Open Forum – Sunday

3 December 2017

Forum

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23 Comments

  1. PartisanZ

     /  December 3, 2017

    “But that which crowns all, and carries the condemnation of the present school, is the institution which proves the worthlessness of the entire system; the examination.

    Of course it is hardly possible to ascertain, otherwise than by a test, whether anyone is able to enumerate the dates of the reigns of all the sovereigns of their nation, or write out from memory a scene from a classical drama … (etc) …

    The question whether a child has matured, and has, in the development of their abilities and absorption of knowledge, been qualified to face life, must not be left to the accident of an examination, but … must be decided by the testimony OF THOSE WHO HAVE FOR YEARS ACCOMPANIED AND OBSERVED the child in their development.

    There is no lack of counter-movements, of the beginnings of a modern school nearer to life.” (Frank E Warner, 1944)

    ‘I Have A Dream’ looks like a movement with significant potential –

    “OUR NAVIGATORS are with them from their first years at school, until they reach the age of 20 to guide, encourage and support them on their journey to success”.

    https://www.ihaveadream.org.nz/

    The wisdom of great thinkers like Warner isn’t dead or retrograde. They don’t write books entitled ‘Future of Man’ with the intention to drag us back into some Medieval past. Warner was so far ahead of his time he predicted the 21st century ‘I Have A Dream’ Navigator (and a whole lot else besides)

    Who would we look to for guidance in ethics if not Socrates, Aristotle, J.S. Mill, Immanuel Kant and the other great think-feelers …?

    • Corky

       /  December 3, 2017

      ‘There is no lack of counter-movements, of the beginnings of a modern school nearer to life.”

      Educated people on the whole, don’t vote Left, Parti. Why do you think Marxist teacher unions are implacably opposed to charter schools?

      • PartisanZ

         /  December 3, 2017

        Semi-diversion Corks. Most charter schools I’ve heard about are not counter-movements at all. They are more retrograde, not less; especially with the inclusion of Church doctrines inimical to life in their cirricula, but also with the imposition of more, often military-like discipline and more examination or more rigorous overseas examination …

        This would, I imagine, be one aspect teacher unions are quite rightly concerned about …

        It’s a bit like being concerned about the erosion of the Church-and-State separation.

        Another concern, quite naturally, would be their employment and employment conditions, the maintenance of their ‘status quo’. How anyone on the ‘maintenance of the status quo’ Right could blame anyone for doing this fails any comprehension test I know of …

        • Corky

           /  December 3, 2017

          ”They are more retrograde, not less; especially with the inclusion of Church doctrines inimical to life in their curricula, but also with the imposition of more, often military-like discipline and more examination or more rigorous overseas examination …”

          While I don’t entirely disagree with those sentiments, I look at results for kids who failed in mainstream education. Kids who are now focused and learning. As for Church doctrine.. that has to be measured against current liberal doctrine taught in state schools with little oversight. Climate Change ( fact: man made). Environmentalism
          (always good) Gay Rights (no pitfalls. Always cool) Maori culture
          ( far better than European).

          • PartisanZ

             /  December 3, 2017

            I look at results for kids mainstream education has failed …

            Consider the alternatives: License to pollute? License to desecrate? License to persecute?

            On Maori culture I think you’re just doing a Don Brash. The school’s probably saying its equal, while you have a preconceived notion Maori culture is inferior.

            • Corky

               /  December 3, 2017

              Maori culture is historicallyi inferior. That’s a fact. Schools in their Marxist rush to be PC now put Maori culture ahead of any other culture.
              Have you been to any schools recently, Parti? I have. In the administration office I had to navigate past teko teko to find the wizzen lady behind the counter who gush ” Kia Ora, Whanau, Haere Mai.” I noticed ‘ Whitey’ received a rather less enthusiastic welcome. We are talking a decile 7 school; 80% European.

