Mixed reaction to Labour’s family package

There has been some support but a surprising amount of criticism over the ‘family package’ that Labour announced yesterday.

It hands out more money to 70% of families, and includes a winter bonus for beneficiaries and superannuitants, but would scrap the tax cuts National has scheduled for 2.2 million workers.

Tax rates have effectively been creeping up over the last eight years as wages increase into higher tax brackets. Labour is ignoring that – Michael Cullen’s failure to address bracket creep was a significant factor in growing discontent over the Helen Clark led Labour government.

Adding complexity to an already complicated system gets particular criticism.

RNZ:  Labour’s plan labelled ‘convoluted spaghetti of entitlements’

The $890 million a year policy would boost Working for Families, give a $60-a-week payments for families with children under three, and help beneficiaries and pensioners pay for their heating.

The Labour Party would scrap National’s tax changes that were announced in May’s budget, which Labour said would deliver a disproportionate benefit to the top 10 percent of income earners.

Child Poverty Action Group economic spokesperson Susan St John said Labour’s families package was more generous than National’s, but it did make the system more complicated, and could result in people receiving less money.

Ms St John said the boosting of Working for Families by Labour built on what National started and was a recognition from both parties that the current system did not work.

She said Labour should have also scrapped the in-work tax credit.

Not surprisingly National has also criticised it.

Finance Minister Steven Joyce said by not going ahead with the government’s tax changes, Labour was fleecing billions of dollars from New Zealanders.

“Why don’t they just trust people more with their own money? Let the thresholds move up to reflect the fact that wages are rising, and give superannuitants the benefit of that through the superannuation link to after tax wages.”

He agreed the extra entitlements would make it harder for people to know how much money they receive overall.

“All they’ve come up with is a convoluted spaghetti of entitlements that will confuse everyone.”

Patrick Gower: 2.2 million Kiwis miss tax cuts under Labour’s package

Labour has promised it will scrap National’s tax cuts – meaning 2.2 million Kiwis miss out on extra money.

National says 1.2 million workers who earn $26,000 to $52,000 a year will miss out on an annual cut of $560, while another one million workers who earn over $52,000 a year will miss out on an annual cut of $1000.

Labour’s package is risky, as it targets beneficiaries, superannuitants, people with babies and those on or close to Working for Families thresholds, with anyone else missing out on what National has promised.

“Now is not the time for tax cuts,” Labour leader Andrew Little said while announcing the package.

The Standard has tried to put a good slant on it in Labour’s Targeted Families Package.

Lots to like here!

There is some support in comments but also quite a bit of criticism, especially over adding to Working For Families. Jenny Kirk responds to the reaction:

Surprise, surprise – the majority of Standard posters having a grizzle about Labour again.

I just came on here to see if any of your right-minded posters had anything complimentary to say about Labour doing away with the Nats proposed tax cuts and using those funds instead to help people who are struggling – and other than a couple of you, you have all degenerated down to the grizzling level and miserable-mindedness of the “well offs” !

If Labour can’t sell their package to The Standard audience then they may have a challenge ahead of them.

But it isn’t all negative, Lloyd commented:

Andrew Little is a kind and intelligent bloke investing in us all.

Steve Joyce is working for Emirates, BMW and Jaguar and starves babies – what a bastard!

The voters will decide whether they agree with Labour on this approach to targeting families and allowing the majority of workers to pay for it through higher taxes.

Leave a comment

79 Comments

  1. “There is some support in comments but also quite a bit of criticism, especially over adding to Working For Families. Jenny Kirk responds to the reaction:

    Surprise, surprise – the majority of Standard posters having a grizzle about Labour again.

    I just came on here to see if any of your right-minded posters had anything complimentary to say about Labour doing away with the Nats proposed tax cuts and using those funds instead to help people who are struggling – and other than a couple of you, you have all degenerated down to the grizzling level and miserable-mindedness of the “well offs” !”

    Jenny Kirk is so predictable. Her constant approbation and emotive raging are lamentable. She fails to see that its prominent types like her that fuel and display the divide deep within Labour. She ( and other Standardistas) are seemingly on a mission to highlight the insurmountable structural problems this mired Party face. For years without firm cohesive leadership and direction at all levels, Labour is an also ran. Until they can get on the same page and get some discipline, they and their policies will be mocked at worst, and judged harshly at best.

