Legal action discredits coalition negotiations

NZH editorial: Peters’ suing of ex-ministers discredits negotiations

For two weeks last month, Winston Peters told the public he was negotiating in good faith with National and Labour, and asked the public to believe the country’s interest was uppermost in his concerns as he weighed up whether to support the incumbent Government for a fourth term, or install a Labour-led coalition.

It turns out he had initiated legal proceedings against leading National ministers the day before the election over the disclosure he had been receiving superannuation at the single rate for seven years while living with a partner.

This reignites publicity about the fact that an MP who has long championed superannuation was overpaid for a number of years, apparently without noticing he has geeing more than he was supposed to be getting.

Including journalists in his legal action also raise eyebrows.

It is disturbing that Peters seeks to have journalists reveal their sources through court discovery procedures. He evidently wants the court to order them to hand over phone records, notes and emails relating to his superannuation overpayment.

His attitude to news media going about their job leaves a lot to be desired and may come to pose a threat to press freedom if he now uses his position to try to put his antagonism into law.

This is a concern – and appears highly hypocritical given Winston’s history of making serious accusations against political opponents without evidence.

But the bigger issue – the question of Peters negotiating with party leaders who he had already filed legal action against, and whether Peters was honest about giving both National and Labour a fair shot at forming a coalition.

…it discredits his post-election negotiations and inevitably reflects on the Government he has chosen. It is now obvious there was extremely little possibility he could work with Bill English, Paula Bennett, Steven Joyce and Anne Tolley since he had initiated legal action against them the day before the election.

Why he put them and the public through three weeks of uncertainty only Peters knows. It is hard to avoid the conclusion it was to increase his leverage on Labour.

It appears that the negotiations and leveraging may have been done in bad faith.

National may well have suspected this as they seemed to not push all that hard for a deal with Peters.

Labour were more desperate for power, and may well have been sucked in by Peters. That is not a good basis to form a coalition based on trust.

Peters was criticised for not being open about his intentions before the election, leaving voters guessing about what he might do.

This is poor democracy. Voters should be aware of the risks of believing political ‘promises’ made by Peters, but it appears that some voters were sucked in, given some NZ First campaign policies were quickly dropped in negotiations.

Peters as Foreign Minister is currently overseas. It will be interesting to see how willing journalists will be to hold him to account when he returns.

89 Comments

  1. robertguyton

     /  November 9, 2017

    I hope he busts them.

    • I hope Greens don’t end up regretting enabling a coalition apparently duped by Peters.

      Who needs principles when power is at stake?

      • robertguyton

         /  November 9, 2017

        The Greens have integrity, Pete, in spades, and principles to admire, and are canny with it. They’ll keep them, no matter what gossip swirls around their partners in Government. The Greens are presently loving being in power, and are not regretting it one tiny bit 🙂

        • Missy

           /  November 9, 2017

          Metiria is a great example of their integrity right? A benefit fraudster who has shown no remorse or sincere regret over breaking the law.

          The Greens have as much integrity as all other politicians.

          • robertguyton

             /  November 9, 2017

            Metiria was in her twenties and no yet a politician. You’ll never let it go though, I’m guessing. The Greens most certainly do > show considerably more integrity that the other political parties, imo; it’s been their defining characteristic since their inception and I don’t buy your “all politicians are the same” nonsense; I know it siuis you, comforts you perhaps, to say that, but it’s not true.

            • Metiria is a common thief in my opinion. She knowingly admitted to defrauding the NZ taxpayer while she raised a child with considerable help from her partner and his family. She failed to disclose his identity, which prevented the taxpayer clawing back any of the charity extended to her. She undertook a generously funded education, belonged to Larping groups, participated in political party elections as a candidate and never once had a job.

              She exemplifies the worst of what, in my opinion, is a taker, a nett bludger and everything I detest about a system with little about checks and balances, a system she wished, as do the Greens, to make even less transparent.

