Winston’s referendums “daft” and “dangerous”

Winston Peters has said that having binding referendums on the Maori seats in Parliament and the number of MPs in Parliament is non-negotiable. Sort of. Winston-speak means anything can change if it suits him.

RNZ:  Peter’s referendum call would sideline Māori – Fox

At his party’s annual convention in Auckland, Mr Peters said the Māori seats should go and promised a mid-term binding referendum on whether to abolish the seven seats. Voters would also decide whether to reduce the number of MPs in Parliament to 100.

“My strategy is to tell everyone out there that you will not be talking to New Zealand First unless you want a referendum on both those issues – mid-term after this election.”

That effectively rules out both Labour and the Greens on the Maori seats. National has a policy to do away with the Maori seats but that’s on the back burner as they make use of Maori Party votes to maintain a majority.

But in The trouble with Winston Peters’ referendums Andrew Geddis says that “One is daft and the other is daft and dangerous”.

First, reducing the number of MPs from the current 120 to 100.

Even if you believe that voters generally should get a greater direct say on public policy, these are particularly silly things to promise a vote on.

Take the number of MPs. Asking people if they would like fewer politicians has some immediately obvious appeal. So, it’s little surprise that at a 1999 non-binding citizens initiated referendum, 81.5% of voters approved of reducing the number of MPs to 99.

But a parliamentary backgrounder at the time of that referendum showed that there really was no justification for such a reduction in parliamentary numbers. That message then was echoed by Parliament’s Justice and Electoral Committee in a 2006 report on a members’ bill proposing to cut MP numbers in line with the referendum result:

“The current number of 120 members ensures proportionality and diversity in Parliament and thus contributes to its effectiveness; and we consider it essential that these benefits are not compromised. We do not consider that New Zealand is over-represented compared with other countries, especially given that it is a unicameral system.”

And the proposal is even dafter now than when it was when mooted at the end of the 1990s. Parliament last had 99 MPs back in 1993, prior to MMP’s introduction. At that point New Zealand’s population was 3.6 million, meaning we had one MP for every 36,363 people.

Today, our population is 4.8 million. If we want to use the apparently halcyon pre-MMP days as our baseline, today’s Parliament actually should have 132 MPs on a straight population growth basis.

So going the other way and reducing the number of MPs and would significantly reduce our representation.

Second, whether to retain the Māori seats in Parliament.

Similarly, his call to allow voters to decide the future of the Māori seats is superficially attractive. However, it ignores the fact that the five-yearly Māori electoral option already provides a de-facto referendum on this question.

During this option period, every voter of Māori descent can choose whether to be on the Maori or General electoral roll. If enough Māori voters decide to switch from the Māori to the General roll, then the Māori seats automatically will cease to exist.

Instead, 55% of all Māori voters prefer to be on the Māori roll. That point really needs emphasising; a majority of those Māori enrolled to vote consciously have chosen that the Māori seats should continue.

Peters now is proposing the non-Māori majority will get to decide the future of these seats for Māori. That is just a really, really bad idea. Putting aside the sheer injustice of the proposal, it is a recipe for divisive social conflict.

Peters thrives on promoting divisive issues. There’s votes in it, and his priority is getting votes, not what’s democratically sound.

Geddis has A little bit more on Winston’s proposed referendums:

Peters is flat out lying about the Māori seats. Today he told RNZ’s Morning Report that:

The vast majority of Māori, entitled to be on the Māori roll, are on the general roll.

Here’s the actual statistics from the Electoral Commission at the end of the 2013 Maori Electoral Option period (the last time that voters of Māori descent got to choose which electoral roll to be on).

At that time, there were 228,718 voters on the Māori roll, or 55% of all voters of Māori descent. On the general roll there were 184,630 voters of Māori descent, or 45% of that cohort. So far from the “vast majority” not being on the Māori roll, a small but significant majority of Māori voters positively have chosen to do so. And by making that choice, they thereby indicate their support for the Māori seats continuing in the future … because the more Māori on the Māori roll, the more such Māori seats there are.

He also has two additional reasons why the thinks it is bad to reduce the number of seats in Parliament from 120 to 100.

