Open Forum – Thursday

15 June 2017

Facebook: NZ politics/media+

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50 Comments

  1. Gezza

     /  June 15, 2017

    Cracker day in North Welly. Nippy to start off with but the golden orb is rising into a mid-blue cloudless, sky, warming the house & patio, the stream is happily burbling along over the fence, mallards tugboating up & down in it, 2 pookies grooming themselves meticulously with their long black wings stretched out. Backyard Province is currently filled with sparrows, a posse of dunnocks, 3 starlings (unusual here), 2 blackbirds, & two fantails chirping & flitting around in the trees – with Bex, the laid-back neighbours’s black cat, sitting happily in a sunny patch on my outdoor chair observing all the birdie activity with obvious pure enjoyment. No wind. True. Not yet anyway. Hope everyone’s heading out into a day like this. Great to be alive.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  June 15, 2017

      Sky’s turned grey, wind’s come up & it’s cold again. I blame the government. 😕

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  June 15, 2017

        🌸

        Reply
      • PDB

         /  June 15, 2017

        A lot of hot air comes from govt buildings, can’t be that.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  June 15, 2017

          Hot air rises. Cold air rushes in from North Welly to fill the space. Damn, I’m good.

          Reply
          • PDB

             /  June 15, 2017

            Thus politicians contribute to global warming hence Wellington in particular should be especially warmer.

            Reply
    • Conspiratoor

       /  June 15, 2017

      Sounds like we have dropped a season and spring has sprung. Ain’t global warming a bitch G

      Reply
  2. Trumpenreich

     /  June 15, 2017

    Diversity engineering programs are a failure, and only increase inter racial and gender hostility:

    “Thus, pro-diversity messages signaled to these white men that they might be undervalued and discriminated against. These concerns interfered with their interview performance and caused their bodies to respond as if they were under threat. Importantly, diversity messages led to these effects regardless of these men’s political ideology, attitudes toward minority groups, beliefs about the prevalence of discrimination against whites, or beliefs about the fairness of the world. This suggests just how widespread negative responses to diversity may be among white men: the responses exist even among those who endorse the tenets of diversity and inclusion.

    In another set of experiments, we found that diversity initiatives also seem to do little to convince minorities that companies will treat them more fairly. Participants from ethnic minorities viewed a pro-diversity company as no more inclusive, no better to work for, and no less likely to discriminate against minorities than a company without a pro-diversity stance.”

    https://hbr.org/2016/01/diversity-policies-dont-help-women-or-minorities-and-they-make-white-men-feel-threatened

    Reply
  3. PDB

     /  June 15, 2017

    As a side note to the awful, awful fire in London yesterday I noted it didn’t evenly collapse into itself at close to free-fall speed?

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  June 15, 2017

      Good point. List all the differences you can think of.

      Reply
      • PDB

         /  June 15, 2017

        One broke a few major laws of physics and the other didn’t? Maybe Griff could advise….

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  June 15, 2017

          You going with thermite / thermate or space weapon?

          Reply
          • PDB

             /  June 15, 2017

            I’m going with col. Mustard with the candlestick in the dining room.

            Reply
            • Zedd

               /  June 15, 2017

              I hear it was Mr f-Bell with a lead pipe in the back passage-way

    • High Flying Duck

       /  June 15, 2017

      Can’t believe there are still those who think 9/11 wasn’t exactly what it was…

      http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a6384/debunking-911-myths-world-trade-center/

      But where there’s a will there’s a conspiracy.

      Not quite sure why anyone would want to wire up two buildings full of explosives and then fly aeroplanes into them.

      It would have been incredibly awkward to explain the bombs if the second plane was stopped or they missed, or the planes stopped the explosives working or…

      Reply
      • PDB

         /  June 15, 2017

        HFD: “anyone would want to wire up two buildings”

        THREE buildings completely fell down during 911, Building 7 fell at the same free-fall speed later in the day despite not being hit by any planes. So unexplainable was this that Building 7 was never included in the 911 Commission report. At the very least a proper scientific reasoning from the US govt should be provided of how this possibly occurred to totally clear up the issue.

