Open Forum – Friday

12 January 2018

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50 Comments

  1. David

     /  January 12, 2018

    Stuff are gearing up to sell more clicks as it tries to generate the news.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/100491366/editorial-no-sex-please-were-the-census
    International studies have the “questioning” or in the wrong body at 0.3% but please let us not go down the outrage path that the UK is going. The group most opposed to the nonsense we are witnessing is funnily enough the feminists, arguably it is women who lose out the most with the latest hysteria followed closely by the trans community themselves who all they want is respect and less limelight to quietly get on with transitioning.
    Womens sport for example could literally end at the professional level in tennis, wheightlifting, athletics and others.

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  January 12, 2018

      I hope we never end up going to the ludicrous extreme that now apparently exists in California and other places in the US where use of gender pronouns like ‘he’ and ‘she’ have actually been banned. People are required to use gender-neutral pronouns like ‘ze’ and ‘hir’.

      I only learned of this stupidity when it turned up on Fox News in an item last night about Stamford City, Connecticut voting to also ban the use of male & female pronouns from its rulebook. They had a member of the town council who was transgender & who didn’t see the point & thought it was silly.

      https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=gender+pronouns+banned+usa&rlz=1C9BKJA_enNZ715NZ715&oq=gender+pronouns+banned+usa&aqs=chrome..69i57.7662j0j7&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

      Reply
      • David

         /  January 12, 2018

        And the English girls school where you are not allowed to call the students “girls” which is daft seeing as it’s called something school for girls.
        It’s illegal in Canada now to address someone with the wrong gender.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  January 12, 2018

          Madness. I didn’t have a problem with the introduction of Ms into the lexicon, although for a while a few women did actually object if they preferred to be called Mrs or Miss.

          I don’t see any problem with continuing to use gender pronouns – it’s perfectly normal & has been in any culture for millenia.

          Transgenders have already elected to be the other gender. If assexuals object to being called ‘it’, which is gender-neutral, & can come up with their own preferred gender pronoun I’m happy to consider using that for whatever tiny group of confused individuals they’re part of.

          I can’t wonder how the French would react to someone suggesting they do this too. They assign masculine & feminine genders to most nouns. The table is la table, the pen is le plume, for example.

          It’s just dumb. “Oh, you’ve had a baby! How lovely! Is it a ze or a ze?”

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 12, 2018

            C’est la plume, Gezza, ce n’est pas le plume, The Romans had masculine, feminine and neuter…they’d have had more if there had been more, the sods.

            I wouldn’t bet on Les Frogs not being PC like everyone else.

            Reply
        • Gezza

           /  January 12, 2018

          The other thing I find interesting about that article you posted David is that it says “the LGBTI activists are correct in saying that without census data, there is no way of knowing exactly how numerous their community is or where it is located.”

          For one thing it’s missing the Q (for “Questioning”) which some now seem to argue should be considered a gender too, for heaven’s sake, so next it’ll be the A (for “Asexual”.

          And more importantly, most of these categories are not genders. They’re sexual preferences, or indicators of sexual behaviours, like Bisexual. What next? They’ll add C (for “Celibate”), & eventually start working their way thru porn sites assigning a letter for all the other weird & wonderful sexual proclivities small groups of people have?

          What these activists seem to really be asking for is a Census question on sexual preferences or sexual proclivities. Not gender.

          For gender why not just have Male, Female, Bit of Both, Confused?

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 12, 2018

            The fines are only for not calling transgender people by their preferred pronouns, not everyone else which would be ludicrous.

            There was a speaker at a girls’ school (or about one) who made herself ridiculous by wanting to ban rude words like girls, women and she-and was ridiculed worldwide. Is this what David is thinking of ?

