Open Forum – Tuesday

10 July 2017

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63 Comments

  1. lurcher1948

     /  July 11, 2017

    Donald Trump had a busy twitter storm last night,HealthCare,Ivanka,Chelsea Clinton, and finally, James Comey all got tweets, but he didn’t mention me…SIGH

    • Gezza

       /  July 11, 2017

      Ya can’t expect to be on everyone’s radar all the time Lurchy.

    • Start tweeting back lurcher. He might respond.

    • PDB

       /  July 11, 2017

      I’m sure next time he accidently steps on something Lurch you might get a mention.

  2. NOEL

     /  July 11, 2017

    Yup he’s Tweeting to all Ameericans according to his Press people.
    Twaddle there is only 7million in the US with twitter accounts.
    Hold it the majority of account holders are the media.

    • lurcher1948

       /  July 11, 2017

      I do,hasn’t blocked me yet…

      • Gezza

         /  July 11, 2017

        It’s not only possible he doesn’t read your tweet replies Lurch – I’ve looked at dozens of the replies to several of Trumpy’s tweets – it’s highly likely he doesn’t look at any replies.

  3. Trumpenreich

     /  July 11, 2017

    The “Give Nothing To Racism” campaign by the HRC has hilarious posts in the comments.

    There is a black Mohammedan telling white guys how racist they are.

    He goes on to explain:

    -> 9 yo child brides are ok if they are “past puberty and mature”.

    -> white pepo stole nearly all their intellectual property and invention off black folks.

    -> Muslim countries are thriving democracies and have even voted women into leadership roles! Exemplary Islamic democracies he lists include Iran and Pakistan.

    -> Scientist used to define homosexuality as a mental illness, this “super not racist!” Mohammedan cant in the name of Allah understand why those scientists changed their minds.

    Apparently this Mohammedan is currently living in NZ.

    You can imagine how much fun I have had with him. He finally spits his dummy, screams “racist!” and flees the scene.

    And that is why I don’t want these 3rd Worlders/Mohammedans in my country.

    Why are creatures like that allowed to move into our white Western countries in their millions?

    • Mefrostate

       /  July 11, 2017

      Speaking of fleeing the scene, you never properly responded to my question yesterday. https://yournz.org/2017/07/10/50-years-of-decimal-currency/

      • Trumpenreich

         /  July 11, 2017

        Stop trying to squirm out of this one Mefro, you have an excellent illustration here of how our swarthy Mohammedan imports feel. Please respond accordingly.

        • Mefrostate

           /  July 11, 2017

          Happy to do so, but I’m not going to waste my time on someone who isn’t willing to engage in good faith, open-minded discussion.

          So you must answer my specific question before you deserve any response to your ramblings:

          What, in your view, are the key reasons why European nations make up most of today’s rich countries?

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  July 11, 2017

            Don’t ask, Mefro, just don’t ask.

            Trumpo is unaware that one is too small a sample to prove anything, that many Christians hold those views and worse ones on homosexuality and that there are indeed women in leadership roles in some Muslim countries.

  4. Trumpenreich

     /  July 11, 2017

    @Mefrostate re only whites make for a thriving 1st World capitalist democracy.

    “To me it looks like a pretty weak link and more like a minor correlation within much larger factors. Certainly you’d need to provide more proof than just your musings above, otherwise you veer into trumpenreich levels of mis-attribution.

    Forbes have an interesting article on this though.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybowyer/2013/05/29/is-religion-an-essential-driver-of-economic-growth/#5d913684206e

    Seems Allen Wilkinson has a similiar response to you that religion is the active ingredient.

    Interestingly, one research paper I will get around to posting sometime [ I have quite a selection of serious field research on race, sex and diversity that will make little Lefty heads explode 🙂 ] points to Protestantism as a necessary feature of HIGH TRUST societies. Repeating from yesterday, high social trust is a requisite for a functional civil society and the creation of social and political institutions associated with democracy and capitalism.

    China is officially under the thrall of an atheistic rationalist ideology, and religious practices are discouraged amongst the sheeple. Its an authoritarian hell hole.

    India is hardcore religious but is a Third World dump – and don’t try to tell me its a thriving or “developing” democracy.

    Then look at all the other 3rd world dumps – Mexico heavy Catholic and native mumbo jumbo producing freakish hybrid religious practices. Ditto for the rest of the latino countries.

    So only correlation is between Protestantism – which screams WHITE – and successful capitalist democratic states.

    • Mefrostate

       /  July 11, 2017

      1. “Repeating from yesterday, high social trust is a requisite for a functional civil society and the creation of social and political institutions associated with democracy and capitalism.”

