Trump’s Mexico wall

Donald Trump has started to initiate the building of US/Mexico wall, but details are still vague, including costs, time frame and how it will be paid for.

Politico: Trump signs orders on border wall, immigration crackdown

President Donald Trump on Wednesday signed a sweeping set of immigration-related executive actions jumpstarting a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border, cracking down on sanctuary cities, and directing significant resources toward swifter deportations for undocumented immigrants.

“I just signed two executive orders that will save thousands of lives, millions of jobs and billions and billions of dollars,” Trump declared during remarks at DHS. He added, “By working together, safe borders and economic cooperation, I truly believe we can enhance the relation between our two nations, to a degree not seen before, certainly, in a very, very long time. I think our relationship with Mexico is going to get better.”

The ‘economic co-operation’ seems to involve scrapping trade agreements and forcing US companies to pull their manufacturing out of Mexico.

USAMexico.jpg

BBC: Mexico: We will not pay for Trump border wall

Mexico will not pay for Donald Trump’s border wall, the country’s president has said in a message to the nation.

Mr Pena Nieto said: “I’ve said time and again; Mexico won’t pay for any wall.

“It comes as our country is talking on new rules on cooperation, trade, investment, security and migration in the North American region.

“As president I assume the complete responsibility to defend the interests of Mexico and Mexicans.”

Trump may not have thought through the budgeting.

Politico: Trump’s budget-busting immigration crackdown

President Donald Trump’s border wall could cost $20 billion, and his directive to crack down on border security could increase federal government spending by $13 billion a year.

It’s not clear where he’s going to get the money.

Trump said Wednesday, without elaborating, that his plan would “save billions and billions of dollars.” But it’s likely he’ll need Congress to agree to a massive spending increase if he wants to fully implement his vision.

The president has some authority to move dollars around within existing budgets. But his plan could cost more than the entire 2016 combined budgets for Immigration and Customs Enforcement and Customs and Border Protection, which ran to $19.4 billion.

BBC asks How realistic is Donald Trump’s Mexico wall?

President Donald Trump wants to build an “impenetrable, physical, tall, powerful, beautiful, southern border wall” between the US and Mexico.

But how tall? How powerful? How beautiful? The Republican’s big ideas can be small on detail, and the wall is no exception.

The US-Mexico border is about 1,900 miles (3100 km) long and traverses all sorts of terrain from empty, dusty desert to the lush and rugged surroundings of the Rio Grande.

Some 650 miles of the border is covered already by a confused and non-continuous series of fences, concrete slabs and other structures.

Mr Trump says his wall will cover 1,000 miles  (about 1,600 km) and natural obstacles will take care of the rest.

The Berlin wall was about 155 km.  The inner German border fence between East and West Germany was 1,393 km long as waas built between 1952 and the late 1980s. An estimated 1,000 people died trying to cross it.

What exactly will be built seems to be a changing story.

Throughout his presidential campaign, Mr Trump was adamant that he would fortify the southern border with a wall (“a wall is better than fencing and it’s much more powerful”).

The president briefly walked back his promise in November, telling CBS it might be a fence “for certain areas”.

But as recently as his first news conference in January, Mr Trump corrected a reporter who asked about his plans for the structure.

“It’s not a fence, it’s a wall. You just misreported it,” he said.

Mr Rhuzkan’s estimate was based on a wall that ran five feet beneath the ground and 20 feet above. Mr Trump’s claims for the wall range between 30ft and, more recently, 55ft. Even at 1,000 miles – vast amounts of concrete would be required.

The 650 miles of fencing already put up has cost the government more than $7 billion, and none of it could be described, even charitably, as impenetrable, physical, tall, powerful, or beautiful.

And the wall won’t stop people going by air or by sea.

Talking the campaign sound bites is a lot simpler than walking the three thousand km border, let alone building a wall along it.

 

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82 Comments

  1. Kitty Catkin

     /  26th January 2017

    He seems to forget that when something’s on video, it’s there forever. We all heard him say that about the fencing, it is not misreporting.

    If he thinks that Mexico will pay for a wall that they don’t want, he’s mad. If I put up a hugely expensive fence and presented the neighbours with the bill, they’d tell me where I could put fence and bill-as I would if they did this.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  26th January 2017

      ”If he thinks that Mexico will pay for a wall that they don’t want, he’s mad.”

      I’ve thought it through and I have to agree with you.

      But don’t forget you are talking about DT. So far he has shitted us not. To hazard a guess, the only way I can see him making Mexico pay is by economic duress. He will ask the Mexican President to do a simple sum- compare the cost of paying for the wall against the cost of trade renegotiations. ‘Si Senor, we will pay for the wall with pleasure. ‘

      Reply
      • PDB

         /  26th January 2017

        Yes – economic/ immigration pressure, levies etc could in fact make Mexico pay for the wall over time.

        Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  26th January 2017

        He did about Hillary Clinton and ‘locking her up.’

        He constantly contradicts himself and denies that he said whatever it was-look at his tweets.

        If he does that to Mexico, the international response would be immediate and condemnatory.

