Open Forum – Sunday

16 July 2017

This post is open to anyone to comment on any topic that isn’t spam, illegal or offensive. All Your NZ posts are open but this one is for you to raise topics that interest you. 

If providing opinions on or summaries of other information also provide a link to that information. Bloggers are welcome to summarise and link to their posts.

Comments worth more exposure may be repeated as posts.Comments from other forums can be repeated here, cut and paste is fine.

Your NZ is a mostly political and social issues blog but not limited to that, and views from anywhere on the political spectrum are welcome. Some ground rules:

  • If possible support arguments, news, points or opinions with links to sources and facts.
  • Please don’t post anything illegal, potentially defamatory or abusive.

FIRST TIME COMMENTERS: Due to abuse by a few first comments under any ID will park in moderation until released (as soon as possible but it can sometimes take a while).

Sometimes comments will go into moderation or spam automatically due to mistyped ID, too many links (>4), or trigger text or other at risk criteria.

Free speech is an important principle here but some people who might pose a risk to the site will have to keep going through moderation due to abuses by a small number of malicious people.

A wide variety of topics and views are encouraged and welcomed, but some topics and some extremes may not be appropriate nor allowed.


  1. Who knew, but how sweet, albeit a tad predictable, is this?

    “Green Party co-leader James Shaw on his two mums’ amazing love story
    Green Party co-leader James Shaw opens up about life with two mothers and how they’ve become his biggest supporters.

    Green Party co-leader James Shaw has opened up about life with two mothers, revealing to Woman’s Day the moment his biological mum came out as a lesbian.

    Abandoned by James’ dad just before she was due to give birth, solo mother Cynthia Shaw later fell in love with fellow teacher Susanne Jungersen while they were working at the same school. She told her son when he was 12.

    James, 44, remembers, “She let me know what was going on and I just shrugged my shoulders. I knew Susanne as one of a fun group of teachers who’d always break out a guitar for singalongs, but I had my own regular teen angst to get on with.”

    • Corky

       /  July 16, 2017

      Oh,boy. I didn’t know James had this ace up his sleeve. Worth about 10,000 votes because it’s just so beautiful and cool.

  2. To Trumpenreich (you posted your comment in the wrong thread):

    Still censoring me I see, Pete.

    This is Stealth Banning.

    Make it impossible for a guy to engage meaningfully in debate on here by filtering posts with often long long debate killing clearance delays often topped off with heavy redaction and added snark.

    But not actually out right banning him so as to maintain fiction that “Free Speech operates here”.

    Call it what you like, but I’ve made it clear that some of what you post and the manner in which you do it is not welcome here, but you have kept ignoring that and keep trying similar things, like attacks on people and groups of people. If you persist then it won’t pass moderation, simple as that. And you have persisted.

    “Make it impossible for a guy to engage meaningfully in debate on here” is very ironic. You seem to have little or no intention of engaging in meaningful debate, you promote your agenda and attack anyone who doesn’t agree. You even attack people who haven’t disagreed but you claim they have different views.

    Any practical application of free speech also involves responsibilities, something you have a problem with.

    In providing a forum for relative freedom to speak here I choose to consider also the freedom to speak without risk of being unfairly attacked and deterred from speaking. I think that your approach can act as a deterrent to others speaking freely. So I choose to support common good freedoms over your individual expectation that you can say what you like here.

    Unlike most forums I suspect, I have kept giving you an opportunity to speak here if you don’t threaten the freedom of others. That may or may not continue because i can’t be bothered arguing with you over it. If you don’t like it here try somewhere else. If you have abused your opportunities elsewhere you always have the option of setting up your own free speech forum and saying what you like there.

  3. Corky

     /  July 16, 2017

    A Sunday Newspaper is running a story about Pacific Island prison officers` claiming racism because they are always picked first to handle emergency situations.

    Of course that is probably true because Island boys are general much stronger than other officers. They can take more punishment and they have something in common with Polynesian prisoners.

    Of course should one of these officers be killed, dealing with the family would be an easier experience for authorities. So there may be a little bit of racism.

    In a similar vain, I believe Iwi liaison officers should be disestablished. The law should be the law, without favour to race or social position. When Police start taking social considerations into account, you get racist pricks like this crawling out of the woodwork.

  4. sorethumb

     /  July 16, 2017

    The post-migration experiences of an urbanised Maori emphasised the losses of colonialism — the loss of land, of culture, of language. In connecting with other colonised groups on an international stage, new strategies and political claims were made and a critical text of the moment was provided by Donna Awatere’s Maori Sovereignty. Here the arguments of Frantz Fanon about the nature of colonisation and what needs to be accomplished in the process of decolonisation are repeated, along with Gramscian notions of contesting “white”/pakeha hegemony. It challenged many — pakeha, unionists, feminists, Maori leaders — on their willingness to sustain a British colonialism and to consider what the alternatives might be. It remains one of the most widely read books of a decade that marked a new stage in domestic politics and which prefigured the significance that was to be subsequently given to treaty issues and to tangata whenua ambitions.

