Labour’s reaction to PREFU

I can’t find any official response from Labour after the release of the Pre-election Fiscal Update, but Jacinda Ardern has been talking to media.

NZH: Labour can still pay for policies despite softer economic outlook, Ardern says

The Labour Party is promising that it can still follow through on its core health, housing and education plans despite new forecasts showing the next Government will have less cash to spend than first thought.

Labour leader Jacinda Ardern said yesterday that her party could carry out its agenda without borrowing more money and without raising income tax, including the top tax rate – something which it had left the door open to but has now ruled out.

After becoming leader, Ardern said she wanted to put more emphasis on investing in health, social and education investment – though not all of these would require more funding.

Ardern said this was still affordable because her party would scrap National’s $2 billion tax cuts and bring down debt two years later than National’s target of 2021.

“Certainty there was some anticipation that [the surpluses] would be better, but that does not interrupt our plans.”

Despite the softer economic outlook, Ardern would still not rule out bringing forward the party’s free tertiary education policy, which would not be fully implemented until 2025.

Audrey Young: Jacinda Ardern moves swiftly to deny National more tax attacks

When it comes to tax, Labour’s new leader Jacinda Ardern has been relentlessly uncertain.

But very transparent in her uncertainty. She has not answered a question about a possible capital gains tax without emphasising how transparent she is being about not being able to give definitive answers.

She is honestly saying she doesn’t know if there would be a capital gains tax under a Labour Government, how much it would be, whether it would apply to small businesses, farms, and artwork, second properties, or whether there would be one at all.

“People deserve to know our direction of travel,” is how Ardern understated it to the Business New Zealand election conference.

Perhaps realising that that version of transparency was wearing a little thin, Ardern seized upon the statutory pre-election opening of the books (Prefu) to give a definitive answer about introducing a new top tax rate. No, she said within three hours of the books being opened.

Ardern stated that Labour would not include a top tax rate increase in their terms of reference for their proposed expert working group on tax. She also ruled out any increase to GST.

She has already said that a Capital Gains Tax on family homes would also be excluded from consideration.

This seems to mean that Labour will listen to tax experts after the election, but only to what they want to hear.

But there could be more on this, Labour have said they want to take time to go over the PREFU before releasing their final tax policy.

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75 Comments

  1. The nuts and bolts of the election campaign has arrived. This will be a real test of Ardern’s mettle. Her varied positioning on tax has been far from convincing or assuring so far.

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  August 24, 2017

      wouldn’t put too much weight in anything Audrey ‘bluey’ Young..has to say.As if National have ever been decisive and transparent.

      Reply
      • PDB

         /  August 24, 2017

        This election National have been very clear as to their spending/policies next term, including tax policy. The fact is Labour hasn’t.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  August 24, 2017

          pulled 10 billion out of the hat…and as usual are ‘gunna’ do this and ‘gunna do that in the year…2525!

          Reply
          • chrism56

             /  August 24, 2017

            They did not pull it out of the hat, but that never worried you Blazer, to whom truth is a stranger. It was clearly identified in budgets

            Reply
            • chrism56

               /  August 24, 2017

              Here is the proof you are a bullshit artist Blazer. The 2017 budget as reported by the Herald.
              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11863067
              “New roads and rail upgrades will suck up about a third of the government’s $32.5 billion infrastructure spending over the next four years, draining the coffers for the foreseeable future.”
              A third of 32.5 billion is about 10.5 billion. Now, what other “facts” are you going to dazzle us with?

            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              Says. .and rail. .you Are the bullshitter.

            • PDB

               /  August 24, 2017

              Wasting your time – ‘facts’ to Blazer are simply annoyances that break up a good story.

            • What a witty riposte blazer, well at least half of one.
              If you were even half competent, you would know that rail is about $550M of that spend, which when you allow for Herald maths still makes the original statement of mine correct.
              As PDB has also noted, you are a great Labour stalwart with no sense of either reality or truth. When confronted with anything that bursts your bubble, your only recourse is abuse. Really classy

            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              You call me a bullshit artist !…double standards.

    • Rob Hosking on the CGT

      “Capital gains taxes have always been regarded as a “third rail” of New Zealand politics – touch it and you fry, politically.

      Labour had a capital gains tax in its 2011 and 2014 election manifestos. It was regarded as one reason the party lost those elections, although there were myriad factors contributing to those defeats.

      Former leader Andrew Little certainly believed it was a big factor: There were too many would-be Labour supporters with an investment property as part of their retirement savings plan who did not feel they should pay tax on the capital gain from that investment.

      Nothing reveals just how much weight Labour is putting on “the Jacinda Effect” than its willingness to talk about a capital gains tax again.

