Greens dirty on dealing with the devil

Green MPs and Green party members have made it clear they are dirty on any deal with National. They would rather spend another three years in opposition than do any sort of deal with National. They would rather risk an NZ First dominated agenda than offer an alternative.

Greens are not just dirty on any National deal. Some of them are filthy at the suggestion. They threaten to destroy their party if it attempts to deal with the devil, and they attack and abuse people if they suggest a National-Green government could be worth trying. Some Green activists are amongst the most abusive and least tolerant social media warriors around.

Green supporters are now even claiming that any suggestion of a deal with national is a National plot, some have even claimed finance by National.

Sure there may be some mischief making and stirring things up.

But I think there are many people who genuinely think that it would be at least worth trying a National-Green coalition.

I did a small Twitter poll on 25 September (107 responses):

  • National+NZ First 50%
  • Labour+NZ First+Greens 20%
  • National+Greens 25%
  • National+Labour 5%

In early September Colmar Brunton did a similar poll – “given the choice, would you prefer to see New Zealand First support a Labour or National-led government?”

  • 46% said they would prefer to see New Zealand First support a Labour-led government
  • 33% said they would prefer New Zealand First supported a National-led government
  • 7% spontaneously said they do not want to see New Zealand First in government, or do not wish to see it support either party
  • 14% don’t know which party New Zealand First should support

A representative sample of 1007 eligible voters were surveyed, with interviewing taking place from Saturday 2 September – Wednesday 6 September 2017. The maximum sampling error for the main question is approximately ±3.1%-points at the 95% confidence level.

That was before we knew that it was a choice between National+NZ First or Labour+NZ First+Greens (or potentially but impossibly National+Greens).

There are far more people than a few National activists saying they would be happy with a National+Green alliance.

I think many of those in support are likely to be floating centre-ish voters who would genuinely like Greens to push National into dealing better with environmental issues in particular, but also social issues.

But this is all moot. I don’t think there is any way Green MPs or activists would accept even talking to National over a potential deal.

This leaves the Greens with some risky possible outcomes.

  • If a Labour+NZ First+Green government the Greens are in a weak negotiating position and may end up with little more than whatever policy crumbs they are offered.
  • If a National+NZ First government the Greens are left right out.

Some think that if the Greens worked with National it would suck the life out of the party, if there was any life remaining after mass desertion, but for some reasons they don’t have the same fears of working with Labour-NZ First. A poor deal there may also damage their future prospects.

And it could be near future prospects. If both Labour and National decide that a NZ First coalition is untenable, and Greens continue to refuse to support a National government in any way, then we will have to have another election.

Greens were close to being dumped in the election that we have just had. They may be at even greater risk of missing the threshold cut if we have to go to the polls again.

Sticking to their principles (such as they are) is a high risk strategy for the Greens.

And the displays of abusiveness and lack of tolerance of different political policies and views are not helping save Greens’ support either.

I think that Greens have been flattered by support levels in the 2011 and 2014 elections. This was as much to do with Labour’s unpopularity as it was Green popularity.

In July polls went as high as 14% for the Greens, and dropped as low as 4.3% in August, before recovering to about 6% in the election last week.

This suggests that the core support for the Greens is less than the 5% threshold.

If NZ First and Greens are unable to enable the formation of a government and we have to have another election then they are both at risk of being dumped on by voters.

I was rubbished for pointing this out on Twitter, I was accused of putting blame on the Greens if a government proves impossible to put together. They would be just one of the parties responsible – but the point is that they are the party at greatest risk of missing the threshold.

Green activists seem to hate it even when the unpalatable obvious is pointed out to them.

The Green Party is looking shaky and their core supporters are dirty under pressure. rather than discuss possibilities some of them go as far as resorting to filthy behaviour.

See Time for a Green alternative Eco-Eco party?

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88 Comments

  1. unitedtribes2

     /  30th September 2017

    When National became Government with only 35% of the vote a new system was demanded to allow small parties to take part. First past the post discouraged voters to support smaller parties that had no chance of having any influence. So Now 2017, influence is begging and guess what.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  30th September 2017

      Nobody will want the Greens as part of a coalition government. The party’s such a pack of earnest whiners & wonderful white winged warriors on so many different issues they’d be packing sads & attacking their own coalition members the whole bloody term.

      Reply
      • unitedtribes2

         /  30th September 2017

        Thats right Gezza but it could be kept simple. Like you let us govern and we will do a blanket DDT drop over the Waitakeri’s

        Reply
  2. Patzcuaro

     /  30th September 2017

    “I think many of those in support are likely to be floating centre-ish voters who would genuinely like Greens to push National into dealing better with environmental issues in particular, but also social issues.”