    Three other best-sellers add different strands to these cultural politics. One was the appearance in 1985 of Michael King’s Being Pakeha which represented what was and remains a minority but still influential response from members of the majority group. The others were Jamie Belich’s The New Zealand Wars and a Victorian Interpretation of Racial Conflict (1986) and Claudia Orange’s The Treaty of Waitangi (1987). These marked the beginning of a surge in revisionist histories which, following in the steps of Dick Scott, sought to give attention to groups that had previously been silenced. The work of Charlotte MacDonald, Anne Salmond or Jock Phillips have given us a new version of history and a new sense of who we are as citizens of this country.

    These books from the 1980s exemplify the main elements of a New Zealand which is struggling with how cultural issues will shape its future. Iwi politics and increasingly those of non-iwi, urban Maori now play a significant part in national political debate with varying degrees of success as Jane Kelsey has noted. Nevertheless, the resolution of Treaty of Waitangi grievances along with the ambition to progress towards tino rangatiratanga are evident in a way that would have been inconceivable in this country in the 1960s. An important part of the resolution of treaty claims has been the revision of New Zealand history. A particular group from within the academy (broadly defined) and from the tangata whenua have helped rewrite how we should view this colonial history. And finally majority group members have been forced to respond to these developments and have done so in various ways.

    Post-modernism, critical white studies, post-colonial theory have informed currnet policies and ideologies. Or some might say, have got us into this mess? Meanwhile most people (including most politicians wouldn’t have a clue what they were up to – on the public teat)

    • sorethumb

       /  July 16, 2017

      And so I’m going to tell you a little bit about the doctrine, because it’s not optional to understand this. It’s absolutely crucial to understand this. You can’t underestimate the power of ideas, and also the power of words of course, because ideas are expressed in words. But you see, the postmodernists completely reject the structure of Western civilization—and I mean completely.
      With regards to the universities, I thought at one point that the best thing to do would be to cut their funding by 25%. Let them fight amongst themselves for the remnants. Because it would force the universities to decide exactly what’s important and what isn’t.

      So, I would say that the humanities and much of the social sciences has turned into a postmodern neo-Marxist playground for radicals. The scholarship is terrible. 80% of the humanities papers aren’t cited once! Once! And so what that means is they write papers for each other, and they sell them to libraries, and that’s how the publishers make their money. No one reads them but the publishers can print them because the libraries have to buy them. And they’re buying them with your tax money.

  5. sorethumb

     /  July 16, 2017

    An example is the material on museums. The author visited many and was obviously struck by the way in which some museums have worked hard to create a pakeha folk history which sustains certain myths about colonialism in New Zealand. I am sure that this is true of a number of the smaller museums, but little mention is made of the larger ones. As a consultant on the Te Papa Tongarewa project, I can affirm with some feeling that the issue of what aspects of pakeha history and identity were to be included was a very contested one. A number of those advising the project team wanted to see a much more critical understanding of the pakeha role in colonisation reflected in the museum’s displays, that those who are often ignored in historical presentations such as the single women migrants or working class pakeha should be represented alongside the politically important and economically affluent. The eventual result will be a compromise but the point is that there are critical and contradictory processes creating our national myths, with a variety of results. Not all of them produce a romanticised folk history. These nuances and disputes are not part of this book and there is a strong suspicion that only those examples that sustain the author’s thesis are included.
    mseum exhibits painting pakeha too favourably says the smiling professor.

  6. sorethumb

     /  July 16, 2017

    Professor Paul Spoonley
    New Zealand seems poised to become Aotearoa. The possibility of post-colonialism is there but so are other possibilities. Tino rangatiratanga holds out promise but it has begun to fade as the opportunities to exercise national sovereignty over resources of various kinds declines for all of us. The liberal moment for considering a progressive construction of the political responsibilities of pakeha has been burdened by the uncertainties and costs of the post-welfare state. The arrival of Asian capital and migrants has encouraged a fortress mentality and a middle-New Zealand racism. If cultural identity is to be privileged, it is more likely to be as a soft form of multiculturalism rather than a hard-edged biculturalism or as concessions in terms of political control or resource ownership.
    And so for the postmodernists, the world is a Hobssian (Thomas Hobbes) battleground of identity groups. They do not communicate with one another because they can’t. All there is is a struggle for power. And if you’re in the predator group, which means you’re an oppressor, then you’d better look out because you’re not exactly welcome, and neither are your ideas.
    Professor Jordan Peterson
    Does anyone get the top bit?