Maori versus Peters on referendum bottom line

I think NZ First have always had a policy to have a referendum on whether to retain the Maori seats in Parliament or not.

The only different yesterday was Winston Peters saying it was a non-negotiable policy this election. He repeated his party’s referendum policy but made it clear which outcome he wanted – scrapping the seats. The other outcome he no doubt wants is picking up some anti-Maori votes, an easy target against a minority.

Parliament has to balance the need to represent majority wishes with the need to protect minorities. Referendums are useful for some things but are a democratic risk when they attack a minority representation in Parliament.

RNZ:  Peter’s referendum call would sideline Māori – Fox

At his party’s annual convention in Auckland, Mr Peters said the Māori seats should go and promised a mid-term binding referendum on whether to abolish the seven seats. Voters would also decide whether to reduce the number of MPs in Parliament to 100.

“My strategy is to tell everyone out there that you will not be talking to New Zealand First unless you want a referendum on both those issues – mid-term after this election.”

Maori Party list MP Marama Fox (in Parliament through the overall party vote)…

…said the seats could go only when disparity was removed for Māori in this country.

“We have the highest … rates of youth suicide in the world. We have the highest rates of COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease) for Māori women in the world.

“We have a shorter life expectancy – and so on and so on and so on, and Winston Peters is merely politicking for votes and trying to take us back to the good old days of colonisation where you stick Māori in the corner and don’t give them a voice.”

Labour Maori electorate MP Kelvin Davis…

…said it was probably smart politics on Mr Peters’ part to attack Māori and politicians in the two-pronged referendum.

“The majority love hearing that sort of stuff: ‘we’re all New Zealanders, we should all be the same’.

“Well, the reality is, tangata whenua have different views, different values and we should be the ones that decide whether those seats stay or go.”

Shane Jones agreed with this earlier this month:

That was also the view of new New Zealand First candidate for Whangārei, Shane Jones, when asked earlier this month on TV3’s The Hui whether Māori seats should stay or go.

He said Māori seats should continue to exist “as long as people of Māori extraction remain on them and want them to continue”.

I think that’s a fair position. As long as every vote is equal as it is under MMP then I don’t have a problem with whether we have Maori electorates or not – in fact if it gives Maori better representation that’s a good thing.

The rest of us should look at how to improve our own representation. Our best way of doing that is by tactical voting in general elections, not in voting away a minority’s preference for their own representation.

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65 Comments

  1. Reply
    • Reply
    • Reply
      • Gezza

         /  July 17, 2017

        I’m voting Maori Party, thanks to Winston. Sorry Andrew. Better leader … er … luck … next time.

        Reply
        • sorethumb

           /  July 17, 2017

          Reporting Ranginui Walker’s death, TVNZ chose to highlight his critique of New Zealand’s immigration policy, showing a clip of Walker saying “Close the immigration door completely… I object to people from all those countries coming here… If that trend continues, we will ruin New Zealand. We will make it just like any other part of the world” – see: Ranginui Walker hits out at the volume of immigrants coming into NZ.
          Thanks Maori Party

          Reply
      • Pete Kane

         /  July 17, 2017

        And there will be plenty of Labour voters happy to see the end of the Maori Seats. Not much electoral logic, I know, from those seeking a Labour led Govt.

        Reply
  2. Corky

     /  July 17, 2017

    ”We have the highest … rates of youth suicide in the world. We have the highest rates of COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease) for Māori women in the world.”

    That’s one reason the Maori seats should go. Those who hold these seats are on the whole worthless because they never tell Maori some home truths..

    Like Maori women who smoke themselves, and their unborn babies to death.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 17, 2017

      Those who hold these seats are on the whole worthless because they never tell Maori some home truths..

      And then go on tv and very publicly nearly scrag the sleazy PR rep for the tobacco industry because his product has far too many of her people hooked & it’s killing them. Ya talkin shit, bro.

      Reply
      • Corky

         /  July 17, 2017

        CHOICE:

        An act of choosing between two or more possibilities:. “the choice between good and evil”

        What gets me is the ignorance( in this day and age) regarding the harm smoking can do to babies.

        That’s why I have little time for Maoridom.

        https://researchspace.auckland.ac.nz/handle/2292/17823

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  July 17, 2017

          Garn. There’s lotsa reasons you have little time for Maoridom, bro.
          Chill.