First of all, even if the number of parliamentary seats were cut to 100, the number of electorates would remain at 71. This is because the statutory formula that provides that number is entrenched – you can’t change it except by a 75% vote of MPs or a separate, stand alone referendum.

I guess Parliament could get enough support to change that.

That means there would only be 29 list seats to apportion in order to create overall proportionality in an MMP Parliament. And this simply isn’t be enough to do so – we will frequently see Parliaments that are distorted by “parliamentary overhangs” where parties win more electorate seats than their share of the party vote actually entitles them to.

Furthermore, at present there are 27 Ministers in the executive branch, or 22.5% of the total number of MPs. Cut the size of Parliament to 100, and that executive branch becomes some 27% of total MPs – tightening the stranglehold that it already applies to the legislative branch.

So cutting the number of MPs to 100 will not only damage how MMP functions, but it will lead to even greater executive dominance of Parliament as an institution.

So there are obvious problems with the proposed referendums.

There is also no guarantee National would agree to having them, and Labour and Greens would seem to rule out considering it.

And the reality is that Peters is unlikely to be able to insist on all his bottom line policies. He is extremely unlikely to get anywhere near a majority say in a coalition.

See  Number of Electorates and Electoral Populations: 2013 Census  –  Media Release

140 Comments

  1. Alan Wilkinson

     /  July 18, 2017

    How does anyone,know how many Maori are on the general roll? Or even how many Maori live in NZ? There is no definition of how genetically Maori you have to be to be Maori so anyone can be anything by self declaration or failure to do so. The whole thing is just absurd.

    • Gezza

       /  July 18, 2017

      Details later.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  July 18, 2017

        … and it’s advocates are wordless and legless.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  July 18, 2017

          Damn malingering apostrophes.

        • Gezza

           /  July 18, 2017

          You could always lodge an official complaint …

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  July 18, 2017

            I prefer unofficial complaints. I can use more invective and don’t have to put up with silly stamps.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              I’m guessing your Mrs has got fed up & banned you from grizzling all the time at home, Alan? So you come here when you want to have a bloody whinge. Am I right?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Nope, I come here to have a laugh and usually get some for both of us. I thought you were busy. How come you’ve got time for guessing but not for trying to defend your silly stamps and even sillier racist franchises?

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              I’m sitting on the sofa eating lunch & having a read through the usual blinkered, one-eyed bollox you’ve been posting. I figure it’s probably most sensible to wait until you’ve finished all your usual ranting on the topic, & then just demolish it all once, to save time. You just carry on, Al. I can wait.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Ok, so when you say you are busy it really means you are lying on the couch feeding your face.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Nah I went up to NW for supplies. I’m sitting, but yeah, I am downing a turkish roll, must admit. Had trouble with the PRC this morning over her annexing my car park for 2 nights without asking. Got a load of bullshit in reply to my text. Gave her 2 hours to move it or I would. Not looking quite so cutely at me now. She’s been here for 2 years, married a Kiwi bloke. She knows tthe bloody etiquette.

  2. David

     /  July 18, 2017

    I can live with 120 MPs but Maori seats are unnecessary now we have MMP, referendum result is a foregone conclusion though and it will be inevitably an ugly process.

    • Most of a conservative centrist mindset want rid of them – as did the Commission of Enquiry. They’re not needed nor are they necessary for effective Māori representation in this day of MMP.

      The Nats will have no trouble accommodating Peters’ bottom line.

    • Pete Kane

       /  July 18, 2017

      “it will be inevitably an ugly process”
      I don’t think there’s much question about that Dave.

      • Nothing wrong with ugly if it moves any given situation to resolution.

        We need the tough conversations in NZ and should not resile from dialogue. I think we need to respectfully and productively address disparity where it exists and it exists within many pockets of Maoridom.

        Maori seats are NOT the answer. There’s been no significant improvement in most social markers and most importantly life expectancy (health), educational attainment and imprisonment. They’re linked and thats where we start.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  July 18, 2017

          Maori seats foster separateness, inferiority and entitlement. A sad relic of failed strategy.

