Does NZ need better Muslim ‘assimilation’ processes?

A vocal critic of Islam has said that New Zealand needs Muslim assimilation centres, processes and policies.

Newstalk ZB: No need for ‘assimilation centres’, says Islamic Women’s Council

One of the world’s most prominent critics of Islam, Dutch-American activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali, made the suggestion during an interview with Newstalk ZB yesterday.

“Before you get people in from Muslim countries, whether through the [refugee] resettlement process or through some other immigration process, you must have assimilation programmes in place,” she said.

“If free societies don’t do that, if they don’t have those assimilation policies in place, then they shouldn’t bring in people because they are only asking for instability.”

How much does she know about New Zealand? We don’t have instability here. We also don’t have assimilation processes for any other religious or ethnic groups.

However Islamic Women’s Council spokeswoman Anjum Rahman said migrants already fit on to New Zealand well.

She said New Zealand has good systems in place, and volunteers also work behind the scenes to help new migrants settle in.

“Perhaps you should visit the refugee centre in Mangere and see the programmes that are already in place in New Zealand.”

I don’t know if Ali has been to New Zealand. Stuff reports that she is due to visit next month: Controversial author Ayaan Hirsi Ali says New Zealand shouldn’t feel immune from the extremes of ‘radical Islam’

No country is immune from the extremes of radical anything.

Dr Zain Ali of Auckland University’s Islamic Studies Research Unit told the NZ Herald most NZ Muslims were either:

  • NZ-born (26 per cent)
  • or came from the Indian subcontinent (27 per cent)
  • or Fiji and other Pacific islands (21 per cent),

so they were already used to living in non-Muslim-majority countries and did not need “assimilation centres”.

That’s 74% either born here or from non-Muslim majority countries.

He suggested that schools should teach all students about “civics” including New Zealand history, culture and values.

Some Kiwi adults might also benefit from learning more about New Zealand history, culture and values.

New Zealand has a history of welcoming a diverse range of visitors and immigrants.

I wouldn’t like it for myself so I would baulk and trying to force ‘assimilation’ into Remuera culture, or Westie culture, or Otara culture, or East Coast culture, or any of the cultural variations we have here.

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57 Comments

  1. Nelly Smickers

     /  March 6, 2017

    “No need for assimilation centers”, says *Islamic Women’s Council* spokeswoman Anjum Rahman, “…..migrants already fit in well” LOL!!

    • Corky

       /  March 6, 2017

      The *Islamic Women’s Council* is run by the main New Zealand Islamic organisation, whom coincidently happen to be men. So who’s the parrot, and who’s the cage owner?

      • Who’s the parrot indeed. You?

        As far as I’m aware the Islamic Women’s Council is run by women. They have a spokeswoman.

        Do you know anything different specifically?

        • Corky

           /  March 6, 2017

          They are an affiliation. One thing I thought you may have come across by now is this:
          ‘women and animals usually share the same status in many Islamic countries. Women having their own voice is anathema. I will try to find the relevant info for you.

          • That says nothing about who runs the NZ Women’s Islamic Association.

            • Corky

               /  March 6, 2017

              It says everything in my opinion.

              ‘No need for ‘assimilation centres’, says Islamic Women’s Council’

              That sounds mighty male, and un nurturing to me. However, that’s not important. The main point is prove the affiliation, and then extrapolate using past and future utterances.

            • Corky

               /  March 6, 2017

              1990 -Establishment of Islamic National Women’s Council under the umbrella of FIANZ

              Crikey, this list gives me the heeby-gee-bees.

              http://www.fianz.co.nz/developments. Don’t go there, Kit. It will hurt your Western sensibilities.

        • The Islamic Women’s Council is run on Islamic principles. Let’s see what Muslims have to say about that.