      It believes Ms Ardern’s appeal can overcome public resistance, in much the same way former Prime Minister John Key’s appeal overcame public resistance to selling shares in state owned enterprises, or to rises in GST.

      Labour’s front bench has gone from refusing to discuss the idea, saying it would leave all that detail to a working group, and then putting it to New Zealanders in 2020, only a week ago, to now saying it will bring in a capital gains tax in its first term.

      There isn’t any detail. Labour says it will leave all that stuff to a tax working group but will accept that working group’s recommendations.

      It will be interesting to see who Labour points to being in that working group: You can probably bet that anyone on previous working groups on the issue will be given a big miss.

      That is because the last time such a group looked at the idea in 2010, it came to the conclusion that if the family home is to be exempted – as Labour promises – all that is left is political double talk and an awful lot of compliance and paperwork.

      You can’t credibly argue a capital gains tax will help take the heat out of the property market if you then exempt two-thirds of that property market.”

      Read more: https://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/labours-capital-gains-tax-gamble

      Reply
  2. David

     /  August 24, 2017

    Given house prices are flat to falling a CGT could tip the market over completely and then a CGT could be very costly as investors sell at a loss and offset that against their other income. If you have a rental where the rent doesnt cover the outgoings and prices are falling you have NZs mini GFC.

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  August 24, 2017

      a 5% correction wouldn’t hurt.People who bought houses to actually live in won’t be affected.Would be good to see the parasitic opportunists…crash..and burn.

      Reply
  3. But Ardern has ruled out looking at some aspects of taxation.

    Reply
    • I don’t trust this man in the slightest

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  August 24, 2017

        any reasons?

        Reply
        • PDB

           /  August 24, 2017

          He is hopeless and knows nothing about finance?

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  August 24, 2017

            Seems to hold his own against Joyce or is he the same?On your measure Bennett should not hold a number of…portfolio’s.

            Reply
          • Blazer

             /  August 24, 2017

            he has debated Joyce to a standstill recently,and Joyce is Minister of Finance,a very astute man…look at the deal he did for..Thiel!

            Reply
            • PDB

               /  August 24, 2017

              You must’ve been watching those debates through your left-eye as Robertson has no grip on economic issues whilst Joyce does.

            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              Joyce is all talk.Look at his eye watering extravagance at MBIE….as for the Thiel deal,god knows what the yanks say about this govt and its puppy dog behaviour.Embarrassing.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  August 24, 2017

              Sorry Blazer but Robertson is a genuine weak link at finance. He was only given the job as a sop when he lost the leadership contest. There are far better options in the party who have at least some financial nous, although they are a bit pointy headed sometimes.
              Joyce has eaten Robertson up in the debates and has proved very adept in the finance role.
              Becoming finance minister has even curtailed his terrible corporate welfare proclivities (at least a little) which I agree are a disgrace.

            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              Joyce is similar to Robertson,they can both talk underwater and are not the strongest in finance in either party.David Parker /Labour,and obviously..Bill English/National.

    • PDB

       /  August 24, 2017

      One does get the impression the real PM will be this bloke if Labour do get in. Ardern is a perfect foil for the man the unions didn’t want and NZders would be very unlikely to make PM.

      Reply
    • Strong For Life

       /  August 24, 2017

      I would like to know who will comprise the “working group”. The members of the group must be revealed before the election so the voters can evaluate their merits and qualifications. Will the group be independent or expected to toe the party line?

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  August 24, 2017

        That would certainly be a precedent.National routinely annoint their own partisan appointees in any advisory capacity.

        Reply
      • PDB

         /  August 24, 2017

        All of Labour’s senior MP’s have all come out and said a CGT is what they feel is needed. Ardern, Robertson, Twyford, Parker, even Davis the other night on TV was talking like a CGT was fact if in govt, not a ‘possibility’. No working group they put together is going to say no to a CGT.

        Haven’t seen anybody ask Labour about a land tax? That too seems to be on the table.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  August 24, 2017

          in case you are not aware,the general public want a CGT…too.

          Reply
          • I don’t get why when we’ve slaved our whole lives, paid tax on our money at every turn, including savings, finally in our 50s managed to squirrel enough away to invest, the B&^%%s want to tax us on the capital and assets. It’s just tax(work/business), after tax(GST), after tax(Bank interest tax). Nothing left over to show for that hard work and sacrifice.

            Best just take the lot and splash it on overseas holidays, jet skis and eating out. The government will fork out for our housing and blindly pay us a salary when it runs out.

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              first time I’ve heard speculating in property…..termed as…’slaving’!Bol.

            • FYI I operate businesses. They produce products that are sold throughout this great nation. I also export, but hey you can call that property speculation.

