Open Forum – Tuesday

24 October 2017

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77 Comments

  1. Corky

     /  October 24, 2017

    I see Fletcher workers will soon be on strike. Don’t these workers have the decency to wait for Jacinda to be sworn in?

    • lurcher1948

       /  October 24, 2017

      As i understand it, what they are being offered and what the CEO got are rather different, they just want a wee bit more to live on.

      • Gezza

         /  October 24, 2017

        👍🏼 👑🏆

      • Corky

         /  October 24, 2017

        What the CEO gets relative to them is both unimportant and none of the workers business.
        If they aren’t happy they can sling their hooks. That is what democrarcy is about..the right to choose.

        • Gezza

           /  October 24, 2017

          Well why is it so important when they all decide it is a bit on the nose & want to put their workboots on the hooks while they have wee korero about it that the guys whose none of their business it is usually wants to make their business his?

  2. Corky

     /  October 24, 2017

    Didn’t take long for George Clooney to crawl out of the woodwork. His excuse? He thought Weinstein was joking. Really? Nothing like a little positive PR to keep the careerer in tip-top shape.

  3. Corky

     /  October 24, 2017

    When Lefties realise Jacinda wont be leading them to the promised land, but this chap will, it’s best to know something about the deity you will be worshipping.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11933787

  4. Corky

     /  October 24, 2017

    Holy crap…Kelvin Davis wont be a happy punter.

    • Missy

       /  October 24, 2017

      ??

      • Missy

         /  October 24, 2017

        Ah, I guess you mean this.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98157752/jacinda-ardern-releases-cabinet-lineup

        Still catching up…

        Some I know are expecting Ron Mark to be Defence Minister – and they aren’t happy about it.

        • Missy

           /  October 24, 2017

          oops, I see the article mentions Ron Mark getting Defence. Those I know who served with Mark have nothing but contempt for him, he was apparently useless, and has over exaggerated his service more than a little.

          • Corky

             /  October 24, 2017

            Yes, I agree. I grew to dislike the man while watching a documentary about his troubled childhood. Usually I blubber the whole way through such films, but as the documentary proceeded, the more I realised this chap is a major Prat.

            • Blazer

               /  October 24, 2017

              don’t know about Major,lance corporal…maybe.

          • Blazer

             /  October 24, 2017

            how can he be useless?As for exaggeration Gerry Brownlee claims Mark was just a storeman in the NZ Army.

            • Missy

               /  October 24, 2017

              I don’t know Blazer, I don’t know the guy, I was told by those that served with him that he was useless and not much chop – ask them.

              What makes you think Gerry Brownlee was exaggerating?

            • Blazer

               /  October 24, 2017

              Ron Mark was not a…storeman.

            • Missy

               /  October 24, 2017

              Evidence?

            • Missy

               /  October 24, 2017

              And that should be evidence that wasn’t written by Ron Mark, since he has previously claimed to have been in the SAS – which he wasn’t.

              And if not a storeman, what was he?

            • Blazer

               /  October 24, 2017

              do you really thik this is evidence?’I don’t know the guy, I was told by those that served with him that he was useless and not much chop – ask them.’..I call that spurious…hearsay.

            • Blazer

               /  October 24, 2017

              wiki…Ron Mark

              Awards Royal Order of Oman
              Oman Peace Medal
              New Zealand Operational Service Medal
              New Zealand General Service Medal (Sinai)
              Multinational Service Medal and Bar
              Military service
              Allegiance New Zealand
              Service/branch New Zealand Army
              Rank Major

            • Missy

               /  October 24, 2017

              “do you really thik this is evidence?’I don’t know the guy, I was told by those that served with him that he was useless and not much chop – ask them.’..I call that spurious…hearsay.”

              I didn’t make a statement of fact, I was quite clear I was passing on an opinion, and therefore no evidence required.

              “Ron Mark was not a…storeman.”

              You made a statement of fact, which you have yet to back up.

              “Awards Royal Order of Oman
              Oman Peace Medal
              New Zealand Operational Service Medal
              New Zealand General Service Medal (Sinai)
              Multinational Service Medal and Bar
              Military service
              Allegiance New Zealand
              Service/branch New Zealand Army
              Rank Major”

              I don’t know anything about the Oman Military, or their awards, so can’t comment on those.