    Jacinda Ardern indeed. What a sad joke.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 12, 2017

      Last line. Sad. But yup. Nothing there. Absolutely nothing. Maybe teeth.

      Reply
  2. considering we are only just getting back into the black, tax cuts seemed a bit soon, and Nationals tax cuts do help the wealthy more than they should….. I can see the appeal in helping with the working class folk which including myself, and if we keep on about child poverty this is a bigger better package. On the otherhand, I am personally opposed to WFF as middle class welfare and over complicating things. A simpler rejig could have been done, slashing the bottom tax rate instead perhaps.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 12, 2017

      Child poverty will continue as long as its economic for some to produce more poor children.

      Reply
      • I agree, I Think financial incentives to not have kids, perhaps 1-2k per year for “at risk” young woman to have Jadelle implant, we cant coerce/use stick, but a financial carrot…….. 1k a year is a tiny fraction of what it would cost the state if they had kids, and yet these ladies would be all thinking they’re super rich for a week or 2, the devil is in the detail of identifying at risk mothers, Oriwa Kemp and Lisa Kuka come to mind…. (I’ve just been watching darklands doco, made me sick!)

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  July 12, 2017

          Nope. Won’t work. When the family/whanau/ainga have to pay for them is when it will stop.

          Reply
        • PDB

           /  July 12, 2017

          The first thing we should do is find out how many children are REALLY in poverty (not the overblown figures someone grabs out of thin air) and specifically target any welfare to those kids whilst fully understanding what the causes are in those families. We’re probably talking a few 1000 kids at most in this country that suffer due to real poverty.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  July 12, 2017

            You’re talking relative poverty. Relative poverty still causes problems.

            Reply
            • PDB

               /  July 12, 2017

              The problem with relative poverty is it’s……….relative.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              No the problem with relative poverty is it causes crime. The have not enoughs want to to take from the have mores or have somes. It causes depression. It causes jealousy. It causes anger & resentment.

            • PDB

               /  July 12, 2017

              Compared to today’s standard of living most people in the recent past would have been considered to have been living in ‘relative poverty’ – somehow the bulk of them led happy and productive lives I would suggest. It’s not the ‘relative poverty’ that is the problem, it is the reaction and attitude of people/families/govt today to it.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              I grew up what eould now days be considered poor. I never felt poor because the relative poverty we were in for a long time was so common. Mum wanted four kids & to send us to Catholic schools which cost more. Everything was second-hand. But higher education was largely free & my younger & older brothers were able to put themselves through university, & go flatting, with some assistance from scholarships, & holiday jobs as labourers on bulding sites, stewards on ferries etc.

              One is successful & well off, the other is badly bi-polar, poor & struggling through life on a benefit requiring constant oversight & management by the MHS.

            • PDB

               /  July 12, 2017

              I too would have been considered to have been brought up in relative poverty by today’s standards, hardly anything brand new and in a poorly insulated rented house. It was normal in our town, and funny enough most of us were better people for it.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              If any of us had ever stolen anything from anyone our parents would have gone berserk & dad would quite likely have dragged us down to the cop shop for a frightening & made us apologise & pay restitution or do the families lawns for a month or whatever.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              I don’t think relative poverty causes these problems, G. What causes them is the belief there is no escape from it. People need hope and when that is denied hell breaks loose.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              We’re basically tslking about the same thing Alan, we’re just looking at it from a different angle. Tslking of sanctions for misdemeanors I went through a short phase when little of being fascinated with lighting fires – little ones. For some weird reason I still can’t explain I lit one in a bloody cupboard one day & that was the last straw. I got dragged down to the fire station. A very nice fireman spoke to me, next to the fire engine, let me slide down the pole twice after him, let me wear a fireman’s helmet, told me what could go wrong with this little very bad habit & I never did it again.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              Not quite, G. A lot of immigrants live in relative poverty here, but with huge hopes for a better life and ambitions to work to fulfill. It’s not where you are but where you are going.

            • Zedd

               /  July 12, 2017

              @AW

              so are you saying ‘vote Natz & all your problems are magically solved’ ? :/

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              Absolutely not, Zedd. If you wait for the Government to solve your problems you will die waiting.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              @ Al, you’re partly right. I’m talkng about the ones who’re not. Because those are the ones who the focus needs to be on. The others will look after themselves. It is not a level playing field for many of those and glib statements like they lack hope – which is fucking obvious – don’t fix it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              If it’s so fucking obvious why not do something about it instead of expecting the Government to throw money at them?

