Looks like Joyce stuffed up

Steven Joyce versus Grant Robertson plus a number of economists.

Looks bad for Joyce, for national, and for Bill English.

And by continuing to claim there is a hole they have kept digging a credibility hole of their own.

Economists have pointed out that Labour have left themselves with little economic room to manoeuvre, but their numbers largely stack up.

Joyce has left himself with no easy way out of this. A backfire, big time.

Not only does this look bad for National, it helps boost Robertson’s and Labour’s economic credibility.

25 Comments

  1. Corky

     /  September 5, 2017

    I may be wrong, but I don’t think this will effect National too much. The focus is has shifted to other aspects of Labours tax and spend.

  2. Gezza

     /  September 5, 2017

    This – on top of “pretty legal”. 😠
    He’ll have to go! 😡 Who else have they got? 😳

    I was amused by several of the comments scrolling up at the bottom of the screen during the Finance Spokespeople debate. (Before I gave away looking at them as I couldn’t see a trend & they distracted from hearing what was being said.)

    One simply read: “Steven Joyce would tell you the Pope’s Presbyterian.”

    I must admit I never place much store in Joyce’s endless salesman patter.

  3. Corky

     /  September 5, 2017

    Maori Televison political debate tonight 8-9pm. They may discuss this. Though it will proabbly be more about ther Maori seats.

    • Tonight they are having a Te Tai Tonga electorate debate and look at Maori List and the general seats.

  4. High Flying Duck

     /  September 5, 2017

    Patrick Smellie says both Joyce and Robertson are being tricky and are wrong.

    The hole is absolutely there but it is “only” about $6 billion.

    There is definitely an issue there for Labour and I’m a bit surprised the “economists” have downplayed it so much.

    “little economic room” is more than just a small fudge, it is zero extra spending in three major budget areas over the next 4 -5 years.

    Joyce’s issue is that the story has moved from what he originally claimed though and he definitely overstated the issue.

    • Corky

       /  September 5, 2017

      ”Little economic room” is more than just a small fudge, it is zero extra spending in three major budget areas over the next 4 -5 years.”

      That really needs to be explained to the politically naive. What happens if there’s a recession? Greece, here we come. Super and Beanie cut backs. We go from being rock stars to roadies. We could borrow..but..

    • Blazer

       /  September 5, 2017

      Its the Goebbels technique….if you’re going to lie….make it a big ..one.National have form.

    • PDB

       /  September 5, 2017

      “only” about $6 billion”

      Yep – both are 50% wrong/right as I posted elsewhere but what’s a few missing $6 billion or so between friends?

      • Blazer

         /  September 5, 2017

        the dilution starts.Joyce and English are practiced liars,unsuited to run the country.

        • High Flying Duck

           /  September 5, 2017

          The Labour leader is on record saying she would not take on the leadership of the Labour party. Not a bad fib to start off with don’t you think blaze?
          And then in the debate she said she never lies…

          • Gezza

             /  September 5, 2017

            If i were asked to make a choice between Steven Joyce & Winston Peters as to who is the slipperiest of the two, I’d have to say Steven Joyce because at least Steven knows when he’s lying.

          • Blazer

             /  September 6, 2017

            at that time she wouldn’t…as you know they are ‘happy being the member for….’

  5. duperez

     /  September 5, 2017

    It does not look bad for Joyce. He might be one or a combination of misguided, stupid, mischievous, a liar, a scumbag, an unethical mongrel, a desperate clutching-at-straws political strategist, but those who thought he was marvellous in the weekend still think that.

    Some others who want to listen to him cast doubt have heard that. Anyone who thought he was a lowlife scumbag may have had that reinforced so haven’t changed their minds.

    Is there one person in the country who has looked at the incident and will change their voting mind because of his maths or because of his tactics?

    • duperez

       /  September 5, 2017

      But if I were still coaching a rugby team and he was in the opposition (pun) we were playing who were behind on the board, and there’d been some eye-gouging, I’d bank on it being him.