              The NZ Operational Service Medal is given to everyone who has served on operations, the NZ General Service Medal is given to everyone who served in that particular operation, in this case Sinai, the Multinational Service medal and bar are given to those that served in relevant Multinational operations (like the Sinai), the bar is for more than one deployment. A Storeman can be deployed on overseas operations, and can be a Major. That Wikipedia extract isn’t evidence he wasn’t a storeman.

            • Missy

               /  October 24, 2017

              For the record I know a driver who served in the Sinai, and on other overseas operations, she has the medals to prove it, but if Gerry Brownlee said she was only a driver in the military he wouldn’t be exaggerating. You can list operational medals until the cows come home, you still haven’t shown that Brownlee was exaggerating about what he did in the Army.

            • chrism56

               /  October 24, 2017

              I did NZCE with Ron Mark in the class back in the early 80s at CIT. He was then a newly commissioned officer in REME who had come up through the ranks.

          • Blazer

             /  October 24, 2017

            Gerry Brownlee,ex woodwork teacher had great qualifications for becoming Minister of Defence …then!

            • Missy

               /  October 24, 2017

              I never said he did, or that he was a respected or great Minister. In fact those that I know have said Phil Goff was one of their best Minister’s, and Mark Mitchell was shaping up to be another good one.

              But one thing is that Brownlee had more respect amongst many of them that what Mark has (not much more, but more).

          • NOEL

             /  October 24, 2017

            Ahh you’ve got mates at No Minister.
            Only met Marks once, on a Veterans claim I was assisting with and can only say he put a lot into it. Officer ilk might have some baggage over him but for many of the rank and file he’s Ok.

            • Missy

               /  October 24, 2017

              Interesting, it is the rank and file I know who has no time for him.

            • NOEL

               /  October 24, 2017

              Should have added the No Minister anti Marks are of the 60s/70’s and with many of that generations of Officers gravitated to been National Party supporters and candidates.How much of the venom is political and how much is personal is difficult to gauge.

              Recently on a reunion of Veterans tour had the occasion to speak with a number of servicing officers and was intrigued that many had liberal opinions which made me wonder if peacekeeping, a more difficult task than war had something to do with it.

            • duperez

               /  October 24, 2017

              I have seen Marks being smart-arsed, petulant and reactionary in the House. He certainly hasn’t had that by himself. At times he probably thought that was the only way to make the point.

              One main thing going against him which means he is irredeemable and will never be accepted by many – he is not in the National Party.

            • Corky

               /  October 24, 2017

              The beef some military have with Marks is he passed basic SAS selection. That entails a five day ”sickner” to weed out Rambo’s, latte slurpers and dudes with big muscle and little up top.

              But Marks didn’t go on to advanced SAS selection where another culling takes place to weed out people unable to think on their feet, who panic, or like me, who aren’t team players.

              Marks doesn’t mention that he was never ”capped,” He lets them think he passed full selection.

  5. Missy

     /  October 24, 2017

    Had a giggle on Friday morning listening to early morning radio.

    There is a guy on from 4am to 7am who likes to make comments on the news, celebrities, etc. He isn’t the most PC guy, and he doesn’t discriminate on gender, age, etc, he makes bitchy comments about everyone!

    Anyway on Friday morning he was commenting on the front pages, in the Guardian there was a bit about the NZ elections and a picture of Jacinda Ardern. The guy on the radio referred to her as Jacinda Ardin (oops, she won’t be happy her name was pronounced incorrectly), and then said she looked like some actress or other and he was rather sceptical she was NZ’s new PM. Before the permanently outraged get outraged, he wasn’t saying she looked like an actress, but looked like a specific actress and therefore he thought they had printed the wrong picture on the front page. FYI, he doesn’t like the Guardian (or the telegraph, DM, Express, Sun…. or any of them really). It was funny the way he was talking about it though.