            • Missy

               /  November 9, 2017

              It’s not about her actions in her 20’s before she was an MP, but the way she dealt with it as leader of the third biggest party in the country that shows she lacks any integrity. She owned up to it in a cynical political move, and then showed no remorse or shame for stealing from the Taxpayer – that lacks integrity. She was a benefit fraudster and stole from the taxpayer, but still expected to remain in Parliament and as leader of the Greens, the fact she never apologise, never admitted what she did was wrong, and only stepped down when it started impacting on them in the polls shows her morality – or lack of.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              “common thief”
              How revealing , Missy.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Or rather, Traveller. Apologies to Missy. Your fury is just as screwy as Travellers, but at least you didn’t revel your class hatred so clearly.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              So Missy, she owned up to it…that’s true. She showed no remorse? That’s a very emotive judgement there. Did you feel she owed you an expression of remorse? Why, pray tell?

            • Missy

               /  November 9, 2017

              Yes, I am angry, I am angry at the fact that she screwed the system, and has not done anything to remove the stigma about beneficiaries. She has just reinforced the view that beneficiaries are nothing but bludgers willing to take what they can get, which does a disservice to the majority of the people receiving benefits. If you are not angry about that then you can’t really care much about those less fortunate than yourself who are in a position to require state help until such time as they are on their feet again.

              As for Remorse, as a NZ taxpayer during the time she was illegally getting a benefit yes she owed myself and ALL the taxpayers of NZ a show of remorse, it was OUR money she was receiving illegally, and it was US she was defrauding.

              And the fact she didn’t show remorse is not an emotive judgement, it was a dispassionate observation of her demeanour during her press appearances, she wasn’t sorry for what she did, she gave off a sense of entitlement to what she did.

              The moral compass of the left is very skewed on what they consider right and wrong, it seems some thieves are okay, and others should be hung drawn and quartered, tell me Robert is it just those on the right, or just the rich, that should be punished? if you follow the left and aren’t rich you get a free ride for fraud do you?

            • patupaiarehe

               /  November 9, 2017

              @Missy
              IMHO Metiria has integrity, because she ‘fessed up’. Unlike an erstwhile deputy PM…
              Read this, & consider yourself better informed…
              http://www.openforum.co.nz/forum/life/news-politics/9265-is-paula-bennett-as-squeaky-clean-as-she-wants-us-to-believe

            • patupaiarehe

               /  November 9, 2017

              https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/retired-judge-warns-public-after-paula-bennett-threatens-lawsuit-over-online-post
              Keep in mind that this was prior to the election, so don’t fret too much about reading the above links. I’m only posting this stuff because I am sick of hearing Metiria getting ‘bashed’ for allegedly being a bludger. She ‘fessed up’, & got fucked over. Somebody else, is pretending that their shit doesn’t stink…
              Myself & my wife know a couple of solo mums. They both do the best they can for their kids, and are really grateful when we throw a bag of clothes their way, that our youngest has grown out of. Both have boarders, that WINZ don’t know about, because they couldn’t pay the rent without them.

          • robertguyton

             /  November 9, 2017

            You are angry, selectively angry. Are you angry about every dishonest act by every politician? The past 9 years must have had you APOPLECTIC!!!!

        • I’m sure they’re not regretting it now, but in three years time they might.

          They have an uneasy alliance with Peters in the mix.

          • robertguyton

             /  November 9, 2017

            It’s called “creative tension”, Pete and you shouldn’t hope worry; this Government’s getting on just fine, in fact, they’re cranking !

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Oops! Don’t know why the strike-out did that

            • A wobbly start, but early days. I hope they do well, but they have a lot of learning to do.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Minor wobble in the scheme of things – taken in by an untrustworthy Opposition, sadly.

        • artcroft

           /  November 9, 2017

          I’m pleased to see the way you so vigorously and activity support your guys Robert. However I think you’re gonna need lots of stamina and a heavy duty keyboard to see you through these next three years.

    • Missy

       /  November 9, 2017

      And what if the journalists turn over their sources and it turns out not to be National MPs? They have consistently denied, Peters has blamed IRD officials, MSD officials, and (then) Government Ministers.

      I hope he fails and it brings down the Government, he will deserve it for his vexatious actions, and Labour will deserve it for their obvious hunger for power at all costs.

      • robertguyton

         /  November 9, 2017

        “Brings down the Government”?
        Ha ha!
        Wishful thinking, Missy.
        I hope he ferrets out the rotters what scabbed him.

