Domestic violence Bill

Domestic and family violence is an insidious and entrenched problem in New Zealand. A Private Member’s bill from Green MP Jan Logie aims to make it easier for victims who are working to deal with violence – Domestic Violence Victims’ Protection Bill – will have its first reading in Parliament on Wednesday.

RNZ: Govt urged to support domestic violence bill

It would give domestic violence victims, or a person in their immediate family or household who is supporting them, 10 days of paid leave to help them move house, attend court hearings and meet with lawyers.

Countdown, The Warehouse Group, ANZ and the University of Auckland already offer family violence leave to their staff.

A few of Countdown’s 18,000 staff had sought help since the policy was November last year, spokesperson James Walker said.

It provided 10 days paid leave, access to counselling services, and help changing emails and phone numbers.

A few of Countdown’s 18,000 staff had sought help since the policy was November last year, spokesperson James Walker said.

“It [the bill] allows us to have a conversation in New Zealand about what more can be done and what the role of business is in that,” Mr Walker said.

The Women’s Refuge helped develop the domestic violence leave policy adopted by The Warehouse over a year ago.

The Refuge’s chief executive, Ang Jury, said the issue was already a huge cost to business.

“If you have got somebody who is trying to deal with violence in their personal life you’re not going to have a productive worker,” she said.

I hope that the bill at least passes it’s first reading so that it can be given further consideration at Select Committee.

National has not yet indicated whether it would support the bill but it could pass without their joint votes. They could also decide whether or not to make it a conscience vote.

The National Council of Women of New Zealand has sent an open letter to Minister for Workplace Relations, Michael Woodhouse.

Domestic and family violence is at epidemic levels in New Zealand costing the economy an estimated $8 billion a year. This is not ok. We are writing to urge you to support MP Jan Logie’s Domestic Violence Victims’ Protection Bill (Supporting victims of domestic violence) at its first reading on Wednesday so that it can go to Select Committee.

Among other provisions, the Bill proposes that people affected by family violence should be able to take up to 10 days’ leave. This will help them move house, attend court hearings and meet with lawyers.

Put simply: this Bill will save lives. It will make it easier for people to leave violent relationships and stay in employment. It will also keep victims safe at work from their abusers.

We acknowledge the government has taken action on domestic violence but more needs to be done. This legislation acknowledges that violence at home also impacts the workplace. There is research to suggest that businesses benefit financially and in other ways when they support their staff. Supporting victims of violence is the right thing for employers to do.

If you and your colleagues support this Bill, it can be heard at select committee. There, we can debate its effectiveness and the best way to support victims of family violence in the workplace.

I would be surprised if the Bill isn’t passed unopposed at least at the first reading.

The letter was signed by Rae Duff, president of the National Council of Women of New Zealand. It was also supported by:

  • Dr Jackie Blue (ex National MP) Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner
  • National Collective of Independent Women’s Refuges
  • New Zealand Council of Trade Unions Te Kauae Kaimahi
  • The New Zealand Public Services Association
  • Janet Hope, Governor Zonta District 16
  • Vicky Mee, President NZ Federation of Business and Professional Women
  • NZ Nurses Organisation
  • Jane Stent, National Representative Soropimist International NZ

 

 

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133 Comments

  1. Gezza

     /  13th February 2017

    My first reaction was that this was getting a bit OTT because surely to God there aren’t THAT many workers who are in situations of domestic violence that they need to be given special leave provisons on top of parental, sick, holiday & annual leave. But it sounds like there might be quite a few good, caring employers who see this as a big enough problem for some of their staff to be supportive, or at least not be opposed to the idea.

    Interested to hear from any posters who are current or past employers.

    Reply
    • Noel

       /  13th February 2017

      Back in the 1990’s my wife and her workmates helped a fellow worker in a desperate relationship get out to her only relatives in Aussie. Management knew and quietly assisted.

      Reply
  2. I agree with the intent of this bill. Anything that gets this conversation out in the open.

    Generally, no changes in attitudes seem to be imminent from what I can see. The problem is cultural. We have serious problems with certain demographics and when men like Willie Jackson are rape apologists – how hard it will be to change things. The anger inherent in certain demographics is palpable and it’s intergenerational. Where you have children having children, with little family support and no resources, what can we expect! When parents are often semi-literate to boot and the generation to generation cycle is mere lurching from disaster to disaster – what show for intelligent, educated, purposeful parenting and breaking cycles.

    Problem needs to be owned at source before it can be addressed.

    Reply
    • Noel

       /  13th February 2017

      Which certain demographics?
      I thought domestic violence was universal?

      Reply
    • Pickled Possum

       /  13th February 2017

      Problem needs to be owned at source before it can be addressed

      Dear Trav, Do you have a source in mind?
      Could this certain “cultural certain demographic inter-generational generation,”
      have a change of attitude and then all will be love and peace.
      How will this be implemented in a little provincial town with FA social services, no money allocated to ‘trickle down’ to the victims. How can this be addressed?
      Where are the intelligent, educated, purposeful parenting role models in society now…
      today, capable of standing up and showing the victims of domestic abuse,
      how to go about ‘breaking cycles.’ …

      I am all for breaking cycles and I also realise that when you let a bad negative attitude go there must be a positive attitude to take its place. Woman refuge is a refuge of our children also who witness daily violence. Mens groups are struggling to find funds and relevance today. Why? as they are the mostly the sad bad and mad predators.

      At least 74,785 children and young people aged under 17 were present at domestic violence situations attended by police
      https://womensrefuge.org.nz/domestic-violence/

      I agree with you Trav … “Anything that gets this conversation out in the open.”
      is OK in this corral.

      Reply
      • It doesn’t take a stats scholar to highlight stats that reveal societal ethnic representation and the offenders/victims figures reveal skewed and disproportionate offending.

        Having seen true, unassisted poverty (as I’m sure most here have) at a third world level, and seen the impact of parental emphasis on education before all else, I know that it is largely a poverty of values and an unwillingness to change that causes violence.

        https://nzfvc.org.nz/sites/nzfvc.org.nz/files/factsheet-statistics-2009-1.pdf

        https://nzfvc.org.nz/sites/nzfvc.org.nz/files/Data-summaries-snapshot-2016.pdf

        https://nzfvc.org.nz/sites/nzfvc.org.nz/files/DS2-Violence-Against-Women-2016.pdf

        Reply
        • Joe Bloggs

           /  13th February 2017

          There’s a problem with data on family violence and that is that the incidence of family violence amongst rich white families is systematically under-reported – it still goes on but the victims/survivors are far better resourced to work through the issues without going to the likes of police or women’s refuge.

