The Islam obsession

Kit Slater wrote:

Now you’re off the rails.

No other minority has as its avowed aim bringing the world into line with its own religious dominance. No other minority seeks to displace democracy with theocracy. No other minority mandates death for leaving it. No other minority anywhere in the world causes so much strife. No other minority has a moral code totally incompatible with the West’s. No other minority manages the sort of cognitive capture that causes the culpable blindness affecting the media. No other minority manages to sow confusion and deception about its history, its beliefs and its goals, while not-so-discreetly bringing about its own success. No other minority manages to create distrust in every country it invades. No other minority changes forever the way we fly, or requires a total review of national security, or to build walls and fences to protect inhabitants, or has to have deradicalisation programs, or seeks to control food and alcohol production, or seeks to change marital standards, or impose its own modesty standards . . . And much, much, much more.

“Every facet of life is being eroded by Islam, but at such a glacial pace that a lot of people are simply unaware.”

Not in New Zealand – there are much greater threats to the quality of life in New Zealand.

“No other minority changes forever the way we fly, or requires a total review of national security, or to build walls and fences to protect inhabitants”

Most Mexicans aren’t Muslim. It wasn’t German Muslims kept behind the Berlin wall or the inner border.

“or seeks to change marital standards”

The Marriage Act was significantly changed here not long ago – that was strongly opposed by some.

“or seeks to control food and alcohol production”

There are extensive controls on food production in New Zealand and elsewhere in the world.And there are continual calls for more.

Prohibition and alcohol restrictions have been major issues in many countries for a long time – and alcohol is involved in far more problems than Islam in New Zealand.

If you obsess about the threat of Islam and overstate it you run the risk of ignoring other greater risks.

Take climate change for example – I don’t think you can blame that on Islam.

Far more damage done to the well being of people in the Western world is self inflicted. Poor diets and overeating is a major threat to health.

Donald Trump is potentially a bigger threat to the stability and well being of the world right now than any Iman.

I don’t agree with Islam – or any other religion, there are others in recent history that have also been oppressive. Even now the Catholic Church opposition to condoms and birth control is a major health and wellbeing issue.

I know there are serious issues caused by a small minority of Muslims, and there are growing problems in Europe in particular. But they are just some of many challenges faced in our world.

Ostracising and condemning all followers of a religion due to the actions of a few is likely to cause more problems than it solves. And it isn’t rational, it isn’t decent – and it isn’t ‘Christian’.

I have no problem with confronting and debating Islam related issues, some of them are significant threats. But they are far from the only threats we face – and the threats related to Islam won’t go away by talking up modern crusades with an apparent aim to eradicate a religion (and it’s followers).

That just doesn’t work.

Every facet of life is being eroded by Islam, but at such a glacial pace that a lot of people are simply unaware. It takes certain observational capabilities to realise what’s going on. Something a journalist should be ashamed of not possessing.

If one is too obsessed with one cause of problems and doesn’t use their observational capabilities to see that there are many other serious issues facing the world, and especially facing New Zealand, should they be ashamed?

52 Comments

  1. I believe that Islam is absolutely one of the biggest threats to Western society.

    Looking to their traditional society, in no country where Islam prevails, other than Turkey, (and only then until Erdogan), do you find true freedom of religion and expression, a civil and democratic society, secular rule of law, a true and broad middle class, an unrestricted press, equality of women, the LGBGT community or safety for unbelievers, let alone apostates. I couldn’t care less how they conduct their societies, but evidence suggests that even generations after being in the West, their integration is very limited. Ethnic and religious observance and practices such as arranged religious marriage, and the adherence to bride fetching from countries of origin is regressive. Bringing a foreign wife ignorant of the host society, one where she is reliant means subservience to her husband and isolation. The resultant family unit is unconducive to confident, outward looking participation of the mother and encourages withdrawal from the wider society and in this retreat, outward relationships and identity is restricted to similarly structured families from one’s worship and ethnic group.

    It seems skewed that our western societies, (and I’m talking Europe here), extend full liberty to Islamic religious expression and in many instances even welcome and accept parallel Sharia courts? I say there is NO place for an entirely patriarchal, highly misogynist religious parallel legal system.

    Why does the West with centuries of carefully applied secular and inclusive law and values allow an unreformed religion complete freedom to apply sexist, bigoted law in their homes, mosques and courts?

    Why have the Progressive left aligned themselves so fully with this Islamic freedom of expression is the West, when, on the face of it, nothing of the religion is a fit with progressive, inclusive liberal values?

