There has been immediate collateral damage after US immigration has acted on an executive order signed by President Trump putting an immediate stop to refugees from seven Muslim countries. Some refugees in transit when the order was signed have been detained at US airports.
And a department of Homeland spokeswoman has advised that the ban on entry also applies to green card holders (legal permanent US residents) trying to enter the US.
BBC: Trump executive order: Refugees detained at US airports
Entry to the US for nationals of seven Muslim-majority countries has been stopped for 90 days by Donald Trump.
The exact implications of his order remain unclear. The US State Department has told the BBC it is working on the immediate implementation of the ban.
People fleeing Syria are banned until further notice.
The other countries affected are Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen.
The two Iraqi refugees detained in New York, one of whom had worked as a US Army interpreter, were in transit when the executive order was signed on Friday.
The National Immigration Law Centre (NILC) told the BBC that it was suing President Trump and the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.
It described the two Iraqis as “courageous Haneed Khalid Darweesh, who interpreted for US army & Haider Sameer Alshawi also targeted for aiding US military”.
That appears to mean that people with permanent resident status who were out of the country when the order was signed may not be allowed into the US.
The executive order includes the following measures:
- The suspension of the entire US refugee admissions programme for 120 days
- A ban on all refugees from Syria until “significant changes” are made
- A 90-day suspension on anyone arriving from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen, except certain visa categories such as diplomats
- Priority for future refugee applications from those persecuted for their religion – but only if the person is part of a minority religion in their home country
- A cap of 50,000 refugees in 2017 – less than half of the upper limit under Barack Obama
Mr Trump signed the order on Friday, which was International Holocaust Remembrance Day.
The president’s statement to mark that occasion, on the 72nd anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, made no mention of Jews or anti-Semitism.
This just popped up on my Twitter feed:
Conspiratoor
/ January 29, 2017I’m disappointed in the man. He needed to add saudi arabia to the 90 day list
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017Same.
dave1924
/ January 29, 2017And Pakistan as well….
Kitty Catkin
/ January 29, 2017And take the two who are legal residents and assisted the US military. What an incentive for others to do this-I don’t think. What about American born Muslims like the model whose name has just escaped me ? Will they not be let back in if they go abroad ?
I can’t believe that people who are residents have been barred. That’s like NZ doing to my mother and her partner because they were from Ulster !!!
David
/ January 29, 2017And he has been released to carry on his life under a law that allows interpreters to settle in the US which Trump has respected. Pretty much every country on earth has a Muslim population and only seven of 214 countries have been banned, I got my ETSA visa this week and last time I looked there were quite a few Muslim Kiwis and we arnt on the banned list.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Looks messy. He will have to rethink some of these details.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017What do you mean ‘rethink’, the problem is that they didn’t think it through – or rather have processes in place to deal with people that were already in the air, who are now in jail, people with greencards etc etc etc.
Just sign an order and hope that no NSA agents do anything that turns out to be illegal, top notch thinking.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017Keep an eye on his left hand when he’s signing things with the right one.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017We’ll see if the processes are in place to refine details and apply discretion. Early days. It highlights how many are entering the US on flakey passports though.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017There are no processes Al. And ‘Flakey Passports’, what the …?
Do you mean because of what country is written on the front? Or do you have some evidence of fake passports being uncovered because of this?
I hope it’s the second, as the first makes you as xenophobic as Trump.
Either way, you lose this one.
artcroft
/ January 29, 2017Well put AC.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017To state the bleeding obvious a passport from the likes of Somalia, Yemen and Syria has no legitimate Government behind it – simply a war zone – and therefore little assurance of legitimacy.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017New Zealand ones could be a bit dodgy if Israelis are presenting them?