        Reply
          • PDB

             /  June 15, 2017

            Note what I said here: “a proper scientific reasoning from the US govt” – the fact they took seven years to put out that nonsense says a lot…….

            Reply
            • High Flying Duck

               /  June 15, 2017

              So a silent explosion it was then…no explosion noise was reported or heard.

              As I said, if there’s a will there’s a conspiracy.

              If you think the Government is capable of perpetuating a fraud on the people of such a magnitude without completely fucking everything up or anyone leaking or developing a conscience over the mass murder of thousands of civilians then you give far too much credit methinks.

              It is simply impossible that this was a Government plot.

              Or maybe the planners were in the Pentagon and that’s why they had to fly into that building!

            • PDB

               /  June 15, 2017

              Again you are convoluting the argument – to question some aspects of the official story doesn’t then mean you disagree with the whole official story.

              For example one can be doubtful about the true identities of the hijackers without disagreeing that the planes were hijacked.

          • PDB

             /  June 15, 2017

            “A former employee of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has stepped forward and criticized the government agency for ignoring the scientific errors found in its report on the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 (WTC 7) during the September 11, 2001, attacks. Peter Ketcham, who spent almost fifteen years working at NIST, described how the flawed investigation methods were significantly different from the normal standards used by NIST, in a letter to the editor of the respected Europhysics News magazine.”

            “The root problem with the WTC Building 7 report is that NIST could not perform a definitive study under common standards of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) because it lacked the physical evidence. Most of the structural steel was removed and melted down beginning within days after September 11, and some beams were stolen as reported by the Telegraph. NIST only had access to about 150 smaller pieces of steel, called coupons, cut from the whole sections of structural steel beams”

            “Due to the lack of remaining evidence, NIST instead generated computer models of the building’s structure to test collapse theories using simulated fires to recreate the conditions prior to failure. The conclusions of the report have questioned for these reasons by thousands of physicists, engineers, and architects in the 15 years since the attacks, as documented by the group Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth (AE911).”

            Using dodgy ‘computer models’ – remind you of another debate?

            Reply
        • Gezza

           /  June 15, 2017

          & if you’re not happy with those, PDB, you’re wasted here … this is the place for you if you want to tuck into the 911 Conspiracy Soup:

          http://forum.clonehost.net/topic/8/debunking-9-11

          Reply
          • PDB

             /  June 15, 2017

            911 isn’t just a simple ‘conspiracy theorist’ ‘non-conspiracy theorist’ discussion – one can be doubtful about some aspects of what happened without being classed as a ‘loony’, or going against the gist of the main govt narrative.

            For instance was it ever proven beyond reasonable doubt who the hijackers really were? Some the govt said were involved actually turned up alive, others were supposedly able to pilot a commercial plane like it was a fighter jet even though they failed basic small plane training.

            It’s like the climate change debate – challenge aspects of the main stream narrative and quickly you are labelled a ‘climate change denier’.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  June 15, 2017

              Just keep looking. Anything & everything that still bothers you. I did. Wasted months on it. Had bookmarks to the floor, lost them in an accidental bleedin delete all bookmarks. But I’d got all the answers to all the *unanswered* questions of fact, chemistry or physics that were of any importance, I remember that. Christ what a rabbit hole that is.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  June 15, 2017

              Actually, this is all or nothing – either it was Al Qeda terrorists or it was a government plot.
              You can’t say some of it was a conspiracy and other bits were coincidence or were not organised by the government.

              Regards the pilots being alive:

              “THEIR names were flashed around the world as suicide hijackers who carried out the attacks on America. But yesterday four innocent men told how their identities had been stolen by Osama bin Laden’s teams to cover their tracks.
              The men – all from Saudi Arabia – spoke of their shock at being mistakenly named by the FBI as suicide terrorists. None of the four was in the United States on September 11 and all are alive in their home country.

              Last night the FBI admitted that there was some doubt about the identities of some of the suspects. A spokesman said: “The identification process has been complicated by the fact that many Arabic family names are similar. It is also possible that the hijackers used false identities.”