        • Missy

           /  November 9, 2017

          If he is wrong, and it creates distrust in the Government that can be exploited I don’t think it will take much. It may not happen quickly but IF Peters has overplayed his hand (which I think he has) it has the potential to bring down the Government and I will be cheering if it does.

          I hope he finds out who released personal information too, but I think he is playing this for political points, he will have to have some very good evidence for anything to be done, and Peters doesn’t have great history for having evidence to back up his accusations.

          • robertguyton

             /  November 9, 2017

            Nah, he’s got plenty to be going on with. For starters, the no-surprises excuse used has no validity, so he’ll start there and hammer the Opposition National Party with that, just to soften them up.

        • So, do we accept that leaks are fair, or not? What about hacked, stolen, emails (Slater)? Panama Papers? Winebox Enquiry? Last election Peters had a massive bump in the polls based on a recording that may or may not have been accidental, of a conversation that was presumed to be private (publicly staged but the media had been asked to leave.) Peters has a track record of grabbing headlines by besmirching people under the protection of Parliamentary Privilege, promising to provide the “facts” yet rarely if ever coming up with the goods. I have little sympathy for Peters on this one.

          • robertguyton

             /  November 9, 2017

            Leaks of confidential personal information for political ends is not fair Duncan! Or do you somehow believe it might be?

      • Patzcuaro

         /  November 9, 2017

        Just for arguments sake, what happens if it brings down the government, I doubt National would have the numbers to govern, so we would end up with another election.

        Personally I think Peters should just forget it and get on with the job.

  2. Missy

     /  November 9, 2017

    This is a bad move by Peters, and the fact that there is now questions over his negotiation strategy weakens the Government more, Labour (and the Greens) can be seen as wanting power at all costs, and Peters is untrustworthy.

    National did the right thing.

  3. robertguyton

     /  November 9, 2017

    The Government isn’t weakened by this gossip-mongering, Missy, ‘cept in the minds of those who fear the new bosses, such as hang out here. Pete seems excited by the tattle.

    • It’s not ‘gossip-mongering’. It may well have strengthened NZ First’s negotiating position over Labour, and especially over Greens who were left getting whatever Peters and Labour allowed them to have.

      You may be happy with that, but Peters poses a real risk to a principled government.

      • Blazer

         /  November 9, 2017

        Would have posed no risk if he had gone with National.. then.😋

        • High Flying Duck

           /  November 9, 2017

          I didn’t see any caveat on Pete’s last statement.
          National seem completely unfazed by missing out on Government – many articles saying they are almost cheerful…
          I think we are seeing why.

          • Blazer

             /  November 9, 2017

            congratulations then to the good ship National Disaster,and all who sail…in her.

    • Missy

       /  November 9, 2017

      The UK at the moment is showing how ‘gossip mongering’ can weaken a Government, so don’t write off that possibility too soon.

      On this in particular, Peters has shown he negotiated in bad faith, he misled the electorate and most likely Labour, the Greens, and National. He no doubt did this to screw more concessions out of Labour, this creates distrust in the Government, and could create distrust between the coalition partners, and with the Greens.

      I am sorry, but whilst right now he may be able to get away with it, this could (and probably will) come back to bite NZ First – and Labour – on the bum in a big way.

      This is not a good start for a new Government.

      • robertguyton

         /  November 9, 2017

        It’s a great start! Labour, New Zealand First and The Greens are holding the reins of power while some National Party MPs are being forced to defend themselves in court against charges of illegal behaviour! Splendid!

        • artcroft

           /  November 9, 2017

          Except Labour now know they could have had Peter’s for free. He’s played both them and National.

        • Missy

           /  November 9, 2017

          Yeah, they had a great start with having to give in to the opposition on their representation on Select Committees, they were outplayed by National before this came out, this just gives National more ammunition regarding the legitimacy of the coalition and their mandate, which is on shaky ground. They can also now sow seeds of mistrust more easily as who would trust NZ First after this? Only a fool would think this will not affect the Government. It will just take longer this time due to the obvious love affair that the media have with Jacinda (mainly because they won’t want to admit they were wrong to try and influence the election).

