On immigration “Labour’s policy remains absolutely unchanged”

One notable point of difference between Labour and and NZ First was on immigration, especially how much to reduce immigrant numbers by.

Incoming Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has indicated very clearly in an interview on The Nation that “Labour’s policy remains absolutely unchanged”.

Lisa Owen: So part of that is also immigration numbers, the number of people coming into the country and demand. And you and your coalition partners are kind of at odds on that when you look at the policies. Winston Peters wants a considerably higher drop in numbers than you have specified, and the Green Party actually withdrew their policy around immigration at one point. So where’s the sweet spot? If Winston Peters wants 10,000 people a year – and we’ve got about 73,000 – and Labour were saying maybe cut it about 30,000, where is the sweet spot?

Jacinda Ardern: The sweet spot is acknowledging that we have pressure on our infrastructure. And I think, actually, that is common ground between all parties that will form this government because there is undoubtedly strain based on the fact that we have had a government that’s entire growth agenda has been based on population growth rather than focusing on making sure that we move to a productive economy.

Lisa Owen: But when your agreement comes about–

Jacinda Ardern: Our view is that it is about the settings. It is about making sure that we are meeting the skills gaps that we have – and we do have them in New Zealand – meeting those skills gaps by making sure that we are undertaking those work tests, by making sure that our export education industry isn’t exploiting people, and by making sure that people on temporary work visas aren’t exploited either. That’s the area we’re focused on, and there’s agreement there.

Lisa Owen: So when the deal comes out and we look at it, will there be a number? Will we look through those papers and there’s a number that you’ve agreed on?

Jacinda Ardern: You’ll see that Labour’s policy remains.

Lisa Owen: In terms of the numbers, not just the contest? Because you’ve always talked about quality of people coming in and raising the quality and skill level, but what about the number coming in? Will there be a number?

Jacinda Ardern: Labour’s policy remains absolutely unchanged. As a result of these negotiations, our policy remains.

Lisa Owen: So no shift in numbers, no shift towards Mr Peters’ 10,000? You’re exactly where you were prior to the election?

Jacinda Ardern: Labour’s policy remains in place.

Lisa Owen: And the numbers of immigrants coming in will be unchanged?

Jacinda Ardern: Will be the same.

Recent and current net immigration is just over 70,000 per year.

Policy comparisons from the campaign:

Labour:

  • Ensure that businesses are able to get genuinely skilled migrants when they need them. This will include introducing an Exceptional Skills Visa for highly skilled or talented people and introducing a KiwiBuild Visa for residential construction firms who train a local when they hire a worker from overseas.
  • Strengthen the Labour Market Test for work visas so they are not being used for jobs Kiwis can do, and make our skills shortage lists more regional so migrants coming in under them can only live and work in areas where there is a genuine skills shortage.
  • Require courses for international students to be high-quality, remove the ability to work for international students in low-level courses except where the work is approved as part of their study, and remove the ability to get a work visa without a job for those who have completed study below university level.
  • In total, these changes are estimated to reduce net migration by 20,000-30,000. Without these changes there would be up to 10,000 more houses needed and up to 20,000 more vehicles on our roads annually.

Details: http://www.labour.org.nz/immigration

Labour leader Jacinda Ardern has confirmed she remains committed to their policy, likely to reduce net migration by 20,000 to 30,000 a year. The party says that will be achieved by cutting student visas for tertiary courses considered to be “low value” and susceptible to being used as a back door for immigration.

The party says it will also introduce a stricter labour market test, to ensure employers properly seek to hire Kiwis before recruiting from overseas, and require skilled migrants to stay and work in the region their visa was issued for.

Labour argues it is time to take “a breather” on immigration to allow the country to play catch-up on infrastructure, including roading and housing, and stop wages being kept low.