          “In Islam, women are entrusted to men.” Turkey’s president Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

          “Women can never equal men. They are fit only to deliver children. Women cannot withstand crisis situations.” Sunni leader Kanthapuram A P Aboobacker Musliar, the chief of All India Sunni Jamiyyathul Ulama

          “Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” — Qur’an 4:34

          “Your women are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth as you will” (2:223).

          • Blazer

             /  March 6, 2017

            regular as clockwork…..I could supply selective quotes from the bible ,about death,violence and so on.Talk about …obsession.

        • Nelly Smickers

           /  March 6, 2017

          The NZ Islamic Women’s Council *principles, objectives and activities* state, ‘….the group is to *embrace Islam as a complete way of life* and be guided by the Qur’an and the Prophet Mohammad”

          • Blazer

             /  March 6, 2017

            substitute the word Islam,for America.Comprenez.

    • Kevin

       /  March 6, 2017

      Somebody left their washing behind.

  2. Corky

     /  March 6, 2017

    ”How much does she know about New Zealand? We don’t have instability here. We also don’t have assimilation processes for any other religious or ethnic groups.”

    She doesn’t need to know anything about New Zealand. All she needs to understand is Muslim modus operandi.

    But you are right, we have no instability here.The reason for that, as pointed out before, is our Muslim population isn’t near the tipping point of radicalism- the magic 5% of the population mark.

    When that happens enclaves form, agitators start demanding( its happening already) and moderate Muslim are given a stark choice….you are either Muslim, or an Infidel loving apostate, take your pick.

    You have ample evidence as to what happens when people go against Islam. And by my reckoning we already have 4000 Muslims in this country who sympathise with jihad

    I will be interest in how much air time our media give Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Little is my guess. Such a brave person deserves more.

    • Blazer

       /  March 6, 2017

      she is an athiest Corky….so will not make it to…..Heaven.

      • Corky

         /  March 6, 2017

        Life was never meant to be fair, Blazer.

  3. Assimilation of Muslims with the host society is not required. The host society must assimilate with Islam.

    Let’s hear it from the Muslims:

    “There are no aspects of life that Islam does not encompass, so the integrationist notion of embracing Western political culture while somehow clinging on to Islam is the very antithesis of Islam.” Open Letter from Hizb ut-Tahrir.

    “We must realise that we are part of the global Muslim Ummah and not British Muslims or Western Muslims.” Ibid.

    “Assimilation is a crime against humanity…” Turkey’s AKP Prime Minister Erdogan.

    Muslims in the diaspora must not accept “the belief that all religions are equally valid in the sight of the Creator…[this is] the first sign of religious assimilation” Ali Kettani, who has served as a Saudi representative to guide diaspora communities.

    • ” The host society must assimilate with Islam.”

      Nothing like this in New Zealand at all.

      • Gezza

         /  March 6, 2017

        Not enough of them here yet, is all.

      • You’re being fooled by Islam’s glacial pace of progress which is unconstrained by time. But unlike Europe, it is constrained by numbers as Corky and Gezza rightly point out. This is why you’re not seeing similar conditions here of the incremental introduction of Islamic principles such as sharia finance, courts and law, and the quashing of criticism by every available legal means.

        • Blazer

           /  March 6, 2017

          You make Enoch Powell seem like a …liberal.

  4. Gezza

     /  March 6, 2017
  5. Missy

     /  March 6, 2017

    This is from Australia, an interesting read. Take heed, statistically speaking it is highly likely this attitude will be amongst NZ Muslims as well.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4260898/Muslim-Tanveer-Ahmed-hits-Yassmin-Abdel-Magied.html

  6. Brown

     /  March 6, 2017

    One day Pete, probably not too far in the future, some one will say, “I told you so”. The alternative is that you will berate people who take a stand and prevent Islamic dominance while again completely missing the point when those on the side of western civilisation prevail. One side will win and Islam is prepared to play a long game.