              Actual hi-jackers (some with false passports):
              http://www.fairus.org/issue/identity-and-immigration-status-of-9-11-terrorists

              Re being capable to fly the planes:

              Myth No. 1: Four novice pilots with no experience could never have successfully guided those planes into three out of four targets.

              Fact: The hijackers were not experienced pilots, nor had they ever piloted commercial airliners, but they also didn’t have to do any of the three most difficult flying maneuvers—flying in inclement weather, taking off, or landing. Only four of the hijackers were trained to fly—one for each flight. Three of the four had trained and earned private pilot’s licenses. The fourth, Hani Hanjour (American Airlines Flight 77) had both a private and commercial license, and experience with small commercial aircraft.

              All were trained in auto-pilot and navigational systems, and would have only had to plug in GPS coordinates and point the planes in the right direction to hit their targets. The day was clear, the targets were clearer. Experts conclude their skills would have been more than sufficient to finish their missions.

              For other bits:

              http://www.news.com.au/world/six-really-stupid-911-conspiracies-debunked-in-about-six-seconds/news-story/a59cdac9a894a786544f96b8b7893cee

            • PDB

               /  June 15, 2017

              HFD: “All were trained in auto-pilot and navigational systems, and would have only had to plug in GPS coordinates and point the planes in the right direction to hit their targets.”

              The one pilot with the most difficult job of hitting the pentagon head on turned auto-pilot off:

              “in AA77’s case, he disconnected it at about 38 miles west of the Pentagon, at 7000 feet. (AP disconnect time: 09:29; start of turn: 09:34; crash time : 09:37:46. That’s 8 minutes flying by hand”

              So what did this ‘novice’ pilot do after the auto-pilot was turned off in the 8 minutes before he hit his target?

              “According to FAA radar controllers, “Flight 77″ then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees per minute while descending at 3,500 feet per minute….”

              “The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O’Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, “The speed, the maneuvrability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane.”

              “But even that wasn’t good enough for this fanatic Muslim kamikaze pilot. You see, he found that his “missile” was heading towards one of the most densely populated wings of the Pentagon – and one occupied by top military brass, including the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld. Presumably in order to save these men’s lives, he then executes a sweeping 270-degree turn and approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway”

              “I shan’t get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, tip vortex compression, downwash sheet reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article (the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown whole semi-trucks off the roads.)”

              “The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing-loading (such as a commercial jets), i.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile.”

              No doubt he just got very ‘lucky’.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  June 15, 2017

              As we all know, for every event there are facts and then there are ‘alternative facts’ available.
              Just because something happened a certain way does not mean it couldn’t have been doing another.
              But this event was terrorism. The terrorists weren’t trying to steal the government’s thunder by claiming responsibility…
              I’ve seen a documentary on the Pentagon crash that showed quite clearly how it was done. It showed a fairly straight forward flight into the building without any fancy flying.
              At least your version has a plane- many theories day there couldn’t have been one…

            • PDB

               /  June 15, 2017

              “I’ve seen a documentary on the Pentagon crash that showed quite clearly how it was done. It showed a fairly straight forward flight into the building without any fancy flying.”

            • PDB

               /  June 15, 2017

              Logic would dictate the hijacker would hit the Pentagon as he headed straight for it, but instead he passes by and does an impossible turn at excessive speed for a plane of this type and finishes with a defying 1 mile run at 400mph parallel to the surface at a height of only 20 feet – all done manually by a guy with an (expired) pilots license who as late as mid-August 2001 was turned down from hiring a plane due to his inability to fly it solo (http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&the_alleged_9/11_hijackers=haniHanjour).