New Zealand First:

  • Make sure that Kiwi workers are at the front of the job queue.
  • Attract highly skilled migrants by reducing numbers to around 10,000 per annum.
  • Ensure that immigration policy is based on New Zealand’s interests and the main focus is on meeting critical skills gaps.
  • Ensure immigration under ‘family reunion’ is strictly controlled.
  • Increase the residency rules around NZ Superannuation from the current 10 years to 25 years.
  • Increase, the Permanent Residency qualification period from the current two-years.
  • Make sure effective measures are put in place to stop the exploitation of migrant workers with respect to wages, safety and work conditions. In Christchurch and elsewhere there is evidence of exploitation of migrant workers.
  • Develop strategies to encourage the regional dispersion of immigration to places other than Auckland and the main centres.
  • Substantially increase the minimum English requirement.

From http://www.nzfirst.org.nz/immigration

NZ First leader Winston Peters has vowed to drastically reduce net immigration well below what Labour wants, to a net migration level of around 10,000 a year. Unemployed Kiwis will be trained up to take jobs as the tap is turned down, Peters says, and the number of older immigrants limited, with more bonded to the regions.

His message to voters who want a big drop in immigration levels is that Labour can’t be trusted, given they had only recently called for sizeable cuts, and National will continue the “economic treason” of “mass immigration”.

Green:

  • Maintain a sustainable net immigration flow to limit the effects on the environment, society and culture
  • Make it easier for some family members of new migrants apply for residency

https://www.greens.org.nz/page/immigration-policy

On refugees:

  • Progressively increase New Zealand’s refugee quota to 4,000 people per year after six years, and properly fund asylum seeker and refugee services.
  • Establish a programme for church and community groups to sponsor an additional 1,000 refugees per year.
  • Create a new humanitarian visa for people displaced by climate change in the Pacific.

https://www.greens.org.nz/policy/fairer-society/welcoming-more-refugees

Proposed capping migration at 1 per cent of population growth, but later abandoned that policy, with leader James Shaw apologising for focusing on numbers, saying he was “mortified” at accusations by migrant groups that the Greens had pandered to anti-immigrant rhetoric.

Other source: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11907957

 

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74 Comments

  1. Corky

     /  October 23, 2017

    Personally,I think immigration control is a little late. We already have a saturation of immigrants who are high breeders. I am yet to see a TV interview in central Auckland where the background doesn’t show a 70 plus% percent of people clearly identifiable as immigrants. And yes, I\m sure some are NZ born.

    If Labour cuts immigration what are they going to replace them with to continue the economic stimulus( real and imagined) immigrants bring to our economy?

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  October 23, 2017

      Highly skilled beneficiaries I think.

      Reply
      • Conspiratoor

         /  October 23, 2017

        G, how long is your stopover in aux before you hop in sir als puddle jumper?

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  October 23, 2017

          Three hours. I will be heavily disguised as an extremely attractive obese lady with a moustache so as not to stand out in the crowd.

          Reply
          • Conspiratoor

             /  October 23, 2017

            Good, remember to place the moustache above the lip.

            3 hours is enough for you hop in an electric taxi and take a tiki tour around some of auckland’s burgeoning asian suburbs. Row upon row of shoeboxes stacked three high in concrete jungles. Total diversity, zero assimilation.
            Suggest you begin with hobsonville point, then if time permits over the greenhithe bridge to long bay. You will come back an enlightened man

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  October 23, 2017

              Don’t they have any rickshaws? Taxis are expensive & attractive obese ladies can’t trust Uber drivers.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  October 23, 2017

              Funnily enough rickshaws are also available but these are more likely to be pedalled by impoverished students. To break the journey and add variety i can also provide a list of motels recently acquired by the outgoing goverment to house the homeless
              A word of warning however. I don’t know what time of day this layover is planned but the above is a journey best undertaken in the evening. Due to crippling congestion, it is no longer possible to navigate aucklands roads by day at anything other than a fast walk

            • Corky

               /  October 23, 2017

              Don’t forget South Auckland, Con. We have a new government. It’s now about diversity. Don’t forget to keep your windows wound up unless the additive laden Air New Zeland snacks didn’t agree with Gezza.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  October 23, 2017

              I need to add G, apart from asian involvement in meth imports there appears to be almost no crime in these areas. Son-in-law’s patch includes hobsonville point and he tells me he never has to visit …apart from theft of building and construction equipment, which is fairly common

            • Gezza

               /  October 23, 2017

              You make it sound idylic c.
              Multiculturalism is most strongly supported by those who can understand what everybody in their street is saying, generally, I feel.