            • PartisanZ

               /  December 3, 2017

              Okay, going in reverse, so you’ve had a personal experience that didn’t suit you and that you are arguably predisposed to not liking.

              We also live in an environment where addressing Te Tiriti grievances, and any restoration of equality or partnership or even ‘a sound Treaty relationship’ is viewed by some, like you, as the granting of special privileges.

              Maori culture was absolutely not historically inferior. It was historically different. That is the only fact. The rest is judgement and opinion …

            • Corky

               /  December 3, 2017

              Carrying on in reverse:

              ”So you’ve had a personal experience that didn’t suit you and that you are arguably predisposed to not liking.”

              No, it’s endemic in our education system. The headmaster of the school involved called a meeting regarding Maori focused learning and culture.
              One meeting was general, the other Maori parents only. Of course, European weren’t told of the Maori only meeting( to my knowledge).

              At the general meeting we were told by the headmaster he had little room to move as these requirements were Education Ministry directives.

              The Maori meeting was split 50/50, with people like me just wanting the three r’s taught, while leaving culture outside the school. Other Maori wanted full immersion with Maori focused learning programmes. There was quite some ill feeling as is the ” Maori way.”

              I have no problem addressing proven historical grievances. But when Maori talk of modern grievances…count me out. And the country, too.

              ”Maori culture was absolutely not historically inferior. It was historically different. That is the only fact. The rest is judgement and opinion …”

              Now who’s playing semantics and proffering an opinion? Maori culture was inferior and that can be objectively proven. Being different is just stating the obvious.

            • PartisanZ

               /  December 3, 2017

              Reversing still …

              “Maori culture was inferior and that can be objectively proven”

              Objectively prove it then … subjective sir.

              It sounds like you need a Rightie safe space at the school Corky …?

              Matike Mai Report, and recently the Wai262 Claim and The Waitangi Tribunal’s Report on it lead me to believe that, astoundingly, Maori have an inordinate amount of goodwill towards The Crown and Pakeha, despite historical grievances …

              “Yet these [Pakeha] fears [of racial privilege] mask an underlying good will and mutual respect between New Zealand’s founding cultures. This has made the process of settling historical grievances possible, and is reflected in the increasing acknowledgement that ‘Māori identity and culture is now a vital aspect of New Zealand identity and culture’.

              New Zealand, the Tribunal says, is beginning a transition to a new and unique national identity. But for this transition to succeed, ‘Over the next decade or so, the Crown–Māori relationship, still currently fixed on Māori grievances, must shift to a less negative and more future focused relationship at all levels”.

              https://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/news/ko-aotearoa-tenei-report-on-the-wai-262-claim-released/

            • Corky

               /  December 3, 2017

              1- Technology
              2- Science
              3- Law
              4- The concept of private ownership.
              5- Understanding of the individual as distinct from the collective.
              6- Access to teachings of other great cultures.
              7- Agriculture
              8 Architecture. The great Cathedrals

              Your turn. Tell us about Maori achievements the world has benefited from? Haka, hangis and headhunting don’t count.

            • PartisanZ

               /  December 3, 2017

              Trollogy … [bugger it, new word # 109] …

              1) Appropriate technology, e.g. a stable, sustainable population …
              2) A belief system, just like science is at causal level.
              3) Lore – complete lack of crime, pre-European, as far as we know. Everybody conformed! Isn’t that a kind of Rightie ideal?
              4) The concept of both private and ‘public’ possession within a collective framework. Probably much like freedom WITH responsibility.
              5) How do we know they didn’t understand the individual distinct from the collective? Their mythology would tend to indicate they did …
              6) They lacked access to the teachings of other so-called ‘great’ but often failed, significantly altered – hence not great – or extinct – hence not great – cultures…
              7) Agriculture appropriate to their circumstances. A kind of sustainability, particularly during the ‘classic’ period of relatively permanent settlement.
              8) Situation-appropriate architecture with equally symbolic decoration and meaning to the Cathedrals of Europe …
              9) Navigation skills superior to Westerners hundreds of years before them.
              10) They didn’t have Wetiko disease …

              https://unsettlingamerica.wordpress.com/tag/wetiko/

              “Jack D. Forbes book about wetiko psychosis, “Columbus and other Cannibals” is, I think, the most important book ever written on one of the most important topics ever faced by human beings: why is the dominant culture so excruciatingly, relentlessly, insanely, genocidally, ecocidally, suicidally destructive?”