          • We’re all too politically correct to have the conversation. Im sure the Nats will hold their nose, but be well pleased Winnie can do the dirty work for them.

          • Gezza

             /  July 18, 2017

            See above. Currently busy. Will get back to you.

  3. Loki

     /  July 18, 2017

    It would be an interesting exercise to calculate the total cost of ALL people in elected positions in this country. From councillors to the PM.
    If Winston wants 20 percent he should get Lusk working on that number now.
    Ben councillors in non metro areas are on more than 40k plus allowances and expense.
    The number will be huge.
    We must be the most “represented” democracy on earth per capita.

    • Lol. Winnie is indeed a hypocrite, however his supporters are quite blind to it. 😀

  4. Of course they won’t, Labour seems to think they own the Maori seats. And if they want Maori votes they have to be seen to be supporting the seats.

    • Chuck Bird

       /  July 18, 2017

      Of course Little would say that. He wants Labour to get most or all of the Maori seats. If the Maori Party gets them all but NZF has the balance of power Little would agree with a referendum.

  5. Corky

     /  July 18, 2017

    If the Maori seat go it will be a pretext for Maori stirrers to start civil unrest.

    I would much prefer Winston to hold a referendum making it compulsory for Maori medical students to be held to the same entry requirements as European students. Now that’s a life saving referendum, Winnie.

    • Brown

       /  July 18, 2017

      I recall Ben Carson saying in his book that some patients were initially dubious of his medical ability because he was presumed to have got through at a lower standard because he was black. His white colleagues cleared that up pretty quickly, knowing he was a class act, by saying it was Ben or no-one

      • Corky

         /  July 18, 2017

        Your point please?

        • While admissions and the pathway to same might be easier they don’t get through without passing

          • Corky

             /  July 18, 2017

            Pass- with minimum marks, and the odd looking the other by their teachers.
            It must be remembered the entrance protocols are a test in themselves. Those are dumbed down a little for Maori. So how do they pass their final tests?

      • Gezza

         /  July 18, 2017

        @ Corks. It wouldn’t be a pretext, bro. It’d be a fakin good reason.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  July 18, 2017

          It would be counter-productive as well.

          • Gezza

             /  July 18, 2017

            I agree. Abolishing the Maori seats is a decision for those on the Maori Electoral Roll only. Winston’s being an utter arsehole, appealing to the often unkthinking, unknowing, monolingual white supremacists amongst us. How many of our soldaten are Maori, btw? Anybody know?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              I knew you would run off in that direction. No, civil unrest in response would create a counter-productive backlash.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Exactly my point. These dog-whistling old reprobates should leave it alone instead of stirring up division amongst the racists & bigots on both sides.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              What do you expect when you maintain a racist franchise? You create racists.

            • sorethumb

               /  July 18, 2017

              Winston’s referendums “daft” and “dangerous”

              So are Maori Studies departments
              “Here the arguments of Frantz Fanon about the nature of colonisation and what needs to be accomplished in the process of decolonisation are repeated, along with Gramscian notions of contesting “white”/pakeha hegemony. It challenged many — pakeha, unionists, feminists, Maori leaders — on their willingness to sustain a British colonialism and to consider what the alternatives might be. ”
              http://nzbooks.org.nz/1996/non-fiction/some-mythical-pakeha-paul-spoonley/

              Where did notions of racism come from?
              Massey Pro Vice Chancellor Professor Paul Spoonley:

              Racism is the ideological belief that people can be classified into ‘races’ … [which] can be
              ranked in terms of superiority and inferiority … racism is the acceptance of racial superiority … It is often used to refer to the expression of an ideology of racial superiority in the situation where the holder has some power. Thus prejudice plus power denotes racism in the modern sense … racism is essentially an attitudinal or ideological phenomenon. … A dominant group not only holds negative beliefs about other groups but, because of the power to control resources, is able to practice those beliefs in a discriminatory way … This ideological concept structures social and political relationships and derives from a history of European colonialism. The idea of ‘race’ has evolved from its use in scientific explanation (now discredited) and as a justification in the oppression of
              colonised, non European people
              https://medianz.otago.ac.nz/medianz/article/download/34/39

            • MaureenW

               /  July 18, 2017

              Touché, and correct

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              No, it’s not correct. Racism doesn’t necessarily imply or require a sense of superiority. An intent to dislike, harm or devalue suffices.