          Higher income domestic violence hides behind a veil of silence which is often bought off or managed through lawyers. Or they’re not reported because victims are afraid they’ll lose their friends and social status if they leave or they simply won’t be believed.

          Events like Charles Saatchi throttling Nigella Lawson still happen and happen regularly. They just don’t get seen.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  13th February 2017

            How much does it vary from country to country? I hear this a lot Joe, & there’s no doubt it goes on, but I can’t say I’ve seen anything that suggests it’s as prevalent AND as physically damaging as the sort of domestic violence reported all the time in this country.

            Reply
            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              Don’t know how much it varies from country to country Gezza and the numbers ARE very hard to pin down because so little research has been done on the wealthy…but anyone who tries to argue that domestic violence is a problem that’s exclusive to the poor or people of colour is trumping with your head and fudging the facts…

              Here are a couple of links – I know the Daily Beast is not perhaps the most compelling academic source but it def touches on some of the issues in this area.

              https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/march/1425128400/jess-hill/home-truths

              http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/28/domestic-violence-among-the-wealthy-hides-behind-veil-of-silence.html

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              You get this stuff all the time but it simply isn’t true, Joe. Yes, there is some domestic violence at all levels but the worst in both quality and quantity is heavily skewed into a subculture.

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              So you work in the field of DV, Alan? Or just opining from ‘on high’?

              ‘cos you say this stuff all the time, but it isn’t as simple as you sound…

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              Stats and life experience say the same things, JB. Got any contrary evidence or are you just opining from on high?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              My history on the subject goes back to the early 1980’s when Doris Church started the Battered Women’s Support Group in Chch and was one of our closest friends. My wife helped her a bit and I went as a supporter with her when she went to try to get the local police superintendent to get his staff to intervene much more effectively in these cases.

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              So you’re saying you don’t work in the field AW but you think you can comment more authoritatively than those who do…

              Let me repeat… There’s a problem with data on family violence and that is that the incidence of family violence amongst rich white families is systematically under-reported… I’ve linked to two easily accessible documents that explain why the statistics lie (or at very least misrepresent the extent of the issue).

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              That’s good Alan…

              I work in the field and see DV issues across every segment of society – some get publicised and caught in the data. Lots doesn’t and when shit happens that doesn’t get publicised or caught in the data it’s all too easy to sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              More utter tosh, JB. Your Aussie link says indigenous women are 31 times more likely to be victims than others. The police guess 50% of DV assaults are not reported. Where is any evidence of significant misrepresentation?

              The Daily Beast article focuses mostly on legal stoushes involving very wealthy couples with no evidence whatever there is less reporting by them compared with other sectors. Given their much greater resources and better education I would suspect poorer people would be much more easily trapped. Maybe the rich just walk out fast without involving the cops but I would want to see evidence before assuming that. If anything I would suspect the under-reporting is heavily at the other end of the wealth spectrum.

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              NZ experience:

              “This is not something that happens in some parts of New Zealand. This happens across every single social, ethnic, age and socio-economic group,” she said.

              “We have to acknowledge that. It happens in every street, in every community. To make people think about this more and talk about this more, that is part of our challenge. We absolutely can and must do better.

              New Zealand hasn’t really grasped the full extent of the problem.

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11634543

              UK experience:

              Educated and well paid women ‘more likely to suffer domestic abuse’
              Women earning more than 67 per cent of the total household income were seven times more likely to experience psychological and physical abuse compared to lower paid women

              http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/sarah-knapton/10679238/Educated-and-well-paid-women-more-likely-to-suffer-domestic-abuse.html

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              The NZ one offers no evidence. The UK one negates your claims. The violence is perpetrated by the less wealthy and less educated. I would also expect that a large proportion of households in which the woman earns more than the man are not wealthy.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  13th February 2017

            An estate agent whom I knew was once in a violent marriage-her husband knew where to hit so that the marks wouldn’t be visible, although he did sometimes get carried away and not care. He was also in a profession, I forget what.

            There is also that shame that the victims feel-as I know-one doesn’t want to admit it. Admit one’s own poor judgement ?

            The time, a few years ago, when an accident caused me to have two really bad black eyes as well as a gashed chin, I knew that people were thinking that I had been beaten up, Anyone would have, it looked like it.

            I felt that the Saatchi ‘throttling’ was a controlling, demeaning thing rather than a serious attempt to harm her. Not that that makes it all right, it doesn’t.

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  13th February 2017

              I wonder what response my husband would have had if he’d been the one with the black eyes and gashed chin, He was a bit too long in the tooth to have been in a fight, though I suppose that it was possible but I bet that people wouldn’t have pitied him in the same way if they thought that I’d done it.

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              what does “a serious attempt to harm someone” mean Kitty?

              It’s easy to see your bruises, your black eyes, or a split lip… but a damned sight harder to see emotional abuse… or someone else with complete control of your spending (‘cos they earn the megabucks, they get to say how it’s spent as well, eh…)…

              And its a damned sight harder to accuse your partner if he happens to be a “captain of industry” or a well-connected political figure…

              As for Saatchi, he was issued with a Police Caution for assault. Grabbing her by the throat was a controlling demeaning thing and a serious attempt to harm her emotionally and physically. It was also a naked display of power – there’s a special kind of arrogance needed to choke a famous person in a paparazzi-ringed restaurant and think you’ll get away with it…

              Sadly, for all of the spectators who witnessed the assault no-one stepped up to intervene. No-one stood up and spoke out. And it’s likely that the photographer who captured the moment even made money selling the images.

              Instead we look away at the time, tut-tut later, and use man-splaining tactics to rationalise why it’s somebody else’s issue

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  13th February 2017

              The restaurant wasn’t ‘paparazzi ringed’, only one person took photos.Them having lunch wouldn’t have been that newsworthy-it’s not like a film or rock star.If there had been a ring of photographers, the photos would have been far less valuable. I meant, of course, that he wouldn’t be fool enough to kill her in public. As I remember, it was a private table, certainly not seen by a lot of people. The fact that it was probably a ‘technical assault’ would not have made it less horrible or shaming.I seem to remember that I said it was controlling and demeaning. He sort of squashed her face, didn’t he ? It wasn’t strangulation, it was I’m the boss here.

              What would you have done ? He was using one hand, it was not violent-no hitting or anything-and saying anything could well have humiliated her even more. The best thing to do, I suppose, is to make some sound or do something that makes it obvious that you are nearby and can see/hear. Then, if it doesn’t stop-call the cops.