  7. There are a few words in this issue that are important like Islam, jihad, sharia, Sunni, Shia, Wahhabi, Koran, Sunna, Hadith
    Wahabi
    a member of a strictly orthodox Sunni Muslim sect founded by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703–92). It advocates a return to the early Islam of the Koran and Sunna, rejecting later innovations; the sect is still the predominant religious force in Saudi Arabia.

    Sunnah (sunnah, سنة, Arabic: [sunna], plural سنن sunan [sunan]) is the verbally transmitted record of the teachings, deeds and sayings, silent permissions (or disapprovals) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, as well as various reports about Muhammad’s companions.

    Hadith.A hadith is one of various reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The term comes from Arabic meaning a “report”,

    Koran.The sacred text of Islam, divided into 114 chapters, or suras: revered as the word of God, dictated to Muhammad by the archangel Gabriel, and accepted as the foundation of Islamic law, religion, culture, and politics.

    Sunni:The tradition in this case refers to practices based on what the Prophet Muhammad said, did, agreed to or condemned. All Muslims are guided by the Sunnah, but Sunnis stress its primacy.

    Shia.Shia Muslims believe that just as a prophet is appointed by God alone, only God has the prerogative to appoint the successor to his prophet. They believe God chose Ali to be Muhammad’s successor, infallible, the first caliph (khalifa, head of state) of Islam.

    Jihad. a struggle or fight against the enemies of Islam.
    “he declared a jihad against the infidels”
    the spiritual struggle within oneself against sin.

    SHARIA. Sharia, Sharia law, or Islamic law (Arabic: شريعة‎‎ (IPA: [ʃaˈriːʕa])) is the religious law forming part of the Islamic tradition. It is derived from the religious precepts of Islam, particularly the Quran and the Hadith.

    ISLAM. Muslims believe that Islam is the original, complete and universal version of a primordial faith that was revealed many times before through prophets including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. As for the Quran, Muslims consider it to be the unaltered and final revelation of God. The five bases of the Islamic faith: shahada (confession of faith), salat (prayer), zakat (almsgiving), sawm (fasting, especially during the month of Ramadan), and hajj (the pilgrimage to Mecca).

    The real problem with the assimilation of Muslims into a Western Democracy can be found in the definition above of the Koran. To a Muslim, Islam is not just a religion it is wider in scope as the Koran is the final word of God as it is the final word accepted as the foundation of Islamic law, religion, culture, and politics. So it is as much a statement on politics and culture as a religious faith and law. There in lies the conflict for assimilation. It is not possible to be a strict Muslim yet accept cultural mores, laws, and political precepts that are not cpntained in the Koran, Sunnah, Sharia and Hadith.

  8. Sorry about the extra “P’s” in the last sentence. I am taking diuretics have and have a problem with excess “P’s”!

  9. Zedd

     /  March 6, 2017

    NZ is NOT a Christians only nation, even though they still have ‘the prayer’ at the start of parliament.. (so much for the separation of church & state).. there are also Buddhists, Rastafarians, Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians etc…
    oh yes & Muslims too.. ‘Allahu Akbar’ 🙂

    • Brown

       /  March 7, 2017

      No, we are not a Christian nation but our conduct comes from that tradition. It is arguably vastly superior to Islam so the question is whether we swap one for the other. Islam is not interested in an accommodation long term and you could say it does not play well with others. Allahu snack bar.

      • “It is arguably vastly superior to Islam”

        Hard to disagree with this given that Christianity, for all its faults and foibles, is fundamentally based on concepts of love and forgiveness, whereas Islam, for all its assertions of peaceful intent, is built on foundations of hatred and vengeance.

        “does not play well with others”
        — is there a single recorded instance in all history of Islam “playing well with others”, I wonder?

        • Gezza

           /  March 8, 2017

          I am opposed to Islam, but it is not built on venegance. In fact the behaviour of Christians throughout the ages has demonstrated more venegence-exacting than Islam. However there are individuals who commit atrocities when exacting their personal acts of individual or group venegance & who claim those acts are, in effect, defending Islam, thus in their minds Islamically legtimising them.