    • Patzcuaro

       /  July 18, 2017

      Do you want to get rid of the Rural quota for medicine as well? Both the Maori and Rural quotas are designed to fill gaps. I’m sure small town NZ would rather have a well trained doctor that got through on the Rural or Maori quota than no doctor

      • Patz. Can’t get your comparison. Māori seats are not delivering better outcomes

        • Patzcuaro

           /  July 18, 2017

          Will getting rid of the Maori seats necessarily deliver a better outcome. I think the emergence of a dedicated Maori party has delivered a better outcome. I don’t think Maori were well served when Labour had the almost as of right. Greater competition for the Maori will lead to better outcomes for Maori.

          On the medicine side I was just pointing out that there was a rural quota as well.

          I personally don’t see how removing the Maori Seats will produce better outcomes. All it will do is appease the white right.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  July 18, 2017

            Greater competition for Maori already existed in the general roll. The only place it didn’t exist was in the Maori protectorate.

            • Patzcuaro

               /  July 18, 2017

              With the advent of the Maori Party this has changed. Is there a bias against the Maori seats on the right due to the fact that they were “Labour” seats.

              It is great to see the number of MPs of Maori ancestry winning general seats but do they identify as Maori as much as the Maori electorate MPs?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              They don’t identify with Maori entitlement. That is their crime.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              I agree with you there Alan. You’re right. They should be ashamed of themselves.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              They probably think the same of you, G.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Yeah but they’re probably assholes Al. I’m not. As you know.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              So MPs with Maori ancestry in general seats are assholes and you are not? Sounds discriminatory to me.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Well, ok – probably not all of them. If you can give me a list I’ll have a bash at identifying which ones could be?

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              and you are not?

              Come off the bloody grass, Al. If I was an asshole there’s no way you’d have invited me up to your place for a holiday in November. So don’t start with that bloody nonsense.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Apply some elementary logic, G. If you are not, neither are the others.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Oh really? Well how many of them have you invited up to your place for a bloody holiday then?

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              And now I can’t find my bloody tyre pressure gauge! 😡

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Bugger it!

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              When you find it, test your blood pressure with it.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Don’t talk to me about bloody blood pressure!
              30 bloody years the bloody thing’s been in the same bloody place in the bloody car and I alwsys put it back in the same bloody place – the last bloody time I bloody used it I must have bloody put the bloody thing some bloody where else! I can’t bloody find it! 😡

            • Conspiratoor

               /  July 18, 2017

              G, I’m curious. In your world is it possible to be against separate maori seats yet not be a maori bashing racist?

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Not while I still can’t find my bloody tyre pressure gauge it bloody isn’t !

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Thank Christ ! I found the bloody thing ! I looked every bloody where & when finally I bloody gave up & thought I’d just have to nick smother one – I thort, what’s the odds the bloody thing fell off the bloody windowsill, out of the ziplock bag, & rolled under the dishes drying on the kitchen bench. Lifted up a bloody dinner plate AND THERE IT BLOODY WAS❗️

              Fat lot of bloody help you people were❗️😡

              I think I need a bit of a lie down. Maybe a rum & bloody coke.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              You said you put it in the car. How did it get to the windowsill?

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Because the bloody bag it was in had some other bits and bloody pieces like valvy-looking things and spikes & I wanted to remember to try and find out what they were bloody for ! And I bloody forgot ! Let it bloody go ! I’ve had it up to bloody here with you tonight & it’ll all just probably bloody go downhill from here !

