Open Forum – Saturday

11 March 2017

Facebook: NZ politics/media+

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74 Comments

  1. Alan Wilkinson

     /  March 11, 2017

    What happened to Gezza? Do we need to send out a search party? Did his FiP get blown away? Has his LF carried him off? Or his pavers laid his back low? Have the ducks and pukes washed away? Is North Welly still there? The silence is deafening.

    Reply
    • Nelly Smickers

       /  March 11, 2017

      I blame *Mavis* :mrgreen:

      Reply
      • Pickled Possum

         /  March 11, 2017

        Heya Nells Who The Fuck Is Mavis????

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  March 11, 2017

          She hangs out at the retirement home, Possum. I think she’s G’s favourite carer or nurse.

          Reply
    • Pickled Possum

       /  March 11, 2017

      Jez Al I am worried now if your worried then there must be some thing Up or maybe Down.
      Maybe his LF has carried him away … Lucky him eh,
      or maybe his FiP just gave up the ghost, got tired of being called a FiP.
      I miss his cheeky little viking face and his pointy little stick thingy and his closet full of emojis
      Maybe it wasn’t the Space Station that flew over his whare
      jez Al …. yes I am a worry wart today.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  March 11, 2017

        Gezza reappeared, Possum. I think he’s been smoking DDT though.

        Reply
  2. Measures of rising inequality in Aotearoa New Zealand and globally …

    http://www.top.org.nz/key_indicators_of_new_zealand_s_inequality_eruption

    “Images of sorrow … Pictures of delight …
    Things that go to make up a Life … ”

    – Home By The Sea … Genesis

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  March 11, 2017

      From The TOP Party; how astonishing. Vote for them, and all will be gas and gaiters.He must know that most people won’t check the sources for accuracy and correct reading of stats.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  March 11, 2017

        We have had so little less than the year to date average rainfall over a couple of days that it might as well be that amount. 90mm in the rain gauge this morning and another 10 in about an hour. The amount so far is 6x the average.I couldn’t put the bird food out at the usual time, it would have been a slushy mess.

        Reply
      • Nelly Smickers

         /  March 11, 2017

        If, like me, your *totally sick* of this wet weather, here’s a real *nifty idea* that I learnt from Wayne’s mum 😄

        When using your *Clothes Dryer*, just biff a *nice clean dry towel* in with the rest of the wet washing. Everything comes out beautifully dry in about half the time ❗

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  March 11, 2017

          Just make sure the dry one is your wife’s. Dunno about your hints, Nelly. I tried the shaving cream on the makeup-stained towel and it didn’t shift it at all.

          Reply
          • Nelly Smickers

             /  March 11, 2017

            Well to be honest Al, I find that very strange…..worked every time on Wayne’s pyjama pants.

            Reply
            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              Am I in breach of the moderation rules by upticking that one?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  March 11, 2017

              Wouldn’t it be easier just to take them off, Nelly?

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  March 11, 2017

          My dryer’s a Haier and works fairly fast anyway. It doesn’t even take a whole cycle, it’s brilliant. There’s just me, so it doesn’t take long….what did people DO before these were invented ???

          I have always been fussy about keeping mine clean since I discovered with the first one that it slowed it down-it was taking forever to dry things-and when I saw a house going up (a horrible sight) and heard that it was because the owner didn’t clean the dryer filter, it’s made me really, really fussy. It’s more by good luck than anything else that it hasn’t happened to more of us !

          Reply
    • Conspiratoor

       /  March 11, 2017

      Sounds like the gareth party is your newly discovered reality parti. Is this the same potty mouth who promises a ‘kinder, gentler politics with the focus on policy not nastiness’

      But whose tweets suggest he’s just a bag of piss and wind…

      To Ross Marks: “do your homework dickhead, TM [TradeMe] is less than 1/4 of my wealth.”
      To Andrew Riddell: “if you’d read the book you’d know why dropkick. Typical tall poppy crap for a kiwi nobody.”
      To Bryce Pearce: “yeah let’s not talk about the arguments, let’s just be bitchy. Jesus you’re a w***er.”
      To Locrates: “Abuse is the lowest form of intellect. Try counselling.”
      To Dermott Renner: “Sure, some of the top 20% don’t give a damn. Charming model for your children.” “Boy, some nutters out there.”
      On ACT’s Dr Jamie Whyte: “He’s against fairness. He’s a moron like all libertarians.”
      To Thomas Mead: “Try arguing & u better know what you’re talking about. I do & there’s no time here for fools.”