            Reply
            • David

               /  January 12, 2018

              No Kitty it was the headmistress who banned “girls” just in case, I guess if you were a girl who wanted to be identified as a boy you would move to a boys school.
              I am as liberal as they come but I am struggling with the trans lobby, I have a lot of sympathy for someone genuinely in the wrong body but I forsee huge amounts of potential damage to kids who may be a bit girly or a bit tomboyish being pidgeon holed and being medicated to delay puberty by well meaning but misguided parents wanting their kids to be special.
              I believe the Tories are jumping on this to display how in touch they are too, I just dont see this ending well.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 12, 2018

              Yes, I see that you are right…how stupid, A tiny% are trans, and if they were at a girls’ school….why not just refer to them (if there are any) as whatever they want to be called ?

              I thought that you meant the other story-can there be two people so stupid ?

              Yes, by the look of it.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 12, 2018

              I still can’t believe the stupidity, My guess is that it will be a non-starter. I hope,

          • David

             /  January 12, 2018

            Gezza I think Stats should focus on what the point of the census is which aside from a snapshot is used mainly for forward planning to anticipate the communities needs. As you say its not for what people get up to in their personal lives and you can imagine with 50 something thousand people being Jedi,s the data would be pretty unreliable anyway given Kiwi,s sense of humour.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2018

              Yes I agree David. Male and female are people’s genders.

              These other groups are a mix of self-identified sexual identities and / or sexual orientations.

              It’s not so much that the question shouldn’t be asked perhaps, but that they be separate questions – if it’s any business of the state what sexual orientation someone has, and I’m not sure that it is.

              I had a larf at the number who identified Jedi as their religion too.
              I had a flatmate in my 20’s who answered a

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2018

              whoops

              … census question on the method of transport used to get to work with “helicopter”. He biked.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 12, 2018

              An Auckland designer thinks that women are so stupid that they won’t know that a size 18 is the same as an XL and will be happier buying a garment that is labelled with numbers rather than S, M, L etc as ‘women ought not to be called extra-large’. We aren’t called (size), it’s the garment that is. The garment is the same size whether it’s labelled in letters or numbers, and unless the label is worn outside, who will see ? No matter how the name is changed, the appearance of the person won’t be,

              She claims that women are happy to wear tracksuits if…oh, it’s too silly to go on.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 12, 2018

              I am on the electoral roll as bibliophile.

              Someone was down as ‘doting nana’. I am not inventing this, I have seen it, How sad if that is all some person is.

  2. Corky

     /  January 12, 2018

    I find this clip a little scary. I don’t perceive the same level of political knowledge or coherent thought when New Zealanders are interviewed randomly on the street.

    Could it be our education system? Or, as Michael Laws says, we are becoming browner and dumber? But that wouldn’t account for white interviewees rambling incoherently.

    I like to think this dude just lucked out by interviewing intelligent Japanese. So, relax. Everything is kapai.

    Reply
    • duperez

       /  January 12, 2018

      Could it be our education system? Or could it be editing and choice of subjects (meaning people) to present? Could it be the agenda of the producers? Could it be the framework about milliseconds which tv news works around?

      The scary thing is anyone being scared enough to draw serious conclusions from the clip. And to take what Michael Laws says too seriously.

      Reply
      • Corky

         /  January 12, 2018

        Perceive:

        ”To recognise, discern, envision, or understand.”

        My perceptions may be different from yours, either objectively or subjectively.

        ”Could it be the agenda of the producers? Could it be the framework about milliseconds which tv news works around?”

        Agenda? No. Why? There’s no need for an agenda unless I paid the producers to edit their clip to suit my perceptions. I have taken the guy who produced the clip on his word when he said he did no editing. That of course doesn’t account for ” no comments,” or the extreme editing of MSM interviews. And of course he may have lied.

        ”The scary thing is anyone being scared enough to draw serious conclusions from the clip. And to take what Michael Laws says too seriously.”