          • robertguyton

             /  November 9, 2017

            Perfectly legitimate Government, this one, no matter how loud the howling from the losers perfectly legitimate Opposition 🙂

            • Missy

               /  November 9, 2017

              So a coalition that is agreed to due to bad faith negotiations, and potentially under false pretences, is legitimate? Peters lied during negotiations, that is enough to void any contract. But if you want to believe it is a legitimate coalition go ahead.

              At best Ardern will be seen as gullible, at worst so power hungry she was willing to do anything to become PM, either way it doesn’t look good for her.

            • Missy

               /  November 9, 2017

              For the record I accept the outcome of the negotiations – or rather I did until this came out. I understand MMP, and I was more than happy that National didn’t sell out to Peters. However, Peters actions and bad faith negotiations have made a mockery of the MMP system, I fear that the damage he has done could be long term, no-one will want to trust smaller parties, and it could have nothing but a detrimental affect on our democracy and representation in Parliament, effectively pushing NZ back to a FPP looking system under MMP.

              No matter how you spin it, this isn’t good for the Government or for NZ.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Missy said, “Peters lied during negotiations” seemingly careless about Winston’s willingness to sue. I’d watch what I say, Missy, where Winston is concerned.

            • Missy

               /  November 9, 2017

              Is that some kind of threat Robert?

              Peters told the electorate he hadn’t decided who he was going to go with in coalition, yet he had already started legal action against National MPs prior to the election thereby making it impossible for him to go into coalition with National, meaning he had already decided PRIOR to the election he would go with Labour. What part of him telling the electorate that he didn’t know when he so obviously did is not a lie?

          • robertguyton

             /  November 9, 2017

            Threat? Don’t be dippy, Missy. Pete’ll be peeved if you get him into trouble, making claims such as “Peter’s lied” on his blog. Still, no skin off my nose, what you do and say. Peace, sister.

    • Maybe the Govt isn’t weakened in your universe Robert, but when you do the Math, you don’t need much of a swing to get the numbers to overshadow this sad little coalition. The coalition is only there courtesy of the clever Laboir maioulation of leadership voting rules, the installation of Populist Jacinda’s. Now we know that she scraped in because a devious, vainglorious old man put her there in a fit of pique

      Listening to Ron Marks (a man incapable of doing anything but reading from a script of his ubermeister Winnie’s ) one heard of their deep bitterness towards National. They’ve successfully gamed NZ and whatever you may think, we don’t like that.

      • Excuse typonese

        • Blazer

           /  November 9, 2017

          ‘the worst of what, in my opinion, is a taker, a nett bludger and everything I detest about a system with little about checks and balances, ‘…you will be very,very angry when you digest the behaviour of the ..Paradise papers ..’people’..then.

      • robertguyton

         /  November 9, 2017

        Let’s not forget; National lost. They’re in Opposition. They have no power, save what they can fake 🙂
        And there’s nothing “sad” about the new Government! They’re as happy as sandboys and so are their supporters! You’ve no idea how delighted we all are; jubilant, I’d say and enjoying the anguish and discomfort/grumbling/breast-beating coming from the losing other side 🙂

      • Blazer

         /  November 9, 2017

        pleased to hear you recognise that was what National was all about gaming…from the O.I.A to accepting research from experts.

  4. Very thin ice Robert

    “Or rather, Traveller. Apologies to Missy. Your fury is just as screwy as Travellers, but at least you didn’t revel your class hatred so clearly”.

    You know nothing about my “attitudes to “class”. What a strange construct, is that a 1950s Southland thing at work? This is egalitarian, secularist NZ 2017. There’s nothing subjective about my hatred of thieves. Wherever they went to school I despise their sorry selves. Capiche?

    Public figures, especially on government salaries, are fair game. Posters here are not. Stick to the issues and public figures.

    • Blazer

       /  November 9, 2017

      What did you think about English repaying monies from his double dipping…and using P.M funds to pay Barclays legals?

      • robertguyton

         /  November 9, 2017

        I very much doubt that Traveller, quick though she usually is to respond, will answer you, Blazer.