    I agree with this but doubt that the Green Party membership are centre-ish floating voters.

    I wonder whether the idea is being promoted by National as another dead cat (Breed = Crosby Texter) too muddy the waters. Joyce probably has a freezer full of them.

    Reply
  3. Blazer

     /  30th September 2017

    bad move by National,to promote possibility of alliance with the Greens to pressure Winston.Will backfire bigtime.

    Reply
    • Are you suggesting that National (and Labour) need to avoid any pressure on Winston and just roll over for whatever he asks for in case pressure backfires?

      Reply
      • Blazer

         /  30th September 2017

        No I’m suggesting they just negotiate face to face without promoting a scenario that has no chance of happening.

        Reply
        • No chance – until the Greens see what they are offered by Labour and NZ First perhaps, then reality may bite.

          Reply
        • Fight4NZ

           /  30th September 2017

          I have lost count of the number of times posts on this have been written now, but that should in no way reflect anything untoward about the strategy behind it.
          Apparently, according to the posts there also lots of Green floaters ready to look at it. The fact that not a single non-right wing submitter has seen any merit in it whatsoever should also be ignored.
          In light of all that a strong opening gambit from national could be to offer English, Joyce and Collins to resign before negotiations even start – obviously you could trust them to do it after they got power. If they are serious about this coalition that is

          Reply
        • Fight4NZ

           /  30th September 2017

          I have lost count of the number of times posts on this have been written now, but that should in no way reflect anything untoward about the strategy behind it.
          Apparently, according to the posts there also lots of Green floaters ready to look at it. The fact that not a single non-right wing submitter has seen any merit in it whatsoever should also be ignored.
          In light of all that a strong opening gambit from national could be to offer English, Joyce and Collins to resign before negotiations even start – obviously you could trust them to do it after they got power. If they are serious about this coalition that is

          Reply
          • You’re right – the stupidity of the far-left is well known and daily reminders are not needed.

            Reply
  4. Kevin

     /  30th September 2017

    The Greens would rather prevent National from getting power than get power themselves. So much for being concerned about global warming. Nah, shafting National is more important than saving the earth. Idiots.

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  30th September 2017

      shafting National IS…saving the EARTH…

      Reply
      • Ironic then that this govt is no further left than your beloved Helen Clark led govt.

        *House prices climbed higher under the last Labour govt only to be stopped dead by the GFC.
        *Benefits went up less under the last Labour govt. First raise in benefits outside of inflation for over 30 years under this current National govt.
        *Other benefits (Working for families, free doctors visits, housing assistance, paid parental leave etc) have all been extended by this current govt.
        *Dairy cows increased twice as much under the last Labour govt with no plan to deal with the effects of that large increase.
        *Labour did little for Maori in their last govt and they also implemented Foreshore & seabed legislation and undertook the Urewera Raids.
        *National is far more immigrant friendly than Labour which is usually a left-wing trait.
        *This National govt has easily been far more conservation minded than the last Labour govt.
        *National policies has led to such things as having the 5th lowest gender pay gap in the world.

        People like yourself (and rabid Green party supporters) bang the neo-liberal drum when the New Zealand economy of today is obviously a mixed economy with a slight socialist bent.

        Reply
    • artcroft

       /  30th September 2017

      I think you’ve reached the core of the issue which is tribal hatred rather than any desire to do the best for NZ.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  30th September 2017

        Yes, Fight, we have all heard the expression ad nauseam…people who use it seem not to realise that it’s old and tired after all these years.

        Reply
  5. Alan Wilkinson

     /  30th September 2017

    Some Green activists are amongst the most abusive and least tolerant social media warriors around.

    Reminded me of this quote I read yesterday: I’ve written about many controversial issues during my career,” Ridley said. “Never, have I ever experienced anything like what happens when you write about climate, which is a systematic and organized attempt to blacken your name rather than your arguments, and to try to pressure any outlet that publishes me into not publishing me any more.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451889/matt-ridley-climate-change-rational-optimist

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  30th September 2017

      There’s a lot of Green dirt around.

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  30th September 2017

        Exhibit A: the pathetic Lefty twits who downtick inconvenient facts but can’t put up any smidgeon of a counter-argument.

        Reply
        • Patzcuaro

           /  30th September 2017

          Could be they disagree with you, an inconvenient fact for the right who think they are always right.

          Reply
          • I think National over the years have clearly shown they are willing to open their minds and work with existing left-wing policies, ideas etc – the Greens show none of this broadmindedness and are all the more poorer for it.

            Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  30th September 2017

            Of course they disagree with me, Patz, but why on earth do you think that is an inconvenient fact? They can’t put up any rational or factual support for their delusions so the last thing I want is support from that level of mentality.

            Reply
            • Patzcuaro

               /  30th September 2017

              There is not a lot of rational argument coming from the right beyond left is bad, right is good.

              @PDB National would sup with the devil if it meant staying in power.

              Unfortunately there is a extreme element in the Greens which is holding them back.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              @Patz, you had better go back and actually read the link I posted. You will find it is both a rational and factual argument from Ridley.

            • “@PDB National would sup with the devil if it meant staying in power.”

              Sounds like another left-wing bumper sticker Patz – is it similar to the Greens being more than happy to do a deal with a political party they have publically called out as racist?

              Looking at a fourth term out of office the left are no doubt more desperate to be in govt.

            • Patzcuaro

               /  30th September 2017

              @Alan I was more referring to your comments which don’t go much beyond left bad right good, which reminds me of George Orwell’s “Animal Farm”.

              “Four legs good, two legs bad.”

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              So your comment was irrelevant to this thread and my comment.

            • Patzcuaro

               /  30th September 2017

              @Alan you don’t seem to have much empathy for people that don’t agree with you. Yet it sounds like you were over in Africa helping people. Did they agree with you?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              My empathy for opinions is proportionate to the soundness of their base. In SA we were helping people who wanted to help themselves. That is always the sine qua non criteria for me. Their political opinions were not relevant or even discussed. Their hearts and character were.

            • Fight4NZ

               /  30th September 2017

              “My empathy is for opinions …”
              Then you are just play acting with your posts that just regurgitate discredited neoliberal twaddle sourced from fox news and co? That isn’t the real you?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              Stupid twaddle, F4. I never watch Fox news. I don’t regurgitate anyone else’s opinions or language unlike yourself who just deployed a sentence straight out of the loony Left’s abuse bible.

  6. Zedd

     /  30th September 2017

    I agree with Catherine & Scout; Hemlock would likely be the better option :/

    You can guarantee that any possible deal would only see ‘Green issues’ as a token gesture.. still dominated by Natz; ‘we want Money, MONEY & MORE MONEY’ agenda !

    Reply
    • “‘we want Money, MONEY & MORE MONEY’ agenda”

      This is Labour tax policy, not National.

      Reply
      • Zedd

         /  30th September 2017

        “dream on” PDB..
        ** greed & tax avoidance is the Natz main agenda

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  30th September 2017

          At least they believe in working for their money rather than stealing it from everyone else.

          Reply
          • Fight4NZ

             /  30th September 2017

            Soooòo, you missed the point again?

            Reply
          • Blazer

             /  30th September 2017

            Theo Spering must be a really…hard worker *sarc*!

            Reply
            • Just shows your true agenda – that of the politics of envy.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              Of course he isn’t. He just floated through life like you, B. /sarc

            • Blazer

               /  30th September 2017

              envy…is not the correct word..try disgust.Do you think no one is capable of doing his job for say…$4 mil p.an total?

            • His base salary is $2.46 million so you are actually arguing that his bonuses are too high? Do you know what these performance bonuses were based upon?

            • Blazer

               /  30th September 2017

              @PDB…yes I am aware of his performance bonus criteria.Totally OTT bonus for outcomes he has little control over.

            • Zedd

               /  30th September 2017

              one has to wonder; IF Spiering had just sat on his A all year & done nothing, would he have still been paid $2.4mil ?

              This whole ‘bonuses’ thing is totally farcical. Most other people who work for a living, are expected to make maximum effort, without the promise of bonuses ($6mil) for working a bit harder.. what a load of nonsense !!

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              In your world, perhaps, B. Many of our company’s staff are on bonus schemes. Many others work for commissions or on piece work. Self employed depend on their own efforts directly. None of that is nonsense. Your characterisation of it, is.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  30th September 2017

              Companies do not give people huge salaries because the people will like to have these. Anyone who’s on a salary like this will be earning it in some way, It’s not a question of making maximum effort as an ordinary worker might do, it’s making money for the company which leads to profit, expansion and jobs. A postie going extra fast won’t do this, and their pay reflects it.

              Some people appear to have no idea of how big business works.

            • Blazer

               /  30th September 2017

              @KC-‘Some people appear to have no idea of how big business works.’As you are clearly one of them,do not be afraid to ask for …help.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              @B, patronising drivel.