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              Because you have to allocate money to the right people for the right purpose to address all the different bloody problems that, aggregated, cause all the problems & misery. You have to target the spend & know what each problem being addressed in what area is, what the objective is, what tasks need to be done, what the process is, who’s best to deliver it, what progress is being made & what outcome you want. It’s been all over the place for too long. You can’t just leave it up to bloody bureaucrats, beancounters & public policy degree-holding policy wankers in Wellington.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              Irrelevant to creating hope. Only local people can do that with ideas and energy and example.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              OBVIOUSLY! Forget it Al. It’s just too bloody frustrating trying to get through to you when you think just suddenly getting everyone to arrive at that conclusuion & think & be just like you will somehow happen overnight & that’s all there is to it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              Of course I don’t think it will happen over night. That’s why I sponsor Books in Homes and do a lot of helping other folks around here in private ways. (As you do too.)

              … and am enthusiastic for initiatives like this:
              http://www.ihaveadream.org.nz/our-initiatives/

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              I know you’re a good bastard at heart Al, I really believe you are are but this intergenenerational poverty, illiteracy , crime, health & mental health problems, forever undercutting whatever progress anyone tries to make here & there needs a bang – a bloody good whack & banging of heads to together. The whingers & moaners and maori & pakeha bashers need to get out of the bloody way & find & implement solutions jointly & holistically, for once and for all – it’s an investment in everyone’s future. If there aren’t enough houses, train up & bloody build them. If you built & owned them you might maintain them. Stop pissing about in dribs & drabs & endless argy bargy. That’s what we’re doing. The media feeds it. All we hear about is the argy bargy every bloody year at Waitangi & feeding poor kids & gangs & bitching & backbiting on both sides.

              & Maori MP’s just battle each other because they’re from different parties & oppose on principle & have no incentive to cooperate with each other. In Parliament, in coalition, the right ones I think have a better chance of addressing these many problems people complain that so many of their communities are afflicted with because they get to appreciate & work within the system & to understand how budgets & governance work & the trade offs & how to set & achieve goals for those of their people who aren’t succeeding within the system for a variety of reasons. That’s my thoughts dumped down quickly & I’m done on this for now.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              The problems are mental, not financial, G. Just dealing with a classic one now. A parent wrecking his child’s life because that is the only way he knows how to behave. Money can’t fix it. Bureaucrats can’t fix it. The family is stuffed. Only thing we can do is help rescue the child and her family and break the cycle with hope and sanity.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              Your mind is like a steel trap Al. I’m not going to try & prise it open any more, it’s too firmly shut.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  July 12, 2017

              The problem here is the victim mentality. As Al suggests, many refugees come to NZ with next to nothing and then have natural prejudice thrown on top. However they still see an opportunity to improve theirs and their children’s lot. These people accept adversity and work hard to better themselves so tend to succeed better than many over the long term.

              When people see their problems as being externally caused, they look externally for the solutions and in so doing avoid taking action themselves to get out of the situation they are in.

              A great example of this is Maori in Australia who are generally very successful as they are no longer under the yoke of colonial oppression and treaty grievance – an ingrained sense of injustice that whether valid or not simply reinforces an attitude of abdicating self responsibility and wanting someone else to come in and solve all their problems.

              The above is a generalisation, and of course there are exceptions, but I believe it has much truth. There are types of people who face adversity and will look to get past it rather than sitting back and apportioning blame for all that has befallen them.

              Then there are those who wallow in set backs and fall into a self fulfilling prophesy of despair and cannot see their way out because someone else is always to blame and they don’t see it as their job to fix things.

              If people were taught Stoicism and learned to practice it they would be far happier at all stages of their lives and would be make better decisions to improve themselves.

              Relative poverty is only an issue where envy and “keeping up with the Jones’s” attitudes prevail. These are destructive and negative and should not be pandered to.

              What others have has no intrinsic effect on your situation so are irrelevant.

              Eliminating real poverty and encouraging self reliance as opposed to state handouts should be the focus.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              I give you some real life and you respond with head-banging closed ears. I’m always open to real experiences. Interpretation comes later.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              .. that was for G, of course.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              @ HFD

              Absolutely. The sooner the better. OK. You’re the Associate Minister charged with getting. Northland’s beneficiaries off welfare & up & running as described. You have 6 years .