        Reply
        • PDB

           /  26th January 2017

          Why? Does the US have an obligation to provide foreign aid to Mexico?

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  26th January 2017

            No, as far as I know, but that doesn’t mean that they can wilfully bankrupt them. The fallout would be tremendous, I think.

            Reply
        • Gezza

           /  26th January 2017

          There are quite a few countries whose populations & politicians want better control of their borders & to restrict immigration for perfectly legitimate reasons. Including ours.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  27th January 2017

            Not to that xenophobic extent. Both of these countries were peopled with immigrants, apart from anything else. Trump’s mother was one !

            The baying mob who howled ‘Lock her up !’ must be as mad as wasps at the lame excuse for something that was obviously a non-starter.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  27th January 2017

              They’re Americans. They think Tasmania is New Zealand & that Australia is part of Africa or somewhere around the Urals. I make allowances for their educational failings. Your trouble is you’re too hard on those who’re challenged in the head.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  27th January 2017

              Doing a PhD is a mental challenge; ignorance is a handicap.

              Anyway, they are both countries full of immigrants.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  27th January 2017

              Challenge is PC speak for a handicap.

            • Gezza

               /  27th January 2017

              Doing up their shoelaces is challenge for some of them, I expect. They smoke maryjewana, they drink beer, they take Hummers to drop their kids off 5 minutes walk down the street, they hate Ellen, they let toddlers play with their guns in the back seat when they’re driving – and some, I assume, are nice people.

            • Gezza

               /  27th January 2017

              “Doing a PhD is a mental challenge; ignorance is a handicap”

              “Challenge is PC speak for a handicap.”

              Doesn’t Al have a PhD?

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  26th January 2017

        Several times he has talked about paying for it by taxing remissions of money to Mexico from expats. $23B is remitted per annum.

        Reply
    • Gezza

       /  26th January 2017

      You’re not paying enuff attention to what he & his advisors are saying. He says the Administration will fund its construction but costs will be recovered from Mexico by diverse means still being worked on which may include diverting any aid funds, intercepting remittances, import tax ring fencing – there are several possibilities.

      Reply
      • PDB

         /  26th January 2017

        In 2014, Mexico received a total of $332,311,612 in foreign assistance from the USA – $281,093,177 in economic assistance and $51,218,435 in military assistance.

        Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  26th January 2017

        He pays attention to his advisors ? Don’t make me larf.

        I wonder if he will sack the foreign workers at his resort.

        Reply
        • Anonymous Coward

           /  26th January 2017

          You should watch that documentary below Kitty. It’ll make your blood boil, but essentially it’s about how he doesn’t quite do everything he says he will whilst shitting on everyone from a great height. And a golfcourse.

          Reply
    • Anonymous Coward

       /  26th January 2017

      Actually Kitty, you’re responsible for half the cost of a shared fence.
      https://www.govt.nz/browse/housing-and-property/neighbourhood-problems/problems-with-fences-and-boundaries/

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  26th January 2017

        I know that, but only for half the cost of the most basic fence, not the fanciest and most expensive. And I don’t believe that if there’s already a good fence there (as there is on one side and a reasonable one as there is on the other that either side is under any obligation to pay for half if the other decides to replace it with, let’s say, a fancy and expensive cast iron one. But what is law here is not necessarily international law.

        Reply
    • David

       /  27th January 2017

      “If he thinks that Mexico will pay for a wall that they don’t want, he’s mad.”

      He’s not in the slightest bit mad. There are literally dozens of ways he can make Mexico ‘pay’ that Mexico has not the slightest ability to prevent,

      Hell, just a boarder toll would be enough over time.

      Reply
        • No, Spicer now days says that was one option being considered, not policy. And it was very poorly thought through, slapping ad hoc tarrifs on could have major international trade repercussions.

          Reply
          • David

             /  27th January 2017

            Of course it does. A tariff is also a tax on Americans, not Mexicans. You miss the point, this is the opening shot in a negotiation.

            Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  27th January 2017

        A boarder toll ? Would that apply to everyone who has a spare room and lets a boarder rent it ?

        Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  27th January 2017

        Literally dozens, eh ? Name two dozen.

        Reply
        • David

           /  27th January 2017

          Anything from taxes on remittances from the US to Mexico to application fees on Mexicans applying for green cards to cuts in US aid to Mexico.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  27th January 2017

            That’s three. How about 21 more to make up two dozen ?

            I would think that discrimination on green cards would be a very bad look-Trump’s wives got these easily enough. He can’t make one law for his wives and another for other people. I wait to see if Mrs Trump IV will be American. That is, if he can find anyone who will take the job on. He was quite goodlooking a few decades ago, but he now proves the saying about people ending up with the faces they deserve.

            Reply
  2. Anonymous Coward

     /  26th January 2017

    The Boy’s got game.

    Reply
  3. Kitty Catkin

     /  26th January 2017

    Where are all the workers and materials going to come from ? How long would it take ? Trump would be dead of old age long before it was finished.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  26th January 2017

      Just keep reading the news. These are, of course, interesting & relevant questions & some of the best minds in the Administration & the msm will be setting out to answer them as soon as possible.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  26th January 2017

        That sort of work would be skilled labour, wouldn’t it ? Where are all the skilled workers who are looking for work in that area ?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  26th January 2017

          In Washington. Retraining?