  6. PDB

     /  September 5, 2017

    PG: “Economists have pointed out that Labour have left themselves with little economic room to manoeuvre, but their numbers largely stack up.”

    *Joyce said there had been no extra money to cover such things as pay increases, inflation, increasing the public service, population growth and things like equal pay agreements Labour want to roll out across govt departments. He says all this adds up to the tune of $11.7 Billion.

    *Robertson and the economists say $11.7 in the hole is untrue because Labour have allowed for the Education and Health increases which makes up 50% of total extra govt spending required to cover the above costs.

    *Joyce says if this is true then Labour are still out 50% as they haven’t allowed any more money to cover the rest of the govt departments that will need extra money as well during the next term including DOC, defense, justice, police, security etc etc.

    So yes Joyce is wrong in saying Labour are ‘$12.7 billion’ in the hole as instead they are around a minimum of $6 billion ‘in the hole’ on all govt services excluding Health and Education – money Grant Robertson now admits they will need to find through ‘efficiencies’ (*cough*).

    Being $6 billion in the hole compared to $12 billion is hardly ‘largely stacking up’ I would have thought.

    This from a party who publically accused National of cutting the health budget (which wasn’t true) simply because they thought the govt should be spending even more on health.

    • Blazer

       /  September 5, 2017

      pathetic….they lied..end of.

    • Joe Bloggs

       /  September 6, 2017

      Ridiculous. Joyce stuffed up big time, lied to the nation, and is desperately trying to avoid responsibility.

      He took eleven economics papers at Massey from 1984 to 1986 and failed eight of those through poor grades, withdrawal, or failure to complete. That’s evident in his pathetic failure to grasp the fundamentals of Labours policies.

  7. Comeonbro

     /  September 5, 2017

    That’s only is you think economists have any credibility.
    Bernard Hickey is still waiting for house prices to drop 60%.
    We all know Labour’s numbers need to include the Greens and maybe NZF. So Joyce wins. Plus some of their mistakes were gaping.

    • artcroft

       /  September 6, 2017

      Too true.
      I know more than Shamubeel Eaqub on any subject you care to name.
      Hickey can’t differentiate between his thoughts and his feelings
      Garesh Nana… well… here is an attempt at revisioning economics which is best described as an empty premise supported by waffle written by a moron.

      https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/has-fiscal-responsibility-become-a-false-idol

      • Blazer

         /  September 6, 2017

        are you….Milton Friedman……or Paul Krugman…..or Von Mises….or…deluded?

        • High Flying Duck

           /  September 6, 2017

          Artcroft can obviously spot strutting Emperors in a state of undress.
          Hickey is still cowering in Wellington years after calling the 60% drop in Auckland house prices (they would have to drop that far to get to where they were when he said it…).
          Shamubeel Eaqub railed against home ownership saying renting was a far better use of funds, but has happily just bought a house.
          Ganesh Nana is…deluded.

          • Blazer

             /  September 6, 2017

            Hickey and Eaquab made the mistake of thinking that markets were rational and not reduced to the impact of artificial money creation on a scale no one could have ever imagined.The Greenspan ‘put’ created a false sense of prosperity.Today you see the effects of globalisation and currency manipulation compliments of central banks.NZ with its lax laws of foreign ownership is a fertile ground for the calamity of speculation we have seen.You maintain the 4 point plan Key concieved 10 years ago was a good one….if I remember its aim was to prevent NZ’ers becoming tenants in their own land!!.Now the non sequitur…a bit like Keys war on P…now an even bigger problem than when he made his declaration.That man deserves a knighthood .

  8. Richard

     /  September 5, 2017

    The old definition of an economist was a would be accountant who couldn’t add!

    • Blazer

       /  September 6, 2017

      fits the Minister of Finance JOYCE…had a free education and flunked 8 out of 11 economics papers….unbelievable qualifications.