              Set it all out for me. Where you start, how many different projects do you need. Who has to be involved. The lot. How long do you need to do the strategy & plans? 5 minutes, like Al?

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              @ Al. Same job. You’re putting in the competing for the funding.
              Strategy & plan outlines by Friday 6 pm.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              *competing bid

            • High Flying Duck

               /  July 12, 2017

              I didn’t say it was an easy fix.There is no glib solution or magic wand to wave -and the solution doesn’t start with taking away the handouts then doing the other stuff – it is a matter of slow transformation and setting expectations, without being punitive.
              You cannot build self esteem and personal responsibility by implementing draconian obligations onto beneficiaries. That would be counterproductive. You also have to accept that such changes require time and persistence.

              There are many non-profit programs that exist whose sole purpose is to give people self esteem and self worth – especially for men who have committed family violence and ex-prisoners.

              Failure must be embraced as a step toward success and most importantly people need to be taught that they need to look to themselves for solutions first. Does that mean you don’t ask for help from others – of course not, But people must be shown that if they set their minds to something they can achieve great things. And they can do it no matter what has befallen them in their history.

              Expectations should also be set that with rights come responsibilities and with benefits come expectations that all concerned see it as a stepping stone while moving on to better things – it is a safety net rather than a right for life.

              It is about moving away from grievance and into self determination and responsibility. If kids can be brought up to believe that they can achieve, it is a huge step towards enabling kids to take the steps to be successful instead of writing themselves off early because they were born a failure.

              A huge cultural shift is required. And that doesn’t mean historical issues get ignored, but it does mean the past needs to stop being used as a road block to success in the future.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              @ HFD
              Yes. Your strategy & plan needs to take all that into account & it has to get passed by Cabinet in a coaltion government including Maori MP’s.

              If you can’t achieve the specified outcome in 6 years, give the timrframe you want & your strategy & plans should have dated milestones. Max timeframe you’re allowed is 20 years. If you can do it sooner, so much the better.

              If you need an extension of time to produce the strategy, plan outline & timelines, beyond Friday 6 pm, tell me how much longer you need.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  July 12, 2017

              I Can’t quite work out the level of sarcasm there Gezz – but from what I can see the movement in the direction I articulated is already underway.

              There is a massive paradigm shift being pushed through by Bill English which will transform how and why the Government interacts with people.

              The focus of this is much more outcome based where previously it has been symptom alleviation.

              It is very early days, but the reasoning and methodology are very innovative and aspirational.

              The Government can only do so much though.

              Examples:

              In education the Government is looking at schools that have had successes and want to extrapolate the success to others. (Excuse the use of Nat PR for this):

              *****
              “This initiative is about schools working together to share expertise, resources, leadership, and quality teaching. Our aim is to strengthen school leadership and keep our best teachers in the classroom teaching.

              That’s because international evidence and New Zealand-based research is clear – the quality of teaching and school leadership are the two most important in-school factors in a child’s education.

              In the first year of the four year roll-out of our new initiative:

              793 schools have formed themselves into 96 communities of learning.
              Together these schools have more than 250,000 students.

              That means about a third of New Zealand students are in line to benefit from their schools working together and sharing expertise.””
              https://www.national.org.nz/a_better_education_for_our_children
              ****

              Partnership schools also offer a way for children to learn using innovative methods designed to help those who would otherwise slip through the cracks.

              The Government are completely overhauling family violence laws and are trying to move to top of the cliff investment rather than ambulance at bottom.

              There has also a been a huge focus on getting beneficiaries into work that has been very successful.

              Also the “Social investment” approach being rolled out this year aims to help at risk people earlier and find ways to change their path:

              ******
              “The Social Investment Agency, to be launched in July, will encourage greater use of data by social sector agencies when making decisions about what sort of support to provide.

              Social Investment Minister Amy Adams said the work was about better understanding the needs of vulnerable Kiwis and how government initiatives affected someone across their whole life, not just in one specific area.

              “Greater use of data and evidence, and a focus on measuring outcomes, means we can create a system that looks for more opportunities to intervene sooner and more effectively.”
              http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/91780687/Government-announces-new-social-investment-agency-to-help-vulnerable-Kiwis

              *******

              Compared to what other parties are offering, the current lot are light years ahead in terms of their thinking and in putting new policies in place to fundamentally change the system from a mindless one size fits all bureaucracy into a more tailored results driven enterprise.