    • Blazer

       /  February 23, 2017

      look at the causes of emigration and you will find the answers you seek.Some hints,colonialism/empire,war,destruction,death,and exploitation.

      • I don’t seek any answers to past excesses, I know them. I do think that knowledge of the past gives us the ability to be future focused and that to this end we relentlessly work to seek the best of our liberal, inclusive western society. I believe we need to insist on adherence to the inclusion and equality of all before an unprejudiced secular and civil law, before all else. I believe we should insist on the freedom of religious expression, but that in that ALL religions are given equal weight, and that all can be subject to unrestricted theocratic debate, no matter the offence taken.

        • Blazer

           /  February 23, 2017

          So imagine for a minute,you are born in say Syria,brought up muslim,learn all the tenets of the social dynamic around you and find yourself in a war zone,where friends and relatives are killed and maimed,homes demolished and destruction surrounds you.Hard to imagine a hell like that here in our country isn’t it?Seeking security and a better life is quite natural as is associating with people with similar circumstance.Human nature never changes despite the window dressing ,and politicians/corporations with their particular agendas seek to sow the seeds of discontent and friction by ramping up fear and nationalism today just as they have for centuries.After the demise of the Communist bloc,the bogeyman de jour has become ….Islam.

  2. Nelly Smickers

     /  February 23, 2017

    ‘ISLAM, the fastest growing faith in America, Africa, Asia, India, Europe, Australia…..and *a shining beacon* against the darkness of repression, segregation, intolerance and racism’

  3. What has been created in Europe is not the development of multicultural societies, but rather parallel societies. Not one European country with significant Islamic population seems able or willing to confront anything but the resultant radicalisation, militancy and terrorism aspects of unsuccessful assimilation. This is ambulnce at the bottom of the cliff stuff. So often, with regressive determination, leaders speak to nativist bigotry. Muslim leaders are ever so politely urged to condemn extremism, but the moderate Islamic voice is lost in what appears to be a sea of host left and right battling it out. Islamic “moderates” are praised like small children, when they should be called on to insist that nothing short of condemnation and calls of unity, love and tolerance are acceptable

    It seems to me there is no real desire to engage in meaningful debate. Politicians and governments seem to believe capitulation, inaction on radicalisation and failing to engage in serious discussion will result in assimilation. It won’t. The continued flow of millions of Muslims into Europe will not only change it inextricably, but it will not be for the better or the more progressive.

    • Blazer

       /  February 23, 2017

      It would appear assimilation is looking/dressing,talking like you,and holding the same beliefs…that…you do.

      • Not for the first time today, can I opine that personal attacks tend to restrict and are unconducive to discussion. Rather than extend a topic, they trivialise it. Perhaps this is the intention.

        • Unfortunately it often is. Or to divert or to trash rather than debate. To shut down arguments they don’t like.

        • Blazer

           /  February 23, 2017

          You have your ‘personal’ opinion,if critiquing that constitutes a personal attack,there is no possibility of any …dialogue.

          • I’m referencing your “It would appear assimilation is looking/dressing,talking like you,and holding the same beliefs…that…you do.’ I havae never said that, you inferred that. I’m not a sensitive sausage, nor am I perfect, but online I try to adhere to the same rules as I do in person.

      • Gezza

         /  February 23, 2017

        Assimilation in immigration terms in practice generally means adopting the prevailing / predominant customs, values, behaviours, language, & laws of the host country. People of all races & cultures can do that, and most have when they’ve immigrated to Western societies. Generally it’s the best way to avoid clashes of race & cultures. People who don’t do it can cause problems in & for the host society where refusal or unwillingness to do any of those things cause separation, isolation & conflicts.

        • Indeed, although Western Societies did not extend the same respect and regard to the societies of peoples they colonised …

          “People who don’t do it can cause problems in & for the host society where refusal or unwillingness to do any of those things cause separation, isolation & conflicts.”

          No doubt about that …

          Now we expect assimilation despite the overwhelming evidence that ‘parallelism’ and ‘enclave-ism’ is what actually takes place and largely always has, unless the immigration in question is from Britain, Canada, USA, Australia and White South Africa … who are already mostly assimilated to general ‘kaupapa pakeha’ …

          If the “Islam Obsession” is actually about NZ immigration policy the question should perhaps be “Why do we need immigrants?” and, if we do need immigrants, say for job skills shortages, where do the best skilled immigrants for the jobs in question come from?

          Clearly there is more to immigration policy than this. Enough, in my opinion, for a Royal Commission or other form of enquiry …?