        • I’m at work and surprisingly I am not on here 24/7 and don’t feel any obligation to satisfy anyone who engages with me, especially people who want to be personal.

          I’m here to discuss public issues and I believe I should not be personally subject to your investigation or grilling.

          Metiria is a fraudster. She has admitted this. She is a public figure. I’m not saying anything she hasn’t told us herself. If you want to refute that fact then please attempt to do so. Though I can see why you bring up Barclay, I don’t see the parallel and am not entering into your he said/she said.

          So, given the laws of this land, do you think Metiria is a thief and if not feel free to expand. I’m not bothered either way, but if you attempt to veer away from public issues and personally attack me and especially when you attempt tag-teaming with blazer I’m even less inclined.

          I’m not into forum bullies.

          • robertguyton

             /  November 9, 2017

            The question, Traveller, was around Bill English. We’ve heard your views on Metiria.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  November 9, 2017

        using P.M funds to pay Barclays legals

        That is simply the requirement of Parliamentary Services that all expenses for Parliamentary staff employment be paid from the party funding allocation for that purpose. Your question suggests feigned ignorance.

        • robertguyton

           /  November 9, 2017

          Hush money as well, Alan?
          How kind and forgiving you are to your crew.
          Imagine if Labour had done it!!!
          The outrage!!!
          🙂

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  November 9, 2017

            Employment settlements are routinely paid and routinely involve confidentiality clauses. Anything else would be exceptional. Outrage is the speciality of the always deluded and misinformed loony Left.

    • robertguyton

       /  November 9, 2017

      “There’s nothing subjective about my hatred of thieves.”
      I was going to ask the very question Blazer has posted, so, like Blazer, await Traveller’s response with bated breath. Perhaps we could also hear her views on Todd Barclay and his post-disgrace collection of his Ministerial salary, or something on Bill English and John Key’s payment of tax-payers money to Glenys Dickson, subject of Barclay’s (alleged-but-confirmed -by-English)) spying- $100 000, Traveller, of your money, paid out for …what?

      • High Flying Duck

         /  November 9, 2017

        Perhaps instead of posting about things with your warped viewpoints entwined, you could mention something illegal that has not been dealt with?

        Todd Barclay was still employed , so was still paid.

        The payout to Glenys Dickson was made in accordance with the rules and as previous payments had been made.

        Bill English was no worse than the Green party:

        “The Greens have paid back $6000 wrongly claimed for accommodation allowances, after discovering they had been double-dipping for two MPs sharing a house.

        The error was uncovered in June during an annual assessment of the property’s market rent after MP Catherine Delahunty moved into the house with Jeanette Fitzsimons, Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei said.

        “She and Jeanette each continued to claim the rent that Jeanette had claimed alone from February till May.””

        The house is owned by the Green MPs’ superannuation fund, which also owns a flat rented to MP Sue Bradford. The fund was set up in 1998 by former co-leader Rod Donald to take advantage of Parliament’s rules.

        They allow an out-of-Wellington MP to qualify for an allowance, even if they own or have an interest in the property. They can claim for rent or interest costs (but not principal) on a mortgage to a maximum of $24,000 a year.

        • Blazer

           /  November 9, 2017

          a bit rich calling Roberts views ‘warped’….you are a great advocate of 2 wrongs make a…right.

          • High Flying Duck

             /  November 9, 2017

            Perhaps I should have just said stop with the false analogies and left it at that…

            And now Labour are in, you’re on board with the whole “they did it too” schtick – remember?

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              I’m not saying, “they did it too”, HFD.
              I’m saying, they did it.

        • robertguyton

           /  November 9, 2017

          “The payout to Glenys Dickson was made in accordance with the rules and as previous payments had been made.”
          $100 000 of your money, paid in secret, from the Prime Minister’s Special Fund? No believable explanation given. Nothing concerning about that, HFD?

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  November 9, 2017

            B.s. See above. Go read the rules for employment by Parliamentary Services.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Is there a section titled, “Hush Money”?
              Why wouldn’t Todd clear his name, do you think, Alan? Talk to the police, put his side of the story, clear the matter up? Nothing to fear, nothing to hide; hmmmmmm?