          Islam is, however, a heavily prescriptive supremacist ideology & Sharia law often conflicts with Western ideas of human rights, laws, & justice.

          • I am opposed to Islam, but it is not built on venegance.

            Really? Islam is revanchist, intent on reclaiming lost territory at any cost, for which vengeance is highly correlated. This explains its conflict with Israel outright. Much of Europe – Andalusia, the Visegrád states, Austria, Greece – fears this sort of vengeance. Christianity offers no such danger to any country anywhere. Europe’s heroes, Martel, Sobiesky, Scanderberg, were defending Europe from Islam’s predations. The Crusades were a defensive force against Islam’s vicious conquests of Christian lands. Historical revisionism and Islam’s rewriting of its own history have a lot to answer for in this sort of misunderstanding.

            The “venegence-exacting” nature of Christianity, either independently or in comparison with Islam, needs very careful support to avoid tu quoque fallacies. I’d be interested to see your evidence and whether it sustains close examination.

            “…individuals who commit atrocities…& who claim those acts are, in effect, defending Islam, thus in their minds Islamically legtimising them.” It should be noted that Islam’s scriptural sources legitimises any and all atrocities in its name and its defence.

            But your last paragraph stands as a beacon of comprehension of what the West faces. It should be inscribed on the lintel of every court, church and mosque door.

        • — is there a single recorded instance in all history of Islam “playing well with others”, I wonder?
          Apart from the fact that ‘Islam’ is many different things, I’m sure there are many examples. Like in New Zealand. And in Fiji (where many of the Muslims in New Zealand have come from). In fact most Muslims are no more problem than most non-Muslims.

          “Christianity, for all its faults and foibles, is fundamentally based on concepts of love and forgiveness”

          There are many examples of Christianity being practiced contrary to this. But most Christians today are fundamentally good people.

          It’s nonsense to argue which religion is ‘superior’ – believers are obviously going to be biased. Many people think religion is vastly superior to atheism but beliefs like that do not make them superior – in fact superiority bragging seems anti-Christian to me.

          If Christians were so big on ‘love’ then they would at least accept religious neighbours as having as much right to peacefully believe and exist as themselves.

          Promoting what is in effect religious war is one of the biggest problems the world has, and it’s not just a few Muslims that are preaching division and hate.

          • I’m sure there are many examples. Like in New Zealand.

            It’s numbers, Pete. The “Meccan period” Islam that we have in NZ can’t really be counted. When Muslims are out-numbered and cannot win a physical confrontation with unbelievers, they are commanded to promote peace and preach a message of tolerance. As surah 109:16 says, “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion”. But this was abrogated by the many violent Medinan surahs such as surah 22. When there are sufficient Muslims and resources to defend the Islamic community from attacks, persecution or criticism, they are called to fight unbelievers who pose a physical or intellectual threat to Islam.

            “Christianity…is fundamentally based on concepts of love and forgiveness”
            It’s important to note that this principle applies to others regardless of their religion. Not so with Islam, which splits the world into Muslims and infidels, and to the latter no charitable obligations apply.

            “It’s nonsense to argue which religion is ‘superior’”
            This is no longer a Christian attribute. The supersessionist position of Islam, on the other hand, because Muhammad is the last and final prophet and Allah has perfected religion for all humanity, means that Muslims believe Islam is emphatically superior. This creates bonds stronger than patriotism or nationalism, causing rejection of these, and making democratic influence or legal control untenable.

            “If Christians were so big on ‘love’…” hasn’t worked for them too well in the Middle East where they accepted their religious neighbours with equanimity and are being killed for it.

            • Corky

               /  March 8, 2017

              Revanchism (from French: revanche, “revenge”) is the political manifestation of the will to reverse territorial losses incurred by a country, often following a war or social movement.

