relating to Waitangi Claims and I can assure you that no multi generational NZ family will be sensored over this issue when there are offensive racially loaded comments being made. If they want a fight they will get one.

            • I’ll settle for any intelligence at all on your part Timmy …

              dave, I guess you think you’ve scored hits aplenty and you’re winning?

              Sorry to disappoint you, and I don’t even have a fleet! I’ve just got one fast and maneuverable research vessel disguised as a torpedo gunboat with a helicopter on it … a sort of PT109 “Calypso” …

              The English and Europeans went all over the world dave and wiped out innumerable “specific cultures” …

              New Zealand is partially a guilty expression of not wanting to do that all over again, but still wanting to reap all the advantages of colonisation, almost as if they had done it anyway …

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              PartisanZ so if these evil English and Europeans were so bad, why did your grandmother breed with them and ultimately produce you??
              Aren’t you part of that evil race and hence can’t be part of the grievance industry in NZ. You may have to give yourself an uppercut for past wrongs 😂

            • Oh please Parti… your self loathing is just pitiful..”the English and the Europeans” are the big bad nasty wolves.

              Like the Chinese aren’t doing it right now in Tibet…. like the Japanese didn’t colonise Korea…. Like the Ancient Kingdoms of Mali and Benin didn’t seek empire and to impose their will… like the Arabs and the Turks didn’t wipe out or subujgate and hold down other cultures all across the Middle East and north Africa… like the Mongols didn’t terrify the Eurasian land mass creating a vast Empire that destroy many flourishing cultures and propagate a violent colonial intrusion that causes problems in India to this day -see the Mughals and their legacy…. And on goes the list .

              Truly I couldn’t care less if I have “scored a hit” on you – its just a little fun to feed you a line and watch run around like a chicken minus a head.

              I just stand back and watch you self loathing and lack of historical perspective in something approaching astonishment. The USSR’s useful idiot strategy has work a treat in your case…

              Have a great weekend Parti – the weather has improved markedly in Wellington promising a much nicer weekend then many in the last month or so …

            • Tracy

               /  January 13, 2017

              😁 Stop pointing out reality Dave!!
              This world cant handle it!!
              Little lone the ‘Radical Bro’ brigade !

          • @ Alan – “You would have preferred the French to annex the South Island?”

            I’m glad they didn’t Alan, but not for the same reasons you are I suspect.

            Given both the size and ‘private colonisation’ nature (a la Wakefield’s NZ Company) of the initial French expedition I doubt pre-empting French annexation was a big concern of Te Tiriti?

            http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/french/page-2

            ‘What If’ French annexation might have created an interesting “bicultural” nation like Canada’s? The North Island and Le Continentale? Two European coloniser cultures in partnership, swindling, disregarding and/or oppressing the indigenous peoples …. (rather than just one)!

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  January 11, 2017

              Vanuatu anyone? Pre-empting the French was definitely a concern for Hobson and the English. The French were nowhere near as generous towards the Maori as the English:
              http://www.nzjh.auckland.ac.nz/docs/1992/NZJH_26_1_07.pdf

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              PartisanZ you are lucky the French didn’t colonise NZ because you wouldn’t be here. They would not have tolerated the nonsense. Ask the Kanacs who regularly get sorted when they step out of line.

            • This is fucked-up … implying Maori should accept their lot because it is a better deal than they MIGHT have got under the French …

              What if pre-empting the French was a concern of the Treaty … So!?

              @ Tracy – Votre nom précédent Tim, Timothy ou Timoti? Similaires menaces voilées, c’est tout. Tu es pire que baisé.

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2017

              They seem tolerant in some ways. Don’t they have rather a lot of African & Muslim immigrants in France?

            • With you on this point, Pz.

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2017

              Anyway, isn’t all this ‘what if’ speculations on history all a bit, sort of, not worth arguing about because it’s now been accepted that Maori who were living where they were when that mistranslated piece of paper was signed, & some who didn’t sign it, got their land rorted off & confiscated off & just generally ripped off from them all over the place?

              And they are no longer marauding around grabbing territory off & doing bad things at times to other iwi, and Pakeha have also more or less stopped doing the same, & honest people with good hearts & a sense of fairness are doing their utmost to make amends in such ways as seem reasonable & honourable as things currently stand today.

              My beautiful maunga, Taranaki, & its National Park, was returned to ownership ofTaranaki Maori, who immediately gifted it back to the nation.
              Such generosity.