            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              well when the question was put to you some time ago…your response..ad verbatim,re speculating..was…’very much so’!

          • PDB

             /  August 24, 2017

            Proof? Did Labour no good last election. Definitely wouldn’t be the case if it applied to the family home as a real CGT should.

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              says…who…you..Interesting that you want it to apply to the family home,go to TOP…directly.

            • PDB

               /  August 24, 2017

              Where do I say I’m personally in favour of a CGT on the family home?

              You are making stuff up – all I’ve said is if someone wants to implement a full, proper CGT the family home needs to be included. It’s like implementing a proper UBI (which I also don’t agree with) and leaving benefits in place.

      • They should let us know for sure and that needs to be pushed for. If it’s leftist hard line Marxist types then, mark these words, it’s Venezuela all the way.

        Labour has been scared for years, that if they reveal their truth – that they do not accept fiscal conservatism and business values are necesssary to deliver social, ethical and environmental values – they’ll be rejected roundly.

        They’ve been happy to make occasional forays into their manufactured the perception of market failure – housing, homelessness. Jacinda’s message and thrust is to promise they can administer compassion and competence along with stability. Good luck there.

        Taxcinda and “Working Group girl” (Springsteen tune running through my head) are labels that will be hard to bat away.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  August 24, 2017

          whack….they have just been …’batted away’…its only in your priveleged world those ludicrous terms resonate..the average voter has no knowledge or interest.

          Reply
          • You’ll find that those you dismiss so rudely and disrespectfully and label as “privileged” are just at the end of one incredibly hard slog in life.

            Never understood such hatred.

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              you are a showoff ,and only a priveleged person would display the arrogance you do.It is not hatred or envy.

            • Blazer, your hate speech says more about you than me. You constantly abuse people and it is only PG’s extraordinary tolerance and kind nature that allows you to peddle your hatred and personal abuse, largely unmoderated here.

            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              go over your own contributions in the last few days,especially your name calling and invective to anyone who does not agree with your politics…POT!

            • “well when the question was put to you some time ago…your response..ad verbatim,re speculating..was…’very much so’!”

              You make huge leaps from the little information you goad, taunt and pump for. Frankly, I find it vaguely amusing and overtly simplistic most of the time, but other times the level you stoop to alarms me.

              It verges on online bullying, and, as an observation, it also feels to me you prefer women as targets.

            • I only use some stronger language about PUBLIC figures, not other posters.

              A PUBLIC FIGURE is fair game, other posters here are not. How do you not see this

            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              1-THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM
              2-now you are trying to play the defenceless victim….reap what you…sow.

        • You called me privileged, arrogant and a show off. Thats abuse

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  August 24, 2017

            no its not you have validated those 3 ,just today….which one do you want me to prove first?

            Reply
            • Leave me alone and refute my many assertions on Labour’s PREFU response

              This is what this post is about

            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              on topic..-.’I don’t trust this man in the slightest'(no reasons)
              -‘

              Maybe, but his salary will be half of hers’??>

              ‘They should let us know for sure and that needs to be pushed for. If it’s leftist hard line Marxist types then, mark these words, it’s Venezuela all the way.

              Labour has been scared for years, that if they reveal their truth’

              that is your contribution to the debate topic that PG states there has been no official Labour response to PREFU…and…’But there could be more on this, Labour have said they want to take time to go over the PREFU before releasing their final tax policy.’
              Ask yourself…

  4. PDB

     /  August 24, 2017

    Ardern on ZB this morning;

    “Ardern denied a Labour-led government would bring in a capital gains tax but said a working party would examine the situation after the election. However, family homes remained off the table, she said.

    “We’ve got a housing crisis and we have to act.”

    This is double-speak – she denies a Labour-led govt would bring in a CGT but then says a working party would look at it, family homes are already off the table (why?), and then basically says a CGT is needed to fix the ‘housing crisis’.

    If she is willing to leave tax policy up to a ‘working group’ why rule out a CGT on family homes before they meet? Why rule out higher income tax?

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/video/live-jacinda-ardern-speaks-with-mike-hosking/

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  August 24, 2017

      because family homes are for people to actually…live in.Is that really hard to…understand?

      Reply
      • PDB

         /  August 24, 2017

        You miss the point (as usual) – a working group looking at how fair the tax system is should be considering everything and THEN the govt decides what to do. By stipulating that CGT on the family home, income tax increases etc are off the table before the ‘experts’ can look at it suggests the whole ‘working group’ thing is a sham in order to hide Labours true tax intentions.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  August 24, 2017

          taxation is a very broad topic,that requires expert opinion.Nothing is carved in granite.