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017You’re spitting when you talk again Al.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017It isn’t me who’s spitting, AC.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017There was a lot of S’s in your comment.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Were not was. But good point.
artcroft
/ January 29, 2017I’m pretty sure all those countries you mentioned still issue passports. And while their govt institutions are under pressure and I’d suggest a recently issued Syrian passport is probably no more dodgy than one issued by the Central African Republic, which is not on the ban list. Most refugees would travel on UNHCR refugee documentation.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017They’re not on this list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_passports
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017and to also state the bleeding obvious, many of the people being turned away already have residency green cards or are approved refugees, or already have student visas… the vetting system for residency green cards is an 18 to 24 month long process….and the US Immigration authorities have already done their homework on these people
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Yes, that’s why it looks messy.
David
/ January 29, 2017868 people a day were turned away at the border last year under Obama, even ones with visa,s
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017Alan:
D’oh, you don’t say…
Some of us here been saying that for the past year and you’ve taken every opportunity to rubbish our comments, Alan. Now you’re singing from our hymn sheet. Congratulations on your enlightenment.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017When you change direction in a ship the size of the USA there are bound to be messy bits to tidy up. Some will be unforeseeable. The issue is not whether they happen but how they are managed. Let’s see how that plays out before getting too excited. There is nothing abnormal in that for businesses.
Kitty Catkin
/ January 29, 2017I would have to say that the only Syrian I know well would be no loss, but the bugger’s not a Muslim and, of course, we don’t have that policy anyway.
If I was flying back to the country where I was a legal resident and for which I had risked my life, only to be told to sod off, you can’t come in, I would be ‘excited’. What will happen to their jobs, mortgages….and their famiies ? Where are they supposed to go ? If my stepfather had come to NZ after foiling IRA activities and was later told to go back there, they might as well have shot him here and saved the air fare. It will be the same for these men.
David
/ January 29, 2017US residents with dual citizenship are fine, I think you may have the wrong end of the stick with what has been implemented its only “visitors” from these countries that are banned.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017Everybody is fine now.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/316714-federal-judge-blocks-trump-immigration-ban-nationwide
David
/ January 29, 2017Trump implements campaign promise 2 people are held up the media dial the outrage all the way up to 11.
In 2011 Obama slapped a 6 month ban on anyone fro Iraq entering the US and I cant recall anything other than the media happily describing the reasons for it.
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017David, David, David…. 2 people detained is 11 detentions just at JFK Airport by Saturday evening… not counting the other detainees at Atlanta, Houston, and Detroit….
….and not counting any of the re-approved refugees, the students and the workers holding visas and residency green cards who have been barred from flights to the US…. after they’ve already been through an 18 month to 2 year vetting process that has approved their residency?
….oh, and one of those original two detainees has been a US government employee for 10 years….
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/28/airports-us-immigration-ban-muslim-countries-trump
So why shouldn’t the media report on these issues? Do you really want to muzzle the press so soon in Trump’s reign? Are you really that scared of the truth? What have you got to hide?
David
/ January 29, 2017Joe Joe Joe 75 million people visit the USA each year and given how many are already turned around at the border even under Obama its not even a statistical blip. You are the recent failed past Joe first Brexit then May now Trump and this year will see Merkel, Hollande Rutte et al all swept from power along with their socialist failed identity politics. The world is starting to look bloody awesome after 2 decades of lefty liberal elites ruining the gaffe.
Kitty Catkin
/ January 29, 2017David, these people are RESIDENTS. They LIVE there. They WORK there. Their HOMES are there. THEY ARE LEGAL RESIDENTS.
David
/ January 29, 2017And will be travelling on US passports so wont be affected, the only people stopped are residents of these conflict ridden countries who,s travel documents cant be verified. As Obama did in 2011 when he unilaterally slapped a ban on anyone from Iraq entering the US..do you remember all the condemnation then, thought not.
Kitty Catkin
/ January 29, 2017Read the story. They have been detained.
Whose, not who,s.
David
/ January 29, 2017“RESIDENTS. They LIVE there. They WORK there. Their HOMES are there. THEY ARE LEGAL RESIDENTS.”