            • A very good example of Pakeha taking that “leap of faith” Ani Mikaere talks about Gezza …

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  January 12, 2017

              You’ve argued yourself into your usual morass, PZ. The simple fact was as I stated, the annexation of the South Island was to preempt the French and any sensible assessment would concur that Maori benefited from that outcome. Obviously that excludes you and Rangi Walker.

            • Oh no Alan … No. Truly, honestly, I thought you were too intelligent to fall into this one.

              You’ve argued yourself into another of your logical perversions. It simply does not follow that because Maori didn’t suffer under the French they “benefited” instead.

              How could Ngai Tahu benefit from being deemed non-existent?

              Oh no, English pre-emption of the French simply means South Island Maori suffered under the English instead.

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              PartisanZ you haven’t answered the $50,000 question!!
              So if these evil English and Europeans were so bad, why did your grandmother breed with them and ultimately produce you??
              Aren’t you part of that evil race and hence can’t be part of the grievance industry in NZ. You may have to give yourself an uppercut for past wrongs 😂

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2017

              Keep it short or don’t bother PZ. That’s so dense it’s not worth a long reply.

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              Lol 😂 he try’s to baffle everyone with brilliance and Bull dust!!!
              Some of us have a bit more substance than he thinks.

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2017

              That’s as may be but his grammer & spelling in English is a lot better.

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2017

              And can you truly not see the blinkered absurdity of your question?

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              ????

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2017

              Ok, maybe a mid-length reply when you’re ready, PZ. I’m off to do an email to me sister.

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              “And can you truly not see the blinkered absurdity of your question?”
              Gazza ….. and ….what do you mean?
              You surely don’t want me to explain this to you ??!!

            • Pickled Possum

               /  January 12, 2017

              @ Gezza I am in agreement with you bro. The threads on anything to do with Maori brings out the most aggrieved emotions, in all parties. All the eggperts on Maori always seem to be … Non Maori … Amazing. 😉
              @Parti Keep It Short and Simple if you can 😉 that is all that is required in this case.
              @Tracee Your thickly veiled racism is quite sickening so give yourself 2 uppercuts and a knock out!!!

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              Flattened Possum you don’t know who I am and what my past is so don’t surpose anything!!
              That’s any easy cop out playing the race card. I don’t like seeing my country being destroyed by ignorant johnny come lately’s
              Especially by bull shit artists that have been brain washed by half bake radicals!!

            • @ Timoti – “PartisanZ …. Aren’t you part of that evil race and hence can’t be part of the grievance industry in NZ.”

              I never thought I’d get to use this one Timmy, old girl …

              For me its ALL about justice, not race.
              Obviously that’s not the case for you …

  17. Alan Wilkinson

     /  January 11, 2017

    Ngapuhi get even more ridiculous. Taurua now slams the letter they sent to English and supports his decision to stay away:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11780428

    • Tracy

       /  January 12, 2017

      PartisanZ what Maori accepting thier lot ???
      There are no Maori left!! Just NZlanders. If that’s the case then I’m an Irishman because I’ve got Irish blood in me.
      Perhaps I should put a land claim on the British Government or the French Govt. for the little bit of French in me.
      This is how F…ed up you and others like you for claiming long past grievances against full blooded actual Maoris.
      You are stealing from fellow New Zealanders every time you claim past wrong doings, because it’s not yours to claim. It belong to the New Zealand nation and it people. If you feel you need to satisfy your greed claim it off the British Govt. whe were in power at the time – hence why there was a Governor set in place. Your not well mate, people don’t like oxygen thieves!!

      • Sounds like you might need some oxygen Tim …?

        Don’t blow a fuse over it. We’re just discussing things passionately here …

        You really need to bone up on your NZ History mate … From 1854 onwards a succession of English Governors – as sole ‘Native Protector’ – had to contend with a rapacious ‘settler’ Parliament from which Maori were entirely excluded …

        One of the things this Parliament did was repeal [or otherwise negate] the Queen’s Land Purchase pre-emption Clause in Te Tiriti – Article 2 – leaving Maori prey to the treacherous machinations of a government appointed, Pakeha judged Maori Land Court …

        Now Maori have to go back through all of those Court decisions proving to the Crown they were swindled over and over and over again, to achieve something even remotely approaching legal redress …

        I think there is some sort of historic claim going down in Ireland Timothy. You should join it. … Over there …

        • Tracy

           /  January 12, 2017

          PartisanZ why are you so worried about the past you’re not a Maori. You spout all the facts and figures but I’ve got several very well read people in the room killing them selves with laughter!
          You are spouting absolute rubbish, you might have other readers fooled but you would make a better comedian.
          If you have that much conviction on the legal injustice spend some money and do something about it. You won’t because you are one of those that sits in the background making bullets and hoping some other radical will fire them.
          As for your passionate discussion, you are not passionate, you’re treasonous if anything. Anyone that tries to devide a nation needs to be locked up.
          Time will tell when your lot goes too far and threatens New Zealand’s stability.