              Truly, you are a wordsmith, Kit.

  10. I prefer to think that NZ’s ethics are Christian in origin and certainly that ethic has been accepted by our tangata whenua even within Ratana that absorbed some of the symbols of Islam (Star and Crescent). Christianity is older than Islam but the Jewish religion is far older. and traces its history back to Moses and King David and further. The real problem with Islam is that it relies on the words of one man who claims divine intervention and credentials through Archangel Gabriel. That is where I have to part way with Islamic Doctrine as I have n belief in angels of any type, they are a figment of imagination created to answer the unknowns of life in this Universe.

    • Blazer

       /  March 7, 2017

      Religion?…Brian Tamaki is a great advertisement for ….atheism.

    • Well put, BJ, and it’s worth applying Muslims’ belief to what you say. “The words of one man” as depicted in the Koran are in fact the actual words of Allah spoken through the voice of the Archangel Gabriel to Muhammad over a period of 23 years, who repeated them verbatim, since he was illiterate, to scribes. As Allah said, “This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off [evil].” (Surah 2:2). Thus, the Koran carries the actual words of Allah and cannot be changed or challenged, only interpreted. The rules, prescriptions and demands laid out from 609 to 632 are the foundations for Muslims’ unquestionable morality of today.

      It would better, perhaps, to consider Gabriel not so much a “figment of imagination” but as a device and process invented by Muhammad to unify and cement ties between warring tribes with a collectively revered transcendent entity, that of a revised Jewish/Christian god.

      There is thus a sharp contrast between the Koran and the Christian belief of the Bible’s divinely-inspired but unquestionably human authorship which can be changed, challenged and interpreted at will. It has allowed for the development of Western society to such an extent that it leads the world in civilisational values. In turn, this causes huge resentment from Muslims who consider Islamic values and societies superior. The current Islamic resurgence which began arguably with the Egyptians Sayyid Qutb and Hassan al-Banna, active through the middle of last century, seeks to reverse this Western cultural dominance and replace it with Islamic control. The inflexibility of this control, and its ever-present conflict with the appeal of modern Western society’s freedoms, is Islam’s greatest fault-line.

      • I agree completely and could not have put it better. I have been looking at “BIG THINK” that is a good source of considered expertise on this problem. For example Jamie Wheal a neurologist explains the mechanisms of the brain when itsstate is altered that could explain the mechanism by which the illiterate but highly intelligent warlord Mohammed received the information that formed the basis of the Koran and the Islamic Ideology It is at
        http://bigthink.com/videos/jamie-wheal-on-ecstatic-brains.
        The next area is athttp://bigthink.com/playlists/understanding-isis. This is Salman Rushdie about ISIS and what it actually is.
        The third area is at http://bigthink.com/playlists/understanding-isis. This is where
        Author and peace activist Maajid Nawaz argues that we too often treat radical Islam with kid gloves. While our good intentions make us sensitive to the Muslim faith, and keep us from labelling its violent members as radical practitioners, it does society a disservice. He is particularly scathing of Obama’s approach, where he refuses to name Islamic Terrorism. This is actually a very important statement about ISIS from a practising Muslim who was imprisoned and tortured for his opposition to Islamic Terrorism. Highly recommended.

  11. Blazer

     /  March 7, 2017

    ‘There is thus a sharp contrast between the Koran and the Christian belief of the Bible’s divinely-inspired but unquestionably human authorship which can be changed, challenged and interpreted at will. It has allowed for the development of Western society to such an extent that it leads the world in civilisational values. In turn, this causes huge resentment from Muslims ‘……your opinion masquerading as fact…as usual…..Are you trying to say all Christian denominations are really singing from the same song sheet?The secular world is the civilised …world.