          Fat chance of that … since about the last thing the ‘Deep State’ does is enquire into itself …

          • Gezza

             /  February 23, 2017

            @ PZ
            “the overwhelming evidence that ‘parallelism’ and ‘enclave-ism’ is what actually takes place and largely always has”

            is actually evidence that in by far the majority of situations voluntary immigrants, even from other cultures, have actually wanted to, and do, adapt & assimilate into Western societies very quickly. Yes you get Chinatowns, & Places where particular immigrant groups form the main part of the population, & they add colour & flair, & even modify the flavour of the place, but generally most immigrants try to fit in as quickly as possible & their kids are as American, or Kiwi, or Pommy, as you can get.

            People currently want to immigrate to those Western countries that are successful, wealthy (in comparison) well-governed, generally tolerant, free, & peaceful societies not riven by wars, abject poverty, or cultural clashes & ethnic strife, which offer them opportunities for a better life.

            Colonialism is a past sin. Nobody denies it happened & it no longer does. I’ve moved on. Genuine & worthwhile progress is being made all the time to redress the wrongs done to Maori by early settler governments. There will always be some for whom it is never enough. They are a vocal minority & they have a place, because they sometimes do ensure an unrecognised wrong gets redressed.

            NZ’s immigration policy is already based on the questions you pose above. It just needs tweaking & more investment, somehow, by either industry and/ or goverment, in skills development by NZ citizens, imo.

            ‘Multiculturalism’ is the cause of the mainly religious & ethnic cultural clashes being seen in Europe. It encourages separatism among immigrants determined to preserve & impose their own cultural mores on the country they have moved to. As so you so consistently note, the problems that causes are epitomised by what happened to Maori. So, we shouldn’t be so foolish as to allow it to happen to the nation state we have created, imo.

            • Fair comments all Gezza … Which is not to say I agree with them all.

              Essentially what I’m hearing you and most others on here say is that the more ‘assimilation’ works, the more multiculturalism inversely fails … How can it be otherwise?

              Enclaves are everywhere: Dominion Road, Auckland, for instance. It is wall-to-wall [recent] immigrant Ethnic Eateries and Ethnic Shops … they may not even be all the same ethnicity but the place is still [essentially] an enclave … an enclave of immigrants …

              Personally I don’t think ‘multiculturalism’ is the cause of mainly religious & ethnic cultural clashes in Europe. I believe the cause is ‘refugee-ism’, which is a somewhat different thing …

              But what is it that has made borders so permeable to immigration, populations so mobile and countries so afraid or unable to choose culturally appropriate immigrants? This is a binary-choice question –

              A) Political Correctness …?
              Or
              B) Globalisation …?
              Or
              C) Both …?

            • Gezza

               /  February 23, 2017

              Your choices are insuffient as your questions address different issues PZ. I’ll attempt some answers.
              ……..
              What has made borders so permeable to immigration?
              A) Political Correctness …? No. Removal of racist migrant selection policies in favour of taking migrants from anywhere if they can speak the host country language and have skills needed
              Or
              B) Globalisation …? Partly, in tandem with skills-based rather than race-based selection policies. It means countries recruit skilled migrants from everywhere, but without necessarily establishing whether someone will be ‘a good fit’. By far the majority are – because otherwise they wouldn’t apply.
              Or
              C) Both …? See above.
              ……..
              Why are populations so mobile?
              D more people in more countries are more skilled & willing to use their skills to seek a better, more prosperous life and opportunities for themselves elsewhere .

              E) refugees are created in other countries where they are persecuted or forced to flee war zones.

              F) technology & the internet extend to even poor villages in deepest Africa & let people see how good things are in developed countries.

              G) piss poor often tribal based governance & lack of opportunities in home countries & ignorance creates huge numbers of people in poor countries who think all they need to do is get in to Western countries & they will easily get jobs & become rich, get houses, become famous footballers, wealthy traders, aircraft designers etc.

              H) networks of criminals & shysters exist to fool & encourage these people to attempt to do so illegally.
              ……..
              … and countries so afraid or unable to choose culturally appropriate immigrants? This is a binary-choice
              A) Political Correctness – Being unable to select out people who will not be able to assimilate into their host societies. This comes from the UN declaration of human rights provisions not allowing discrimination on grounds of beliefs or customs that are incompatible.

              I) Insufficient spending on border control. Being unable to prevent illegal migrants & economic refugees from entering their countries without permission or visas.

  4. Meanwhile in Godzone: Police investigating shooting incident in Whangarei

    At approximately 10:30pm last night Police were called to a Clark Road address in Kamo, Whangarei after receiving reports of a shooting.