          • Gezza

             /  January 12, 2017

            Seems to me quite a lot of people get a bit unstable whrn discussing these issues. I try to see both sides of the landscape, as far as I can, though I often feel like I’m in a pudding in the mixer, trying to be a voice of raisin.

            • PDB

               /  January 12, 2017

              ALL Maori claimants should all be tested for levels of Maori-ness and based on that;

              *If they are over 50% Pakeha they pay themselves a historic claim whilst living in guilt at what some other pakeha people (likely to be unrelated to them) did to their Maori portion in the distant past.
              *If they are over 50% Maori they must pay themselves a historic claim amount (based on % they are Pakeha) with the remainder of up to 50% paid to Moriori descendants they killed & stole land off whilst living in guilt at what some other Maori people (possibly unrelated to them) did to Moriori in the distant past.

              Sorted.

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2017

              Looks like someone needs to put some control rods back in the Pile pretty quickly already.

            • Reading Tim Tim especially but also PDB, I’d say the Full Moon is playing its part too Gezza … ?

            • Tracy

               /  January 13, 2017

              Hey PartisanZ cop hold of this multiculturalism and guess who got to the party last. Lol 😂
              And it’s called Australia Day not Maori Protest Day!!

              https://apple.news/ARfauQrkISu-i-0n43E05Yg.

            • PDB

               /  January 12, 2017

              You should get out more PZ – hell, you might even find your first New Zealander! Once that ground-breaking moment happens you’ll notice the country isn’t some neo liberal paradise and ‘white’ people aren’t any worse than anybody else.

            • Tracy

               /  January 12, 2017

              Well said!!😀

            • Oh for Heavens Sake Pantsdown, I am my own first New Zealander, citizen of Aotearoa New Zealand …

              I’m not saying white people are worse than anybody else PDB. You are continually saying or alluding that Maori people are worse than white people!

              What I’m saying is Maori people have not been treated fairly by white people. As a nation we are redressing historic grievances AND we must find a way forward whereby white people’s or Pakeha culture – the all pervasive culture of everything, so ubiquitous we mostly don’t even recognise it as being a culture – and Maori culture are treated equally … somehow …

              Surely equality is implied by “Maori are no better than the White Man”?

              (Equally bad?)

              Surely the possibility we Pakeha have something ‘institutional’ to learn from tikanga Maori is implied by the equivalent inverse: The White Man is no better than Maori …?

            • Tracy

               /  January 13, 2017

              Firstly PartisanZ we are not Pakeha we are New Zealanders hence why European don’t respect people that call them Pakeha. If you want respect in return refer to fellow countryman as New Zealanders. That’s includes all breeds and creeds that live under and support the NZ flag.
              You can’t seem to understand why you get knocked back in NZ and Australia for this type behaviour.
              The chip on your shoulders is getting bigger by the years.
              The sad thing about it is no ones got the balls to tell you. Well my generation has and does.

            • Same old bridge Timoyti … same old Troll …

              Okay, you call yourself a European New Zealander. I get that.

              I call myself a Pakeha.
              Aotearoa NZ is the only place on Earth you can be a Pakeha.

              Is that the same flag so many European New Zealander’s wanted to change last year?

              Oh dear, now I’m personally responsible for both the chip on your shoulder, which seems to be growing exponentially, and the embarrassing fact Tracy that you’ve got balls … along with your generation …

            • Tracy

               /  January 13, 2017

              Watch the video on the URL hoa and learn about being a team player in your own country.
              You did not answer the $50,000 question so I may need to lend you some of my balls.

            • Gezza

               /  January 13, 2017

              He did answer your question Tracy, but because of your monocular vision & looking through the microscope, you didn’t see it.

            • Tracy

               /  January 13, 2017

              Gezza that’s a double standard coming from you, your ignorance has restricted your manners obviously to answering my question to you. There is no need to be rude either, have some manners.By the way who asked for your input. Are PartisanZ mother or something?? Find something constructive to say or say nothing.