              “However, on 9/11, in piloting Flight 77 into the Pentagon, Hanjour would have needed to do much more than simply point the plane at a target. Because Flight 77 at first seemed to overshoot its target, the Washington Post will note that “the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level.… Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm.” [Washington Post, 9/12/2001] One Washington air traffic controller will later comment, “The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane.” [ABC News, 10/24/2001] One law enforcement official who will study Flight 77’s descent after 9/11 will call it the work of “a great talent… virtually a textbook turn and landing.” [Washington Post, 9/10/2002] Remarkably, the 9/11 Commission will overlook the numerous accounts of Hanjour’s terrible piloting skills (see April 15, 1999 and January-February 2001) and state that 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed assigned the Pentagon target specifically to Hanjour because he was “the operation’s most experienced pilot.”

              Sounds completely kosha to me..

            • patupaiarehe

               /  June 15, 2017

              Stop wasting your time, Pants. Confirmation bias works both ways. I suspect you’ll appreciate this one, especially from 3:26 onwards…

              Can’t say I’ve ever worked on a project as big as the WTC, but I know for certain, that jet fuel can not burn hot enough to melt steel, without either oxygen or compressed air. As for an aeroplane cutting steel support columns on the WTC, it would be a bit like shooting a beer can at a drain grate. Even if the can was full of jet fuel, and was doing 500mph, my money would be on the grate.
              Check this one out too, pay particular attention to the size & thickness of the perimeter columns… (7:30)

            • patupaiarehe

               /  June 15, 2017

              My question is this. How can an aluminium beer can (even doing 500mph & full of jet fuel) come out of being propelled through two drain grates, spaced several metres apart, completely intact? Just saying….

            • PDB

               /  June 15, 2017

              The ironic thing is that unlike the climate change debate there are thousands of experts in the fields of physics, engineering, aviation, chemistry etc that have willingly gone on record to say that the official story doesn’t make sense.

              The other real concern is the govt officials that have obviously lied about such things as the air quality post-911 in New York which is causing people to die early and the officials that made monumental errors during 911 that haven’t faced any charges for those mistakes (most got promotions instead).

              As with most things in life the truth probably lies somewhere in-between.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  June 15, 2017

              You’re ‘preaching to the choir’, Pants. Wasting your time trying to convince me, of what we both already know. Just out of interest, are you familiar with ‘Operation Northwoods’?
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

            • patupaiarehe

               /  June 15, 2017

              The truth is out there Pants, but what are you or I going to do about it? We both have a choice. Go about our daily business, knowing that we can do nothing about the bigger picture, or waste our lives ranting about some great big fucking conspiracy, that we can do nothing about, and be written off as ‘conspiracy theorists’. If I was 20 years younger, I’d choose the latter. But I’m older, & wiser now 😉

            • High Flying Duck

               /  June 16, 2017

              Patu – the steel didn’t melt in the twin towers – see my posit in the Friday Open forum.

              Re the piloting skills, especially for flight 77:

              1. The terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training needed to fly jetliners into their targets

              This is an especially popular contention with respect to American flight 77. Hijacker pilot Hani Hanjour was a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four-seater. Yet he is said to have pulled off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon. The pilots of American 11 and United 175 also had spotty records and had flown only private planes. They should have had great difficulty navigating to New York City, and even greater difficulty hitting the twin towers squarely. To bolster this idea that the hijackers were Oswaldian pawns, the conspiromongers often invoke impressive-sounding jargon and fluffery about high-tech cockpits, occasionally trundling out testimony from pilots.

              Reality: The cabal’s feats did not require in-depth technical knowledge or a high degree of skill. The attackers, as private pilots, were completely out of their league in the cockpits of those 757s and 767s; however they were not setting out to perform single-engine missed approaches or Category-3 instrument landings with a failed hydraulic system – or to land at all. They were setting out to steer an already airborne jetliner, in perfect weather, into the side of a building. Though, for good measure, Mohammed Atta and at least one other member of his group did buy several hours of simulator training on a Boeing 727 (this was not the same type of jet used in the attacks, but it didn’t need to be). Additionally they obtained manuals and instructional videos for the 757 and 767, available from aviation supply shops.

