Oh Standard…

The (apparently) terrorist bombing in Manchester was a terrible thing.

Nowhere near as bad but still eye-rollingly stupid was some of the suggestions of political blame at The Standard in comments on the post Oh Manchester …

Millsy:

Starting to wonder if this was a false flag bombing. Now May can looking all defiant and prime ministerial and Corbyn can be portrayed as soft and weak on security.

Draco T Bastard:

That is the scary thought about this.

The Fairy Godmother:

Is it just a coincidence that the media were misrepresenting Jeremy Corban as supporting the IRA yesterday and now this happens. Hopefully it was.

Anne:

The timing of this event – given that Labour and Corbyn appear to have suddenly started to surge in the polls – caused me to contemplate the same possibility as The Fairy Godmother. At this point in time it would seem implausible, but it’s not a crime to entertain such a scenario.

Anne is right in a way about one thing. Stupidity isn’t a crime. And suggesting that an ISIS attack was a deliberate plot by a political party in an election campaign is very stupid.

In Vino:

Well said, Anne.
Some people are over-eagerly picking upon what they want to see as over-reactions. Their hidden agenda becomes overt.

Anne:

Thanks In Vino. I don’t think anyone here is seriously contemplating a Tory plot in order to gain more votes. But the possibility of some wrong headed right wing individuals – or an individual – trying to use the imminent election as a focal point for causing major upheavals in the name of some lunatic agenda is not an uncommon eventuality these days.

But that’s a long way from carrying out a terrorist bombing that murders many innocent people.

And it’s pathetic to target “some wrong headed right wing individuals”, considering the attempts by people and organisations like Hager, Dotcom and Wikileaks to try to cause (non-violent) major political  upheavals.

There was more, but there were also challenges to these assertions. The discussions even go Godwin:

Psycho Milt: How good at would do you have to be to notice how unlikely a false flag attack is in this case? Some people never met a conspiracy theory they didn’t like.

In Vino: I bet that is what they said straight after Hitler’s team burnt the Reichstag.

Psycho Milt: Hilarious you should call on the Reichstag fire as evidence.

In Vino: No – the false flag accusation would have been catered for in advance and laughed to scorn. You always seem ill-disposed to false flag suggestions…

Fortunately we haven’t seen terrorism in New Zealand like that impacting on various parts of Europe over the last few years.

But we do have political hate, and one of the symptoms of that are the ridiculous suggestions at The Standard.

A far more appropriate final comment (to date) at The Standard from Adam:

“Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love.”

Martin Luther King 1958.

And just as importantly,

“If we do not learn to live together as friends, we will die apart as fools.”

Martin Luther King 1963.

 

51 Comments

  1. Bill Brown

     /  May 24, 2017

    Good to see the nut house over at Loonieville is alive and well.

    Sigh ……..

    • In politics when people don’t have a lot of positives to work with then they tend to go negative. And the less positives they have the more negative and nutty they can get.

      • Missy

         /  May 24, 2017

        Pete, I think you are being too generous with them. I just think they are so filled with hate they can’t see past their own ideologies to show some compassion and empathy without trying to make it political.

        • I did refer to it as political hate, something that has been a problem at The Standard as long as I’ve been observing and participating there. And that is a major thing that holds Labour and the left back.

          • Missy

             /  May 24, 2017

            Sorry, I wasn’t clear, I was just referring to your comment, not your post. I just think the comment is generous towards those at TS. Yes, I agree it is political hate, and the longer that the left is out of power the more that hate grows.

            • The conspiracy gene is dominant in the excerpts you featured PG. They are their own worst enemies. I’ve never understood why intelligent centrist voices were dampened, nay extinguished, while angry radicals like Millsy and Anne were given such latitude to make fools of themselves and their political ideology.

              As much as I tut-tut over the poor judgement of odds there, I applaud it. How they imagine their cause might be advanced, hoe they think they’d convert anyone baffles me. They foster a forum of back-slapping sycophancy.

            • Missy

               /  May 24, 2017

              Interestingly Trav, a couple on that thread who were challenging their conspiracies have now been banned.