          Reply
          • Corky

             /  July 17, 2017

            We must pace ourselves, Gezza. Big guns should come out closer to the election. I’m chilled, trust me. No matter which way this election goes, I’m a winner. I admit that makes me smug.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              You sure? Not just an inate trait, Corks?

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Bugger. Shoulda checked.
              * Innate
              Sorry Corks.

            • Corky

               /  July 17, 2017

              No,I have too may questions regarding life to be smug. I’m only smug about the upcoming election result.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Righto. 👍

        • Corky

           /  July 17, 2017

          Don Brash seemed head shy. I notice Fox, in true socialist fashion, turned to invective
          She is a screaming racist in my opinion.

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  July 17, 2017

            There’s a lot of them about. It’s the quiet ones I don’t like.

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  July 17, 2017

            They’re not picking the right mix of candidates yet. Maori party. Scrappers & koros have their place but they need a few budding Statesmen or Stateswomen. They’ll be there. They just have to break thru the old guard.

            Reply
        • Marama came across as shrill

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  July 17, 2017

            I’ll have a listen in a minute. Don often comes across as dense.

            Reply
            • Nothing changes there. I’ve never seen her as shrill before though

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Big ups to Marama, imo. Bloody hell, she laid it all out logically & clearly & that’s what I’ve been saying for some time. Never mind that she got a bit cranky wuth that silky old culturally-biased dense snob Brash. He’s wrong. She’s right. If broken Maori want get up off their knees & pick themsleves up & get an education & be doctors, businesspeople, lawyers, dentists, Prime Ministers one day – because they’re Maori & Kiwi – Maori need to vote Maori Party.

              The other parties have made the Maori seats worthless for the very reasons Marama says! The Maori Party is quietly (well, you know Marama – sometimes loudly!) bringing Maori pride & Maori achievement together again – at last. I’m not even Maori. And I’m Party Voting Maori Party.💪🏻 💪🏾

            • Corky

               /  July 17, 2017

              I’m sad to hear that, Gezza. This will effect our tenuous relationship.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017
            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              @ Corks.
              * affect, not effect – learn ya own bloody language properly, bro (no offence).

              Listen to those words in that song matey. We’ve gotta keep talkingwith each other, Maori & Pakeha. And we’ve gotta listen. We’ve got 150+ years of history together. It’s not all pretty. But we both want the same things. To stand tall in our own country & be justly proud of who we are, where we come from, what we’ve got, & where we’re going – together!

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              We’ll get nowhere just talking AT & ABOUT each other – and what’s WRONG with each other. We can work it out.

            • Corky

               /  July 17, 2017

              I’ll stick with ”effect” on this one if you don’t mind Gezza.

              That’s a patriotic whaikorero you have written. However, too much water under the bridge for me to be part of your equation. I have no time for Maoridom. If I saw a concerted effort by Maori to change…as Europeans are reluctantly doing because they realise the days of ‘white is right’ are well and truly over, I may reconsider. t takes two people to form a partnership. Maori aren’t stepping up.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Your last sentence. There’s *some* wisdom in those words. It’s a two way street.

          • Gezza

             /  July 17, 2017

            Can’t expect them all to sound as grunty as Helen trav. Can’t even imagine the Clarksta going koochie koochie to a baby.

            (Closest I could find to coochie coochie):

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Hey patu – if you’ve never heard this one – have a lsten & gimme ya reckons, bro. Always ticks ALL the boxes for me. 🎸 👍

  3. sorethumb

     /  July 17, 2017

    I can see how in one way it is wrong not to have Maori seats however it is alos wrong not to be one people and there has been a toxic barrier thrown up between Maori and Pakeha thanks to post modernism, post colonial studies, critical white studies.
    ———
    “The post-migration experiences of an urbanised Maori emphasised the losses of colonialism — the loss of land, of culture, of language. In connecting with other colonised groups on an international stage, new strategies and political claims were made and a critical text of the moment was provided by Donna Awatere’s Maori Sovereignty. Here the arguments of Frantz Fanon about the nature of colonisation and what needs to be accomplished in the process of decolonisation are repeated, along with Gramscian notions of contesting “white”/pakeha hegemony. It challenged many — pakeha, unionists, feminists, Maori leaders — on their willingness to sustain a British colonialism and to consider what the alternatives might be. It remains one of the most widely read books of a decade that marked a new stage in domestic politics and which prefigured the significance that was to be subsequently given to treaty issues and to tangata whenua ambitions.”
    ——-

    A particular group from within the academy (broadly defined) and from the tangata whenua have helped rewrite how we should view this colonial history. And finally majority group members have been forced to respond to these developments and have done so in various ways.
    http://nzbooks.org.nz/1996/non-fiction/some-mythical-pakeha-paul-spoonley/
    Has identity politics been good for Maori?
    Has multiculturalism been good for Maori?