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Don’t worry. Winston’s as vacuous and vacillating as you:
              https://yournz.org/2017/07/18/winstons-referendums-daft-and-dangerous/#comment-202919

              I think you and he deserve each other.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              For heaven’s sake man. What a load of balderdash. If anyone deserves Winston bloody Peters it’s you. Go to bed. You’re overwrought,

        • Gezza

           /  July 18, 2017

          Patz. Can’t get your comparison. Māori seats are not delivering better outcomes

          Yeah they are, trav. Marama covered it & explained how, in part, yesterday in that radio-interview with that arrogantly monocultural, narrow-minded, blinkered silly old duffer, Don Brash. (And on this topic, those are his good points.) And I very much doubt Maori would have had the settlements & the apologies due to them for wrongs done to them in the past if they didn’t have the Maori seats.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  July 18, 2017

            You mean the wrongs done to someone else in the past, possibly one of many distant ancestors.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Yes. The settlements remedy breaches of contract & still don’t fully cover all damages and liabilities, & compensation for crimes against their firebears – but they’re being negotiated & agreed between reasonable people in good faith. As they should be. These sorts of remedies & apologies for past history are quite common overseas as well, as a normal part of civilised diplomacy. Nothing to get wound up about. Big ups, I say. You know I’m right. You’re just being intransigent, as usual, imo. I’m wondering if maybe we should discuss this more pasdionately in December, when it probably would make more sense for me to rip into you like a mad dog?

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Sht!
              * firebears = forebears
              * pasdionately = passionately

              Apologies for my covfefes there.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Statute of limitations ruled out those contracts more than a century ago, G. If they actually ever existed in the first place. No problem with apologies. Big problem with making fat cats fatter for no good reason.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Honour never runs out Al. People just sometimes lose it in the pursuit of material gain.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Gotta go visit dad.
              1528 hours.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Honour died with those involved and responsible long ago, G.

          • I just need to look at the educational, life expectancy and imprisonment rates and their lack of relative change Gezz.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              So do they trav. And they are. That’s what whanau ora’s about.

              Al thinks honouring contracts is something you can ignore when you’ve outnumbered the other signatories. Al’s concept of honour is as narrow as his views on other things as well, apparently. What about you?

              If Al left his property assets to his kids & they got taken off them by force, & their kids couldn’t get them back – presumably he’d be ok with that because in a generation or two everyone should just forget about it. Is that what you think too?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Seven generations later, G. Get real.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Absolutely. Get stuffed.

            • Pete Kane

               /  July 18, 2017

              Trust the referendum papers are printed in Kiwiland.
              “NZ First T-shirts made in China, Winston Peters denies knowledge”
              http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/07/nz-first-t-shirts-made-in-china-winston-peters-denies-knowledge.html

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Looking forward to the outcome of all this nonsense showing who got stuffed, G.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Piss off Al. (No offence).

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Time you got busy again, G. I think your blood sugar is down.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              I’m having a swiss ham roll. But I don’t think that’s gonna help me find me bloody tyre pressure gauge. ☹️

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Tell the lady who swiped your car park she owes you a tyre pressure gauge.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Bloody tried it on. Bloody foreigners. Need to keep ya eye on em, obviously. Turn ya back on them, the next minute they’ll own all the bloody houses!

      • Corky

         /  July 18, 2017

        Well, that’s a hard question to answer. I don’t know of the rural quota for medicine so I can’t answer your question.

        As to doctors, again it’s a matter of perspective. From my perspective, I would rather have no doctor. Admittedly that’s a big call, but I always worry how many patients downstream may receive inferior treatment, or suffer death, because the doctor involved was held to a lower standard of ability than his European counterpart.

        • “Is there a bias against the Maori seats on the right due to the fact that they were “Labour” seats.”

          No, there’s a bias because they’re unnecessary under MMP and there’s no relative change in outcome for many Maori despite them and other race-based positive discrimination initiatives.

          It seems that the progress of “other” NZers advances are disguising those of Maori or that Maori are not doing any better. This is not right.

        • Patzcuaro

           /  July 18, 2017

          Slightly off topic but the rural quota is design to get students into medicine who come from the rural/provincial areas of NZ who maybe more likely to return to these areas as GPs. They may not have had the same educational opportunities as students from the main urban areas.