      I agree that social trust is important, and am a strong believer in liberal democracy and inclusive institutions. I am perfectly happy for immigrants to be required to indicate belief in these shared values as part of their residency process. If they do so, I don’t care what skin colour or religion they are.

      2. “one research paper I will get around to posting sometime [ I have quite a selection of serious field research on race, sex and diversity that will make little Lefty heads explode 🙂 ] points to Protestantism as a necessary feature of HIGH TRUST societies.”

      Please do. I’m particularly interested in evidence that a) homogeneity of religious beliefs are significant for generating high social trust, or that b) Protestantism is superior to other systems, all else being equal.

      3. “Seems Allen Wilkinson has a similiar response to you that religion is the active ingredient.”

      I’m unconvinced on this point, and on 2a) and 2b), as I think other factors make up at least 99% of the ingredients. In fact, looking at countries today, religiosity has a negative relationship with prosperity.

      4. “China is officially under the thrall of an atheistic rationalist ideology, and religious practices are discouraged amongst the sheeple. Its an authoritarian hell hole. India is hardcore religious but is a Third World dump – and don’t try to tell me its a thriving or “developing” democracy. Then look at all the other 3rd world dumps – Mexico heavy Catholic and native mumbo jumbo producing freakish hybrid religious practices. Ditto for the rest of the latino countries.”

      For one thing, these kinds of vignettes ignore both the numerous other factors at play, and the numerous counter-examples (Japan, South Korea, Singapore). But they’re also useless unless you have your own strategy for helping these countries develop. Do they just need to be converted to Protestantism? Or do they need to be both white-skinned and Protestant?

      4. “So only correlation is between Protestantism – which screams WHITE – and successful capitalist democratic states.”

      In summary, your claim that the only path to a successful state is white->Protestant->social trust->capitalist & democratic->successful state appears tenuous in logic and completely unsupported in fact.

      • Anonymous Coward

         /  July 11, 2017

        In the timeframes that were being discussed yesterday religion was something of a red herring that Al brought up.
        The advantages certain areas had, as outlined in Guns, Germs and Steel. predate organised religion as we know it by many thousand years. Those advantages did lead to the advancements that led to organised religions, but I see religion as a result and not a cause.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  July 11, 2017

          Democracy began with the Greeks. The question is not whether wheat and potatoes enabled it but why it has not successfully been subsequently implanted anywhere except in countries with a dominant Christian (or Jewish) heritage. It’s not religion that is the red herring but what happened before it.

          • Mefrostate

             /  July 11, 2017

            Yeah, I think GG&S is a compelling framework for thinking about the periods between 10,000BC and 1492, and Why Nations Fail is quite useful for everything since.

            Acemoglu & Robinson in Why Nations Fail don’t attribute any of the success of democracy to Judeo-Christian values, but instead the reinforcing nature between inclusive economic and political institutions when they implemented together (this reinforcement they term “virtuous cycles”). The events which bring these together they describe as “critical junctures” (e.g. the Glorious Revolution). South Korea and Japan seem to support their theory and contradict that of religion.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              44% of South Korean’s identify as Protestant or Catholic vs 25% Buddist and 29% no religion. Links between religion and democratic support there are well-studied and established:
              http://tinyurl.com/ycubuyoj

              http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3232&context=utk_graddiss

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              Arguably the Japanese experience with Shinto government was so horrendously disastrous the population was more than willing to adopt the Christian-derived tolerant secular government imposed by the US after WW2 and enter the Western world via hugely increased trade and corporate links. Probably the latter is an important factor in South Korea too.

            • Mefrostate

               /  July 11, 2017

              Neither of those links show the link between religion and support for democracy.

              Hail shows “that religious affiliation is not associated with significant differences in political participation in either country.” And participation doesn’t equal democratic support anyway.

              Kim shows “Protestants have the lowest level of political tolerance among the three popular religious groups (Catholicism, Buddhism, and Protestantism). In terms of the culture wars thesis, it is confirmed that religious traditionalists have lower levels of political tolerance than religious modernists. Thus, religious traditionalists have a negative impact on democratic consolidation due to their low levels of political tolerance.”

              Don’t get me wrong, it’s an interesting idea, but I do think there’s very little evidence of causation over correlation. Especially when we only have one timeline of history from which to draw evidence. Plus, this kind of misattribution can be quite dangerous where it leads people to feel superior about their religion or their ethnicity (with obvious examples).

              I believe that efforts to foster prosperity and peace should focus on the spread of liberal democracy, inclusive economic and political institutions, inter-national co-operation, and the rules-based international order.

              If you’re arguing that Christianity is a necessary condition for success with the above, then I don’t think there’s evidence to support this. If you’re suggesting that we should start by evangelising those nations, then I strongly strongly disagree.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              First, the data dispels your implication that South Korea is a counter example that doesn’t have a major Christian heritage.