This does not give them any specific rights that can not be taken away. This is true of all residency visas, they can be revoked without notice.
artcroft
/ January 29, 2017I’m not sure why Putin has directed Trump to issue all these crazy directives. He’s gonna have to dial Trump back or risk losing his secret agent in the White House
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017“On June 12, 2016, Omar Mateen, a 29-year-old security guard, killed 49 people and wounded 53 others in a terrorist attack/hate crime inside Pulse, a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, United States. Wikipedia”
How up to date is that Joe?
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017I thought you’d ask that Gezza. Here’s a link to a more recent set of numbers:
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017It’s when some Southern Chrisso fundy numpty – or someone else – gets carried away & decides now’s the time to burn or crap on a Quran & put the video on the internet that things will really get out of hand.
David
/ January 29, 2017everyday on average 868 people turn up at the US border and are turned away…under Obama.
Kitty Catkin
/ January 29, 2017The nightclub mass murder was done by a nutcase, and there are nutcases everywhere-remember Aramoana ? Dunblane ? The American school shootings ?
Kitty Catkin
/ January 29, 2017It would make more sense to ban toddlers, lawnmowers, buses and beds.
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017Lest we forget:
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017Note that: on Holocaust Remembrance Day. To sign an order barring people because of their religion. What a spiteful fool America has elected.
David
/ January 29, 2017Its not because of their religion its because they are coming from war zones and places where the governments cant be trusted to provide correct information. If it was religious the wouldnt Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, UAE etc, etc. be on the same list ?
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017It’s a list of predominantly muslim countries that the US can safely piss off.
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017You’re defending the indefensible David
David
/ January 29, 2017Joe are you aware of the 220 million in funds that Obama tried to release, illegally to the Palestenian Authority/Hamas which is an organisation that wants to exterminate the Jewish state….strangely silent on that but I doubt you are a supporter of Israel at the end of the day except if you can use it to hyperbole against Trump.
artcroft
/ January 29, 2017Meanwhile Israel is actually operating an apartheid regime. They want the land but not the people. Next step; get the IDF to push the Palestinians into the sea and complain they were forced into it.
David
/ January 29, 2017Well, if the IDF intend to push the Palestinians into the sea they are taking there own sweet time about it. What exactly has stopped them for the last 6 decades?
as for the ‘apartheid’ regime, what are the chances of a Jew surviving long enough in the Palestinian territories to do anything except flee? How about a homosexual? Or a Christian?
Jews and Christians have been systematically cleansed from most of the Muslim world. Hell, Baghdad used to be 40% jewish, Cairo even more. They got pushed into the sea for real.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017“Well, if the IDF intend to push the Palestinians into the sea they are taking there own sweet time about it. What exactly has stopped them for the last 6 decades?”
The rest of the world, watching.
David
/ January 29, 2017“The rest of the world, watching.”
Any chance of the world not ‘watching’ anytime soon? Given the massive population increase of the Palestinians, if the IDF’s goal is genocide they are running out of time….
artcroft
/ January 29, 2017Yeah the world isn’t perfectly perfect so I guess that excuses everything and anything. Saudi Arabia beheads heretics so I should be able to behead heretics as well. What’s your street address David, I want to pay you a visit.
David
/ January 29, 2017Your welcome any time you wish, 160 Douglas St. Let’s see just how this all works out for you.
Conspiratoor
/ January 29, 2017Silly stuff arty, even in jest
David
/ January 29, 2017Don’t talk him down, if he want’s to call me out, I’m more than happy to oblige.
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017Glen Greenwald really nails the humanitarian horror of this whole situation:
David
/ January 29, 2017Havent you just completely undermined your last dozen posts with this one. Saying its a ban on Muslims is a farcical thing to claim.