              I just wish this sort of seismic shifting thinking would get more coverage, but unfortunately it is slow moving and has no scandal attached.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              There’s no sarcasm there at all. You & Al make it sound like its simple & I’m complicating it. I’m not. Are you dropping out of bidding for the job on the basis the National Coalition is going to achieve it in 20 years?

            • High Flying Duck

               /  July 12, 2017

              I enjoy politics from the sidelines – I cannot fathom how they do the job. It must do their heads in. I could not and would not do the job Gezz.
              As to the gist of what you asked – do I think the Nats are perfect. Nope. They do a lot of things I really do not like at all. But rather to paraphrase the famous quote:
              National are the worst party in Government – except for all the others.
              They are thinking differently and (trying to) work to outcomes rather than just putting band aids on problems. For that they will do.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              I enjoy politics from the sidelines – I cannot fathom how they do the job. It must do their heads in. I could not and would not do the job Gezz.

              I can. It’s not the politicians who do the work, the plans, the business implementation, the design, the comms & systems builds or changes, the manuals, guidelines, websites & comms as well as the reporting, recording, monitoring, preparing answers to Questions in The House – amidst constant upheaval & changes caused by management restructurings & :downsizings & culture changes & chaos, Ministerial Changes, & changes etc. It breaks down to dozens of complex interrupted & rejigged projects built by hard working public servants that get forever dicked around with by every government & its dog.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              Where did I ever make it sound like it’s simple? The objective (hope) is simple. Getting there is immensely varied and complex.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              I haven’t studied it in detail yet. I’m not being paid for this either. I’ll probably have more questions. That’s what happens. When we’re finished to my Ministerial flunky satisfaction for now we can bill Bill English – or whoever! I’ll be taking a cut.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  July 12, 2017

            Just leaving to feed horses. Will respond later.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              Heading home from dad’s rest home. Look forward to it. I’m a pop rock folk star on the noticeboard this week. I look the part, that’s nice – great action shot taken secretly.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              Ok, top down, so start with the philosophy:

              Empower individuals to make their own lives better.
              1) Remove constraints
              2) Give access to resources
              3) Inform and inspire people

              Next, strategy:

              1a) Create strong tradeable environmental property rights and abolish the RMA
              1b) Give Maori land owners the same rights as English land owners and abolish the Maori Land Court
              1c) Legislate that local government is responsible only for health and safety of buildings and gut the Building Act accordingly
              1d) Abolish zoning and create an education voucher system to allow all students to attend the school or college of their choice – public or private
              1e) Allow beneficiaries to take on paid work as available with seamless transitions and moderate abatement levels along with tax incentives to keep improving paid income
              1f) Decriminalise cannabis and educate, identify, treat and rehabilitate hard drug users to separate them from illegal supply sources.

              2a) Provide education vouchers as above
              2b) Encourage businesses to provide scholarships and work experience including apprenticeships
              2c) Improve infrastructure, especially transport and communications
              2d) Create courses and challenges for would-be entrepreneurs
              2e) Teach life skills and encourage outside participation and debate
              2f) Teach planning and investment strategies and skills

              3a) Provide every student and beneficiary with a life coach to help set goals and implement strategies
              3b) Encourage “pay it on” from successful people to mentor and coach others
              3c) Encourage an active market place for skills and services, adapted for the small communities around Northland
              3d) Encourage vigorous competition in ideas and methods of providing education and training

              Ok – that would be my brief off the top of my head. Probably missed out stuff – maybe others can fill in.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              @ Al. Righto. Good effort. I’ll look at it in more detail this evening, then come back to you over the next few days maybe for more details.

              Meantime:

              – Strategy for getting it passed by Maori MP’s?

              – cost it. Ballpark will do.

              – assess which other departments have to have input & likely issues.

              – identify any new legislation or changes that will be needed.

              – Time frame it. Milestones will do.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              No. Meantime is dinner and I’m the cook.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              Has to be with the Associate Minister is some reasonable form by Wednesday Al. Can Bryce help you cost it? Milestones just take a punt knowing what you know, or ask somebody who might know. This is going to have to break down into dozens of sub-projects but a high level paper is all the Minister wants at this stage.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              Maori party get the option – get on board with the programme or we make Winnie Deputy PM, give him a knighthood and a lifetime supply of whisky and go with him

              Cost – no idea, depends on all the detail. Big items – education/coaching, infrastructure, drug management. Offsets will be reduced welfare and increased taxable income and expenditure.