              I have done this a couple of times. I could hear something going on inside a house and it sounded as if the woman on each occasion was getting the worst of it. On one occasion, the boys in blue obligingly drove past before I’d finished dialling and I flagged them down.

            • Tau toko that Joe. Kitty exhibits that acculturated emphasis on the purely physical … the visible damage …

              But what if emotional, psychological and/or sexual abuse leads a person – who let’s face it will usually be a woman – to disappear, abandon the family, be institutionalised or take her own life …?

              The downstream consequences can be appalling for all concerned and just as “inter-generational” (especially when young children are involved) regardless of the social strata the woman comes from …

              “man-splaining” … Excellent! Did you coin this word?

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              Tautoko you too Parti…and you raise another big problem in DV… that visible injuries become a de facto definition of DV…

              the police have some real issues here – essentially they’re powerless to intervene if the violence is emotional or psychological or financial or if the violence is seemingly trivial – there’s a push, there’s a shove, here’s a squeeze of a hand round the neck, a bit of hair-pulling, a bit of lip…

              The issue with this is that the law focuses on incident-specific stuff, on the discrete acts of violence. And because most of the discrete acts of violence are a push, hair-pulling, a clout or a bit of lip, little of it is serious enough to warrant police action. And whatever action is eventually taken by the police, very little is significant enough to inhibit subsequent DV crimes.

              And that leads us to use a calculus of physical harms to assess the severity of a particular assault. Is the assault serious enough to warrant intervention? Where does “sort of squashing her face” rate in the spectrum of domestic violence? How do you measure the seriousness of the psychological trauma?

              But if you look at the holistic picture, the pushes and the hair-pulling and the bit of lip get repeated and repeated – they become parts of an extended pattern of intimidation and isolation and control.

              Evan Stark at Rutgers U does a lot of work in this area and he uses the term “coercive control”. In coercive control the holistic pattern of behaviour is the crime, rather than a specific incident.

              Interesting that Stark also refers to DV as a kind of domestic terrorism. He argues that it’s a kind of domestic hostage taking in which the victim has no outside to escape to, because the supposed safe place, the relationship, the home, the family network, has been identified as the point of imprisonment and entrapment.

              When you start considering DV in these ways it becomes apparent that much of what we call DV is liberty crime…. like the shenanigans that Charles Saatchi got up to…coercive control…

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              @ PZ. ‘Mansplaining’ has been around for quite some time now. It’s a term commonly used by misandrist feminists, ordinary feminists, female columnists, and also by HLGBT people with a sense of humour when they refer to men trying to explain why men sometimes see something from a different angle than women, or why they totally screwed up & burnt the offering when cooking dinner for the GF, LF or the Mrs.

            • Joe, that’s a marvellous summary of the situation as it’s developed under Darwinian Law-of-the-Jungle applied to humans, the one species Darwin wasn’t talking about …

              It leads me again to the subject of educational, ‘personal development’ and other pre-emptive approaches we collectively might employ alongside refuge and relocation, prosecution and punishment … the lifelong trespass & non-molestation order …

              At the very heart of the problem is Emotional Intelligence IMHO, and the lack of it in our population generally, perhaps especially in men …

              If anyone thinks our ‘Lord of the Flies’ school playgrounds will teach EQ … think again … Here’s a significant DV breeding ground IMHO … along with the inevitable Family of Origin … [I’m not sure where classrooms themselves are AT with this presently … other than IT taking the focus?]

              So much of what passes for connective communication is in reality coercive control … the bully and the manipulator learn this early at school and probably master it later in business … and that’s where any shift in focus from competition to cooperation, from separation to collaboration will assist …

              I wonder if students together in isolation staring all day at LCD computer screens is going to help in the long term …?

            • @ Gezza – “man-splaining … a term commonly used by misandrist feminists, ordinary feminists, female columnists, and also by HLGBT people with a sense of humour when they refer to men … ”

              I’m glad I’m not any of those types of people and I don’t have one of those SoH things either then … eh …?

              I never get to the burning part …. I’ve usually had a meltdown by then!

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              “I’m glad I’m not any of those types of people and I don’t have one of those SoH things either then … eh …”

              Well, I thought hetero, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender probably would’ve included you somewhere in that spectrum but I guess there are other categories like asexuals, and celibates, & whatever. You have an SoH, PZ, though it’s hard for me to guess how often it gets a workout from your posts here.

          • Joe Bloggs

             /  13th February 2017

            Data on domestic violence against women in New Zealand is scarce. Data is largely dependent upon reporting and recording practices, and is unlikely to accurately represent the incidence of domestic violence against women in New Zealand

            – Data Summary 2: Violence Against Women New Zealand Family Violence Clearinghouse “Data Summary: Violence Against Women”, June 2014, p.

            researchers interviewed 100 women from British Columbia who were largely from higher socioeconomic backgrounds and were not considered at high risk of postpartum mental health problems. The study participants were recruited to participate in a broad health and wellness study, which was not specifically focused on domestic abuse.

            Sixty-one percent of the study participants reported symptoms of postpartum mental health problems within the first three months after childbirth. And 47 percent of the 100 women reported symptoms at “clinical” levels, meaning the symptoms were of at least moderate severity.

            Eighty-four percent of the participants reported experiencing physical, psychological or sexual abuse at the hands of a partner prior to becoming pregnant. Seventy percent of the 100 participants reported some form of abuse by their romantic partner during pregnancy. These forms of abuse ranged from name-calling to rape and physical assault with a weapon.

            “We found that women who had experienced abuse were more likely to suffer from postpartum mental health problems, and were much more likely to suffer from those problems if the abuse occurred during pregnancy,” Desmarais says. “In addition, the more types of abuse they experienced, the more severe the mental health symptoms they reported. We also found that specific types of abuse were associated with specific problems.”

            The researchers found that psychological abuse — verbal and emotional abuse — was associated with stress and PTSD. Physical abuse was associated with depression, OCD and PTSD. Sexual abuse was associated with stress, depression and PTSD.

            https://publichealthwatch.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/new-research-on-domestic-violence-shows-devastating-impact-on-new-mothers/

            I don’t need to continue – the facts are self-evident, and there’s plenty more like these links

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              I read the study. The report and especially the headline is not justified by the study. The participants were self-selected and there is no attempt to estimate how representative of the population they were. Many of the relationships claimed were weak and the sample size was small – only 100 participants. Both serious and minor abuse levels were lumped together for much of the analysis. There was no consideration of whether some forms of mental health problems increase the likelihood of triggering or reporting abuse. Also the confidence levels are likely to be overstated in this kind of relationship hunt as the researcher selects for those looking good by chance. They need to be tested in separate studies.