  6. I told a Labour supporter one of the reasons I was concerned about the outcome of the election was Labour’s employment relations policy which would see a return of national awards, similar to the 1980s. They laughed and said I’d been sucked in by the propaganda. I said “No, I’ve read the policy.” At which point the conversation ended.
    Two points: don’t call me a fool when I’ve actually done my homework. And two, try reading the policy. From Labour’s website:
    “to create Fair Pay Agreements that set minimum conditions, such as wages, allowances, weekend and night rates, hours of work and leave arrangements for workers across an industry based on the employment standards that apply in that industry.”
    http://www.labour.org.nz/workplace_relations_policy

    • trying to turn the clock back to when Winston worshipped at Muldoon’s altar and before Jim McClay his nemesis toppled the heir apparent.

      “He believes that immigrants are another reason why there are young people on the dole in the regions.

      “We are aren’t paying our young people enough.

      “They won’t work for Filipino or Mumbai wages.

      “We’ll cut taxes so farmers can pay their workers properly in the future.

      The difference between us and the Filipinos is that if you ask a young New Zealander to fix a fence because the post has fallen over they know what to do.

      “They know how to change the back end of a tractor too.

      “Or change a tyre.

      “But does a Filipino?”

      Behind the whole Peters regional narrative is a fundamental platform of disquiet about corporate New Zealand.

      Again, think Muldoon, and the famous night when out of the blue he told the annual black-tie dinner of the Bankers’ Association that he was going to impose interest rate controls.

      There’s an echo of that in the way Peters would like to deal with the Reserve Bank.

      “We’re not going to sit around writing theoretical policy for the Governor of the Reserve Bank any longer.

      “We are going to change the law so that he must do what he is told to do.

      “Not pretend to do things when he is not.”

      He rails against the loan to value ratio policies which he says applied from Invercargill to Kaitaia even though the housing crisis was in Auckland.

      “That shows me how crude and uninformed these highly educated people are and how potentially irrelevant to the New Zealand economy they have been.”

      Instead, he would solve the housing crisis by building houses and restoring the old State Advances idea of cheap mortgage money — the policy that enabled Holyoake’s property owning democracy.

      What about Labour’s Kiwibuild policy? Would that work?

      “I don’t want to see these new visions from these new politicians.

      “I want to see the old vision that made us a great property owning democracy revived.”

      http://politik.co.nz/en/content/politics/1139/What-Winston-really-wants-Winston-Peters-Muldoon.htm

      • Blazer

         /  October 24, 2017

        ‘before Jim McClay his nemesis toppled the heir apparent.’..as far as political careers go..no contest..Winston 1st ,daylight ..McClay 2nd.

  7. So I was chatting to a different Labour supporter who informed me that the election outcome was the best outcome that could have happened. “Why’s that,” I asked. His answer? Because if NZF had gone with National, there would have been anarchy. “What, you mean like the street protests and violence when Trump beat Clinton?” My oath, he said, as his blood pressure rose visibly, there would have been anarchy.
    I’m both bemused and extremely concerned. Has our political discourse really gone so low? Is it really that bad in NZ?
    Like PG, I didn’t like what I read from the anonymous commenters on KiwiBlog. But the threat of actual violence and vandalism goes beyond that. So, is the anger I’ve read from the likes of Bradbury over the last few years just the tip of a very ugly iceberg? Or is it simply evidence of a long time revolution agenda which is starting to become more visible?
    Is poverty really that bad? I note that Jacinda is now talking about creating a new measure. A cynic might suggest that it would instantly paint a better picture. Saved by Labour.
    Is there an answer to the angry poor?

    • Yes there is. At the core must be an education system where the state providers of same and parents are actually held to actually account for every, single individual child in the 20% tail who pass out school gates fundamentally illiterate. Most of the criminals, unemployed and anti-social come from this number. It’s impossible to mitigate alcohol and drug use without stellar educationresoirces at its core. Simply increasing wages, benefits do nothing on the short term other than give the illiterate more to apportion on their leisure. None of this helps them to want to participate or gives them the skills to do so – resources is not about the money.

      My problem with successive Labour govts is their laziness in simply throwing more money at things without discernible outcomes. This one seems so much scarier.

      • duperez

         /  October 24, 2017

        If you went along to your local high school(s) and told them, “20% of the kids who pass out your school gates for the last time are fundamentally illiterate,” what would they say? Would they be right or would you be right?