              Second, political intolerance is associated with activist and evangelical Christianity, not with Christian heritage.

            • Mefrostate

               /  July 11, 2017

              “First, the data dispels your implication that South Korea is a counter example that doesn’t have a major Christian heritage.”

              Ok.

              “Second, political intolerance is associated with activist and evangelical Christianity, not with Christian heritage.”

              No true Christian.

              Don’t get me wrong, it’s an interesting idea, but I do think there’s very little evidence of causation over correlation. Especially when we only have one timeline of history from which to draw evidence. Plus, this kind of misattribution can be quite dangerous where it leads people to feel superior about their religion or their ethnicity (with obvious examples).

              I believe that efforts to foster prosperity and peace should focus on the spread of liberal democracy, inclusive economic and political institutions, inter-national co-operation, and the rules-based international order.

              If you’re arguing that Christianity is a necessary condition for success with the above, then I don’t think there’s evidence to support this. If you’re suggesting that we should start by evangelising those nations, then I strongly strongly disagree.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              I’m certainly not advocating evangelism. I do think the evidence that Christian heritage is beneficial to the point of being near essential is pretty strong. I think the individual and social values that implies is most likely the critical factor and active religious belief is not, and may well be a negative factor.

              The lesson to be drawn is that the communal factors you list (liberal democracy, inclusive economic and political institutions, inter-national co-operation, and the rules-based international order) are unlikely to be successfully supported until the nation’s individual values and morals are aligned with those of the Christian heritage.

            • Mefrostate

               /  July 11, 2017

              Sure, I’ll agree that some of the elements of Christian values (e.g. do unto others) certainly go hand-in-hand with those communal factors.

              But those values can also come from secular morality, or exist within other religions (the Golden Rule is in almost every religion). I’d argue that we’re better off picking & choosing the values on their own merits, rather than the Christianity in general. Doubly so given that (to me) the causal link we discuss above seems tenuous.

              And I’m also highly skeptical of broadly using any religion’s values to dictate societal values. I’m sure you and I can both see plenty of values we each disagree with on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_values.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              Multiple issues with that page – under development – and far too much a detailed shopping list of niche options. You need to be looking at the fundamental most widely-shared values to identify the bases of successful societies.

              Then the question is how to get there from here for each messed up country you try to fix.

          • Anonymous Coward

             /  July 11, 2017

            Potatoes came from the ‘new world’ Al, the Greeks never tasted one.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              It was a jest, AC.

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  July 11, 2017

              Nah, It’s a fact you’ve just learned. Our little secret.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              Dream on, AC.

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  July 11, 2017

              You don’t do jest. You do slanted facts and tired tropes.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              Lefties have no sense of humour and wouldn’t recognise a jest if they fell over it. I’m surprised you know the word. Do you?

            • Gezza

               /  July 11, 2017

              Lefties have no sense of humour and wouldn’t recognise a jest if they fell over it.

              Don’t be a dickhead Al. I come from a whole family of lefties & was one myself for years. The sense of humour in our lefties is so broad & strong even funerals are like comedy night at the Apollo.

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  July 11, 2017

              Of course I know what jest is, Jester.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              Just going on current evidence, G. Politics has evolved since then and the Left are retreating towards the bonkers corner and have eclipsed the Monster Raving Loonies Party by becoming serious.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  July 11, 2017

              Left wingers are generally good people Al but they tend to take themselves too seriously and have difficulty recognising satire. They are also champions of the downtick. I posted on this yesterday. Cheers,c

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              That’d be why The Standard is such a source of hilarity, C. Lange and Cullen could crack a good joke but the pickings are pretty slim since, especially on the far Left wing.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  July 11, 2017

              Years in the wilderness changes a man Al

  5. lurcher1948

     /  July 11, 2017

    Hallelujah and praise the Lord, and why we are at it, i have the South Island for sale CHEAP…
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/07/drury_on_fibre.html

  6. Alan Wilkinson

     /  July 11, 2017

    Two new charter schools for Maori in Rotorua and Taupo. State teacher unions livid. Labour and Greens wearing blindfolds.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11888789

    • Corky

       /  July 11, 2017

      Anything to bust the teacher unions. However, these schools will have to perform, and I hope their supporters realise they have no choice but to vote for High Chief, Billy English.
      BTW…what is Winstons position on charter schools?