          • Nice anecdote – do you have a survey from a reputable research organisation to back that up?

            I wouldn’t want Gezza not to give you a fair score for not backing the statement with a nice link…

            Reply
        • Pickled Possum

           /  13th February 2017

          @ Trav Thanks for that. A reminder.
          I read those stats a few weeks ago and saw a rise 1% in pakeha woman using WR services and a 1% drop in Maori woman

          Family violence occurrences
          2005 56,380
          2006 61,768
          2007 69,893
          2009 72,482 and rising

          2006/2006 24% Pakeha Maori 48%
          2006/2007 28% Pakeha Maori 43%
          2007/2008 30% Pakeha Maori 47%
          Clearing house stats

          The one that PMO was that there is a rise in the group aged 0-4 witnessing Family violence, and seeking Womans Refuge help along with their mothers.
          These children are going to be broken members of our society prone to do un-caring things. The financial cost to society will be great, i.e. $100 k+ a year to house a prisoner.

          The New Zealand Drug Harm Index 2016 estimates the social cost of drug-related harms and intervention costs in 2014/15 as NZ$1.8 billion.
          http://www.health.govt.nz/publication/research-report-new-zealand-drug-harm-index-2016

          Will some of that money be channelled into Womens Refuge or just pay for glitzy Ads and have a list of websites on where to get help.
          How do you find out if any money is given to Women Refuge.

          Until the broken are picked up and advised that there is a better life, bad stuff will still happen; until the victims and perpetrators grow to an age of understanding … or seeing their children display victim or perpetrators behaviour, can they fix it or
          Will it be to late by then, to put super-glue on a rotten attitude.

          I see a lot of mixed marriages Maori women Pakeha men violent domestic abuse and mostly avoid ‘help’ unless hospitalised.

          Reply
          • ..and there you have it. These figure are based on “reported” stats

            Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  13th February 2017

            Violence is abuse but not all abuse is violent. It was suspected that the Bitch from Hell who married a much loved friend was using violence; it was known that she was using other forms of abuse. He wouldn’t admit it-what could any of us do ? It was only later that he told of some of the abuse. One thing was that (I suppose that his aim was a bit off, as older men’s aim is) that she made him go outside in all weathers to pee, as if he was a dog. Believe me, you’d go.

            My father was never violent, but he used another form of abuse-silence. It doesn’t sound much, does it ? But living with it, and never knowing what would trigger it, and having to second guess all the time what would cause or had caused this total blocking out was incredibly damaging. Someone would say something wrong and down would come the shutters. I am not talking hours here, it would go on for weeks or even months, then, when the punishment was deemed to have been enough, it would end.. Because nobody here knows who I am, I am saying this.It’s only recently that I have been able to. My mother ended up an alcoholic, after she turned to alcohol to cope with it. We left in the middle of one of the silences, as it happened, although it had been planned. I never heard from my father again. The effect on all of us was lifelong. I began a relationship with a violent man-I didn’t know any better at 18, I thought that I was lucky to have anyone take an interest. I suspect (believe) that my brother is also an alcoholic, but, unlike my mother, he has never dried out.

            I do know about psychological abuse, only too well.

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  13th February 2017

              Psychological abuse, I suspect, leaves the victim feeling that they deserve it-they’re somehow inferior and can’t control their life.The other person is stronger. The fear of PEOPLE FINDING OUT is one factor.

              It wasn’t terrible all the time-just most of it. I remember my fatherpatiently twisting swing chains or ropes to give us that scary thrill of spinning around and around as they untwisted, When I did this for two little boys a while ago, I told them that when I was little, my father did that. The reaction was a blank look-as if I’d said that my dog was once a cat. They simply couldn’t imagine that an adult was once a child.

              Now, I can forgive him, or am on the way to it.. But it’s taken ahem cough cough years and the effects are still there.

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              why is psychological abuse any less “violent” than physical abuse, Kitty?

              Like Parti says, that sort of response is an acculturated emphasis on the purely physical, and the product of a legal system that focuses on the physical…

              The commentary is a couple of years old now but Bryan Gould’s reminder that we can be as easily damaged by psychological abuse is still very current…
              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11191018

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  13th February 2017

            Because they are two different things. Both are abusive and both are damaging-I have said that I am aware of that. You seem to be being deliberately obtuse. I am not going to keep saying it over and over. They need to be treated differently. Calling them the same is fudging the issue.

            Violence is by definition, physical. Psychological abuse isn’t.They are damaging in their own ways.

            It’s simplistic to say that because all violence is abuse, all abuse is violence. All As are bs, ergo all Bs are As. Not.

            It would be difficult to charge someone with psychological abuse-what evidence is there ? But violence is tangible. The person has bruises or broken bones. There can be no argument about that. The violent person did it, they can’t deny it. What I heard-and called the police about-wasn’t psychological abuse, how on earth would I know about that in the relationship ? That wasn’t what I was hearing.I didn’t know the people and their relationship. It sounded-and I hope it wasn’t-as if the woman was either being or about to be hit.

            I would guess that one would have a better chance of reforming a violent person than a psychological abuser.

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  13th February 2017

              In other words, violence can be proved more easily than mental abuse.

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              and that in a nutshell is why you’re unsuited to working with people who experience DV

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              I expect a most of both are taught and inherited, Kitty. Children need good role models to show them how to behave and deal with problems. There has to be a role for schools in this, perhaps a bigger one than they now undertake.

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  13th February 2017

              Now you’re starting to talk sense Alan. Good effort. Children do need good role models and there’s a place for the school system to help address this issue but the approach has to be consistent at every touch point – parents, whanau, hapu, schools, social engagement, and so on…

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              So how do we make it consistent at every touch point Joe?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              It will never be consistent. Children have to be given the tools to cope with that and judge the good from the bad to use in their own lives. Sometimes just one good role model who believes in them will be enough.

  3. Education and parental reverence for same would go a long way to addressing this disparity. Certain demographics do not trust, and often actively fear or despise government agencies. This needs to change and we need more NGO activity

    Reply
  4. To paraphrase traveller, especially in relation to other ‘devolution’ discussions, “The problem needs to be addressed at source before it can be owned” because there are multiple sources and numerous owners …

    I believe ‘Intimate Partner Violence’ even moreso than ‘Domestic Violence’ are less-than-ideal names for the human behaviour at issue here? ‘Domestic Abuse’ or ‘Family Abuse’ would be more accurate IMHO for 2 reasons: 1) To remove the implied singular focus away from the material only, from purely physical violence and visible injury, and 2) To accurately reflect our legal definition of ‘Domestic Violence’ which includes sexual and psychological abuse; as per nzfvc below, who themselves initially describes it as ‘Family Violence’

    https://nzfvc.org.nz/content/family-violence-policy-and-legal-definitions

    This is part of a subtle neo-colonisation of language contigent with the great reforms of ‘deregulation’. Language that lowers everything to the level of physical safety and/or satisfaction; of ‘want and acquire’ materialism.