        If one said, “That’s wrong, but 5% are,” would you then go to the next and say “35% of the kids who pass out your school gates for the last time are fundamentally illiterate” ?

        • Gezza

           /  October 24, 2017

          Which one of you two has the stats to back your numbers?

          • I’ve presented these stats here so often it’s getting boring. A quick google will establish this

            • Gezza

               /  October 24, 2017

              I’ll take your word for it.

              I’d like to find your vehemently outraged screaming red angry poster about the terrible injustice of the evil nasty horrid government we’ve got that no one voted for trav, but I got waylaid by Shane over the fence who’s just been made redundant cos his firm closed down their Welly operation & shipped the tiny band of survivors to Aux n will run it all from Oz.

              Plus I’m doing projects.

              Can you remember what thread you posted it in?
              And can you tell me where you got it? Or did you make it?
              And what it’s going to be used for?

              Thanks in anticipation.

            • Conspiratoor

               /  October 24, 2017

              I hope trav treats us to an unedited version. Remember thinking very well written and unambiguous wrt to future intentions if the outcome didn’t turn out the way she wanted. Could be mistaken though …years of booze and strong coffee have taken an awful toll

            • Gezza

               /  October 24, 2017

              @ trav
              Look never mind searching, I found it:
              https://yournz.org/2017/10/21/open-forum-saturday-155/#comment-225810

              Looking forward to your reply. 👍🏼

            • duperez

               /  October 24, 2017

              I took the advice and found numerous references to NZ adults being amongst the most literate in the world. I found “Eighty percent of school leavers achieved NCEA Level 2 or above in 2016.” (Level 2 generally being the old form 6.)

              Please point me to research which shows 20% tail who pass out school gates “fundamentally illiterate.” Disabuse me of the notion that that is an urban political myth.

              https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  October 24, 2017

      Is there an answer to the angry poor?

      Yes, a Labour Government. That will quickly disillusion them. But mostly the poor are neither angry nor a threat. The anger come from those who decide to be angry on their behalf.

    • duperez

       /  October 24, 2017

      Is one person saying there would have been anarchy, a threat of actual violence and vandalism?
      A real threat of actual violence and vandalism?

      And does that person represent the attitude of others who wanted the vote to go the way he did? How valid is it to use that view to represent it as anything more than one person’s emotional view at the time?

      • I mentioned three different displays of anger in my post. The depth and intensity of feeling is similar on both sides of the extreme. One person’s expression is indeed valid if it’s in any way a reflection of other’s unspoken.

  8. I was chatting to a former Labour MP and mentioned the remarkable rise in Labour’s polls after Jacinda Ardern replaced Andrew Little. “That’s right,” he laughed, “elections are all about sales, not policy. We like to think we look closely at all the details, but really, it always comes down to our emotions.”

  9. lurcher1948

     /  October 24, 2017

    We have a 3 headed Govt now but does anyone remember the 4 headed previous Govt?
    National (shafted)
    Maori (terminated)
    United (ran away)
    ACT (on terminal life support)
    As I said Winnie made the right choice.

  10. Gezza

     /  October 24, 2017

    I don’t think you should retire from the blog PG. It looks to me like you might need to get some staff?

  11. Corky

     /  October 24, 2017

    Mikey starting to undermine the new government with..FACTS!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11936036

    • Gezza

       /  October 24, 2017

      I think he’s a bit stressed. It seems to have come as a bit of a shock to him too.

      • lurcher1948

         /  October 24, 2017

        People over the weekend were ringing up the heralds squarktalkZB about the number of rabid rightwing hosts like hoskings and williams whining and whinging…

  12. Gezza

     /  October 24, 2017

    New roundabout going in locally, Sir Alan.
    Needed, imo, so good show lads.Road cones for Africa of course.
    Truckful of lads been at it for two weeks already. Looks like it might be a 3 month project.
    Lovely fellows, one rough looking diamond opened the door for me, big smile, “after you, bro”. Not sure how we’re related but civility is always commendable.
    Pie shop’s doing well.
    Private contractor of course. The old local borough council workers would’ve finished the job last Wednesday.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  October 24, 2017

      Yes, they probably wouldn’t have had to erect scaffolding to climb onto the boxing though, Sir Gerald, or install temporary footpaths and spend two months filing their H&S project plans before they started.