        • Conspiratoor

           /  July 18, 2017

          You should have stopped at the first para. Big calls like yours are easy until you need pain relief and then you might find you’re suddenly colour blind

          • Gezza

             /  July 18, 2017

            WTF does that mean? Just work up the bloody guts to say exactly what you mean.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Oo. Shit! 😱 Sorry. 😬 My mistake. Thought you were replying to patz. 😳 Embarrassmentez moi. 😰 🌹

              Quite right, c. Very much so. Wot c said. 👍

              Put that in ya pipe & bloody smoke it ,Corks. 😠

            • Conspiratoor

               /  July 18, 2017

              G, believe me when they wheel the fearless warrior corky into A and E with his life hanging in the balance he will discover there is nothing more beautiful than a dark skinned trauma doctor with 30 years experience

  6. sorethumb

     /  July 18, 2017

    Bear in mind, too, that underlying the criticism that voters will make ill-informed and impractical decisions is the unspoken fear that voters will just reject the policies of the politically-correct ruling liberal caste. The fear is that if you give the common people referendums they will only do what the Swiss did and vote against mosques having minarets. I am afraid I do not see why the decision should not be the people’s.
    http://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.co.nz/2014/07/david-round-democracy.html

    I’ve never trusted polls where the fox minds the chickens.

    Percentage of New Zealanders who say each
    of the factors below will have a position impact
    on New Zealand in the next 10 to 20 years.
    Immigration
    from Asia to
    New Zealand 48%
    http://asianz.org.nz/reports/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Perceptions-of-Asia-2015-Report.pdf
    see page 8

    Immigration hots up

    Percentage of New Zealanders who say each factor will have a positive impact on New Zealand in the next 10 to 20 years
    Immigration
    from Asia to
    New Zealand 51%
    http://www.asianz.org.nz/reports/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/nz_poa_asian_people.pdf

  7. sorethumb

     /  July 18, 2017

    The swamp thing Donald Trump talks about is the public service. I read something once which argued that germany and japan did well as they were defeated and had to rebuild their institutions.
    Kim Hill just oozes confidence…. I know it all. It is the confidence of being in control.

    • The people within Western bureaucracy are well entrenched. They do not like change and they love their high salaries and perks.

  8. Alan Wilkinson

     /  July 18, 2017

    Good ideas, philosophy and principles can be adopted by anyone from any race or heritage. More exclusive ones are usually problematic to both those excluded and included.

  9. MaureenW

     /  July 18, 2017

    I don’t understand the need for Maori Seats in Government, nor unelected Maori Boards in Councils. It surprises me that giving one racial group benefits that other racial groups don’t have, is not somehow racist.

    • Gezza

       /  July 18, 2017

      Busy @ moment. Details later.

      • MaureenW

         /  July 18, 2017

        Have they completed your evaluation G?
        Tell me more why you think NZ Government should have special seats for Maori? Is it because you think Maori are unable to obtain fair representation for themselves if they stand in the general seats?
        Why do Maori need to advocate for special policies for themselves over everyone else anyway?
        Should we have special seats for all racial groups on the same basis? If not, why not?

        • Gezza

           /  July 18, 2017

          I’ll cover it all later when all the Maori-bashers have finished their usual same-old rants Maureen. Patz is doing ok tossing back the red herrings & tiddlers meantime.
          1415 hours.

          • MaureenW

             /  July 18, 2017

            Maori-bashers? My son is 1/16th Maori – he doesn’t identify with needing special treatment because he happened to be born this way. He also doesn’t identify as being a privileged whitey because he has white European blood as well.
            Are you saying that people like myself who aren’t in favour of Maori seats are Maori bashers?