Joe Bloggs
/ January 29, 2017Your skim-reading lets you down – have another read and this time try to understand the big words, and the bigger implications…
David
/ January 29, 2017Well I think a humanitarian horror is somewhat over exagerating someone holidaying in the US being turned away. Europe has shut off refugees over the last few months to with zero condemnation but a recognition it was a colossal mistake to take one take all.
Kitty Catkin
/ January 29, 2017Maybe they could be made to wear a yellow crescent and have restrictions on their use of public transport (for starters) Nobody in recent times has done anything like that….oh. hang on….
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Solely because of Islamic terrorists US airports are now a nightmare of intensive and oppressive security which to a slightly lesser extent is also imposed on the rest of the world. Because of this the sympathy for Muslim travellers amongst non-Muslims is approaching zero. Likewise the regard for the Islamic religion.
Kitty Catkin
/ January 29, 2017Speak for yourself.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017I usually do, Kitty, but I often find in doing so honestly I also speak for a lot of others.
As far as I can see it is a crap religion without merit and a considerable risk to everyone else.
Kitty Catkin
/ January 29, 2017That’s because you can’t see that the extremists are just that-extremists. There have been appalling things done by Christian extremists, but they didn’t have the means of doing them that ISIS has or they would have used them.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017If Christians were doing these things I’d have exactly the same attitude to them and their religion. But they are not.
David
/ January 29, 2017If Christians did this they would be widely condemned by everyone in Christiandom sadly there is little condemnation from Muslim leadership for these atrocities.
When was the last Christian terrorist attack anyway.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017We will see what Trump’s actions provoke from Muslim leadership. Iran has retaliated with a ban on US passport-holders. I guess that level of initial tit-for-tat is predictable. In the longer run it might force more significant policy and attitude changes, especially if it spreads to other countries overtly or quietly.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017There’s a stay in place Alan, it’s up to the New York courts now.
artcroft
/ January 29, 2017I see a judge has already put a stay on Donald’s mad adventure. This is the big problem that Alan has already identified. No attention was paid to the f***king details. Obama banned refugees from Iraq for six months, and did so successfully. Why can’t trump do the same? Cos the press hate him? No! Its because he’s a fricken idiot.
But will he have learnt from this? “Hey put the pen away Donald and get your ducks in row before you act” That’s not a thought that will enter his mind. Instead he’ll heap more shit upon shit.
The Trump presidency isn’t going to last long. Paul Ryan will draw the curtains on this show within a month. And probably start a war with Iran to deflect attention from the Trump debacle.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017I see that Green card holders will be allowed entry after additional checks. Tweaks and refinements are already being made. The judge has made an interim decision protecting detainees in US airports. That seems sensible too.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017I told you before Alan, you can’t tweak or refine processes that didn’t exist in the first place.
They’re stop-gap measures, not refinements. A properly thought through edict would have had processes for how to handle people in the air, people on the tarmac overseas, people with scholarships to fill, people away on holiday.
The processes for everything else -false passports, refugees, no visa etc are all in place, that stuff gets dealt with every day.
Your man went off half-cocked.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Maybe, AC. A policy has to be implemented. Implementation issues always arise that may not have been foreseen. We don’t know what happened or why yet. There are always two options for change – try to plan the whole thing in advance or deal with whatever actually turns up when it happens. Pros and cons for both options.
I’m guessing Trump saw it as an option between making a statement asap and taking the risk of having the bureaucracy kill it via delay and unnecessary complexity.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017” Implementation issues always arise that may not have been foreseen … ”
Most of those that have already arisen should have been foreseeable to even a total fucken idiot. He’s let me down Al. It’s one thing to fire off a bloody tweet or two, it’s another bloody thing to then just pull them together, sign the fompilation, & call it a bloody policy.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017call that f a c – should be alright then.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Maybe, Gezza. I don’t know enough of what goes on in a mega-bureaucracy like the USA let alone one in transition between two ultra-hostile political administrations to make any judgement on that yet.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017Like I said Al, your boy went off half-cocked.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017I think he was fully-cocked. Don’t know about the bureaucracy though.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017The thing about bureaucracy is that it takes time, my wife who does exactly that sort of stuff for the government here informs me it would take around a month to get everything in place. But that done properly there should be no one languishing in jail for who knows how long.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017Three months minimum for this job here, is my estimate. I’ve worked on a team that’s done something similar.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017You guys need to pull finger.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017“I’m guessing Trump saw it as an option between making a statement asap and taking the risk of having the bureaucracy kill it via delay and unnecessary complexity.”