            • Gezza

               /  October 23, 2017

              It works like this:
              When you speak English & everybody else speaks English, you support it.
              When everybody else speaks Mandarin, & you speak English, they support it.
              When you speak English, and everybody else speaks Mandarin, you don’t support it.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  October 23, 2017

              I know Hobsonville Point & Long Bay very well. Both are excellent communities with very high satisfaction levels for residents. I haven’t noticed any non-integration or animosity at all.

    • “We already have a saturation of immigrants who are high breeders.”

      Have you got any evidence of this?

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  October 23, 2017

        Anecdotally we seemed to be seeing rather a lot of them on 1ewes & sundry magazine style telly programmes last year during the focus on housing issues.

        Reply
      • Corky

         /  October 23, 2017

        Yes, the article I show you when you last called me out- re the Chinese birthrate on scale is higher than ours. Polynesian immigrants have high birthrates. So do Muslims who’s population has increased rapidly over the past few years ( relative to previous trends).

        Michael Laws in a rather uncharitable moment said the future of New Zealand is brown and dumb. I don’t know whether I would go that far…but when I saw ex All Blacks perform the haka in front of European royalty, I thought to myself Laws wasn’t too far off the mark.

        In my opinion Pete, our native culture is in danger of being subsumed. given current population demographics.

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11433861

        Reply
        • Does that take age into account?

          What is the birth rate of immigrants in the 15-40 age bracket compared to people born here in the same age bracket?

          A higher proportion of non-immigrants will be 5+, and their birth rate will be zero.

          Reply
  2. sorethumb

     /  October 23, 2017

    Mr Boult said tourism and hospitality businesses relied on this group, and immigration settings should not be changed.

    He said the high cost of rentals in Queenstown made it extremely difficult for firms to attract local workers.

    ……
    So tourism doesn’t earn enough to pay high wages despite the fact that there have been enormous capital gains and many fortunes made in Queenstown realestate? What’s more they want the taxpayer to provide additional infrastructure.
    =======================
    Association for Migration and Investment chairperson June Ranson said the incoming government had no mandate to cut immigration, because Labour and New Zealand First have a minority of the votes cast in last month’s election.

    She challenged the Green Party, which does not support a significant cut, to stand up for its principles.

    “The Green Party has categorically made the statement that they did not want to see numbers reduced,” she said.

    “I would very much like to know what they are going to do to come to some kind of agreement on this, because it goes against everything they have been saying.”

    Greens leader James Shaw said he was not spelling out what line he would take if a vote on immigration numbers came up in Parliament.

    “I think we would have to cross that bridge when we came to it.

    “But generally immigration numbers are not set in Parliament so it is somewhat academic.”
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/342077/ardern-confirms-labour-s-immigration-target-to-hold-sway
    =====================================
    “Our story of bus drivers reveals the existence of the proverbial elephant in the room. It shows that the living standards of the huge majority of people in rich countries critically depend on the existence of the most draconian control over their labour markets – immigration control. Despite this, immigration control is invisible to many and deliberately ignored by others, when they talk about the virtues of the free market.”
    ― Ha-Joon Chang, Twenty-Three Things They Don’t Tell You about Capitalism
    http://takimag.com/article/a_blind_spot_full_of_billionaires_steve_sailer/print#ixzz4rh6C8y5F
    ====================================
    The Green Party position is public transport, density and a belief that cities will foster creativity and economic growth. They minimise population as an issue. Watermelon.