            • Tracy

               /  January 13, 2017

              Also Gezza I’m reading these posts on mobile phone and it’s difficult to see everything on a small screen you clown!

            • Gezza

               /  January 13, 2017

              Well, can I first just say, Tracy, that nobody asked you for input either bur that hasn’t stopped you putting it in.

              Can I say, secondly that this is a public forum so when one puts in input it is highly likely that someone, often anyone, will output some input in response to some else’s outputted input.

              Can I say, thirdly that with perhaps occasional lapses I try to be well-mannered in my output, and that reading your contributions of late mine probably stack up reasonably well in the manners department.

              And, finally, your question to PZ intrigued me because it indicated you have no concept of someone having an independently arrived at, considered, view that has nothing to do with who their ancestors might have been. I do not agree with some of the full-on, wound up stuff that PZ comes out with. But I do understand what he means, and that there are alternative perspectives on our history.

              You seem to only see one side. I do not consider myself ignorant, but if I am, I am happy to be educated.

              PZ has answered your question. If is not the answer you wanted, your question may have been wrong.

            • Tracy

               /  January 13, 2017

              Gezza you mean alternatives to our history is people such as PartisanZ putting their own spin on it so following generations are being mislead and creating havoc to the point of disrupting New Zealand’s future.
              Gezza you may want to lie a little straighter in bed mate.
              I’m quite happy with my multicultural outlook and not some distorted veiw of
              how New Zealand should be ruled by mixed blood radicals who feel they have got more privileges than the rest of New Zealand.
              And you know Gezza you just don’t like your separatist behaviour being pointed out because you know people are right.
              In essence you don’t like being told.
              You will learn probably the hard way that the many cultures in NZ will not tolerate the nonsense that PartisanZ preaches. Keep in mind that Whites (Pakeha) you keep referring to are somewhat difficult to detect with their mixed blood, so not sure how you will end up under your terms with a fair and inclusive society.
              I’m willing to wager that you and others will go to your graves frustrated and dissolutioned in the end??!!
              Ps the NZ flag that PartisanZ stated no one wanted is still flying. The suggested alternate was designed by an expat from Melbourne a – Pakeha!!
              And no one in any numbers wanted the Maori Flag. Does that not tell you something??!!😀

            • Gezza

               /  January 13, 2017

              Good morning Tracy. Thank you for your thoughts.

              “You will learn probably the hard way that the many cultures in NZ will not tolerate the nonsense that PartisanZ preaches. Keep in mind that Whites (Pakeha) you keep referring to are somewhat difficult to detect with their mixed blood, so not sure how you will end up under your terms with a fair and inclusive society.”

              Well, I’m as White as they come, ancestrally speaking, and if I were true to my roots, I’d really have it in for the English, just out of solidarity with the other tribes around us during Elizabethan times.
              …….
              “I’m willing to wager that you and others will go to your graves frustrated and dissolutioned in the end??!!”

              I hope not. I’d like a quick & painless exit after a long & generally happy life.
              …….
              “Ps the NZ flag that PartisanZ stated no one wanted is still flying. The suggested alternate was designed by an expat from Melbourne a – Pakeha!!”

              That new one. was a shocker. Hardly anybody wanted that, except maybe as a tea towel. I forget what the numbers were but it got the push, partly I think because it was so hortible.
              ……..
              “And no one in any numbers wanted the Maori Flag. Does that not tell you something??!!😀”

              Yes. Hone & crew were probably going to jump up and down about that if it was because it is nationally recognised as the Maori flag. And *some pakehas* would’ve had a screaming fit too, for similar reasons. But, colour, & style-wise it’s a beauty. I was pissed off when they came up with that just for them because I really really would’ve liked that one instead of the Union Jack – which I still respect because my dad fought the huns under it (well, not literally UNDER it, but it was our flag at the time).
              …….
              So, anyway, where I am on this dying miserably thing is that I actually think this is a pretty neat country & it’s pakeha & Maori people are awesome. I’ll probably expire still thinking so. I’m glad I wasn’t born in Syria. And if everybody would just calm down & treat each other with respect & let people identify with the Maori side of their family or their whanau if they wish & instead of wanking on about percentages of dilution, things will probably work out ok, maybe not perfect, but better than Syria @ the moment.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  January 13, 2017

              Obviously you have no taste at all, G. And the flag numbers were quite close – a few percent if I recall.