          Reply
          • PDB

             /  August 24, 2017

            “taxation is a very broad topic, that requires expert opinion. Nothing is carved in granite”

            Probably why Labour has categorically ruled out a CGT on the family home and raising income tax rates before the so-called experts can look at the issue! No wonder you like Ardern, you double-speak as well.

            Reply
            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              Labour candidate for New Lynn is a tax expert…didn’t you know?Who have National got with the same qualifications….yes..NOBODY!

            • PDB

               /  August 24, 2017

              Put her on the ‘working group’ then – I’m sure she’ll be impartial!

            • Blazer

               /  August 24, 2017

              you have to approach it as for the greater good.What is fair for all New Zealanders,not what is good for the top 10%.

            • PDB

               /  August 24, 2017

              Exactly why you don’t stack the working group with left-wing sycophants which Labour likely will.

  5. Jay3

     /  August 24, 2017

    I notice Massey university tax expert and Labour Party candidate for New Lynn Deborah Russell is in favour of inheritance taxes/death duties and the reintroduction of gift tax as a means of redistribution. I wonder what Jacinda Ardern thinks about those? Will they be implemented if recommended by Labour’s tax working group. No doubt Ms Russell will be on this panel of tax experts reviewing the current “unfair” tax system. Also can’t help notice that the phrase “Mum and Dad property investors who have bought a rental to help provide for their retirement” has gone from the Labour lexicon. Now they are just greedy speculators unfairly taking advantage of tax free capital gains.

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  August 24, 2017

      A number of assumptions there.How do you react to the National Party appointing Neville Body ex Fay Richwhite to advise them on selling State Housing .They paid him $2.3mil for him to give advice on the best way of selling housing to him and his kind.Too commercially sensitive to break down the payment..fee.

      Reply
      • High Flying Duck

         /  August 24, 2017

        He worked out the best way to sell those properties to Mum and Dad property investors who wanted to buy a rental to help provide for their retirement.
        National thankfully has taken up the challenge with state housing, improving quality across the board, selling houses in the wrong areas and building or buying in more needed locations.
        They have utilised community organisations to supplement some of the need and abolished the “house for life” policy that was in place to ensure only those who need state housing get it.
        I would say state housing is in far better shape now than in 2008.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  August 24, 2017

          So investing ‘ in motels. is the way. .forward. 😉

          Reply
          • High Flying Duck

             /  August 24, 2017

            I think you’ll find motels are the here and now to solve the immediate problems while the way forward is being put in place. 871 new homes for HNZ last year and many more coming.

            Reply
        • Blazer

           /  August 24, 2017

          real hard work for 2.3 mil eh!!You would have done it for 2 mil surely.Save the taxpayers 300,000.

          Reply
  6. PDB

     /  August 24, 2017

    No answer yet……..

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  August 24, 2017

      can you please tell me does National rule out anymore privatisations of state assets?

      Reply
      • PDB

         /  August 24, 2017

        Not in this coming term, otherwise they would’ve announced it pre-election like they did with the partial sale of the electricity companies. Also National are not saying they will/wont rule it out but will set up a ‘working group’ to look into state asset sales which raises the prospect OF state asset sales. Otherwise you go down the silly road of saying things like “has National ruled out removing all benefits?”.

        Your diversion is totally irrelevant to Labour setting up a tax working group to implement taxes post-election without confirming what taxes are to be looked at. They have been quick to mention what won’t be looked at so far, and that list seems to grow daily as panic sets in their party over their tax policy (if you can call it that) which makes them look like they are hiding their true intent.

        If Labour were being even a little bit honest they would tell us who would make up this ‘working group’ so that voters can see how fair & impartial that group might be. After all Labour have been talking about this working group for at least 2 years now so no excuse for there being no detail – especially considering how important the topic is.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  August 24, 2017

          very cute…your psychic powers coming to the fore again…!’Not in this coming term, otherwise they would’ve announced it pre-election…’National never signalled the sale of state houses and privatisation prior the elections.I am comparing apples with apples despite your ….usual deflection.

          Reply
  7. Ray

     /  August 24, 2017

    Are you all right Blazer?
    ‘Cause you have been spinning like a top all day.
    A bit dizzy from it all?

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  August 24, 2017

      fine and dandy Ray…and yourself…looking forward to 23/09?

      Reply
      • Ray

         /  August 24, 2017

        Too right, a good mate, who you mentioned up above, looks like she going to fly in in New Lynn!

        Reply
  8. patupaiarehe

     /  August 24, 2017

    Reply
    • PDB

       /  August 24, 2017

      Hey Patu! How’s that 20% for NZL First coming along??

      Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  August 24, 2017

        Don’t trust the polls Pants 😀 I must admit that I’m less than impressed with Mr Prosser’s little outburst.

        Reply

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