    Reply
  3. As far as I am concerned I want more transparency around ALL Labour’s deals with NZ First.

    I want them fully costed and an acknowledgement that skilled and semi skilled immigration/temporray. workforce are necessary for businesses and huge drivers of our economy.

    “New Zealanders know precious little about what securing that support has cost Labour in terms of policies – and money.

    Ardern either could or would not even say whether the outcomes of the deals were still within the creed of fiscal responsibility Labour committed to during the campaign to prove to voters it could be trusted with the books.

    A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and thus far a little knowledge is all New Zealanders have been entrusted with – which has simple fed the uncertainty for those who fear they will be impacted.

    For example, we know that immigration cuts are on the table but not the extent of that or who will be targeted. Ardern has also promised significant change in economic management – but not how that will happen.”

    I’m sorry Jacinda but your slogans like “absolutely” are not enough. We need substance. Winston has delivered you the best economy in the Western world. He’s handed you our present and futures. Your vision is not enough. We need assurance.

    Reply
      • Blazer

         /  October 23, 2017

        ex National Party minister Wayne Mapp…’In any event most New Zealanders, irrespective of their political allegiances, will want their new government to succeed. They will be excited at the prospect of new, young, vibrant prime minister. She will have her honeymoon, and if there is a guide from her predecessor but one, that could last for very many years.’

        Reply
    • Gezza

       /  October 23, 2017

      Trav quite a fair chunk of reality checking tends to happen when they call the officials over to ask them to “make it so”.

      Reply
      • Ray

         /  October 23, 2017

        No problem with those pesky officials
        Bomber is calling for a “purge” of the civil service and for an 0800 number to dob in unhelpful Public servants.
        Reminds me of a similar call three years ago for utu against any members of the media who didn’t follow the party line, snigger, as if anybody could actually discern that.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  October 23, 2017

          Oh that’s just Bomber. His sort always want to take flunkies out into the courtyard & give them a blindfold.

          Reply
        • The Kiwi cultural revolution?

          It could be done by twitter, they are used to targeting people they don’t like.

          Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  October 23, 2017

      I want them fully costed and an acknowledgement that skilled and semi skilled immigration/temporray. workforce are necessary for businesses and huge drivers of our economy.
      ……
      maybe at the firm level but as far as immigration improving the prospects of ordinary New Zealanders immigration hasn’t made us better off by any meaningful metric.
      http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/82115/kerry-mcdonald-analyses-many-challenges-country-faces-and-concludes-we-need-effective

      Reply
      • Sore, the “firm level” is pretty important. These firms are paying the taxes that provide infrastructure, the Piblic Service and give wider benefit to society. These firms are manufacturing, exporting and they use many, many services and goods and they pay and are charged GST. There would be no place for the extraordinarily generous benefits bestowed on the less able, less lucky in society were it not for tax and the wider the base the greater the take. It’s a big merry go round and if it gets out of kilter watch the bodies start flying off.

        Jacinda and Winnie’s anti-capitalism, anti-migration, anti foreign investment frankly scares me.

        Reply
        • “Jacinda and Winnie’s anti-capitalism, anti-migration, anti foreign investment frankly scares me.”

          And in particular on this details of their agreement are virtually nil, which is doing the country a disservice.

          Reply
        • sorethumb

           /  October 23, 2017

          These firms are paying the taxes that provide infrastructure, the Piblic Service and give wider benefit to society. These firms are manufacturing, exporting and they use many, many services and goods and they pay and are charged GST.
          ………
          Immigration is creating a need for the infrastucture and a good chunk of government spending is going on the migrants (new schools, new hospitals, roads etc). As for them paying taxes we are not talking about a growth of highly productive industries. Every new job in tourism makes us poorer as a nation. The “highly skilled migrant” meme is a myth. Michael Reddell, the Savings Working Group and others argue that the high rate of immigration results in capital that could be invested into productive enterprise going into infrastructure. As a result we have high interest rates and an over valued exchange rate (affecting exports).