      Your link takes the unsuspecting to his website. He needs to update his inequality graphs though. There is later data available and hey what do you know …inequality after being relatively stable for 25 years may in fact be falling. Ain’t trickle down a wonderful thing

      Reply
      • Conspiratoor darling … old mate … I’ll go wherever people are having an interesting discussion … regardless of shit people making nasty comments about others …

        At least you can’t accuse Morgan of being highly selective in his stats … not after your own example … P80/P20 is only one register of inequality and it’s one that ‘flattens’ the statistical and visual impact of it …

        Reply
        • Conspiratoor

           /  March 11, 2017

          Fairy Nuf parti, I get it. You’re comfortable with hypocrisy …as long as it fits the narrative.

          Here’s my take on ‘poverty’ NZ style…

          First point…
          Anyone who has a genuine will to work in this country can find it. As long as hiser is not fussy and is prepared to move to the source

          Second point
          If the kiwi battler finds himself on a low income, there are any number of support agencies out there ready to help with budgetary and/or nutrition advice. And of course fellow kiwi battlers make an involuntary contribution from their hard earned income to help the impoverished meet their lifestyle expectations

          I know these sentiments are not popular amongst you and your mates but I would venture they resonate with most of our countrymen and that is why you will be forever outside the tent wailing like a banshee and pissing in. Cheers,c

          Reply
          • Pickled Possum

             /  March 11, 2017

            Jez Con you missed your true vocation go find a country to run, pronto and don’t let that brother of yours Corkscrew stop you. There is a world outside your bedroom door.

            Reply
            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              Sorry pickled, unless the rain stops you’ll have to put up with me for the entire day. Be brave and swallow some concrete pills. Cheers,c

            • Pickled Possum

               /  March 11, 2017

              Ha Ha Ha on second thoughts Stand Up comedian might be more up your Avenue. any how here is song just for you

              Imagine no possessions,
              I wonder if you can,
              No need for greed or hunger,
              A brotherhood of man,
              Imagine all the people
              Sharing all the world…

              You may say I’m a dreamer,
              but I’m not the only one,
              I hope some day you’ll join us,
              And the world will live as one

              Rain has stopped so that’s me, Outta here

            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              An oldie but a goodie posser. In my view Lennon had more musical & lyrical talent in his toenails than McArtney has in his entire body, despite the latter’s claims to the contrary.

              Pat gave us a beautiful song yesterday by a very classy songstress called Terris from Berlin. I had never heard her before but I have to say I’m smitten

            • Pickled Possum

               /  March 11, 2017

              Just another post script
              it was Lurcher bro who put Terri Nunn up and I must say I to am smitten.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              Dear old lurch, you sure? He’s an old fart

          • ConJob …

            First point … Why, in a prosperous, advanced Western society, should people have to be “not fussy” about the work they do and “move to the source”?

            Second point … Why, in a prosperous, advanced Western society, do we have “support agencies” specially designed to teach people how to LIVE POOR … or barely survive (by prosperous advanced Western standards) … or use the systems insolvency and bankruptcy provisions to escape sub-subsistence debt …?

            I kinda know the answer … Because that’s what the ‘market’ dictates, Right? Economics alone dictates these things? (And economics has nothing to do with government policy, Right?)

            So why, in a prosperous, advanced Western society, do we allow an inhuman element, money – our simple (and not sole) medium of transaction – to dictate that people should only live where the [government regulated] ‘free market’ dictates paid work (the highest aspiration of humanity) is available and that even then, many of its workers should just buckle down [shut-the-fuck-up] and learn to LIVE POOR!

            As for “our countrymen” …. We’ll see …

            Reply
            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              “paid work (the highest aspiration of humanity)”. Surely you jest my dear old thing. As a wildly read fellow I’m sure you have stumbled across Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. If not I suggest you get on it

            • Oh yes … of course … Maslow’s indisputable truth …

              And you favour an global economic dictatorship that traps virtually the whole of humanity at Level # 2 “Safety” … if it even allows them to get that high!