    To exaggerate: Language that describes and defines societal malfunction as social dysfunction.

    It apportions (heaps) blame upon individuals and families – the low-paid, under-employed and unemployed – sufferers of various social, communal and personal ills – Maori and Pakeha (in that order) – women and men (in that order) – making them absolutely and entirely responsible (guilty) for their own circumstances.

    It’s the language of scapegoat-ism, fear mongering and punishment justification. Punishment includes austerity, aka under-resourcing.

    We need to be very careful how we use this language and, if devolution of social services is truly coming – as ‘Demarcation Zones’ & TOP policies indicate it might – we need to recognise and refute the language of spin and advertorial …

    Reply
    • Assuming for a moment that sexual abuse remains constant throughout society, I suspect that as wealth, education and ‘achievement’ rises in socially stratified Aotearoa New Zealand, domestic abuse becomes increasingly less physical and more psychological …?

      I suspect the psychological is more difficult to act upon, convince police and courts about, prosecute and sentence … To follow through on …? Consequently it may be less reported?

      It may also be more difficult to convince sympathetic employers about …?

      While its inevitable we must look at and deal with the bad and worst, we also need to keep in mind the ideal and best. Wholistically, this issue can also be about positive, non-abusive relationships including healthy conflict resolution, as it can be about physical, sexual and psychological abuse …

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  13th February 2017

        Sounds interesting. Very pessistic sort of outlook though. Any credible evidence supporting your suspicions?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  13th February 2017

          * pessimistic. Soz. Trying to find a free photo-editing add @ the same time.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  13th February 2017

            Jesus!! 😡 * app.

            Reply
            • Gezza, Really!? You find my words of warning, like “Language that describes and defines societal malfunction as social dysfunction” and words of encouragement like “we also need to keep in mind the ideal and best” plus my “suspicions” – all clearly labelled with question marks – to be a “Very pessistic sort of outlook” …?

              Meanwhile, do you find traveller’s “certain demographics” and “Where you have children having children, with little family support and no resources, what can we expect!” … What …? Optimism!?

              I don’t have any “credible evidence” supporting my suspicions, no, but Joe Bloggs comment above about “systematic under-reporting” etc lends credence to my conjecture …

            • Pickled Possum

               /  13th February 2017

              Hiya Geeza In my mahi I have come across a wide cross section of society who are in abusive relationships and many like this …
              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11793295
              No stats … I have found the woman do not want to have their ‘troubles’ made public … social media just loves a victim they can dissect and point a finger.

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              @ PZ

              “I suspect that as wealth, education and ‘achievement’ rises in socially stratified Aotearoa New Zealand, domestic abuse becomes increasingly less physical and more psychological …?”

              No, I was thinking of this. Personally, & going by the mountains of commentary I see claiming that the lack of these things is the underlying cause of the domestic & violence in our society, I would expect to see a reduction when these things improve. I used to be a pessimist too, but then I realised they are always miserable, never happy, never able to see beyond the next problem looming – according to them. Awful people to surround yourself with. Depressing.

              Optimists are better. They might be unhappy from time to time, but they tend to focus on what’s working, and what can they do about it. I like practical optimism.

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              @ Possum

              Taken on the wall in the corridor to dad’s ward at Wellington Hospital last September.

              It’s worth remembering there are other, usually unreported, silent victims of DV too.

            • @ Gezza – “Optimists are better.”

              Black OR White, Wrong OR Right … Dark OR Light …

              “There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so” – Hamlet.

              Just call me an ‘Optipessimist’ then …[new word # 86]

              … or perhaps a ‘Utopirealist’ …? [# 87]

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              @ PZ

              10 minutes. How many things can you come up with that are good about New Zealand & pakeha?

              1818 hours

            • … Sorry Gezza … Not playing … 18.37 pm …

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              Blimey. You had nearly 20 minutes. And you couldn’t even manage ONE?

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              Maybe I was unfair there PZ. You probably didn’t see my post straight away. Tell what. You post your own start time, and take your 10 minutes from that? The wordpress orange dot will tell me when you post again.

            • Pickled Possum

               /  13th February 2017

              @ Geeza Yes I acknowledge that there are males of domestic abuse,
              I wish it was talked about more openly.
              My comments are born out of direct experience, and in all the hundreds of victims I personally have aided I only had 1 male,
              So I just speak of what I know.
              And there is all sorts of abuse physical mental spiritual
              Stats tell us that Women are the ones that suffer the most.
              Go mens anger management groups!!!

  5. Kitty Catkin

     /  13th February 2017

    One ‘problem’ is that physical violence is often obvious, psychological abuse isn’t. It doesn’t leave bruises or broken bones.

    It may seem a tangent, but I read an article about Renee, the girl who was in the Plumley-Walker case. There was a photo of her as a very small child. Someone had posed her sitting with a tin of beer between her legs and a cigarette in her hand. Someone thought that this was funny, they must have. I didn’t. To me it was abuse-even if it wasn’t extreme.

    Reply
  6. Relationships are difficult beasts. Throw a lack of education, self-esteem, a couple of kids, money concerns , little family support, zero role modelling and a lack of occupation into the mix and you’re on a slippery slope of anger, transference and abuse.

    I’m of the mind that fiscal and relationship modules are about the most important tools we can give our kids. Best of all is a stable home with parental love and example. That’s not happening any time soon. Sadly, the hand of the state needs to be across the issue.

    Reply
    • @ traveller – “fiscal and relationship modules” … Yes.

      And, with the hand of the state already involved, why not tackle “lack of education [and] self-esteem … money concerns, little family support, zero role modelling and a lack of occupation” as well?

      Continuing education including self-esteem-building activities … improve the Precariat’s financial situation using fairer redistribution … connect whanau and extended family or, in their absence, neighbourhood elderly and younger couples … likewise functional and dysfunctional families (?) … and create, promote, facilitate and mentor ‘occupations’ …?

      I wonder, truly, in what proportion of the population it is “not happening anytime soon”?