          Reply
          • sorethumb

             /  October 23, 2017

            We are living in information silos. Unfortunately the advertisers control one media silo and the progressive left the other. In between are bloggers, you tube and social media. But as Nigel Latta told TVOne’s corporate clients “if we got this much coverage on Youtube we would be on Youtube”. It means the two sides aren’t challenged extensively in the media. Case in point. Paul Spoonley claims we need migrants because we have an ageing workforce. This is a half truth as migrants age and to overcome the problem you need more and more until (in Australia’s case) you become a population super power (100m) with no going back.

            Reply
  4. David

     /  October 23, 2017

    I am with them on the low value student market which seems to have been an endless procession of dodgy courses, dodgy qualifications and dodgy immigration agents. Aside from the ones going to university I would end the ability of them to get part time work, to work after they qualified and then get residency because of too many rorts. NZ is in the lucky position of having too many quality applications to live here already we dont need this stream of dodginess.

    Reply
    • PDB

       /  October 23, 2017

      Yep – I agree, except part-time work should be allowed due to a lack of labour.

      The foolishness is putting a set number on reductions with no allowance for what the country actually requires. Immigrants do better than many NZL born workers because they generally have a better work ethic, work hard and don’t shy away from doing the jobs that New Zealanders don’t want to do.

      Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  October 23, 2017

        and are motivated by a leg up into a first world nation with a social welfare system. There is an economic value to belonging to a nation.

        Reply
      • Gezza

         /  October 23, 2017

        That’s the common experience with immigrants worldwide.

        Reply
      • David

         /  October 23, 2017

        We have high ish unemployment in Northland and labour shortages in Southland. If I was in charge I would force every retired southlander to move to Northland as the weather is better and there will be fewer health issues and then force all the unemployed Northlanders to move to the South. If Winston wants the pension dependent on getting a prostate check it seems coercion could be the new economic model.

        Reply
    • Yes, we’re all there. Also, the bride fetching that purist, exclusive cultures practice adds an extra immigrant – two for the price of one. While loath to platform for an end to this, it’s wrong to say it’s only one “skilled” immigrant when bride fetching and parental importation is rife.

      Talked to a friend in health data and they informed me the elderly migrants who cannot speak a word of English are huge within the system. This is like Britain and much of Europe. Our public health services at the autumnal end of life are being drained by people who have never lived or worked here and cannot contribute(other than unpaid char and babysitting).

      Changes could be made to this end.

      Reply
  5. sorethumb

     /  October 23, 2017

    The rural sector is discussed as an example of why immigrants are needed throughout New Zealand.
    “2.272 The critical challenge facing New Zealand’s agricultural sector – which is mainly dairy farming, followed by beef and sheep farming and horticulture – is the lack of succession as the current generation of farmers retires. For every 10 people leaving the agricultural sector, there are around three to five people entering the industry. The 2015 Federated Farmers Farm Confidence Survey found that 20.6 per cent of dairy farmers had found it difficult to find skilled and motivated staff over the preceding six months. This is exacerbated by 
New
    Zealand’s ageing population and the trend of internal migration away from the regions to urban centres, in particular Auckland. Research also suggests that young New Zealanders do not find farming to be an attractive career prospect, due to the long hours and labourintensive nature of farming.”
    ………..
    There was never any shortage of ‘suitably qualified’ New Zealand dairy workers, (the migrant workers generally had no experience in dairy farming) there was just a shortage of workers prepared to work long hours for low incomes.
    If the market had been left to work and there were no migrant workers, employee incomes in the sector would have been higher (as farmers competed for good workers), production processes would have been a little less labour intensive, and the sector would have been a little smaller as some conversions, that would not have been profitable at the higher wage rates, would not have proceeded. The latter effect would have been small because dairy farming is capital intensive and even a substantial increase in wages would not have been a make or break for nearly all dairy farm conversions.
    It is also reported “Farm owners report that they want migrant workers to stay on and to buy into their farms, but this is difficult because they are not permanent residents.”
    This doesn’t make sense. There is no way a farm worker will ever be able to buy the factory farm where they are employed. When the farm is sold, it will be sold to the highest bidder.
    http://www.tailrisk.co.nz/documents/TheSuperdiversityMyth.pdf