            • Gezza

               /  January 13, 2017

              * soz. our flag’s not the Union Jack, of course, it’s the New Zealand flag, but it’s got the Union Jack in it. I’m quite fond of HMQEll, but I ‘m a republican at heart & I expect some day we’ll go that way & have to retire it gracefully after many happy years together. If PZ’s unhappy about that last bit, well, we can’t agree on everything.

            • Gezza

               /  January 13, 2017

              I may have exaggerated for effect Al. Soz. I try not do that too often or people just get horrible.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  January 13, 2017

              I’m sure it’s your Irish heritage, G, so I forgive you. Not for the bad taste though. We live in a country that is green from top to toe and you want a flag that is red and black. Even as a one-eyed Cantabrian I find that unforgivable.

            • Tracy

               /  January 13, 2017

              😀👍🏻🇳🇿 Damn Alan I couldn’t find the Utu Flag on my emojis. I think they only put the realavant flags on there.

            • Gezza

               /  January 13, 2017

              It’s got some white in it Al. Surely that counts for something?

            • Gezza

               /  January 13, 2017

              Who are the Realavants, which flag is their one, and where is their country?

            • Tracy

               /  January 13, 2017

              Those endorsed by their people with some sort of legal constitution or similar.
              Not some group trying use a very poorly written document (treaty) that does not relate to wholly or even In part to the modern world as a constitutional document.
              Or trying to use historic monoracial interests to rule a now multicultural Nation.

  18. Pickled Possum

     /  January 13, 2017

    Morena Gez bro
    Hope you had a peaceful sleep, and all ready to enlighten YnZer’s once again.
    I must say I admire your sense of comedic timing and your very witty and sage responses, I often find myself chuckling out loud at some thing you have said. Sometimes VERY LOUD.
    My dear bro please keep it up. Even your odd bit of swearing does not detract from the message of ‘lets keep calm’ attitude. Butt you know I am really pissed off, you didn’t get the serious growl off from the Colonel about your momentary lapses, or is that A Momentary Lapse of Reason? Some maybe blinded by their own kaupapa, by not you.

    The reason I write is because I wish to have a little say on your comment on Tino Rangatiratanga flag.

    “But, colour, & style-wise it’s a beauty. I was pissed off when they came up with that just for them because I really really would’ve liked that one instead of the Union Jack”

    The Tino Rangatiratanga flag is often referred to as the Māori flag, one which can be used to represent all Māori. Hiraina Marsden, Jan Smith and Linda Munn designed this flag in 1990.[7] It uses black, white and red as national colours of New Zealand. The design of the flag references the Maori creation myth of Rangi and Papa, suggesting the sky, the earth, and the physical realm of light and being which was created when they were separated.[8]
    The official recognition of the Tino Rangatiratanga flag resulted from a campaign by indigenous rights advocacy group Te Ata Tino Toa.” for more see …
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tino_rangatiratanga

    And for your edification today

    • Tracy

       /  January 13, 2017

      😴. Yawn!! “Bro” as you put it in your quasi American ghetto term.

      • Gezza

         /  January 13, 2017

        What have you got against Americans?

        • Tracy

           /  January 13, 2017

          Are you that dumb Gezza??!!
          Nothing at all, but our “Maori descendants” have copied the lingo of the American street culture so much now that the rest of the world and I stress ‘world’ takes the piss out of them. Every advert in Australia for instance that relates to NZ, has a half baked NZlander using the word Bro.Not a good look for a supposed once Proud People.

          • PDB

             /  January 13, 2017

            Gezza has plenty of other lures in his box if you wish to keep taking them?

          • Gezza

             /  January 13, 2017

            Yes it is a bit of a hoot. I have no idea what those rappers are on about somtimes too. Dreadful ‘music’. Yo! and then after that it’s just all rather strange to me. But, still, bro is short for brother. Don’t you know that? There are quite a few ‘pakehas’ (white people of mixed european origins & habits) wIth whom I am acquainted who use that term bro to save a few syllables when they are expressing close bonding with each other, and it is often used affectionately in that sense here by Maori for pakehas in a nice way.

            Anyway, I want to check out some other threads. I hope this is giving you some further things to think about, because I do think about the things you say, but I have heard most of them before. Somtimes put at a little more politely, perhaps.

            All the best.

      • Pickled Possum

         /  January 13, 2017

        Pokokohua!!! Timoti
        Live it bro, its eating you from the inside out and I do KNOW who you are. Your just another bitter twisted hate filled Loser that is part of the problem of derision in NZ but thankfully you and others like you will leave NO legacy to this country just dog daises on top of the earth that you have soured.