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Do the Parliamentary Services rules cover the Prime Minister’s Special Fund (or whatever it’s called) Alan?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  November 9, 2017

              Ranting b.s. that has previously been thoroughly answered. Stop wasting your time and ours.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Unable to answer the Prime Ministers’ Special etc. question, Alan?
              I expected as much. It’s a toughie!

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  November 9, 2017

              Go look it up for yourself, Robert. You will find it is all covered and laid out in the rules. But of course you won’t bother. You prefer a state of ranting ignorance.

        • robertguyton

           /  November 9, 2017

          “Todd Barclay was still employed…”
          Why?
          Because he hadn’t done anything illegal, HFD?
          Ha ha ha ha ha!
          (Bill said he had) Fyi.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  November 9, 2017

        Considering Todd Barclay was never a Minister I seriously doubt he ever received a Ministerial salary. However, you will obviously believe any Lefty crap served up on FB by the deluded ignorant for the deluded ignorant.

        • robertguyton

           /  November 9, 2017

          True, MP is what I ought to have said. And why was he not “dis-employed” when his boss, Bill, learned that he’d been taping his secretary without her knowledge, do you think?

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  November 9, 2017

            Your ignorance is simply staggering. Barclay was not employed by English. He is employed by the voters who elected him independently of anything else as an electorate MP. Go away and learn basic facts about Parliament before you splatter any more crap here.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Wonder why he wouldn’t talk with the police, clear the matter up, explain to the public of New Zealand; after all, we paid compensation to his secretary; $100 000 worth and don’t even get an explanation! Odd (rhymes with Todd).

            • High Flying Duck

               /  November 9, 2017

              That has also been covered – basic legal advice is don’t talk to the police, whether you have done something wrong or not.
              Tilting at windmills…again.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Advice from National: Don’t talk to the police.
              Classic.

            • Blazer

               /  November 9, 2017

              so how did he become ‘unemployed’ then?

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Awkward questions will be met with awkward silence, Blazer.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  November 9, 2017

              Idiots never understand why no-one talks to them, Robert.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              Insider information, Alan?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  November 9, 2017

              No, free advise for you.

            • robertguyton

               /  November 9, 2017

              And I have some for you; it’s spelled with a “c”.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  November 9, 2017

              I know and noticed but can”t edit here.

  5. Zedd

     /  November 9, 2017

    my 10c worth:

    1) Metiria has actually ‘paid for her errors of judgement’.. gone from parliament (lost her $160+k job).. so get over it Trav. etc.

    2) what about the ‘double-dipper from Dipton’: all very ‘hush-hush’ from the Tories. Many said he knew he was ‘bending the rules’ his whole family were living in Wlgtn & claiming for a house in his Sth Island electorate.

    3) a speech from Ron Mark yesterday; ‘We took the more difficult route’, going into coalition with Labour, with Greens as C-S support partner. BUT he clarified that NZF do in fact, have more in common with these parties (POLICY) than they do with Natz-Act. He also said they will likely get more of their Policy agenda through, in the current arrangement.

    So all the ‘nasty talk’ from Natz about Winston is just that; sign of a pack of sore LOSERS, scrambling for Relevance, post their DEFEAT !

    It was interesting watching Mr English doing a big rant, in the chamber yesterday.. looked like he is still ‘In Denial’ about losing the Govt. benches to Lab./NZF/Grns 😀

    • robertguyton

       /  November 9, 2017

      Love how Grns written beside a smiley face reads “grins” 🙂
      We’re grinning alright!
      Bill’s more grimace 😦

      • Zedd

         /  November 9, 2017

        hey robert.. you ‘stole some of my thunder’ but I got most of it in;
        “VIVA LA REVOLUCION !” 🙂

  6. Gezza

     /  November 9, 2017

    I’m just wondering how long it will be before Trevor throws Winston out of the Chamber.

    • Gezza

       /  November 9, 2017

      Dunno what the downticks are for? It’s going to happen, you KNOW it is.
      He mostly gets the heave ho for arguing with the Speaker.
      It’s so ingrained a habit I can’t see this changing, tbh.
      I mean, seriously, can you? 😳