    Reply
    • patupaiarehe

       /  October 23, 2017

      I worked as an ‘Assistant herd manager’ for a season, a few years back. Salary was $38k, with a free house, diesel, & milk (obviously :D). It was really hard work during calving, and 4:30am starts weren’t exactly ideal, but I quickly got used to them. The kids loved having a 300ha playground, with motorbikes to explore it on. At the end of the season, I was offered my job back for another year, but on $35k. So I told my boss to GFY, and moved back in to town to work in my trade for $70k. Took me under a day to find a job. And guess who took my old one…

      Reply
  6. patupaiarehe

     /  October 23, 2017

    Current immigration policy is completely fuct. Why is it that the highly skilled foreigner who works under me has to reapply for his work permit every year, and I have to re-advertise his job, yet pretty much every service station and takeaway joint in Tauranga is staffed by Indians who can barely speak English? I recall working as both a ‘fuel transfer technician’, and a delivery driver as a student, and neither job requires more than a slightly below average level of intelligence, and minimal training…

    Reply
    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  October 23, 2017

      That’s bureaucracy, patu. Rules without understanding.

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  October 23, 2017

        I struggled to understand Labour’s Skills Training Policy when Little spoke about it on Q&A as Party Leader. I wasn’t the only one. Whoever was interviewing him – can’t remember, don’t think it was Corin, he’s the only one with a few clues imo – was puzzled too, as
        I recall. Sounded like even self-employed tradies would be levied for Trades. Must remember to check it out on their website.

        Reply
      • Gezza

         /  October 23, 2017

        In relation to Patu’s comment I wonder how many have been approved as family members so may not need work permits, and in how many cases employers made a case that they’d been unable to get kiwis to apply, or that those who did were “unsuitable”?

        Reply
      • patupaiarehe

         /  October 24, 2017

        I was talking to my ‘highly skilled immigrant’ friend today Alan, about the change of government, and he was even more cynical than usual. Reckons he “Should’ve taken a fucken’ English language course when I came here, but I could already speak it better than any fucken Paki!!!”. He’s had a gutsful, and unfortunately will be going back home, when his work permit expires next year, which will be a real loss not only to our employer, but also the nation. The amount of tax he pays per year, pays the benefits of at least two unemployed Kiwis…

        Reply
        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  October 24, 2017

          Yes, I’ve seen some shocking immigration decisions too, patu. Far too much power in the hands of those incapable of good judgement = human misery and lost national wealth.

          Reply
          • patupaiarehe

             /  October 24, 2017

            Pardon my ‘French’, Alan but it really ‘fucken’ annoys me too. In order to appease some idiot bureaucrat, I had to waste an hour writing a job ad, for a position that was already filled. And guess how many applications I received from Kiwis? That’s right, none!

            Reply
            • Patu

               /  October 24, 2017

              The real problem I see, is that current immigration policy is creating an ‘underclass’ of poorly paid under skilled English language course flunkies, who have no cultural connection to NZ, and who understandably resent the locals. This will not end well..

  7. sorethumb

     /  October 23, 2017

    The New Zealand Superannuation issue is less severe in respect of those coming from advanced economies. Pensions earned in those countries are set off against NZS entitlements, so that New Zealand pays only a portion of the total retirement income cost. But for people from poorer countries where there is no public pension entitlement, or nothing that can be claimed abroad, the full cost falls on New Zealand once the ten year residence period has passed. Considered from a fiscal perspective, it is perhaps unfortunate that most of the increase in the number of older arrivals has been of people from India and China (numbers from the UK are significant, but have not increased materially).
    https://croakingcassandra.com/2015/09/01/what-economic-gains-are-new-zealanders-getting-from-older-immigrants/

    There’s your argument for “white New Zealand” (essentially). The analogy i would use is kids playing in each others backyards.