              Historian Arnold Toynbee points out that a civilization doesn’t die from being invaded from the outside, but unless it creates culture which nourishes the evolution of the creative spirit, a civilization invariably commits suicide”.

  2. Corky

     /  December 3, 2017

    Desperate situations demand desperate remedies. Governments tell us that constantly as they chip away at freedoms, actions and beliefs we previously held sacrosanct.

    So, why not Sky Television?

    http://www.voxy.co.nz/business/5/298879

    • PartisanZ

       /  December 3, 2017

      Indeed Corky, why not? Sky is behaving entirely appropriately to this thing you Righties love called ‘the Market’, sometimes quite illegitimately referred to as the ‘Free Market’ …

      If you want TPPA with Investor State Disputes then you want this sort of ‘market’ recourse to the Law, surely?

      • Corky

         /  December 3, 2017

        ”If you want TPPA with Investor State Disputes then you want this sort of ‘market’ recourse to the Law, surely?”

        So what is Jacinda doing about it?

        • PartisanZ

           /  December 3, 2017

          I’ve no idea Corky. What would you like her to do?

          • Corky

             /  December 3, 2017

            I don’t know. The juxtaposition is your problem.

            • PartisanZ

               /  December 3, 2017

              I’ll happily let the comparison sit …

            • PartisanZ

               /  December 3, 2017

              You, I notice, are successfully self-diverted from the subject of ‘market law’ by wanting to crucify Jacinda.

              I might add I addressed your original subject matter …

      • Trevors_elbow

         /  December 3, 2017

        No Sky are acting as a monopolist Parti.

        Trying to get the government to create barriers to entry.

        The whole sports and entertainment industry acts like this trying to enforce out moded geographical segmentation of markets which have been totally out flanked by a free market un digital streaming ….

        Keep up

        • PartisanZ

           /  December 3, 2017

          I didn’t say they weren’t “acting like a monopolist” Trevor …

          Have a look back up there and see … Go on … Quote me …

          It’s that points-scoring thing again, isn’t it …?
          You need to be Right … to win … to be better …

          And ultimately “Keep up” is all you’ve got to achieve it with … Sad.

          • Trevors_elbow

             /  December 4, 2017

            Monoply is not in accordance with the definition of a free market. You conflate monoplistic and ologopistic behaviour with free market behaviours… they are not the same. Its why we have regulatory intervention to maintain fair markets

            You conflate rule of the jungle and market behaviour all the time PartisanZ… ignoring what free markets truly are about

            I dont need to win… but its interesting your response when called on anything… your “im always right” mentality shows straight away

            • Once again…where are these ‘free markets’..you speak of?

            • PartisanZ

               /  December 4, 2017

              Okay trevors_elbow … (sigh) … Let’s split hairs …

              @trevors_elbow – “Monoply is not in accordance with the definition of a free market”

              This might be why I originally said, “…so-called ‘Market’, sometimes quite illegitimately referred to as the ‘Free Market’”.

              @t_e – “Its why we have regulatory intervention to maintain fair markets”

              Isn’t a Court of Law one component of this “regulatory intervention”?

              I’d rephrase part of that trevors_elbow. I’d say, ” … what free markets are THOUGHT to be about … by highly educated pseudo-academics like Von Mises, Rothbard, Freidman et al …. as opposed to ‘what they are DEMONSTRABLY about’ … which is much closer to Law of the Jungle