Open Forum – Tuesday

7 November 2017

Forum

This post is open to anyone to comment on any topic that isn’t spam, illegal or offensive. All Your NZ posts are open but this one is for you to raise topics that interest you. 

If providing opinions on or summaries of other information also provide a link to that information. Bloggers are welcome to summarise and link to their posts.

Comments worth more exposure may be repeated as posts.Comments from other forums can be repeated here, cut and paste is fine.

Your NZ is a mostly political and social issues blog but not limited to that, and views from anywhere on the political spectrum are welcome. Some ground rules:

  • If possible support arguments, news, points or opinions with links to sources and facts.
  • Please don’t post anything illegal, potentially defamatory or abusive.

FIRST TIME COMMENTERS: Due to abuse by a few first comments under any ID will park in moderation until released (as soon as possible but it can sometimes take a while).

Sometimes comments will go into moderation or spam automatically due to mistyped ID, too many links (>4), or trigger text or other at risk criteria.

Free speech is an important principle here but some people who might pose a risk to the site will have to keep going through moderation due to abuses by a small number of malicious people.

70 Comments

  1. David

     /  November 6, 2017

    I am not a fan of Arderns policies and feel she isnt rounded enough to be PM but as a person she seems quite sweet and her heart is in the right place but watching her with Turnbull made me squirm, sorry but she came across as a giggling I dont know what who was desperate to be popular now she had been accidently invited to the cool kids party. Turnbull was gentlemenly but looked like he was humouring his young niece, I dont envisage this working in NZs favour.

    • Gezza

       /  November 6, 2017

      Correct.

      • Gezza

         /  November 6, 2017

        Turnbull treated her like a sweet girl but otherwise wasn’t impressed & he wasn’t interested. He treated John Key EXACTLY the same way. That’s how they roll, over there, these days.

        • He LOVED JK Gezza, never heard such admiration

          • Gezza

             /  November 6, 2017

            Well, of course he did trav. JK never gave him any trouble or expected to give a toss about Kiwis.

            • Not true. Trying to undo Helen signing away our rights will always be an uphill job. Why would Aussie extend tertiary subsidies of billions on Kiwi kid’s education and allow “unskilled” kiwis citizenship?

            • Gezza

               /  November 6, 2017

              Some of them have been there for years n years, haven’t they? Workin hard. Harder than some of those drongos. They pay their taxes.

            • Gezza

               /  November 6, 2017

              And aren’t the Ozzer-owned Kiwi banks over heah always rippin off their Kiwi customers more than their Ozzer ones?

            • lurcher1948

               /  November 6, 2017

              Australians,underarm bowlers with weak backbones…just saying

            • Tut, tut, that was in the 1980s 😀 😀 😀

          • Blazer

             /  November 6, 2017

            Wall St peas in a Tasman…pod.

            • You mean two guys from the lower classes who through diligence, backbone and hard work did well for themselves?

            • I agree about the diligence etc, but wouldn’t call John Key’ lower class’ just because he was brought up by a single (widowed) mother and wasn’t well off then.

  2. lurcher1948

     /  November 6, 2017

    She came across better than our previous groveling PM.Bill”who”English always came across as a (how high do you want me to jump) person who sold out New Zealand’s pride.

  3. Corky

     /  November 6, 2017

    Just taken a satellite look at Manus Island. Damn. I did notice it had a reasonable sized settlement on its northern aspect. It was the scene of WW2 action and Margaret Mead, a cultural anthropologists, lived there at one stage. Maybe she was hiding after discovering the Samoans had been tricking her with cultural bs.

    • phantom snowflake

       /  November 6, 2017

      Well that was kind of a creative leap from Manus Island to the promotion of 1950s ideas of masculinity. But NO, just NO!

      • Corky

         /  November 6, 2017

        Wrong clip. It was just meant to be about Mead. I thought you might have seen the relevance given the present Manus Island situation.

  4. lurcher1948

     /  November 6, 2017

    This will not end good for America, jungles, hills, soldiers facing them with backbones, they lost the last time they were in this situation, but go ahead Trump,would make good tv viewing
    https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiLgMm2majXAhXBj5QKHZmbDN4QFghqMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fus-must-invade-north-korea-wipe-out-kim-jong-uns-nuclear-weapons-military-701713&usg=AOvVaw3zmLkbr3kjvAlR4xTGFvLj

  5. lurcher1948

     /  November 6, 2017

    Another day, another mass shooting…must be the USA
    http://video.foxnews.com/v/5636165620001/

    • Joe Bloggs

       /  November 6, 2017

      Yet another angry white man proves that it’s not Muslims who present the greatest risk to Americans on their home soil.

      • Corky

         /  November 6, 2017

        Strawman. To my knowledge no one has said Muslims pose the greatest risk( death wise) to America. In fact, I believe it may be prescription medicines.

        • Joe Bloggs

           /  November 6, 2017

          Straw man. To my knowledge no-one has connected prescription medicines with mass shootings in America … until you did…

          • Straw Man should be Corky’s pseudonym.

            • Gezza

               /  November 6, 2017

              Might have more luck with that than my other one. I only got away with that one for two days I think.