      Reply
  7. Alan Wilkinson

     /  13th February 2017

    A woman I know grew up with serious domestic violence from both her father and stepfather yet her mother was very clever and capable. Why did she marry both these men? She says that only later in life did she realise how cuttingly her mother would speak to them and how deliberately she set out to infuriate them. Life is not simple and neither are relationships.

    Reply
    • The type of relationship you describe Alan begs the question: Is either partner and/or their children better off staying in the relationship or getting out of it?

      If the woman gets out and the father/step-father is abusive, the woman generally gets the children. The woman’s earning ability will often decrease. Hence arises the issue of maintenance and State support for the woman and children.

      Individual and family relationships certainly aren’t simple and neither is their collective affect on our communal life as a ‘society’.

      The main reason I like this Bill is because it looks at the cost of repairs and fresh starts, rather than just the cost of damage …

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  13th February 2017

        I would definitely say get out, PZ. It’s probably only a matter of time before it is inevitable anyway. And it’s destructive mentally and maybe physically for the children.

        Reply
  8. This is an area of our country’s long term problems that has to be sorted out. When I grew up in the very far North of New Zealand, it was in an environment in which I got used to be called a “white maggot” and Maori friends were treated as lacking normal qualities of good citizenship. However, when I went to Kaitaia College it was different place, we had teachers who cared about developing the best characteristics of all students. The older students regardless of ethnicity fulfilled the role of elder brother and sorted out the bullies.

    There was a clear identification with community and most of the town turned out for such things as our defence of the Moascar Cup and the annual cross country run. We were a tight group, and helped each other out, and shared the high and low points. It was not all sweetness and light, we had our Hobo who was a teacher shacked up with a young school girl from Ahipara. We all knew about it, and he was treated with scorn, his nickname was Hobo. But did we have our successes? We had a list of All Blacks that would make most communities jealous. I can name at least 7 AB’s from my time in Kaitaia all from the Monganui Sub Union.
    Now we have in Kaitaia, a reputation as Murder and Suicide Town of New Zealand and centre of the Gang and drug cultures of the failed Far North Region. That is a slogan that we from Kaitaia and the Far North do not deserve. We need to emphasise to the youth of the Far North that they are better than the slagging that the media is giving them.
    Those of us who went before them had some advantages. We had the opportunity to be taught by veterans of the Second World War and their dependants. We absorbed the disciplines they had learned in combat by some form of osmosis so that we learned the lessons needed for self-discipline and the importance of good leadership and team work. We were not actually a bunch of religious adherents, but we accepted some basic moral truths, like honour your mother, be considerate of women, watch your language in mixed company, and only a bastard would ever hit a woman or a child.

    So what is my point? We need to have a commitment in NZ to some basic norms of civilised behaviour. Do we really need extra laws regulations etc to criminalise behaviour, or do we need a commitment to some basic disciplines and values? Let us get away from greed, envy, jealousy, racism, homophobia, xenophobia and all of the other sicknesses abroad in our society. Why don’t we treat each other like we want to be treated ourselves, and how many times have we spoken before we think of the consequences of what we said?

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  13th February 2017

      because times have changed…since the 80’s …neo liberal policies,user pays ,monetise everything,greed became good,laud sharp businessmen,civic virtue became redundant ,all in the name of rampant crony capitalism and the devaluation of honesty,integrity and accountability.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  13th February 2017

        Not sure which came first in some cases. A mixture at fault in the cause of the breakdown of common shared values, courtesy & good manners, broken youths & children from broken & brutal or angry homes or relationships loss & of a wider sense of being in a shared community, & ‘good neighbourhood’ booze, drugs & violence.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  13th February 2017

          ‘firewater’….opium,religion,sport….sedate the…masses.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  13th February 2017

            I see. What should we do to fix it, do you think?

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              address inequality.

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              How will that stop domestic & other violence & some of these other issues mentioned? There are people above claiming that comfortable middle class & wealthy people are huge perpetrators of DV.

          • Blazer

             /  13th February 2017

            the underlying causes of violence are financial…whether you are a robber,thief,fraudster ,or frightened that someone with more wealth than you will win your partner .

            Reply
            • Conspiratoor

               /  13th February 2017

              You are kidding yourself if you think financial is the only cause of violence

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              it is the main cause…present your evidence it is not…you can’t actually…and ..you know it.

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              Pretty sure mefro would agree that that one is lacking in calories.

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              can you translate that please G…I must be thick.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  13th February 2017

              You’re priceless blazer. ‘The underlying causes of violence’ becomes ‘one of the main causes’. Get your shit sorted, which one is it?

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              pathetic backdown Con….present your proof that the underlying cause of violence is ..NOT ..financial…you can’t …can you?No one said only…you desperate FW.

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              get a mind of your own G..instead of mimicing itinerant,unfortunates.

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              Got a mind of my own Blazer. Understands the difference between a bald assertion like in a tweet, & a reasoned argument.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  13th February 2017

              You’re all over the place tonight blazer. What’s up? ‘the underlying cause of violence is ..NOT ..financial’

              Tell me what do you think the cause was for the violence I witnessed downtown a couple of nights ago. Young men with good jobs and a skinful of booze, full of testosterone swaggering around looking for some biffo

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              Reminds me c, I’m missing Corky sometimes.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  13th February 2017

              I think you will agree I’m a poor substitute for brother corks. But he will soon return from his well earned break to torment you again. Now how about a coherent rejoinder

            • EITHER / OR … Good OR Bad … Right OR Left …

              Its “financial” if you believe, in defiance of the human faculty to reason, that finance is something separable from everything else – something that isn’t an expression of the overall socio-econo-political ideology or ‘reigning paradigm’ of your society – something perhaps non-human …

              In fact the financial is a very base and transactional expression of humanity. It cannot be otherwise. Does money exist without Man?

              So yes, a significant underlying cause of violence is money … because of how we perceive it, permit it to enslave us and, most importantly, how we [as slaves] utilize it.

              If we used it, for instance, to fully resource our social agencies and education system to teach and facilitate and mentor especially men how to be adults instead of remaining children all their lives … How to deal with ‘thwarting’ …

              It might only take one generation … ?