              Issues and other departments – heaps. Has to be an all of government approach. Also hugely affects local government.

              Legislation – obviously RMA, building, local govt, education, health, welfare, transport.

              Timeframe – indefinite but immediate actions at least one parliamentary term – probably two.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              Sounding good identify lead agencies for each specific project.
              Do need some milestones. Will need some stats too. Should be no problem for you to find & analyse. Ministers don’t do this shit. Will save this page & study it in detail.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              Haven’t charged for the ideas. Will charge for the work.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              Oops, posted this above in the wrong place:
              I haven’t studied it in detail yet. I’m not being paid for this either. I’ll probably have more questions. That’s what happens. When we’re finished to my Ministerial flunky satisfaction for now we can bill Bill English – or whoever! I’ll be taking a cut. I’m actually quite interested in looking at the practicalities of this, and for any issues that have to be addressed – just as an academic exercise, without the constraints of my former position. No biggy, just worth evaluating seriously for me.

  3. PDB

     /  July 12, 2017

    Labour’s idea looks like a rushed proposal in order to provide any alternative to National’s much fairer package.

    For Labour to take tax relief from those only earning over $26k, most of which the govt owes these workers for years of ‘tax bracket creep’, and give it to people who are already well catered for by the govt is a joke. Further encouraging people to have kids they can’t afford is the icing on the cake.

    Labour’s very last power base is the unions (who fritter away worker’s money on Labour without a mandate to do so), the welfare rorters, and the unemployable – keeping these people unemployable & welfare dependent is the only way they can remain even remotely politically relevant.

    Reply
  4. Zedd

     /  July 12, 2017

    ‘boo hoo’ the richest wont get their extra $1000.. how f@cking sad

    sounds like Little is looking at a more targeted options.. for those who most need it

    It was interesting listening to Gower, attacking Labour on it.. why, because he is likely one of those over $100k who wont get his tax cut, if Labour/Greens etc. win 23/9 !

    Reply
    • PDB

       /  July 12, 2017

      You missed the bit that said a person on only $26k won’t get tax relief even though they are currently overtaxed due to tax bracket creep……….funny that.

      Reply
      • Zedd

         /  July 12, 2017

        @pdb

        NO, I just noticed more.. that the biggest tax-cuts go the wealthiest; as per usual under this; smug tory crowd.

        Reply
        • PDB

           /  July 12, 2017

          NO – you are being small minded and just looking at straight $’s rather than % and overall benefits to those on lower incomes.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  July 12, 2017

            Yes & no. There are some who need it, and some who don’t.

            Reply
            • High Flying Duck

               /  July 12, 2017

              Whether they need it or not, it is their money that has been taken by the Government through bracket creep in the first place. Redressing that balance while adding more to the pot for those in need through WFF & accommodation supplements seems eminently fair.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              What do you do for a crust & what’s your total annual income?

            • High Flying Duck

               /  July 12, 2017

              Not sure how relevant the question is Gezz. I do well enough to live in Auckland and own a house big enough for the family, but I have sacrificed a lot to get there – haven’t had a proper holiday in over 8 years. I watch every penny. And I work 10 hour days & often weekends to earn & pay the taxes that some people want to give away.

              To me it is a philosophical thing – see my post in your argument with Al for more on that. But to my mind a hand up and reward for work beats hand outs every time, both materially and for self esteem and mental wellbeing.

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              Yes. I understand that. I worked hours like that too for about 20 years. Only one income. Wife couldn’t work because of health issues. Saved, spent nearly nothing on entertainment. Burned out three times. I own a big townhouse mortgage-free, probably worth $400k odd. My current total annual income is around $25k & my savings are depleting so that’ll drop. I decided to have a long break when my wife died after resigning at 50 because I was exhausted working all hours & looking after her when I got home & snapping at her. I looked after her fulltime for 5 years once she needed full-time care for everything, including her dialysis, done for her. They were laying off staff over 50 in the department I worked in & straight after her funeral they came after me to do contract work but I’d had enough of the endless restructuring & disastrous management I’d been working with, & I don’t need to work if I live frugally, so I’ve retired early. So I’m quite lucky, in a way, I suppose.