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#Criticism

            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              With some intrepidation parti can I ask you to elaborate in less than a thousand words on why virtually the whole of humanity should remain trapped on level 2. Bullet points please, the sun is coming out

            • We might have to agree on a premise like: If all the world’s income was distributed evenly, or no more than say 2:1, poverty would be irradicated overnight …? Everyone in every society globally would then be relatively assured of safety and could focus more on the higher needs …

              But instead we have a situation of induced ‘scarcity’ whereby economics dictates that the focus for most people remains largely upon physical ‘survival’ or, in the case of neoliberalism, on survival and physical ‘gratification’ …

              These are mostly ‘Safety’ issues … the competitive struggle for and/or attainment and/or ‘enhancement’ of survival …

              Communities genuinely intent on fostering Love/Belonging, Esteem and Self-Actualisation wouldn’t do this to themselves …

            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              I think you’re onto something there parti. Without taking us back to the utopian, bucolic world of pre-european maori …please if you will provide by way of example one country where ‘income has been distributed evenly’ and ‘poverty has been eradicated’. We can then use it as a model to transform our own society

            • The income distribution was just a premise Con … a premise … the world could live without any poverty … it could be done … that’s all …

              Why must it already have been done Connie? Why? We can create our own model. Indeed, Aotearoa NZ’s unique bicultural foundations rather dictate we must DIY it, don’t you think?

              There will be some indigenous civilizations which come close, not counting short-life expectancy etc … the modern version of tikanga can probably offer much … but basically we just need to model our economy on nature … eco-nomics … as per the New Economics Movement …

              This website might convince you I explore ideas widely, rather than just latching onto “new realities” ….

              http://neweconomics.net.nz/

              But you’ll be Right old son … and Yeah … Sigh … Why should you pay for someone else’s health care or some other parents’ child’s education …?

            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              Okay I get it. You present no evidence to back your case except some wonky economic theory based on ‘nature’. Sounds positively …enlightening parti. You do know nature can be a pretty brutal place left to its own devices

              By the way you presume too much. I’m happy to see my taxes go towards assisting someone less fortunate than I with their health needs. There are limits to this largess however. Cheers,c

            • It’s not a “wonky economic theory” Con … its basically a contemporary take on Georgism …

              “The current interest-bearing debt money system drives the world-devouring engine of perpetual growth, causes growing debt and massive environmental harm. The profit making bank-created money system we live with is a monoculture that causes people to behave competitively in a dog-eat-dog world …

              Equality, according to research, makes everyone happier. Inequality is the greatest predictor of a range of social ills.”

              But if you want the debt and the social ills … so be it …

            • … and the dog-eat-dog …

            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              Meh georgism. Another ‘ism’, communism by stealth. “economic value derived from land should belong equally to all members of society”

              I’ll take your georgism and give you an old russian folk tale. Enjoy

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Red_Hen

            • Yeah, Right …

              “Malvina Reynolds gave a twist to the story by making it a pro-work, anti-shirk socialist anthem.” – Wiki

              Unless you’re an anarcho-capitalist or totalitarian communist, the real problem is the conceptual division into supposedly polar opposites, communism and capitalism, of the single thing ‘political economy’, which exists along a fairly restricted continuum with only slightly different expressions of the same activity, e.g. state welfare vs private ‘philanthropy’ …

              The heart of the story in a human political economy is not your simplistic “work or shirk”. The central issue is tax and transfer …

              In real life the other barnyard animals would actually be doing other work, possibly equally as or even more useful than Little Red Hen’s … although some of it might be unrecognisable by narrow definitions of ‘work’ as in ‘paid employment’ (the highest aspiration of humanity) …

            • Conspiratoor

               /  March 11, 2017

              All good fun parti but allow me to bring you back to your central premise (you wandered off there for a bit) – georgism and its fundamental thesis “economic value derived from land should belong equally to all members of society”

              Now I don’t know how old you are or how long you’ve been in the country but if your memory extends back 45 years or so you will recall the second wave of socialism and Big Norm’s bold new vision for NZ as a collective of members participating equally in the fruits of their labour.

              This madness manifested itself in the tax payer funded OHU experiment (intended to give NZers a chance to develop alternative social models to everyday society). Didn’t last of course. It wasn’t long before some basic human behaviours surfaced and the members started fighting over the spoils. The rest as they say …is history

            • And how is that different, really, from the taxpayer funded ‘Demarcation Zones’ experiment which is soon to ‘isolate’ three areas of the country and devolve social spending to local authorities … who claim it will be used to provide “solutions” generated by local communities …

              I suppose you could say, as a ‘free marketer’, that the government will retain more CONTROL over Demarcation Zones than they did over OHU … that’s a good thing … eh?