          • Corky

             /  November 6, 2017

            ”Straw man. To my knowledge no-one has connected prescription medicines with mass shootings in America … until you did…”

            Nice try. False logic. I wasn’t connecting prescription medicines to mass shootings in America. I only provided a side-bar not germane to the argument.

            Now Kitty makes an interesting point: “Straw Man should be Corky’s pseudonym.”

            Well, she has me. Her posts are so vague and messed up, I wouldn’t know where to start critiquing her to defend myself.

            Damn.

            • Yes, one can see that logical thought would appear that way to someone like you who thought that the video that showed people taking no more than a casual interest in a Muslim procession showed terror and panic and believed the drivel being spoken by the commentators.

            • Corky

               /  November 6, 2017

              //..make vertical..stop clip..read subtitles. Then get specs and do an ethnic count. Check to see if this was a put-on by the National Front.. The commentators may be joking..just to create a little fun.Are the marchers fake? If they are actors, do they belong to the German Actors Guild?

        • Patu

           /  November 6, 2017

          I see your point Corky. Anyone who doesn’t should Google ‘Oxynorm’, AKA ‘Hillbilly Heroin’. I’d post a link, but am on my phone and am about to go to sleep…

  6. “National has accused the new Government of an unprecedented and alarming erosion of democratic rights after disagreement over committees which play a crucial role in passing laws.

    Labour has hit back – saying its plan to have 96 select committee places comes after National leader Bill English warned of his party’s size and the effect it will have on how Parliament operates.

    National MP and shadow leader of the house Simon Bridges said it was normal for places on select committees to be roughly equivalent to the size of Parliament, or around 120 MPs.

    When legislation passes its first reading it is sent to a select committee to be examined in detail. The committees are small groups of MPs and hear public submissions on proposed laws, and make recommendations before legislation is read for a second and third and final time. Committees also consider petitions.

    Labour’s decision means 11 National MPs will miss out on sitting on a committee.

    “There are 11 MPs – more than the NZ First and Green caucuses – who have been sent to Parliament by their communities, and aren’t going to be able to scrutinise or hold the Government to account,” Bridges said.

    “It’s a really alarming erosion of the Opposition’s democratic rights in our Parliament like we have never seen before. It is an unprecedented situation.”

    • Blazer

       /  November 6, 2017

      As if National ever,ever gave a tinkers cuss about ..protocol.Gamed the O.I.A ,paid lip service to debating legislation,used ‘urgency’ whenever it was expedient,buried reports they didn’t..like.

      • High Flying Duck

         /  November 6, 2017

        They did it too eh? Didn’t take long for you to fall into that trope.

        • Lectures us for years and then…boom there it is..

          • Gezza

             /  November 6, 2017

            Yes, but to be fair, I believe that IS politically & commentarily acceptable for the first term of a new government & only becomes pathetic from their second term onwards. I am happy to consider alternatvie viewpoints although I have largely rejected alternatives already & the argument would need to be staggeringly good to persuade me mine is incorrect.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  November 6, 2017

              I can’t see how that applies to this situation Gezza.
              Usually Governments wait until the second or third term before forgetting about democratic process and starting to think they have a right to rule.
              This Government is jumping the gun by 3 years & letting the arrogance creep in early.

            • Gezza

               /  November 6, 2017

              Deflection. This is the issue that was raised.

              “High Flying Duck / November 6, 2017
              They did it too eh? Didn’t take long for you to fall into that trope.

              1 2 Rate This
              traveller / November 6, 2017
              Lectures us for years and then…boom there it is.”

            • High Flying Duck

               /  November 6, 2017

              Reject all you like – the “they did it too” argument is not predicated on time in office.
              You are conflating the “they did it too” with who is to “blame” – It is politically & commentarily acceptable for the first term of a new government to blame all ills on the previous mob.
              “They did it too” is a deflection argument in that it doesn’t defend the perpetrator, it simply lowers the bar to say everyone is as bad as each other.
              That is is applicable from day 1.

          • Blazer

             /  November 7, 2017

            I’ve decided to adopt the ‘they did it too’ slogan,to fit in with the majority.I did not want to be…ostracised.

      • Tinker’s dam, Blaze, not cuss. The saying became corrupted to tinker’s damn-which is meaningless-then made in the euphemism tinker’s cuss, which is also meaningless.

      • robertguyton

         /  November 7, 2017

        These guys want you to “move on” from those thoughts, Blazer, “forget and don’t ever refer to them”. And they demand you do so without appearing to be aware of their hypocrisy, at all .
        Astonishing!!!

    • NOEL

       /  November 6, 2017

      You missed a bit
      “Earlier this year, the standing orders committee, which included National, recommended the number of select committee places be reduced” .
      Oh of course they were in Government last year.

      • High Flying Duck

         /  November 6, 2017

        The reduction request was at the recommendation of the opposition of the time. The current opposition do not agree.
        So fewer members favoured Labour then, and favours them even more now.

      • robertguyton

         /  November 6, 2017

        NOEL said: “You missed a bit…”
        and that’s the killer blow, NOEL, leaving the original complainants with egg all over their faces.