              And they have another thread talking about Terrorism, and skimming the thread it appears to be nothing more than a forum to spout anti-west, anti-capitalist sentiments, and proclaim terrorism not born from ideology but rather disadvantage and the result of capitalism and the evil tory Government – oh, and of course the racist bigoted right wing nut jobs (anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their agenda). Ironically the thread is meant to be talking about what can be done, and not one of their comments actually addresses the issue in the Muslim communities on this.

              This morning on GMB they spoke to a high profile Muslim sports star, he agreed with Piers Morgan that the Muslim community has to do more, and that they should be turning in those that are radicalised. These solutions and suggestions are often criticised by Islamist apologists or liberals as being racist or islamaphobic, but when you have the Muslim community saying the same thing there is something in them I think.

  2. Trumpenreich

     /  May 24, 2017

    “We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love.”

    Sure, because that would have defeated the monstrous Communists Bloc.

    • Hate sure as hell didn’t do anything to help that, or pretty much anything.

      • Trumpenreich

         /  May 24, 2017

        Ditto love, so my point stands. Bromides about lurvvv overcoming hate for the normies are what we are going to get in spades from the media party, celebrities etc in the wake of this diversity containment failure.

        • I don’t think ‘love’ is a good term for it, but tolerance, understanding and a willingness to work together for the greater good, are all far more likely to work, eventually, than hate and violence.

          • Trumpenreich

             /  May 24, 2017

            I’ll take reason and common sense over sentimental cliches any day.

            • Very funny. Is that a deliberate joke or are you oblivious to your lack of self awareness?

      • High Flying Duck

         /  May 24, 2017

        Walking with a big stick did though. Pressure was ramped up, brinkmanship pushed and the threat of violence was very very real until the Russians caved:

        …The cold war, it seemed, might roll on forever.

        Reagan would have none of this. From the moment he took office, he made it clear what he believed: that America stood for a good idea, the Soviet Union for a bad one; that the notion of a balance of power between them—“mutually assured destruction”—was thus morally wrong; and that the Russians’ bulging military muscle had no real economic power behind it. Therefore he decided to pour money into America’s armed forces, and (pace the Greenham Common ladies) put medium-range nuclear missiles into Europe; that way, Europe’s defence would not need an American intercontinental strike. If a rearmed America stood nose-to-nose with its adversary, and firmly but politely refused to budge, he reckoned it would win the day. He was right. By the year Reagan left the White House, the Russians had lost eastern Europe; by the next year, they had abandoned communism..”

        Hitler also wasn’t defeated by the power of love – I believe it took a large amount of violence and 2 nuclear bombs to end that one.

        While platitudes about ‘love’ and ‘spirit’ and diplomacy make great soundbites – and made Obama look quite the dashing statesman in his day I’m sure – it does tend to achieve sweet FA in terms of actual results.

        • “Walking with a big stick did though.”

          Not for about seventy years.

          And it wasn’t just Reagan who precipitated they change. Gorbachev dropped the hate of the West, but the Eastern bloc was also worn down and disillusioned by decades of failure.

          • Trumpenreich

             /  May 24, 2017

            “Gorbachev dropped the hate of the West”

            What’s love got to do, got to do with it
            What’s love but a second hand emotion
            What’s love got to do, got to do with it
            Who needs a heart when a heart can be broken?

          • High Flying Duck

             /  May 24, 2017

            Reagan took on an intractable situation and solved it by using projection of power and the threat of military might.

            It was into this that Gorbachev took power and seeing the writing on the wall entered disarmament talks.

            The saying “speak softly and carry a big stick” is a truism.

            Too often these days (and particularly in the UN) all we see is the ‘soft speaking’ part and then bewilderment that nothing changes.

            Diplomacy and talk is impotent without a genuine threat of consequences.

        • Blazer

           /  May 24, 2017

          Reagonomics…economic strangulation of communism.If you think Reagan,thought or wrote his own lines for himself…think again.Ringmaster just like our recent dearly beloved…P.M.

          • High Flying Duck

             /  May 24, 2017

            Hmmm. You don’t agree with him, so he must be a puppet!