              Why it’s relevant is what your job & income & education & qualifications & skills & abilities, any legacies, & those of your partner, as well as your physical & mental health, any kids and family obligations, your personality or nature – they all affect where you are in life now.

              So, what do you do, and what’s your total income? I want to see where you are on the prosperity ladder & where you are coming from with your comments. I don’t know you from Adam, I don’t see what the problem is.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  July 12, 2017

              That’s quite a life you’ve led there Gezza – and quite a few scars gathered along the way. I’m glad the sense of humour has stayed with you through it all, as from what I have picked up things are not exactly roses even now.
              I’m not big on posting personal information online. I’d be happy for you to know who i am in another way if you really want to know, but I wont be posting details here.
              I enjoy trying to decipher people from their posts – Mefro, Blazer, Parti, Trav, Missy & you.
              And I probably have a completely wrong image in my mind of all of you.
              Al is an open book so no need to think too hard there.
              I don’t know Adam either so I can’t help you there.

              Don’t you think knowing who a person is can colour your opinion on what they say.
              Does the validity of what is said change if a person is old or young, dark skinned or light, gay or straight, rich or poor – or worst of all from Palmerston North?

            • Gezza

               /  July 12, 2017

              That’s fine. I do the same analysing posters over time. Nope it doesn’t colour my perception of the poster knowing what I asked it helps me assess how many different angles they look at an issue from before they pronounce their simple answers.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  July 12, 2017

          @Zedd, “the biggest tax-cuts go the wealthiest”

          So you are not satisfied with the real level of taxation of the rich (and nearly everyone else) under Labour which has increased due to bracket creep. You want to increase it further by failing to restore brackets to the same real values.

          I’m not surprised but you will find that the ordinary working folk don’t agree with you.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  July 12, 2017

            WTF’s Labour got to do with the situation National’s currently in charge of?

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 12, 2017

              Something Zedd can probably relate to. Trying to give him a grip on reality.

  5. Zedd

     /  July 12, 2017

    The thing most forget, in this ‘party political lolly scramble’ IF you really want a change, then stop listening to the Natz B-S/misinfo. (who only look after those at the top) & vote the pricks out on 23/9 !!! 🙂

    Reply
    • Corky

       /  July 12, 2017

      I’m going to offer Pete half a side of wild pork to kick you off this site, Zedd%. I hope Pete likes pork..and a few bristles.

      Reply
      • I love witnessing such unbridled pessimism and misery. The demons inspire my conservatism

        Reply
      • Zedd

         /  July 12, 2017

        LOL Corkey.. then who would you have to bitch & moan at ?

        PG told a few times, to ‘tone it down’ & I listened.. BUT he never said this is Tory only site & it seems that he supports different point of view ??

        Get a Grip DOOD/Doodette 😀

        Reply
        • Corky

           /  July 12, 2017

          ”LOL Corkey.. then who would you have to bitch & moan at ?”

          No, son. You have it wrong. I’m fascinated with a skeleton that writes.

          Reply
    • Zedd. I think you’re doing a good job convincing even gezza to vote right. 😙😙

      Reply
  6. How will you do this zedd? It’s all predicated on Peters falling into line.

    Why do people think Peters is the natural partner to Lab/Greens and the left really aren’t prepared to seriously discuss, evaluate or criticique what is a very strange potential partnering? He’s to the right of Atilla the Hun! Yes, he went with Clark, but she ran a pretty right of centre Labour and she knew how to wander to his vanities and handle him. Do you honestly think that Labour, under current leadership, is capable of this feat?
    Do you think Turei can hold her tongue and standby as her “principles” are trodden on? This is no match made in heaven and it’s silly to think otherwise. Anyone voting Lab/Greens needs to consider Peters MUST be on board. You only squeak in then, based on current polling.

    Current polling is not good for National and not good for Labour/Greens. They both look like they have to deal with Peters. He’ll be like the DUP in Nth Ireland, wanting the world for his electorate, if he gets it and I’m betting he’s prepared to swing either way depending on the baubles.

    As an aside it’ll be far better for all concerned if he doesn’t take Northland. It takes away his newly minted (2014) moral authority and it’ll be far cheaper to buy him.

    Reply

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