              Hani Hanjour’s flying was exceptional only in its recklessness. If anything, his loops and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it. Striking a stationary object — even a large one with five beckoning sides — at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn. If he’d flown the same profile ten times, seven of them he’d probably have tumbled short of the target or overflown it entirely.
              As for those partisan pilots known to chime in on websites, take them with a grain of salt. As somebody who flies 757 and 767s for a living, I think my testimony carries some weight. Ask around and you’ll discover that the majority of professional pilots feel the way I do.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  June 15, 2017

        Yep. Nuts.

        Reply
  4. Zedd

     /  June 15, 2017

    I hear the Natz were quizzed on their support for Israel building ‘illegal settlements’ on west-bank (Palestinian land since 1967). It seems that Mr E & co. are leaning further in support now.. but still keeping us officially guessing.

    “viva la Revolucion”

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  June 15, 2017

      The penny has dropped with T-Rex giving a sit-down Q&A somewhere – just shown on Aljaz, saying that: “there are some members of the Muslim Brotherhood in some countries that are ‘terrorists’, but there are other members of the Muslim Brotherhood in other countries that are parts of governments (that they like) and they are not terrorists, and … um … the problem arises when you designate all members of the Muslim Brotherhood as ‘terrorists’ …

      Trump’s probably tweeting something completely different as I type.

      Reply
  5. Gezza

     /  June 15, 2017
    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  June 15, 2017

      Published on Jun 14, 2017
      US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson has said the decision to blacklist the entirety of the Muslim Brotherhood as a “terror” group complicates the security and politics of the Middle East.

      Tillerson said it was problematic to place the entire organisation – whose members amount to more than five million, some of whom occupy positions in governments across the region – on a “terror list”.

      His testimony on Wednesday before the House Committee on Foreign Relations comes amid rising tensions in the Gulf, part of which centre on Qatari support for the Muslim Brotherhood.

      Reply
    • Trumpenreich

       /  June 15, 2017

      “Tillerson said it was problematic to place the entire organisation – whose members amount to more than five million, some of whom occupy positions in governments across the region – on a “terror list”. ”

      This only indicates how mainstreamed terrorism is in the M.E., not that the Muslim Brotherhood is full of “innocents”.

      This is the same shit storm as the Syrian Govt vs “Rebels”/ISIS situation. The Globalists aligned with ISIS and funded, sent arms to them pretending to themselves and the world that they were only arming “freedom fighters” against their enemy Assad who is an impediment to the Globalists “full spectrum dominance”.in the M.E.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  June 15, 2017

        You are talking about countries where if you criticise the government, you’re a terrorist. If you belong to a different sect & stick up for them in your country, you’re a terrorist. If you used to be in the government but it was overthrown, you’re a terrorist. If you protest, you’re a terrorist…. It’s staring to dawn on Tillerson, who actually has a working brain capable of maintaining an attention span longer than 30 seconds & holding more than one idea in his head at a time that these Arabs who gave them swords & massaged Trumpy’s ego set him up.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  June 15, 2017

          Wait’ll it starts to dawn on him that maybe Jared, Ivanka & Bibi did the same !

          Reply
  6. Trumpenreich

     /  June 15, 2017

    Research indicates that ethnic diversity has a negative effect on national innovation. We are being fed the lie that race diversity is a strength in business and economics. You only have to look at successful nations to see evidence – Japan is virtually a pure ethnic tribe, zilch ethnic diversity, and is an advanced industrial economic powerhouse, even after 2 decades of economic doldrums it still sits in the top 5 economies.

    “Although the effect of culture on national innovation levels is well-established, previous literature assumes cultural homogeneity within a nation. In this article we analyse two aspects of diversity – ethnic and values – and their impact on national innovation output. We show that ethnic diversity or fractionalization and values diversity are distinct and while the former has a negative effect on innovation, the latter contributes positively. However, countries are bound to have both types of diversity. We find that countries that are ethnically homogenous but diverse in values orientation are the best innovators.”

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13504851.2015.1130785

    Reply
  7. Alan Wilkinson

     /  June 15, 2017

    Good to see poor results in education being challenged. However, what seems to be missing is any comparative results for mainstreamed problem kids:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11876835

    Reply

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