            • Blazer

               /  May 24, 2017

              Frontman,as you know ex Gov of California,B grade actor,…for you…

            • High Flying Duck

               /  May 24, 2017

              Just the voice on that video gave me the chills. It was so…authentic!

  3. Trumpenreich

     /  May 24, 2017

    The UK police will probably be working round the clock in the aftermath of this horrible event – arresting anyone who said anything bad about muslims that is.

    • That’s as stupid as suggestions made at The Standard.

      And it’s disrespectful of and a dirty smear on the police who have to try and clean up after messes like the Manchester bombing. They general do a great job in very trying situations.

      Using the murder of innocent people to advance a political agenda is not just stupid.

      • Trumpenreich

         /  May 24, 2017

        We know that police resources are redirected to shutting down political dissent against the Globalists.

        Come on Pete, you know full well that laws are in place now directing police to threaten people for tweets that aren’t pro Islam or pro immigration.

        • Utter crap. That’s more pathetic than the Standardistas.

          • Trumpenreich

             /  May 24, 2017

            “Utter crap.”

            Sure Pete:

            [Deleted – that has nothing to do with Manchester or the British police. PG]

  4. “The (apparently) terrorist bombing in Manchester was a terrible thing.”

    Why (apparently) Pete?

    Have you seen something to contradict the reports of someone blowing themselves up in the theatre and killing 22 people – was it somehow a gas leak? a random spontaneous combustion? a show pyrotechnic going wrong?

    Why (apparently)??

    • Because that is how it looks and what is being reported, but the police haven’t confirmed details yet.

      • Missy

         /  May 24, 2017

        ummmm…. what details are you waiting to be confirmed?

        His name has been confirmed
        That it was a suicide bomb attack has been confirmed
        That it is a terrorist incident has been confirmed

        • From the report you linked to:

          “However, he has not yet been formally identified and I wouldn’t wish, therefore, to comment further.”

          “The priority remains to establish whether he was acting alone or as part of a network.”

          I’m not sure what the big deal is about calling it apparent terrorism.

          • Gezza

             /  May 24, 2017

            Just on the identification issue, the Manchester Police chief identified the perpetrator unequivocally, the formal identification required is by the coroner & just a legal formality.

          • Because almost 24 hours after the event (apparent) down plays what it was – call it what it was a stinking cowardly terror attack

            • Gezza

               /  May 24, 2017

              The cowardly label is meaningless. Killing yourself or dying after a shootout in an attack on your perceived enemies isn’t a cowardly act. I am NOT making excuses for this arsehole, it’s a cruel & reprehensible crime against innocent people, but callng him a coward is stupid. That’s possibly why Trump calls them losers.

            • Targeting a teenie boppers concert is cowardly – an 8 year old girl was a perceived enemy??? I think you have over looked the definition of cowardly G

              If this guy had the strength of his convictions he would have try to storm an army barracks. But no he attacked young girls at a concert hall. Brave man – NOT.

              And keep your “stupid” comments to yourself Gezza – disagree all you like but name calling in the debate is pointless and diversionary

            • Gezza

               /  May 24, 2017

              I didn’t say he was brave dave. I said calling him a coward is stupid. He is making a statement. His perceived enemies – Western Forces – kill children all the time. From the safety of a cockpit or a computer screen. Now that’s cowardly. Keep a sense of perspective. I am not praising this arsehole, just telling you that label won’t achieve anything.

            • And there it is again – Gezza telling people what to do and think.

              He is a coward G, simple as. He attacked defenseless young women and little girls at a music concert….which is a cowardly act. Its obvious why it was targeted – women are chattels in Islamic culture to a large extent, can’t have western women and girls being who they want to be…

              Trying to switch to the “Western Forces” meme is a nice attempt to bring some type of equivalence to the argument but holds no water.

              Children are not targeted, keyword TARGETED, by the Yanks or even by your chums the Israelis in the various confrontations in the Middle East.

              This piece of fecal matter targeted young women and girls. It was cowardly in extremis..