  7. Oh dear. Is Whaleoil regretting his vote for the USFIRST Party and the pretty strange government he and his wife voted for?

    How he never knew that Charter Schools, as good as they are, weren’t going to be axed by Winnie I’ll never know. How he imagined Kelvin wouldn’t renege on his word I’ll also never know. He has three long years to regret his vote.

  8. jh

     /  November 6, 2017

    SOWELL’S VISIONS

    NOVEMBER 5, 2017EMILE PHANEUF

    Why do beliefs cluster the way they do?

    If someone believes that only police and military should have guns, why is that person also likely to support socialized healthcare and a government-imposed minimum wage, and be unsupportive of school vouchers? In his 1987 book A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles, economist Thomas Sowell put forth two conflicting visions of man that he believes explain many of the underlying reasons for the clustering of beliefs.

    In what he terms the “constrained vision,” man is by nature flawed, selfish, and limited. Under the constrained vision, man seeks to deal with his flaws and excesses by establishing institutions of restraint: the separation of powers, constitutions, etc. Those who employ the constrained vision see abuses of power by leaders like Napoleon Bonaparte as inevitable. For this reason, limitations must be placed on power and on the institutions themselves so that it is more difficult for any individual to abuse them. The idea is to decentralize power so that man’s flaws are not catastrophic.

    The “unconstrained vision,” by contrast, sees abuses of power as being caused by not having chosen the right leaders or established the right kinds of institutions. “Implicit,” writes Sowell, “is the notion that the potential is very different from the actual, and that means exist to improve human nature toward its potential, or that such means can be evolved or discovered, so that man will do the right thing for the right reason rather than for ulterior psychic or economic rewards.” And central to the unconstrained vision is the notion that human beings are highly malleable; they can be trained in the service of some ideal.

    areomagazine.com/2017/11/05/sowells-visions/

    • jh

       /  November 6, 2017

      Steven Linker
      In the Tragic Vision, humans are inherently limited in knowledge, wisdom, and virtue, and all social arrangements must acknowledge those limits. ‘Mortal things suit mortals best,’ wrote Pindar; ‘from the crooked timber of humanity no truly straight thing can be made,’ wrote Kant. The Tragic Vision is associated with Hobbes, Burke, Smith, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, the jurist Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., the economists Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman, the philosophers Isaiah Berlin and Karl Popper, and the legal scholar Richard Posner.

      In the Utopian Vision, psychological limitations are artifacts that come from our social arrangements, and we should not allow them to restrict our gaze from what is possible in a better world. Its creed might be ‘Some people see things as they are and ask “why?”; I dream things that never were and ask “why not?”’ The quotation is often attributed to the icon of 1960s liberalism Robert F. Kennedy, but was originally penned by the Fabian socialist George Bernard Shaw (who also wrote, ‘There is nothing that can be changed more completely than human nature when the job is taken in hand early enough’). The Utopian Vision is also associated with Rousseau, Godwin, Condorcet, Thomas Paine, the jurist Earl Warren, the economist John Kenneth Galbraith, and to a lesser extent the political philosopher Ronald Dworkin.”

      https://areomagazine.com/2017/11/05/sowells-visions/

      • jh

         /  November 6, 2017

        Multiculturalism is based on the latter: Jack Tame and Susan Decoy will guide us.

  9. lurcher1948

     /  November 6, 2017

    Hell two WHITE Americans kill 85 other Americans and not a peep out of POTUS 45,so i take its ok for whites to commit mass murder/terrorism in donalds eyes

    • Joe Bloggs

       /  November 6, 2017

      Indeed.

      Instead 45’s too busy tweeting that the Japanese nation of “samurai warriors” should be attempting to shot down NK missiles…😧 baka gaijin…

  10. Alan Wilkinson

     /  November 6, 2017

    How the H&S morons have screwed up their kids:
    http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/26/the-fragile-generation

  11. chrism56

     /  November 6, 2017

    The grid data shows Huntly is now burning coal and the power is going south in the off peak because of a shortage of water.
    http://www.em6live.co.nz/Default.aspx
    I though the new government was anti the black stuff, yet they haven’t said a word.

    • Stale news, it always has used coal, but the coal is pulverised and so doesn’t pollute in the way that just burning coal (as in stinky coal fires) does. What people think is smoke coming from the ‘chimneys’ is actually steam.

  12. chrism56

     /  November 6, 2017

    I know that Kitty _ I have worked there. To be pedantic, they generally run a mix of gas and coal – the ratio depends on what other thermal plant is on the grid – a precaution in case there is a Maui trip. It was just that the Greens have this utopian view that NZ can run a first world power system without having a lot of new dams or thermal back up. Now they have to confront reality as they are the Climate Change Minister.

  13. Fight4NZ

     /  November 6, 2017

    Anyone else not getting the ticking buttons? Or have i lost privileges some how?

    • Corky

       /  November 6, 2017

      Yeah, me too. Don’t know what the story is.

      • Gezza

         /  November 7, 2017

        I can see them ok. I gave ya an uptick because I’m so fond of you Corks.