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 17, 2017

      Multi-culturalism hasn’t. Identity politics has. Without it they might not be getting the apologies & settlements they’re owed.

      Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  July 17, 2017

        Multiculturalism has hurt Maori due to it’s underlying philosophy that all groups are equal and the celebration of difference. The notion “we are all migrants” was part of the multicultural initiative. Maori also have a stake in Pakeha (being mixed ancestry). The post-colonialists have attacked Pakeha ethnicity whereas Michael King argues:
        “In the new edition of Being Pakeha, I go on to say that, as another indication of how far Pakeha culture has become indigenous, it is only right to see the macrocarpa and the wooden church as being as much emblematic of the New Zealand landscape and human occupation of it, as the meeting house and the cabbage tree. ”
        ………
        Tell me how this doesn’t side line Maori?:

        “for multiculturalism to succeed identities need to be transformed. And, importantly, as Kymlicka suggests, this transformation applies not only to the minority but also to the majority. Indeed, perhaps the major identity transformation is required from members of the majority as their attributes are, as a rule, the same as the ones that define the national identity. Minorities need to be written into the self-definition of the national identity such as to imbue them with existential legitimacy as citizens in parity with the majority.”
        “We are a nation of migrants”
        …….
        Spoonley is a sociologist by profession, but a people—Watcher by choice. He steadily interrupts himself to comment on people we pass by; who they are, what they’re doing, what they look like: “Those are Iranis or Iraqis… Pasifika over there on your right… Look at the height of this guy… What’s he doing hitchhiking like that?”
        When he can’t figure out where a group of people are from, he stops to ask. “Philippines,” says a young man, swatting away a fly.
        “This is a gateway city,” says Spoonley, walking on. “Basically two—thirds of all migrants come in to Auckland and stay in Auckland. You’ve got the earlier waves, Pasifika next to us here, and more recent waves. Some of these will be refugees, some of these will be business and skilled migrants.”
        The catalyst for the new New Zealand was the 1987 Immigration Act. Under it, immigration selection criteria changed from a focus on ease of assimilation into a white, Anglo—centric culture to a policy that most prized capital and skills.
        Two hundred and thirteen different ethnic groups now live in New Zealand. One in eight New Zealanders is an Asian. As recently as 2006, it was one in 11.
        https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/our-new-society/

        Maori can have all the seats they want but respect is earned not inherited.

        Reply
        • sorethumb

           /  July 17, 2017

          Here’s how identity politics works:
          Intersectionality classifies social categories of race, class, gender and sexual orientation into a hierarchy of victimhood that decides how you should be treated. If you are a black lesbian, for example, you outrank a black straight man and your view must be treated with more care and weight than that of the black straight man. More importantly, since society somehow classifies you as “lesser” than the black straight man, you are incapable of ever doing anything to victimize that black straight man — social powerlessness means that your individual victim status never changes.
          …..
          So Maori are the champion victims. It doesn’t matter that Scots may have been victims of the clearances or whatever. Identity politics has focussed Maori on what’s owed them

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  July 17, 2017

            So it should. They’re owed!

            Welfarism, neoliberalism, running down of regional economies & jobs, & family dysfunction have all caused disaster for many who have disconnected from their community & marae, & need to be faced up & tackled as separate issues – but that’s separate from what was wrongly done, & wrongly taken, & what’s therefore owed, to each separate Maori nation.

            Maori are New Zealanders. They are both.