          • Gezza

             /  July 18, 2017

            Possibly. I’ll need to check the whole thread later to see what else you’ve said.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              The worst Maori bashers are those who teach some of them to feel different and inferior and resentful. Generally their peers, parents and rellies.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              I’d agree with that too, Al. There’s an “and” missing before your “Generally”, I reckon. We’re talking about Brash & co here, eh?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              No, all of that existed long before “Brash & co”.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Yes I know. A lot of them didn’t even realise how casual their racism was. They didn’t think they racists. They thought they were just ‘civilised’ & Maori having a different approach to some things were ‘lazy’ or ‘dumb’. My da, bless him, was like that. Raised on the notion that his lot had civilised Maori. When we used to all pile into the car with a picnic basket every coupla years and do the Summer “Round The Mountain” day, visiting all the little dairy & cheese factory & meatworks townships, dad’s old haunts in Taranaki, driving past all the pastures & milking sheds, he’d sometimes wave his hand towards some large stand or copse of bush & say “See that? That’s all Maori land. They never do anything productive with it.” Those same places are all incredibly valued little patches of native reserve forests now. As they were then.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Simplistic idealistic fantasy. Much Maori land stands idle because multiple inherited ownership maintained by the Maori Land Court creates rights without responsibility and makes it impossible to do anything with it and certainly unable to pay rates as everyone else has to. Much grows gorse. Has nothing to do with laziness. Everything to do with bad law trying to maintain a community that no longer exists, the participants being spread around the world.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              You’re too casual about this Al. Imo.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              It’s something they can decide, what to do with their land, Al. It’s got nothing to do with you. Mind your own business, not theirs. There’s no reason Maori can’t work their way thru the many issues they’ve got over the next decade & solve them & be able to be fully participating citizens who’re Iwi & Kiwi. They’ve got catching up to do. We should be encouraging that, not continually denigrating them & their culture & conflating the behaviour of lost ferals with those of educated, respected, members of justly proud Marae & communities. When you grow up & spend your whole lifetime having people look down their noses at you & tell you, your culture, your iwi, your whanau, & your while ethnic group are basically shit – what do you expect? To be fucken thanked for your well-intentioned help & advice about becoming a better white person?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              You are a long way away from it in the big bureaucratic smoke, G. The Maori I know are just ordinary folk getting on with their lives and no chance of seeing a cent of the Waitangi Tribunal harvests. But they do get messed around by the Maori Land Court crap.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              It’s something they can decide, what to do with their land, Al. It’s got nothing to do with you.

              Yes it has. It really pisses me off to see lives of my best friends and their family messed up by the Court’s tom foolery benefiting no-one but the bureaucracy that imposes it.

              There’s no reason Maori can’t work their way thru the many issues they’ve got over the next decade & solve them & be able to be fully participating citizens who’re Iwi & Kiwi.

              That’s just ignorance, G. The Maori I know are already fully participating citizens. They didn’t need anyone’s condescension to help them. And they are not responsible for the ferals that misdirected and mismanaged welfare has created.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              It really pisses me off to see lives of my best friends and their family messed up by the Court’s tom foolery benefiting no-one but the bureaucracy that imposes it.

              What the hell’s that all about? How many bloody cases are you tslking about that you know of. How long will that bloody story be evolving in painful tiny spurts of comments? Write a bloody guest post about it & then we can chew over any specific points worth enlarging or commenting on.

              The Maori I know are already fully participating citizens. They didn’t need anyone’s condescension to help them. And they are not responsible for the ferals that misdirected and mismanaged welfare has created.

              Well good on them, seriously – good on them. But what are they doing for their people? I hope they’re active on their marae committees bringing their skills & insights to any deliberations going on. Maori marae probably need a mix of intelligent, positive, success-oriented views as much as any other organisation does.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              No. Other people’s stories are theirs to make public if they wish, not mine. That’s a downside to real names.

              Of course these people are backbones of their communities and families in practical and emotional ways. But they have no say in the political machinations that go on.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              What political machinations? Just a catch phrase there.
              What’s the other side’s version of the event?

              You’re not exactly notable for looking at any issue from more than one angle, Alan.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              You seem to be mixing two separate matters – a) an individual family getting done over by the Court and b) Marae politics. In the first matter the only other side was the Court and its jurisdiction over their land.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Well if I am it’ll because you’re going on about both in the same sub-thread.

              Why not jump down the page, back tihe margin, & deal with one issue at a time?

              What’s the problem? How can the Maori Land Court have jurisdiction if it’s their land? And vice versa.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Feckin on-screen keyboard!
              *Why not jump down the page, back to the margin, & deal with one issue at a time?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 18, 2017

              Don’t think I’ll tell the story. Too easy to identify those affected.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              So all we know is you’ve got some mates with a story & you & they’ve got it in for the Maori Land Court? Brilliant ! Certainly won me over ! Not !