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              @ c. Your brother Corks & I see eye to eye on some things & not others. As to a coherent rejoinder, imo you have hit upon two of the contributors to violence in our society, testosterone & alcohol. I believe there is a multitude of causes of the increase in this sort of behaviour in modern Western society & that they are certainly not just financial.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  13th February 2017

              @ parti. ‘a significant underlying cause of violence is money’

              Money in and of itself does not predispose to violence. It takes a cocktail of factors to come together and make a man turn on his wife. But I do agree financial stress can be a significant contributor with some folks, particularly those without the life skills to cope

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              @Con…so your evidence’ is one isolated anecdote….go to bed.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  13th February 2017

              @G, yes testosterone and alcohol can bring the caveman out in an otherwise sane young man. My brothers-in-law when they were younger case in point. Maybe it’s their warrior gene, I don’t know.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  13th February 2017

              I’ll give you one more blazer and then leave you to your little wankfest. See if you can score a hit with this one…

              The P addict is three days without sleep and has just scored again. He’s indestructible and is just itching for some poor unfortunate to cross his path. Financial?

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              @Gezza…’testosterone and alcohol’…are those compensation for not being wealthy?The ‘caveman’ days are …gone…the ideal ‘hunter/mate’ has wealth…as you should know, alcohol reduces inhibitions and repressed desire for power in some form is manifest.

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              @Con..re your P addict…the addict requires ‘money’ to maintain his state…if he is wealthy…not a prob..if he is not….!insert ‘ad hominum epithet’!

            • Conspiratoor

               /  13th February 2017

              G, can you slip that wet fish in under blazers last brain fart, I’m off to bed. Big day tomorrow. Suits are arriving and these ones wear very expensive cologne. Cheers,c

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              @Con…run you flaccid ..FW.

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              @ Blazer

              “…’testosterone and alcohol’…are those compensation for not being wealthy?The ‘caveman’ days are …gone…the ideal ‘hunter/mate’ has wealth … ”

              1st question. No. The testosterone is an inbuilt component of the male of the human species. for some peculiar & sad reason, throughout history it seems to be driver for physical battles over opinions, territory, possessions etc, as well as mates.

              2nd question, alcohol. I don’t think so. It is indulged in sometimes to excess by people of all socio-economic groups & seems to relatively cheap & easy to obtain – possibly too much so. In combination with surges of testosterone particularu in young men it has often throughout history, from what I gather, more easily prompted some consumers to resort too easily to biffo over some real or imagined slight. It also ssems to have a similar effect on some females, as we have just recently seen in Huntly.

              3. “The ‘caveman’ days are …gone…the ideal ‘hunter/mate’ has wealth … “. Nope. It’s primal instinct stuff, on both sides. Hence all the fatherless children.

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              @G…you were making a reasonable fist of it …until you got to…immaculate..conception!

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              There goes that calorific shortfall again.

            • Blazer

               /  13th February 2017

              @G…there goes a mind of your own/originalty/creativity again.I know it took you a long time to formulate your post,but…..its a…fail.

            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              Nitey night blazie.

    • To exaggerate Beejay, some of the “basic norms of civilised behaviour” back then were things like: Children [and often women too] should be seen and not heard.

      Without a safety net many women were forced to remain in abusive relationships – in the broadest and most noxious sense of the term – because aside from being socially unacceptable, solo motherhood was economically next-to-impossible …

      “Those of us who went before them had some advantages” is a monumental understatement IMHO. If one grew up before “the level playing field”, the Robber Barons and their Cut Price Sales of the family silver, before the Big Red Shed eviscerated your local shopping centre, amidst the gritty prosperity of hard-won Social Security and the hooded fantasyland of pre-Maori “Renaissance” Aotearoa, any [Pakeha] New Zealander had advantages beyond compare anyplace on Earth …

      I believe people have to be taught and shown how to “treat each other like we want to be treated ourselves” and, given the neoliberal reframing of ‘want’, whereby narcissism is encouraged and rewarded, perhaps that’s exactly what they’re doing nowadays …?

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  13th February 2017

        I don’t think that neoliberalism is the only contributor to the narcissism we see displayed so often today. Social media, education system – there are many contributors. One could argue with justification that the hippies even started or contributed to it.

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  13th February 2017

          I don’t see narcissism in my extended family at all. I see parents passing on their values and skills to their children and I would trust all of them to do right.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  13th February 2017

            Bound to have a black sheep turn up sometime. Happens in the best of families. But well done that extended family if your observations & are detailed, comprehensive and accurate. 👍

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              None on the horizon, G. Honest respectful relationships are the key I think.

        • Gezza, do you mean the ME ME MEDIA and the education system that’s all about ME zealously competing to climb over and beat all my ‘fellow’ students …?

          I use “narcissism” to describe the pervasive social more or moral attitude of our societal grouping or ‘certain demographics’ thereof … “more, more, more for me, me, me and mine, mine, mine” …

          Never mind the neighbours, never mind the community … they’re not “my” community …

          Of course this won’t apply to everyone … In the same way whole cohorts of the population missed out on feminism, whole demographics have done nothing but exemplary parenting all along – but the numbers and/or population percentage engaged in this ‘problem’ is obviously high enough to cause considerable concern …

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  14th February 2017

            “the education system that’s all about ME zealously competing to climb over and beat all my ‘fellow’ students …?”

            Hardly, PZ. That’s exactly what NZQA was about ending via a standards approach rather than normative.

            Reply
  9. Alan Wilkinson

     /  13th February 2017

    I suspect there are two opposite historic trends working out here. On the one hand there was probably more sexist domestic violence in the past since feminism and consequential campaigns have altered social tolerances and interventions.

    On the other hand there is less pressure just to earn enough to survive because of welfare and a far more affluent society. Teenagers now have far more opportunity and time to get into trouble and get drugged and boozed.

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  13th February 2017

      probably your worst post ever Al.Teenagers have student loans,high rents,minimum wages and are overwhelmed by politics that pander to the aged.I guess the solution is to get a mail order bride and hope for the..best.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  13th February 2017

        Tosh. No loan repayments – if anything it looks like free money to them. They live at home. There are minimum wages now – didn’t used to be. Some get the DPB. Party, party.

        Reply
    • Gezza

       /  13th February 2017

      “Teenagers now have far more opportunity and time to get into trouble and get drugged and boozed.”

      Too broad-brush, Al. Try again.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  13th February 2017

        No. It’s true. Teenagers in my era had to work. No dole. No DPB. No luxuries. Few cars. Fewer gadgets.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  13th February 2017

          No it’s not true. Not where I am anyway. Many teenagers in my area have jobs, a lot of them work afternoon/evening and/or weekends in village shops & cafes, and in my local NW, for example – where they learn heaps about getting on with people, good manners, being helpful, working for a living, saving (from some I’ve chatted to), looking after customers, and how a business operates. Yes they all have smartphones – in fact they don’t seem to much more than that & ear buds. Some of them might even have a cheap 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand Japanese car – they go forever.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  13th February 2017

            Damn, soz, my proof-reads are getting crappy again!
            * in fact they don’t seem to NEED much more than that & ear buds.

            Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  13th February 2017

            Those are the ones less likely to get into trouble, G. There are more opportunities for good and for bad now.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  13th February 2017

              It’s about time you gave me an uptick for something Al. I’ve given you a couple that were marginal because you at least were making an arguable point.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  13th February 2017

              Ok, despite your proof-reading I squeezed one out for your local teenagers, G.

        • Blazer

           /  14th February 2017

          I call b/s on there being no dole in your younger days ..Al….unless of course you are about 100 years old.

          Reply
    • @ Alan – I believe “feminism and consequential campaigns” have left ‘certain demographics’ [Pakeha and Maori] entirely unchanged … The message simply didn’t get through …

      I think the pressures on teenagers is greater today than it was in the days when you could get a new job next week if you wanted … No-one I know who’s on a benefit doesn’t feel the pressure of it … believe you me! A benefit is a sub-subsistence pittance …

      The five year trend is that beneficiary numbers are down … https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/#Latestbenefitfactsheetsrelease1

      It’s the self-same “affluent society” that pressurises teens (and young adults and everyone sufficiently maleable) to ‘want and acquire’, including wanting to “get out of it” and acquiring the alcohol &/or other drugs to do so …

      These are lucrative industries that our generation created or enhanced – extending hours, availability and unsupervised freedom – in order to bring ourselves “affluence” at our own childrens’ expense …

      Cock-a-Hoop!!!

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  13th February 2017

        There are certainly two streams – those who see the good opportunities and those who see only the bad ones. What to do about it?

        Reply
        • Right, yes … my glass is half empty if I don’t see the wonderful opportunities the binge-drinking, RTD, king-hit, boy racer, stay out all night and roastbusters culture has presented to the liquor industry …

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  14th February 2017

            Choice is what separates us from cattle, PZ. Don’t knock it. Learn to use it.

            Reply
            • Yeah Right … the first ethical binge-drinking culture …!!!

              I’m not knocking it Alan, you condescending &%$$#, I’m EXERCISING it!

          • “What to do about it?”

            For a start …. Let up on ourselves … Let all these labour saving devices actually save us some labour …

            Reply
  10. Pickled Possum

     /  13th February 2017

    The government is not going to back this Bill so that’s that. For now any way.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/324417/govt-won't-back-domestic-violence-bill

    There is always Mental Health day where you can get paid leave for a stressful episode of life.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_health_day

    Domestic Violence leaves many victims damaged,
    so we as a society should … Cut It Out!!

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  13th February 2017

      Don’t think anybody here disagrees with that sis. Just over why that is, and how best to achive the cut it out bit.

      Reply
  11. @ Gezza – “testosterone and alcohol” … Allow me to take up the challenge …

    Alcohol is easy. There’s no question it is financial. Its a business inextricably tied up with industrialisation, with our shift from rural, agrarian tenant farmer – slave to the land-owning gentry – to urban industrial waged worker – slave to the machine owning plutocracy.

    The fact alcohol is humanity’s oldest mind-altering disinhibitor is beside the point. Sex is even more fundamental and it is certainly an industry …

    Is testosterone separable from life and maleness? Is maleness separable from the imperative urge to mate and reproduce? Is the imperative urge the source of all work and most or all play? The reason to support oneself and one’s family? To earn a living? To run 30 metres and place a seed-shaped ball between two posts!? To dress up, look good and pursue a mate? To have an expensive wedding, preceded by stag and hen parties? To buy or build a home? Et al ad infinitum …

    Of course testosterone is financial …

    And the world’s a simple, exceedingly manipulable place indeed for those who look only through their self-tainted eyeglasses and see money as something separate from any of the above … or, perhaps worse still, see money as being the most important component of any of the above … of life itself …

    Oops! We do ………….. and hence DV ………..

    Reply
  12. Gezza

     /  13th February 2017

    “Alcohol is easy. There’s no question it is financial. Its a business inextricably tied up with industrialisation … The fact alcohol is humanity’s oldest mind-altering disinhibitor is beside the point. Sex is even more fundamental and it is certainly an industry …”

    Disagreed. Just about every society seems to find some sort of intoxicant & figure out a way to manufacture or grow it even on small, individual scale. Kava is hardly industrialised in the villages, neither are a variety of stimulating plants. I know (or knew) about 10 home brewers, organised a beer & ale tasting evening for them at work one night some years back.

    “Of course testosterone is financial …”

    Yeah, right. Tui, PZ. Now you’re just being ridiculous. Time for me to depart I think. Sleep well, have positive dreams.

    Reply
    • Exactly Gezza, manufacture or grow it on [whatever] scale and trade or ‘sell’ it …

      Just because alcohol and testosterone once existed in money-less societies doesn’t mean they have NOT been commodified in the general commodification of everything …

      I’m not being ridiculous at all …

      Go out tomorrow and try to do something ‘male’ without paying for it? Get a haircut perhaps? Have a beer? A game of golf?

      Really pushing the positive-negative divide, aren’t you …?

      Dunno about you Gezza but it ain’t like that for me.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  14th February 2017

        Male things I do
        *Feed my ducks & pookies, enjoy studying them & trying to understand how they communicate. Free, apart from cost of a loaf of grainy bread a week.
        *Cut my own hair, using electric clippers bought years ago to save money on haircuts. So, free.
        * Buy food. I don’t grow my own so I tolerate the expenditure of necessity. Costs.
        * Visit the Rest Home. Help the Rec Officer & any residents who need it. Engage them in conversation: spread humour around. Even with their memories shot to shit they all still like a laugh or a giggle. Charm the staff, mostly female. except for petrol for a 10 minute drive each way – free. In fact, I even get paid by Cookie just for telling her she looks gorgeous as usual & saying goodbye before I go home at tea time – everyone forgets the cook. Lately she’s started saying “Oh, phsawww ,.. you! Here, would you like one of these, take a couple”, & handing me a plate of the goodies she makes every day for morning & afternoon tea.
        * Yack to ma, twice a day. Dad’s going slowky downhill, she needs support. Pop round to her place & do stuff for her where I can, new lightbulbs etc. Free.
        * Walk in the nearby parks & along the stream. Free.
        * I don’t play golf. I play guitar & keyboards for relaxation, & now I am on the RH program for a monthly free concert, so practice every day. I enjoy it. Free.
        * If I want an alcoholic beverage, I just stand on the outside table & lean over the fence & give Shane shit. Result: beer. Free.

        Reply

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