            Reply
            • sorethumb

               /  July 17, 2017

              That is modern industrial society. To achieve efficiency we specialise and as we specialise we separate.
              Economic realities markets signal what is needed in the regions. How much central government should they have? Should Oamaru get a container port?
              Tariana Turia said her tribe has received 1.5% of what was taken and future generations will come back for more. That is the nature of Maori demands: we were here first: you never bought NZ from us etc,etc. All concessions will be a drop in the bucket.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Nope that won’t happen. They know that. She’s got a point. But she’s from one tribe, one bation. There are dozens of others.They’re schooling up, they’re not sitting on their arses moaning. The pakeha-haters & ne’er do wells – their people will get sick of them & tell them to shaddup & move on: that they want to celebrate being Maori AND Kiwi, & going for it – making their own & their mokos futures soar into the best of both worlds.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Damn! *bation = nation.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 17, 2017

              Since when did “we were here first” rule in Maoridom? Who could kill who ruled first.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Fark Alan. Wake up & smell the covfefe. Yaw & my ancestors were doing the same farking thing like, for 2,000 years. They were still at it bloody wholesale in the 20 th Century. Some could argue they still are in other parts of the bloody world. Maori caught up with the idea of stopping it for something better a bloody sight quicker than our forebears did mate. And they got shafted for it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 17, 2017

              So we agree that “we were here first” is a load of crap as an argument, G? Especially as the population density was so low that actually no-one was in most places.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Only if you agree I can build a house & fence it off & keep you out because its mine up on your land anywhere where you haven’t got one.
              And I can do the same on DOC & any crown-owned land that isn’t in constant daily use for living on with streets & houses n stuff. Are we agreed on that?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 17, 2017

              Sure so long as you agree I can shoot you if I have a musket and you don’t.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Done, if you agree I can bring a mate’s .303 Lee Enfield.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 17, 2017

              No. Didn’t exist in 1840.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Gattling gun?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 17, 2017

              Nope, 1860. You can have a mere.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Stuff that! I’m shipping up an Armstrong & arriving at night.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  July 17, 2017

        Those who were owed the apologies and settlements died a century ago. Those who are getting them now are free-riders at the top of the tribal trees. Most Maori are getting nothing via the settlements.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  July 17, 2017

          Wrong about the first bit, but you’ll never see that so ok, we differ. No point wasting time debating that. Re who’s getting the cream from the settlements, watch what happens when the newly educated kids, proud of who they are, work that out & decide to do something about it in the iwi.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  July 17, 2017

            Been waiting a century and a half for merit to take over from heritage in Maoridom, G. No sign of it yet. Seems to have been going backwards.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              yeah, I dunno. How many marae committee meetings have you been to in the different hapu areas up there in the last year, what were they all discussing, what goals & projects etc were they working on, what progress was being reported back?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 17, 2017

              Still squabbling over who is allowed to represent them at the WT and whether a PM should be allowed to speak on their marae, G.

            • Gezza

               /  July 17, 2017

              Not those Charlies – what about other marae up there?

  4. sorethumb

     /  July 17, 2017

    Jordan Peterson
    And so I’m going to tell you a little bit about the doctrine, because it’s not optional to understand this. It’s absolutely crucial to understand this. You can’t underestimate the power of ideas, and also the power of words of course, because ideas are expressed in words. But you see, the postmodernists completely reject the structure of Western civilization—and I mean completely.
    http://www.thesmallestvoice.com/jordan-peterson-postmodernism-how-and-why-it-must-be-fought/

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  July 17, 2017

      Welll .. stuff the post-modernists. They might, but the rest of us don’t. 💪🏼💪🏽

      Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  July 17, 2017

        What this country badly misses is moderate academics of the stature of Michael King [who, incidentally died after the brakes failed on his car] Remember also, Dr Greg Clydesdale removed from Massey for stating facts about the benefits of immigration “gentle beach culture” “disadvantage Maori” etc. Ostensibly it was poor quality work, but everything he said has proved correct.
        ………
        Jordan Peterson again
        So, I would say that the humanities and much of the social sciences has turned into a postmodern neo-Marxist playground for radicals. The scholarship is terrible. 80% of the humanities papers aren’t cited once! Once! And so what that means is they write papers for each other, and they sell them to libraries, and that’s how the publishers make their money. No one reads them but the publishers can print them because the libraries have to buy them. And they’re buying them with your tax money.
        ……..
        And superdiversity is described as a “slippery slogan” – nothing academic about it.

        Reply
  5. Patzcuaro

     /  July 17, 2017

    There must be more important issues to highlight in the coming election. Whether we have Maori electorates won’t but food on the table or improve the infrastructure, education and health outcomes.

    It is just a distraction from the important issues facing the country to get Peters a few more votes.

    Reply
  6. John Schmidt

     /  July 17, 2017

    The advantage to the main parties is that if a change occurred its NZ First whose name is all over it not the major parties making it a bit more palatable for the major parties to agree.

    Reply
  1. Maori versus Peters on referendum bottom line — Your NZ – NZ Conservative Coalition

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