  7. Conspiratoor

     /  July 11, 2017

    I’ve travelled a bit and often wondered why kiwis are rubbish when it comes to mingling at parties. Walk into a room full of seppos and total strangers are all over you. Paddies and taffies literally launch themselves at you. So why are the supposed friendliest people on the planet so shit at mingling. Stuff attempts to get to the bottom of this perplexing conundrum…

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/94575135/new-zealanders-dont-mingle-well-at-parties-why

    • Gezza

       /  July 11, 2017

      So … what do you do at parties here? Do you mingle?
      And are all parties the same?
      I’ve found some are mingle parties, and some are not. And some kiwis will mingle easily and some won’t.

  8. I didn’t feel it in Dunedin, but I was walking around at the time.

  9. Alan Wilkinson

     /  July 11, 2017
    • Anonymous Coward

       /  July 11, 2017

      Silly chef took a form off the internet rather than self-govering himself by writing his own HAACAP/food plan.

      And if he needed to go to Wellington to learn about the food safety of rare mince then he shouldn’t have been serving it perhaps.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  July 11, 2017

        Crap.

        • Anonymous Coward

           /  July 11, 2017

          No it’s not. You can write your own food plans under the new laws, that he didn’t and then cried is his own stupid fault.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  July 11, 2017

            Comprehensive crap. Read the articles.

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  July 11, 2017

              I’m a chef, I’ve read the act, I’ve filled out the paper work.
              You read an article, that didn’t tell the whole story.
              Go yell at another cloud old man.

            • PDB

               /  July 11, 2017

              Yep – AC is correct – another media beat-up when you can write your own food plans and prove the safety of your own food however you wish to present it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              They also filled out the paper work – lots of it. And discussed it with the department. MPI put out new guidelines AFTER the Duke’s complaints. And now are doing testing to verify various alternatives.

              You think all that was unnecessary? Do you think?

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  July 11, 2017

              He could have done the work himself and proved it safe, and possibly helped other people along the way.
              That he didn’t says that either he was too lazy to do the work himself or he didn’t actually think his burgers would pass a bacteria test.
              That he’s in Wellington saying brining tastes best but it needs to go to the lab suggests the latter.
              How many people has he given the shits with his food though?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              Considering they serve hundreds of meals a day over the summer and have been doing so for many years without any complaint I have ever heard of I should think bugger all. How about you?

            • PDB

               /  July 11, 2017

              Isn’t MPI just assisting in finding a way to safely produce mince patties that are less cooked than recommended in order for those affected to produce a food plan that meets the requirements? Something these chefs were obviously incapable of doing themselves?

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  July 11, 2017

              People generally don’t complain unless they get real sick, most bad restaurant food won’t make you that sick. So I’d expect he’s given plenty of people the shits and had nearly no complaints.

              @PDB. A Chef could have his food lab tested as part of the HAACAP plan, but you have to pay for it yourself.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              How is a one-off test going to prove it is always safe? (Assuming the transport from kitchen to the lab can be managed without contamination.) I presume the Duke did prepare a plan which was rejected by the MPI vetting process.

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  July 11, 2017

              You contaminate the surface of the meat with ecoli, then do your process, mince the meat and test the mince for ecoli. If your process for ensuring the surface is clean before you mince it works there should be no ecoli in the mince and your process should be bulletproof.

              I read that they’d taken a pre-written plan and found they couldn’t fit their menu into it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              E-coli strains are present in most tank water and Russell operates mostly on tank and some bore water. Chances are that if there were e-coli in the mince they would be a minor contribution to our environmental exposure and would probably not be harmful anyway. What is the incidence of the dangerous strain?

              As a hotel they would be more likely to receive complaints from staying guests than a restaurant that had mostly casual customers.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              The original article :

              She said the 2014 Food Act allowed some leeway for chefs to write their own customised food control plans, but they would need to assessed by an expert and would cost the restaurant “quite a bit extra.”

              Fraser said he was told he could apply to prove The Governor was safe, but at cost of “thousands of dollars.”

              Haagh said the list of hoops a restaurant had to jump through under the new rules was “unbelievable”.

              “The government said this food control plan is going to be easier and simpler for restaurants.

              “But in the last year, between Dan and myself, we would have spent about a month filling out forms and getting this done.”

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  July 11, 2017

              Which backs up everything I said, that you said was utter crap.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 11, 2017

              It’s his fault that MPI didn’t have an accepted and tested procedure for cooking a high quality medium rare steak burger? And every chef who wants one would have to run their own verification tests?

              Well now they will have.

            • Anonymous Coward

               /  July 12, 2017

              It’s his fault that he wants to cook a product that has killed quite a few people over the years. Look up “Kevin’s Law”. There’s a video from the doc “Food Inc” where a women describes the slow lingering death of her child from eating contaminated medium rare burger.

              I think it’s a great thing that chefs have to jump through hoops if they want to serve risky food, you might like ecoli burgers but I don’t, and having studied food safety I wouldn’t even think of risking a burger that raw.