          Reply
        • Anonymous Coward

           /  26th January 2017

          Mexico?

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  26th January 2017

            Even I can see that there would be massive problems with a wall 55′ tall and 5′ underground. It would be like one of those theoretical arithmetic problems. It would either take an unrealistic number of workers or an unrealistic time. And the materials can’t be magicked up slap bang wallop, Not to mention the machinery.

            Reply
            • patupaiarehe

               /  26th January 2017

              Well Kitty, nobody seems to have a good explanation of how the pyramids were built. Yet they are still there…

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  27th January 2017

              That’s a non sequitur. They are nothing like the size of this proposed edifice.

        • Anonymous Coward

           /  26th January 2017

          Those guys down in Twizel must be ready for a new job by now.

          Reply
    • David

       /  27th January 2017

      This is the not the first construction project in the history of the world. Building the wall is really quite simple.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  27th January 2017

        What ? One that size ? This is not Hadrian’s Wall or even the Great Wall of China. Yes, buiildng A wall is quite easy. But one 60 feet from foundations to top and the proposed length of this one ? Dream on. How much concrete would it take ?

        Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  27th January 2017

        You may like to tell us how it would be done. You seem not to realise that this is rather bigger than a swimming pool or even a bridge.

        Reply
  4. Kitty Catkin

     /  26th January 2017

    He doesn’t, of course, feel the need to ‘buy American, hire American’ himself. Two out of the ten cars in his car collection are American-made. One in three of his wives has been American. Do as I say, not as I do.

    Reply
    • patupaiarehe

       /  26th January 2017

      Some say that “Variety is the spice of life”, Kitty… 😉

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  27th January 2017

        In his case, the spice of wife as well.

        But he’s telling other people to do as he does NOT do. He employs immigrants, he marries them, he drives foreign cars (and who knows how many other foreign cars this greedy show-off owns ?) and then tells other people to do as he says, not as he does.

        Reply
  5. lurcher1948

     /  26th January 2017

    A new company is been formed,it’s going to be called the” TRUMP most beautifull wall company” employing wet backs as they are cheap and getting concrete from the “TRUMP greatest cement company”located in Mexico as it’s cheap.

    Reply
  6. patupaiarehe

     /  26th January 2017

    Reply
    • David

       /  27th January 2017

      Can I ask exactly what you think is so challenging with this project? In the feats of human endeavour, this wall is at the bottom end of difficulty.

      Reply
  7. artcroft

     /  26th January 2017

    I’ve just brought a concrete mixer. I’m ready to put my best foot forward for the wall. Just give me a call Donald. And my rates are very reasonable.

    Reply
  8. Alan Wilkinson

     /  26th January 2017

    Estimate of $30+B here:
    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/602494/bad-math-props-up-trumps-border-wall/

    A four lane highway costs about $5M per mile. The US has about 4 million miles of highways so cost equates to $20T. To build a 1000 mile highway would cost $5B. The wall estimate is about 6x dearer per mile.

    Reply
    • patupaiarehe

       /  26th January 2017

      Well, why not Alan? Just put it on our ‘tab’…
      http://demonocracy.info/

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  26th January 2017

        In 2000 some 1.6M illegal immigrants crossed from Mexico. Now it is about 300K per year.

        US trade with Mexico is about $250B each way per year. A pretty small fraction of that would pay for the wall – say $5B per year would be a reasonable return on a $30B loan to fund the capital investment.

        Looking at it like this it seems eminently doable.

        Reply
        • patupaiarehe

           /  26th January 2017

          Anything is ‘do-able’, Alan. The real question, is “Is it the right thing to do?”….

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  26th January 2017

            Not everything is do-able, patu. The cost of 300k additional welfare beneficiaries is probably approx $4.5B per annum. Without the wall this additional cost is accumulating every year.

            Reply
            • patupaiarehe

               /  26th January 2017

              It’s still ‘do-able’ Alan, they just need to borrow a bit more. Obviously, there will be consequences…

            • David

               /  27th January 2017

              “It’s still ‘do-able’ Alan, they just need to borrow a bit more. Obviously, there will be consequences…”

              Not building a wall also has consequences.

          • Gezza

             /  27th January 2017

            The teaser Al was too lazy to post:

            “Mexico may be forced to pay for the building of a wall between itself and America through an aggressive 20 per cent tax on all its exports to the United States, the White House said last night”

            Reply
            • Spicer pulled back from that about 3 hours later, saying it was just one thing that was being considered.

            • Gezza

               /  27th January 2017

              He should maybe stop just rushing to the press as soon as he reads a tweet.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  27th January 2017

            It’s an obvious option. They are just poking it under the Mexicans’ noses. Part of the dating ritual designed to guide your partner to the logical conclusion.

            Reply
  9. He shouldn’t rush the process, the gears of government move slowly.

    Reply

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