            • Blazer

               /  30th September 2017

              that goes for you too.Your self acknowledged privileged upbringing has blinded you from any sense of…objectivity.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              No, B, I see you quite clearly.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              @Zedd, “IF Spiering had just sat on his A all year & done nothing, would he have still been paid $2.4mil”

              No, he would have been fired.

            • Blazer

               /  30th September 2017

              @Al…getting fired is fun …in that world…you sail back down to earth in a …golden parachute.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              Really? Must be lots of happy accounts of that adventure then.

          • Patzcuaro

             /  30th September 2017

            @Alan when the right dip their fingers in the till it is usually called fraud and often has lots of zeros. Or they have use a pyramid style scheme to run a finance company, capitalise the profits and then socialise the losses. The right is a great believer in free enterprise until they start losing money then they want to be bailed out.

            Reply
            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              You are confusing half the population that supports National with a handful of crooks who may or may not be political, Patz. Deliberately?

            • Blazer

               /  30th September 2017

              @Al, no his isn’t …the right and neo liberal business ‘theory’ have managed to maintain the b/s that business ‘talent’ is valued at a market rate that has to be met to retain this…talent.Wall St and co own the best games in town,algorithmn trading,front running,derivatives,fraud,money laundering…all done in the best…possible..taste.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              Irrelevant nonsense as per usual, B.

            • Patzcuaro

               /  30th September 2017

              @Alan well the same could be said for Labour supporters who you are confusing with a handful of crooks who probably take no interest in politics. Are you trying to say that National supporters are all saints.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              Straightforward, Patz. Labour policies are all about taking money from National voters and giving it to Labour voters. Very, very few of National supporters are crooks of the kind you cited.

            • Patzcuaro

               /  30th September 2017

              @Alan so what you are really saying is that taxation is theft.

              Unfortunately for you the ACT Party got less than 1% of the votes so I can’t see much likelihood of us ending up with no taxation.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              Taxation as I said is taking money from some to give to others. It can amount to theft and bribery. ACT doesn’t advocate for no taxation. It advocates for reduced taxation to cover essential activities and support only.

            • Patzcuaro

               /  30th September 2017

              @Alan do advocate the abolition of taxation?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              If the missing word is “you” the answer is no. Broadly I support ACT: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1705/S00240/budget-2017-acts-substantial-tax-cut-plan.htm

            • Patzcuaro

               /  30th September 2017

              Thanks, you was the missing word. Under ACT’s tax policy they are still going to collecting a lot of tax revenue.

              Why do the people you are helping in Africa require help? Are they not getting help from their government?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  30th September 2017

              The prime reasons are war, tribalism (identity politics to you) and poor culture and productivity. Immediate consequences are failure of governments to perform their legitimate basic functions of protecting life, liberty and property. Corruption, poor education, misuse of resources, lack of investment and maladministration follow. Proper welfare assistance to those who should qualify for it is both non-existent and impracticable in these circumstances.

              And yes, South Africans are taxed comparably to elsewhere. That is not the cause: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_South_Africa

  7. Strong For Life

     /  30th September 2017

    I do not understand the Greens. Labour shafted them over the Turei benefit fraud issue with a brilliant hit-job to see the Greens’ support plummet. Despite this they are prepared to work with Labour, a party that almost destroyed them, but not National. Senseless!!

    Reply
    • Blazer

       /  30th September 2017

      Turei’s pain was self inflicted and exacerbated by a frenzied …media.

      Reply
      • Turei chose to lie to the govt at the time of her benefit fraud then lied to the NZ public this year as to why she committed that fraud – the MSM reluctantly had to act upon further information regarding her living circumstances when it appears people sympathetic to Labour gave them further information.

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  30th September 2017

          ‘it appears people sympathetic to Labour gave them further information.’…appears to those that want it to appear that way!Does it appear that Winstons Super over payment was leaked by National or someone…sympathetic to them?

          Reply
      • Zedd

         /  30th September 2017

        I do not all the issues; BUT having thought about Metiria’s action, I can only think, it was poor judgement to put herself & the party in this position. Not only did it bring her political career to an abrupt end, it likely was part of the reason for the party dropping to 5.9% from about 12% (14 MPs down to 7). Also; the MSM commentators did make it look like FPP election, which could have moved some Greens to vote Labour.

        I do think the Greens will recover & the ‘specials’ tend to favour them.. so watch this space

        Reply
        • I think the specials will likely favour Labour this time around reflecting Ardern becoming leader. The Green party campaign disaster should also be reflected in a lower special vote count for them in line with their provisional election result.

          Reply

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