        The conclusions I have drawn from the clip( and reinforced my perceptions) are the same I have held for years. You cannot watch TV news without noticing the dearth of intellectual grunt. Example:

        Reporter-Why are you protesting?
        I’ve got kids. They don’t need this bs with that guy on the street.
        Reporter- He’s done his time?
        Yeah, but he shouldn’t be on da street.

        As for Laws. Well, lets say I take him a little more seriously than you. How you could conclude my comments were serious conclusions is beyond me.

        Still, you have kudos with trolls.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  January 12, 2018

          Your so-called dearth of intellectual grunt in random interviews with the “person in the street” is nothing different from times gone by. In fact when it came to political matters 40 or 50 years ago the “average” man or woman in the street was often just as vague & uninformed in their responses as they are today if you watch some old news or current affairs clips from back then. Many of them now look quaintly vaccuous.

          It matters greatly who is approached, what level of education they have, where the interviews are done, and what the topic is.

          Your comment just looks another typical example of you finding a snide way to bash a racial group and state school teachers.

          Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  January 12, 2018

          One is too small a sample to prove anything, Corks, and this was a protest about someone undesirable living near families (a paedophile ?) which is not the same sort of topic at all.

          Reply
    • Gezza

       /  January 12, 2018

      Have to agree with dupers’ here, especially his last paragraph.

      And for another thing, a lot of those Japanese he shows commenting are wearing glasses. So he could have deliberately chosen them because that already suggested they’d be brainy?

      How do you know that he hasn’t translated some of what they said into English that is completely different from what they were saying in Japanese?

      Or that their Japanese itself isn’t shockingly bad and rambling? Do you speak Japanese.

      And of course some of them do actually say some silly things. They might be prats?

      Still, thanks for sharing

      Reply
    • Joe Bloggs

       /  January 12, 2018

      Happy days, Corky! Enjoying all that winning?

      From 18 December 2015 Public Policy Polling findings comes this gem

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  January 12, 2018

        Glasses are not only worn by intelligent people-poor eyesight is not confined to the clever.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  January 12, 2018

          Thanks for that. I already knew that cos I has glasses and so does Corky.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 12, 2018

            If I was asked about Agrabah (I hadn’t heard the name before) I’d look it up, I hope, even if I was trigger-happy about bombing-I’d want to see where it was that I was in favour of bombing.

            A large % of people in a UK survey thought that Timbuctoo wasn’t a real place. I did by that time, but was surprised, I must admit. And a large % didn’t know which was right-the earth going round the sun or the sun going round the earth,

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 12, 2018

              I thought that Waikikamukau was a real place until I was at high school 😀

            • Corky

               /  January 12, 2018

              You may be able to beat Gezza to the punch, if you hurry.

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2018

              ?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 12, 2018

              Some of those were the same person being seen again.

              I didn’t think that they said anything very profound or intellectual-they were mostly predictable.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 12, 2018

              He wants us to say that it’s obvious that he’s a prat and a hypocrite.

            • Patu

               /  January 12, 2018

              Waiwhakamukau, Kitty. Get it right please. However, if one pronounces it properly, ‘kau’ is pronounced like ‘coe’ would be in English (silent ‘e’). So no bovines involved… 😉 You’re welcome 😛

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 13, 2018

              Waikikamukau was the version we knew-there are a few variations, I know.

              I heard ‘waewae express’ not that long ago-I hadn’t heard anyone say that for ages. It was a young girl. The bus had broken down and she decided to walk rather than wait-she would take the waewae express.