              So do you think that if a person discovers oil or gold or lithium on their private land the proceeds should be entirely theirs?

              What about the increased value of their land provided by the community – everything from the nation to the neighbours – in the form of infrastructure, recreational facilities, beautification, location desirability, affordability … community spirit and ‘vibe’?

              History is as much what we didn’t do … or could have done … as what we did …

      • Blazer

         /  March 11, 2017

        sounds like a good bloke.

        Reply
    • PDB

       /  March 11, 2017

      Income inequality is worthless (though in TOPs own graph inequality has been relatively the same since the 1990’s so is hardly a sudden ‘crisis’), instead of focusing on how well some other people (envy politics) are doing we should be focusing on the bottom income portion and seeing if they have enough to live on comfortably.

      Reply
      • “Enough” PDB?…. Or … NOT TOO MUCH …?

        Reply
      • PDB

         /  March 11, 2017

        ‘Enough’ – you have to remember this lower income demographic isn’t just families, it is distorted by students, people in training, people wanting to only work part-time and the like……..hence why a straight comparison between the very top earners and the bottom earners is not a straight forward comparison.

        Reply
        • Conspiratoor

           /  March 11, 2017

          Agreed Pants …which is why I chose the 80/20. “The P80/P20 ratio gives a better indication of the size of the range within which the majority of the population fall and has less volatility than the P90/P10 ratio”

          Reply
          • Except that we’re not talking about “the majority of the population” …

            Discussions about inequality are best focused on P90/P10 because that’s where not only the inequality by the iniquity of the situation is apparent …

            P10s spend all their income on surviving … and pay their taxes too …

            P90s spend a tiny portion of their income surviving … and likey avoid paying their fair share of taxes …

            Etc … etc ..

            Reply
            • … not only the inequality BUT the iniquity …

            • PDB

               /  March 11, 2017

              You’re not listening PZ – P10s are a mixed demographic of all sorts of people earning lower incomes for a number of different reasons, a lot of them nothing to do with poverty and the like whilst P90 is a bunch of NZ’s richest people. The comparison is not oranges with oranges.

              PZ: “P10s spend all their income on surviving … and pay their taxes too …” – that’s a lie, in New Zealand the majority of P10’s would pay no net income tax, even if you included GST etc.

            • … but P80/P20 comparison IS oranges with oranges, Right?

            • PDB

               /  March 11, 2017

              As I mention below I think any income inequality comparison is nonsense.

              If you were to bother to compare then yes, P80/P20 would be more accurate than P90/P10, though again not perfect.

  3. PDB

     /  March 11, 2017

    yep – but I’d first argue any income comparison is essentially meaningless.

    It’s like saying someone with an old, but in good working order Toyota can’t get around by car because his neighbor has a brand new Mercedes…..

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  March 11, 2017

      No…money for gas…for the Toyota. ..or living in it.On the cusp of ….something special.

      Reply
    • It honestly looks to me as though you’re talking about the fear income comparison induces in you PDB … which is a different thing …

      Mere income comparison and identifying there has been an increase in inequality over time also means nothing … It doesn’t necessarily imply any action …

      If there was a flat 20-25% tax rate with no exceptions or loopholes and due enforcement I reckon we wouldn’t even be talking about this …

      Perhaps a few more filthy rich Kiwis might live in Uruguay … but … pfffffffffffftttttt …. What the heck …

      Reply
  4. Corky

     /  March 11, 2017

    Looks like tax cuts are on the way by the way Joyce is talking. Meanwhile Andy got trumped again. Jelly beans for everyone. Lets hope the middle-class get a good wack.

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  March 11, 2017

      *whack*

      Reply
    • Blazer

       /  March 11, 2017

      who are the middle class?Define.

      Reply
      • Corky

         /  March 11, 2017

        Good question. Broadly those too rich too enjoy lower socio economic benefits, and too poor to enjoy the non-struggle of the wealthy. They are the drays of society, the burnt out doctors, small business owners and middle management. They are sometimes their own worst enemy….keeping up with Joneses, mortgages they can’t afford and SUV’s.

        But you are being disingenuous, Blazer. Your point please.

        https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  March 11, 2017

          my point is this middle class you describe,cannot afford to buy a house in Auckland,why would a paltry tax cut win their vote?