    • I very rarely express opinions. The only one above was “Well put, BJ”. I express facts, observations, verifiable and falsifiable hypotheses, testable conclusions, logical and sometimes necessarily reductive reasoning, and widely-supported generalisations with empirical evidence. What do we get from you, Blazer, other than hostile, unreasoned, unsupported knee-jerk responses which add nothing, no facts, no evidence, not one jot or tittle, to sensible debate?

      • Blazer

         /  March 7, 2017

        ‘widely-supported generalisations ‘……take up…comedy…

  12. I do dislike the use of ‘assimilate’ when clearly ‘integrate’ is meant; it reminds me of The Borg and that Dr Who lot whose name escapes me. It is clear that Muslims demand assimilation from others whereas others encourage integration from Muslims. One does not require a PhD in Sociology to see that it will end in tears.

    I am minded of the Imam who was asked how Islam justified the death sentence for apostasy. His reply? “If we didn’t threaten to kill them they would all leave and there would be no Islam”. Monty Python eat your heart out. It would be funny if it were not so frightening. It does illustrate how Muslims are in a way the greatest of all Islam’s victims.

    I do hope this lovely country opens its eyes to what is happening elsewhere and makes the effort to avoid Islam’s moral blackmail trap. It is not a religion, in the sense of a spiritual belief shared by free-thinking individuals. It is a fascist collective that uses religion as a club to beat its brainwashed serfs into submission, and also as a Trojan Horse to insinuate itself into societies that it seeks to conquer. I believe there was an old guy on the beach who told the Trojans to burn the wooden horse. I bet they wish they’d listened to him.

    • Corky

       /  March 7, 2017

      Cybermen…they scare the shite out of me.

      • Gezza

         /  March 8, 2017

        What a wuss. I’d eat Cybermen for breakfast, & then follow up with Daleks on toast – those guys are so useless with their hands they don’t even have any. I dunno how they ever built anything. All it ever was with them was “exterminate, exterminate”, but they couldn’t even get up steps – until some unhinged scriptwriter decided they could fly. 🙄

        • Corky

           /  March 8, 2017

          Yes, I may have to concede, where the Cybermen are concerned, I’m a wuss.

  13. What a pleasure it has been discovering this website and the stimulating debate that it seems to foster. I have long since given up all hope of ever getting a comment published on Stuff that does not parrot the diktats of the witless, uncritical Left. As someone once noted of grandfather clocks, they only work by swinging from one side to the other. Vibrant debate consists of opposing views, sufficiently eloquently put to make the other side at least question their standpoint a little. Thank you all.

    PS: I tried Whaleoil but was banned for life without warning or explanation for posting this: “”Reign? Surely not?” in jocular response to its misuse for ‘rein’, in a context where the one being ‘reined in’ was behaving like a jumped-up petty monarch. I actually thought it was rather witty. Seems it was not judged so.

    While trying to discover what rule I had so flagrantly and disgustingly broken I gave up after the ninth page of 48 point bold caps listing all the awful things that would happen to me if I dared to upset His Highness. It seems one of my manifold crimes was having the gall to write to him personally, politely asking why I had been banned. The discovery of his ‘Corridor of Selfies’ put it all in perspective and I decided the banning was in truth a blessing.

    • Gezza

       /  March 8, 2017

      Nicely said.

    • Corky

       /  March 8, 2017

      What’s your IQ if I may ask?

    • Nelly Smickers

       /  March 8, 2017

      @thesailor

      Join the club *Sailor*…even Wayne copped a life-ban at *WO* for some unknown reason 😡

      Luckily, we do get *SB* commenting on YNZ fairly regularly, so I was able to get her to re-post the recipe for her mum’s *Lebo Salad Dressing* here…. it’s really really fab.

  14. MaureenW

     /  March 8, 2017

    Here’s a post from the Conservative blog Pickering Post – I agree with the sentiments expressed. It will be interesting to see how Bill English flip-flops on this one.
    http://pickeringpost.com/story/elections-to-be-won-and-lost-over-islam/6967