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 19, 2017

              Yep, that’s all you know. Except, curiously, Winston’s lawyer brother was in on the act trying to sort the Court out. Helped, but too little too late.

          • Corky

             /  July 18, 2017

            I’m the only Maori basher on this site. I will be off for the next two hours if you want to answer Maureen W.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Got an address for another expired washing machine, Corks?

            • Conspiratoor

               /  July 18, 2017

              G, have you twigged yet that brother cork’s bro stories exist only inside his fantasy world. Scratch the surface and youll likely find a lonely white guy with a closed mind and a heap of unhealthy prejudice.
              Notwithstanding he can spin a good yarn and hes up there in the raconteur stakes

  10. sorethumb

     /  July 18, 2017

    The idea of ‘race’ has evolved from its use in scientific explanation (now discredited)
    ….
    Then some are saying their has been enough time and seperation in challenging environments to drive difference.
    https://www.edge.org/response-detail/10376

  11. sorethumb

     /  July 18, 2017

    There’s no reason Maori can’t work their way thru the many issues they’ve got over the next decade & solve them & be able to be fully participating citizens who’re Iwi & Kiwi.
    ….
    Combine ethnicity + ideology [historical interpretations -postmodern – post colonial – anti enlightenment] with scarcity and society is no longer a democracy. Look at Thailand.

  12. Alan Wilkinson

     /  July 18, 2017
    • Gezza

       /  July 18, 2017

      Lol Now Winston’s got given a rude feckin shock & a reality check, I think is what you mean to say but can’t quite manage to. Serves the bastard right.

      • Gezza

         /  July 18, 2017

        As my sister’s Maori father-in-law, the toughest businessman & hard bargainer I ever met, & who we recently farewelled for the last time from this fair land, used to say – to car salesmen & shysters like Winston: “Come off it, mate – you can’t bullshit a bullshitter!”

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  July 18, 2017

        Glad to hear you’ll be voting for him now, G.

        • Gezza

           /  July 18, 2017

          Fark off Al. Once he’s in, everything’s up for change on a whim again. Man’s principles are so fecking elastic he could use them for bloody braces.

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  July 18, 2017

            A day ago you were all over him like a rash. He hasn’t changed. Still the same old crook he always was when you were about to vote for him.

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              All over him like a rash is such a gross distortion of what I said – that I might vote for NZ First, depending on their policy on who decides the fate of the Maori searts – I was embarrassed to even read that comment of yours above, Al? Feckin embarrassed. If if could go back & unread it & then truthfully say I never even saw it, I would. Have your lost the feckin plot or are you in need of a long hot soak in a hot tub?

            • Gezza

               /  July 18, 2017

              Sorry about the typos – it’s this flamin iPad & its bloody on-screen keyboard – all the bloody letters crash together cos the keys are too bloody close – just do ya best to work out what I meant.

              PS: I’ve put the bloody tyre pressure gauge back in the bloody car boot – who gives a damn what those other bits are for, it’s not like I’ve ever needed to bloody use them !

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 19, 2017

              Had the soak and was asleep long ago. Woke up to see you still fretting away here by yourself. Think you should frame the tyre pressure gauge and put it on the wall to remind you of the time you almost voted for Winston.

            • Gezza

               /  July 19, 2017

              What? I went to bed before blimmin midnight ! Y are yew still bangin on about this – at presumably some ungodly hour of the bleedin early morning? Did you get elbowed out of bed for constantly bloody whinging? Let it go man! You’re totally losing it ! The poor woman deserves better !

              PS: Will you still come & pick me up at the airport? – I’m not sure how safe it is to hitch-hike up that way, especially if I tell any bros whose place I’m staying at!

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  July 19, 2017

              All depends which bros you pick, G. Yep, I’ll be looking out for the NZF Made in China cap at the airport.

  13. Was that “apartheid” or was it “just Māori to vote”? What day is it people?

    Hic