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  March 11, 2017

            We’ll, what’s happened over the last 9 years? How do you know it will be paltry? National is going for 12 years. They know the budget must deliver..

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  March 11, 2017

              with over 100 bil in debt and wafer thin real surplus numbers …how could it be …anything but….?

            • Corky

               /  March 11, 2017

              What’s the debt to GDP ratio?

            • Blazer

               /  March 11, 2017

              off the top of my head GDP…230 bil/debt 120 bil….

            • Corky

               /  March 11, 2017

              ”Total Government debt, both external and domestic, represents 38 per cent of GDP, low by international standards. Ten OECD countries have total government debt to GDP over 100 per cent, the top five being Japan with a 232 per cent government debt to GDP ratio, Greece 188 per cent, Italy 147 per cent, Portugal 142 per cent and Ireland 132 per cent.”

              http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11468289

            • Blazer

               /  March 11, 2017

              it is irrelevant what the debt ratios of other countries is.We need independent monetary and foreign policy.Not interested in the childish Natz diatribe of ‘we’re not as bad as…’Slippery Eels and Liars,couldn’t run a bath.Wall St bootlickers.

            • Corky

               /  March 11, 2017

              Facts have that effect on bias… perhaps given your attitude tonight you should post at the ‘STANDARD’. That way you will get an understanding audience.

        • Blazer

           /  March 11, 2017

          nice link btw…do you approve..does anyone?Thats right don’t be envious of the wealthy,’they deserve it…because they work hard’,takes its place as one of the 3 biggest lies ,edging out ‘I wont’ cum in …your mouth’!

          Reply
          • Conspiratoor

             /  March 11, 2017

            Do you think prince harry should have waxed his chest dahl

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  March 11, 2017

              Not sure if you’re talking to me…but maybe he could go all the way,back,crack and …nutsack….

          • Nelly Smickers

             /  March 11, 2017

            Oh Blaaaaaaaaze ❗

            Reply
          • Corky

             /  March 11, 2017

            Sorry mate, I can’t help with that patently false envy…the hall mark of a hate -filled socialist.

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  March 11, 2017

              well you can wax your chest…just like ..Prince Harry…Corky….grab a top hat too…and you can be a…good sort.

  5. patupaiarehe

     /  March 12, 2017

    Once again, I’m up way too late. Here’s one that’s pretty good, but a little strange, for any fellow insomniacs, who are still about…

    Reply
    • Pickled Possum

       /  March 12, 2017

      Hypnotic almost patupaiarehe strange but true.
      Hope you enjoy your day off when ever that may be.
      It is 5.09 and I am ready to face the world once again and its raining …Again.

      Reply
  6. patupaiarehe

     /  March 12, 2017

    A very good cover of a very relevant song, by a band who don’t have English as a first language…

    Come wit it now
    Come wit it now

    The microphone explodes, shattering the molds
    Either drop the hits like De-La-O or get the fuck off the commode
    With the sure shot, sure to make the bodies drop
    Drop and don’t copy, yo, don’t call this a co-opt

    Terror rains, drenchin’, quenchin’ the thirst of the power dons
    That five-sided Fist-a-gon
    The rotten sore on the face of Mother Earth gets bigger
    The trigger’s cold, empty ya purse

    Rally ’round the family with a pocket full of shells
    They rally ’round the family with a pocket full of shells
    They rally ’round the family with a pocket full of shells
    They rally ’round the family with a pocket full of shells

    Weapons, not food, not clothes, not shoes, not need
    Just feed the war, cannibal animal
    I walk the corner to the rubble that used to be a library
    Line up to the mind cemetery now

    What we don’t know keeps the contracts alive and movin’
    They don’t gotta burn the books, they just remove ’em
    While arms warehouses fill as quick as the cells
    Rally ’round the family, pockets full of shells

    Rally ’round the family with a pocket full of shells
    They rally ’round the family with a pocket full of shells
    They rally ’round the family with a pocket full of shells
    They rally ’round the family with a pocket full of shells

    Bulls on parade
    Uh

    Come wit it now
    Come wit it now
    Bulls on parade

    Bulls on parade
    Bulls on parade
    Bulls on parade
    Bulls on parade

    Reply
  7. patupaiarehe

     /  March 12, 2017

    Hey there G, what’s been occupying your time? I thought of you, when I heard this magnificent cover….

    Reply

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