    Police have established five people have suffered firearms related injuries.

    All five people were taken to Whangarei Hospital with serious injuries.

    Three of the injured have had surgery at Whangarei Hospital overnight while another is awaiting surgery.

    The fifth person has been flown to Auckland Hospital where they are currently undergoing surgery.

    • Nelly Smickers

       /  February 23, 2017

      Once again the the *Police Press Release* does not provide any details as to the Race or Ethnicity of the alleged offenders. From that, I suppose we can only assume they were either Maoris or Muslims ❓

      • We should assume nothing without facts.

        • Nelly Smickers

           /  February 23, 2017

          Yes, fair enuff as well PG ❗ Listening to talk-back this morning, further details are now emerging…..

          • Anonymous Coward

             /  February 23, 2017

            Sounds like it was a bit of a stand off, they could well be Mexicans.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  February 23, 2017

          A shootout between vehicles at a gang house, the Herald reports. No surprise to the neighbours or anyone else.

        • Gezza

           /  February 23, 2017

          “We should assume nothing without facts.”
          Why did you post that news report in a thread about ‘the islam obsession’ Pete?

      • @ Nelly – When New Zealanders of European or Pakeha descent commit crimes, are they identified ethnically …?

        Fictional example “Today a white NZ man, described as being very “Kiwi looking” held four people hostage in a house in Kingsingtown …”

        “Mr Slimeball, a pakeha NZer and CEO, embezzled $5.1 million from unsuspecting investors …”

        We White Folks sure have a hankering to know if crims are brown or Middle Eastern though, don’t we? We don’t really want News, we want Bias Confirmation …

        Meantime the really BIG financial crimes are committed, mostly by pakeha, under cloaks of legitimacy …

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  February 23, 2017

          No, we want to know if the money being spent to reduce Maori crime is working.

          • And that the money not being spent to reduce corporate crime is continuing to NOT BE SPENT!

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  February 23, 2017

              Fortunately most corporates are honest, PZ.

            • Yes? Perhaps only because the taxman keeps them so Alan?

              But seriously, is an honest operator in a corrupted system actually honest …?

        • Nelly Smickers

           /  February 23, 2017

          To be honest PartiZ, I only raised the question as I was a little confused as to why PG posted the Police Media Release under the heading *The Islam obsession*….I thought he may have known something that others didn’t.

          • Yes, acknowledged Nelly … there is an activity perhaps best named “thread wandering” which occurs along with occasional ‘hijacking’ …?

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  February 23, 2017

      At this stage no further information is available.

      ENDS

      That’s all we’re telling you lot.

  5. Brown

     /  February 23, 2017

    “We should assume nothing without facts. …”

    If you don’t like those facts we have others . We frequently get fed what the state wants us to digest – its not always reliable food.

    • I’d go further Brown. Short of quality investigative journalism which, bizarrely, Righties tend to bawk and rail against when presented with, we ONLY get fed what the state wants us to digest.

  6. Gezza

     /  February 23, 2017

    “bawk” ? 😳

    • Really Gezza … I mean … Really!?

      I know, let’s refer it to Kitty …

      Alternatively, new word # 87, a combination of balk and hawk …?

      • Gezza

         /  February 23, 2017

        Well, if you can find me a definition I’d be happy to learn it because to me it was just a wotisiter. If it doesn’t already exist as a word, & it’s meaning is to be to both balk & hawk, it’s not going to be much use to people in most situations as those things are two different concepts & people will mostly just probably go “wtf? Why not use ‘balk’ and ‘hawk’ where the meaning of both is clear?”

  7. MaureenW

     /  February 23, 2017

    What a relief!!! Beating women is “Step 3” in relationship differences between Muslim men and women.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11806187

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  February 23, 2017

      Luckily they didn’t get on to penalties for unfaithfulness. But it illustrates the dangers of a religion that can mutate from reasonable to horrific at the whim of the preacher.

      • MaureenW

         /  February 23, 2017

        Don’t worry about unfaithfulness, suspected unfaithfulness is an extinction level event.

    • Anonymous Coward

       /  February 23, 2017

      At least they get taken out for dinner before a beating on the car ride home.

    • Anonymous Coward

       /  February 23, 2017

      NZ women have to cook his dinner and then watch it burn on the stove before he comes home to give her a beating

    • Maureen, do you reckon you’d drive a man to stage 3 ???😻😻😻😻😻😻

      • MaureenW

         /  February 23, 2017

        Not any man I know Traveller – the only men I know of who physically attack women are insecure cowards looking for an easy target.