    • lurcher1948

       /  October 24, 2017

      Where?

    • Patzcuaro

       /  October 24, 2017

      Roundabouts are a great way of keeping traffic flowing and they are immune to power outages. They are putting one in at Waimauku for the Muriwai turnoff. Work has been going for 9 months and is expected to take a year, 3 months per entry point.

      • Gezza

         /  October 24, 2017

        This one only needs to be a diameter of about 6 feet & a height of two inches, like the others.

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  October 24, 2017

          As I mentioned, the Germans built 580km of multilane motorway from Munich to Berlin with multiple bridges in a year after unification. Our lot wouldn’t manage a roundabout in that time. They’d barely get planning permission.

          • patupaiarehe

             /  October 24, 2017

            I’m really glad that I don’t do ‘site work’ anymore Alan. I have to ‘take my hat off’, to the level of patience our site crews have for the ‘fuckwittery’ that they sometimes have to deal with.

          • Gezza

             /  October 24, 2017

            Got me beat, Al. Haven’t the foggiest idea why such a small job with so much available resource should take so flipping long. But they’ll all be getting nicely paid while doing it slowly as so at least the workers & the company will probably be happy.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  October 24, 2017

              A km or so of road improvement up here routinely takes 2-3 years. Having improved it they reopen it with a lower speed limit. A year later the surface falls apart and they close it down to one lane again for repairs.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  October 24, 2017

              It’s entirely possible G, that the subcontractors turned up wearing the wrong colour ‘hi viz’ vests, and got sent away until they got the right ones. So there is one day lost, thanks to some wanker who spent three years at uni, and thinks he is a safety expert…

            • Gezza

               /  October 24, 2017

              Yep I can identify with that. Our street was re-sealed last summer. It needed it. But it’s the worst street sealing job I’ve ever seen. Gouges down one whole side of the centre-line, depression, unever patches put in afterwards. Just … sloppy. Funnily enuf ma said on the blower just last week they’d made a terrible job of our street & I smiled to myself, thinking “I know, I never told you I thought that because, knowing you, you’d have somehow found a way to make it sound like it was MY fault!”

            • patupaiarehe

               /  October 24, 2017

              On one project we worked on recently G, for a large construction company that I’m not going to name, we were told that we had to use a particular brand of powertool. The foreigner that I mentioned in another post this evening, ‘piped up’ & said, “So which one of you c_nts has shares in ____???!”. This country needs more men like him…

            • Gezza

               /  October 24, 2017

              @ patu
              So there is one day lost, thanks to some wanker who spent three years at uni, and thinks he is a safety expert…

              Yep. Bro in law, the Maori one, is a management level H&S expert, worked on major oil & gas projects & production sites in NZ, Onslow above Perth, & Brunei. Did all his papers while working. He focusses on the stuff that saves lives & improves production, helped design a particular type of well cap in Brunei & supervised its manufacture in Nelson. He don’t worry none about the colour of the vests, but he does worry about the slack attitude of some kiwi workers.

  13. PDB

     /  October 24, 2017

    One for Lurch – he always complain about David Farrar but in this case he helped the left!

    “Farrar, on his Kiwblog said: “Twenty-two of the best 23 seats for NZ First are National held seats.

    “This will also make it very interesting for them if they decide to support a Labour-led Government.

    “I’m not sure all those provincial and rural voters that voted NZ First will be keen on the inevitable political correctness and anti-agriculture policies that will eventuate from such a Government.

    “I’d say there would be a huge backlash.

    “This is why I’m quite keen to have Winston go with Labour and Greens.

    “ It will be sad for the country, but good for National in the long term as they’d ride a wave of discontent in 2020 and only need to pick up two more seats to govern.

    These comments from Farrar were frequently quoted by National Party sources spoken to by POLITIK over the past few weeks as a reason for the negotiators not to do a deal with NZ First.”

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/10/so_should_jacinda_be_thanking_me.html