        • PDB

           /  January 13, 2017

          Just to calm everybody down…….

          • Pickled Possum

             /  January 13, 2017

            Another Loser who hates to Lose or in the real non PC world is called a racist. Wear that title with pride pants down brown.
            Tell me pants always down why are pedofiles White
            Are all white men just undercover pedos
            Why do white men jump ???
            Dishing it out but can you TAKE THAT.

            • PDB

               /  January 13, 2017

              And that harsh attack was related to what? Have you forgotten to take your pills this morning PP?

        • Tracy

           /  January 13, 2017

          You are a loser with little breeding to respond in such a manner, hence why NZ is going backwards in at a fast rate. to respond in that manner and revert to gutter behavior says it all.
          Why do you use the handle Pickled Possum ” Bro” ? Isnt that an unwanted introduced species like the whiteman? If you want to get rid of the Eropean legacy why are you and your radical friends deposited through out NZs Govt. Depts. allowing British and European immergrants into NZ still?
          Or is that like the $50,000 question that PartisanZ wouldnt answer as its too much of a give away to your credibility “Bro” LOL

    • Gezza

       /  January 13, 2017

      Luvs Possum, sis. Re the swearing. Not sure where I swore, but will have a look & await an earbash from the commander (who I quite like, too).

      • Gezza

         /  January 13, 2017

        (oh, sorry, 😳 . The mimi bit.)

        • Pickled Possum

           /  January 13, 2017

          No bro (short for brother in the Oxford Dictionaries) Is the oxford dictionary English Geza … thought so.
          Any way I didn’t mean the mimi I meant when I got my growl off from the Col you said in your reply to me ‘F@#$k ers I don’t really give a FF = that’s Flying Fuck for the pedantic dolts but just clarifying this as well as te butter, byeee been great to know you but as you well know I have a more serious kaupapa to spend my valuable time on.

          • Gezza

             /  January 13, 2017

            Oh no worries, yes I know I remember that. He was a bit stuffy about that & I agreed with you, but I think i pointed out at the time that he was also of a mind to remonstrate with others over the use of vulgarity. I’m afraid he & I don’t see eye to eye on these Maori-European, Treaty issues. I tend to prefer your perspective mostly, but of course I am still a pakeha so I guess we’ll have some challenges too.

  19. Gezza

     /  January 13, 2017

    The pile is going unstable again. More control rods need to go in.

    • PDB

       /  January 13, 2017

      • Tracy

         /  January 13, 2017

        So true PDB, [deleted name calling and personal criticism – PG]

        • Gezza

           /  January 13, 2017

          Your trouble is you’re not used to having to think.

          • Tracy

             /  January 13, 2017

            Gezza I thought you were going to New thread, because ‘the kitchen was getting too hot’ “Bro”.
            The lack of answers from the Radical Bros tells me they are having trouble justifying their thread responces.
            Your own responses don’t make sense either – quote “I don’t think” what are you on about – again?

            • Gezza

               /  January 13, 2017

              It’s not too hot in the kitchen brother, it’s too radioactive – you can stay here and get the sickness if you want.

    • Conspiratoor

       /  January 13, 2017

      Sing out if you want me to throw the rope down G

      • Gezza

         /  January 13, 2017

        I’m not down there, c. I’m outside in a lead-lined maserati. Watch out for the bright blue glow. It’s not good for people. See ya on ya yacht?

        • Conspiratoor

           /  January 13, 2017

          Good stuff G. I’m about to take the yacht to Sweden to look at Russia. Are you up for some people smuggling via the sea route from St Petersburg to Stockholm?

      • Gezza

         /  January 13, 2017

        Are they foreigners?

  20. Gezza

     /  January 13, 2017

    The trouble is the race cards get played by too many players and then everyone ends up in a bar room brawl.

    • PDB

       /  January 13, 2017

      I haven’t paid any attention to the ‘Hobson’s Pledge’ group but of interest to me was how most wrote them off as ‘racists’, ‘nutters’ and the like without actually debating what the group was saying or suggesting.

      Freedom of speech and the ability for both sides of the story to be told is my focus, whether that be on the Treaty of Waitangi, man-made climate change or Donald Trump. All three of those issues are heavily slanted one-way.

      Unfortunately the ‘race card’ is played far too often by those who want to oppress alternative opinions and avoid healthy debate.

  21. patupaiarehe

     /  January 13, 2017

    Kiaora tatou te whanau 🙂 This thread just won’t die… Sure makes entertaining reading though… 😀