Hate to tell you Al but this looks like what happens when you have a severe undersupply of bureaucrats – or at least the ones who think about such matters.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Or some hostile ones? Or maybe just a very new Director yet to make enough connections into it?
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017Nah – just a typical top down restructuring by a ‘visionary’ leader, implemented by an imported sycophantic “leadership team” from business, who don’t know the business.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017You mean by a business management team who want to have it running in a week rather than in six months time.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017If thats what you call “running” I guess.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017It’s running already. The courts ruled immediately on the dozen people caught in transit. Green card holders have to apply for further verification. What else have you got?
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017A properly implemented policy wouldn’t require a late night sitting by the court. That proves everything.
What more do I need?
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017I’d love to see the risk assessment.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017So the trade-off was between three months minimum of bureaucrat meetings and paper pushing and an hour in the New York court.
I think the taxpayers won.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017I think the people in jail would have liked to have been told they can’t come in before they got on their plane.
Do you know how long you can stay in jail in the US without being charged?
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017No that covers assessing the various impacts, & designing, writing & implementing changes to all the different systems in an integrated global operation like that, to ensure that when it’s announced & implemented all the risks have identified and covered off & it all goes like clockwork with no embarrassing cock ups.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Probably, AC, but they are out already.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017That’s what I said, G. Just different words. Bureaucrats have to avoid any possible mistake. Business people have to make it work as fast and cheaply as possible. Mistakes can be fixed, often more cheaply than identifying and preventing them in advance. Most (almost all) businesses can’t possibly afford to do the level of planning a bureaucracy would do. They also delegate decision-making further down and trust their staff to deal with issues that come up.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017It’s going to be interesting to see whether, & what, other oversights pop up next, Alan.
On a related note, even 1Ewes picked up & reported prominently that Saudi Arabia is where many Islamic terrorists have come from & that that raises questions about why they’re not on the list.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017“the different systems in an integrated global operation ”
See what you did there G?
Actually G, shutting off an immigration channel is pretty straight forward, the system in place already is very well integrated. There was a whole lot of 5 eyes stuff went down a few years ago integrating the systems and coordinating biometrics and data sharing. Hence those electronic customs gates.
The US already knows who is on a plane before it closes its doors.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Yes, Saudi Arabia is a big conundrum for the US. I haven’t heard Trump say anything about it. There are big internal divisions inside it but I don’t know how the US is playing them. A powder keg I suspect.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017I’m talking about more than just the IT/Intel systems AC. I’m wondering how much effort has gone into identifying who is affected in what circumstances, how comrehensive their assessment is of that, what level of detail is in the instructions issued to posts & staff involved & what else is legally challengeable. I’m just interested to see what happens next.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017People will win court cases, get compensation payouts, and the whole thing will cost the country $3 billion.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017I doubt that AC. Foreigners don’t have a great record of getting money out of US courts. People are getting jailed every day by US Customs often for no good reason but without any recompense.
Anonymous Coward
/ January 29, 2017I wasn’t being serious.
Alan Wilkinson
/ January 29, 2017Me too, G. But what I would be looking at most is how quickly and well problems get fixed.
Gezza
/ January 29, 2017Well, he’s given them three months inititially “to figure out what the hell is going on”. Umm … your country is killing Muslim people directly or via proxies in those countries – that’s probably got something to do with it.