              I will use the descriptors I wish to, in the manner I wish to to describe an act that easily could have claimed some of my relatives as people attended that concert from all over the Midlands of England where one side of my families roots are

            • Gezza

               /  May 24, 2017

              Er .. dave, it’s bit rich YOU accusing ME of telling people what to think. I am expressing an opinion on a label that might resonate with you but won’t with people who don’t want Western Christian countries interfering & killing people in Middle Eastern Muslim countries any more. I am not going to continue this discussion because nothing excuses what he did except another bullshit religion.

            • Pot kettle son, pot kettle….

            • Gezza

               /  May 24, 2017

              Bias dave. I try to look objectively at what’s ultimatel caused all this shit. 3 religions.

            • I thought you had stopped commenting back to me Gezza?

              The geo-political situation gives zero justification for a bomb attack on young women and children G. Cowardly is the descriptor I used and its accurate.

              I can’t wait for the west to break the middle east oil habit – and its very close with alt power sources becoming close to economic, fusion being tantalisingly close and shale extraction techniques already giving the west an escape route from Saudi oil control

              Then we can shut the gate on the region and leave it destroy itself.

              I am no fan of boots on the ground in the Middle East or regime change in that region – would prefer the west wasn’t there or sponsoring regime change. But Al Qaeda and ISIS only use that as an excuse for their actions. their goal is something else altogether…..

            • Gezza

               /  May 24, 2017

              And oil.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  May 24, 2017

              It was hideously and deliberately evil – as usual for ISIS. It was a concealed attack on innocent people and in that respect cowardly, It was also a suicide mission for an insane cause and in that respect utterly demented.

          • Missy

             /  May 24, 2017

            Pete, as G said, formal identification is a legal formality, but the police have been unequivocal in confirming his identity.

            Understand this, the media here are ultra careful in how they report anything in general, partly due to the Levenson enquiry and the fallout on it, and the fact that it doesn’t take much for some liberal apologist to lay a complaint of hate crime against them (it has happened a lot), even if what they are printing is the truth. This type of language they use is evident in more than just terror attacks.

            Also, you raise the quote about the police looking into whether he was acting alone or not, then suggest that is a reason to call it apparent terrorism – why? Are you saying that a terrorist can’t act alone?

            As Dave says, the word apparent minimises the act, and comes across not too dissimilar to the idiots at TS who don’t want to believe that this is terrorism because it was perpetrated by a Libyan Muslim.

        • Blazer

           /  May 24, 2017

          confirmed if the terrorist was born and bred in..the U.K. yet?

  5. John Schmidt

     /  May 24, 2017

    NZ dodged a bullet with the Urewera Raid. While the real activity that was occuring never made it to court due to the evidence being declared illegal that does not change what was the grandiose intent of those involved, they were lucky that a judge killed the case right at the begining. While the final court case was minor in comparison the process certianly had a massive impact on those misguided people involved who were planning significant harm to NZ to push through their agenda.

    • John – no we got unlucky.

      Letting those numpties execute their plan would possibly have cost a few lives.

      But the positives would have been that the nasty radicalism underlying a lot of the “treaty” grievance industry would have been exposed, average NZers would have seen how close the creeping racial pot stirring occurring in NZ had come to real violence.

      Instead the pot lid got held on, the Leftie posers like Hager and his lawyer mates got another chance to scream police state and we all got a little bit less safe…

    • Blazer

       /  May 24, 2017

      the motley crew doing commando training in the Ureweras were laughable.Only they…took themselves seriously….probably only when they were…stoned.

      • Between 50-60% of all violent crime is drug enhanced. Heard it on Nat Radio this morning. I’m only surprised it wasn’t more.

    • John, a small but important correction: the evidence was not illegal nor not factual, it was declared inadmissible in evidence because the method of obtaining it was declared illegal, much to Police disgust. However, one law for all is the principle.
      I know a lot of lessons have been learned about how to handle this sort of situation from the after action inquiries. Certainly our Military personnel identified the N way of dealing with those involved in an insurrection as was demonstrated by their success in East Timor and the Solomons.
      It also made our politicians think again about the strength of Maori discontent in the Uraweras and Northland in particular. It is evolving slowly (the lasting settlement) and will remain an area of extreme sensitivity in my lifetime.