    Reply
  8. sorethumb

     /  October 23, 2017

    Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  October 23, 2017

      Paul Spoonley Immigrant Business and Labour Market Outcomes : Relational Embeddedness in Superdiverse Auckland

      In seeking economic immigrants, especially skilled, entrepreneurial and those with capital to invest, settler countries such as New Zealand have assumed that national and city labour markets and economies will gain by adding to the human capital pool and supply as well as creating new activities of various sorts. However, the gains have tended to be in niche activities (food, leisure and tourism), often involving immigrant “small world” economies (ie those targeted at co‐ethnics) and has involved the significant discounting of the original human capital that was assessed at the time of immigrant recruitment. Research on immigrant participation in the Auckland labour markets indicates a significant sideways and often downwards shift in terms of occupational status and returns from labour market participation for immigrants. This participation, both as labour but also as small business owners, reflects the nature of mixed embeddedness (Kloosterman and Rath) and especially the relational embeddedness (Portes) of particular immigrant groups, typically in this case 14 from Asia. This is most apparent in relation to both social and economic networks, the deployment of human capital and immigrant engagement strategies and transnational activities. This paper will compare the labour market experiences and strategies of five major immigrant groups in an Auckland context.   
      http://www.caddanz.org.nz/massey/fms/Colleges/College%20of%20Business/ntom/Cain%20and%20Spoonley%202013.pdf

      Reply
    • And yet for all his bluster he’s caved…..

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  October 23, 2017

        Well, why not? Why make a big thing of any policies he supposedly has?
        He got the votes from the chumps they were targeted at.
        It’s his last hurrah in all probability. He’s Deputy PM.
        Looks ok for him. 👍🏼

        Reply
        • So he’s either a sociopath or a psychopath then. ( I’m not qualified to say) You’re saying he cares not anto for NZ or NZers just himself?

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  October 23, 2017

            🤔 When you put it that way, let me have a think & get back to you. 😳

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  October 23, 2017

            💥
            Yes.

            Reply
          • Blazer

             /  October 23, 2017

            [You’re not even trying to counter-argue, you seem to have deliberately come here to stir people up. If you continue I may choose to stir you out. PG]

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  October 23, 2017

              I would think trav still has some scope.
              She’s not best pleased with the way things have turned out.

            • Gezza

               /  October 23, 2017

              Look. Never mind. What I said above looks a little lacking in context now.

            • Fight4NZ

               /  October 23, 2017

              G, your response to blazer doesn’t make it sound like you were overly shocked by his comment. I never saw it but will accept you call on it. Numerous blazer comments are being struck down while I see a concerted effort to whip up an hysterical frenzy by the disappointed. How bad can his part have been?

            • Gezza

               /  October 24, 2017

              Blazer has a hard-earned reputation for short, aggressive responses to reasoned arguments that stray easily into territory looking remarkably like gratuitous personal insults. Over time one can develop a hypersensitivty to them. I’m just glad I’m not a moderator. Sometimes they’re on point & arguably reasoned. Other times only he would think so. Only my opinion. I sail close to the wind myself at times & have had the odd spank.

            • Blazer

               /  October 24, 2017

              [Deleted. If you keep ignoring me I’ll ignore you more. PG]

            • Gezza

               /  October 25, 2017

              Bugger! Did I miss a real ripper? 😀
              Anyone 😳 ?

          • Fight4NZ

             /  October 23, 2017

            Or he accepts his position is limited by a7% portion of the vote and being very reasonable in stark contrast to those who wanted a different result

            Reply
  1. On immigration “Labour’s policy remains absolutely unchanged” — Your NZ – NZ Conservative Coalition

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