  3. sorethumb

     /  January 12, 2018

    But what about all the others, Paul Spoonley
    Posted on December 17, 1995
    Immigration and National Identity in New Zealand: One People, Two Peoples, Many Peoples?
    Stuart W Greif (ed)
    https://nzbooks.org.nz/1995/non-fiction/but-what-about-all-the-others-paul-spoonley/

    Notice the arguments re biculturalism here and notice that only one side came out on top – and that doesn’t necessarily reflect the strengths of the arguments but have been “informed” by (based on) critical white studies studies etc

    On Dalmation culture and intermarriage
    So strong have the cultural ties been and so attractive and versatile the culture itself that not even frequent intermarriage with Maori and pakeha alike has cut these people off from a respect for a participation in their ethnic inheritance. (p13)

    That is an argument against bi/multiculturalism because it requires no state involvement (is organic). Spoonley argues against there being a Dalmation culture as Mathewman does against there being a Pakeha culture:

    Yet those labelled Pākehā have Scots, Irish, English, Welsh, Croatian, Dutch and other ancestry, and all of the cultural and historical differences that this entails. As arguably the foremost theorist of Pākehā ethnicity has said of his own family: ‘We were New Zealanders, but Irish New Zealanders. Although statistics may have lumped us among the almost ninety percent of the population descended from the European migration, we did not feel like members of a majority’ (King (1985:29). Those so lumped now occupy the same terrain and they have the same skin colour. But beyond phenotype and physical location, what do they share? David Pearson (1989) claims that Pākehā fall short of an actual ethnic group, occupying the more nebulous position of ethnic category. James Urry (1990:20-21) adds that even then ‘it is an empty category as it does not represent an identity but merely means non-Māori’. And what sort of ethnic identity assumes the shadow of the subject, and takes on the position of the Other (Bell 1996:154)? Why do Pākehā take someone else’s name as their own?

    Pit this with Strategic essentialism
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_essentialism

    Feeding on a pervasive and all‑enveloping sense of European guilt, the “indigenous” cultures begin to claim ever‑expanding spheres of privilege while nursing real grievances and inventing new ones. (p260)

    Spoonley
    “He argues that it is possible to be American and Irish and that assimilation has not excluded the potential for ethnic minorities to maintain their own identity. But this, he goes on, has been done without government involvement and individuals are free to choose between identities. In the wake of the events in Los Angeles over recent years, the idea of choice or that all Americans have equal access to resources such as justice or education will come as news to blacks or hispanics.”

    On RNZ Kim Hill argues that part of the reason for adding te reo to te RNZ is to heal Maori under achievement/ high imprisonment rate. What we are seeing is the evolution of culture and identity managed [subverted?] by state ideologues. The state picks (essentialises) an identity and fortifies it with tax payer funds through bureaucracy and academia (Margaret Mutu).Their legitimacy arises from media show trials.

    Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  January 12, 2018
      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  January 12, 2018

        There’s no Pakeha culture as such. How can there be ? Think how many languages there are for a start. It’s a handy label-X is the Pakeha bus driver. I wish that people would do Pakeha the courtesy of giving it a capital.

        In Elizabethan England, it was part of the culture to greet women with a kiss on the lips when one was introduced to them. I’m glad that it’s not now. ‘This is my wife, Kitty.’ ‘How nice to meet you, Kitty-MWAH !’

        Reply
        • sorethumb

           /  January 12, 2018

          I think Pakeha should have some say as to whether they have a unique identity. The late Michael King argues that they do. One of his arguments was “how long did it take polynesians to decide they were no longer from the islands but belonged in this land.
          After several generations of my family’s occupation of this land, my own sense of belonging to it—and hence the flavour of my own culture—includes the following ingredients: a strong relationship with the natural world intensified by living by the sea, boating, fishing, tramping and camping; an engagement with the history of the land, which began with my boyhood encounters with kainga, whaling and battle sites around Paremata Harbour; a relationship with the literature of this country, especially the writing of such people as Robin Hyde, Charles Brasch, Frank Sargeson, Eric McCormick, Keith Sinclair, James K. Baxter and Janet Frame; and a relationship with Maori people, Maori writing and Maori history, which affects my view of all the preceding elements.
          My identification with Pakeha culture is also a consequence of an accumulation of other New Zealand attitudes, values and habits which accrue to one living here like iron filings to a magnet. I am referring to such things as the rugby culture, which absorbed almost all New Zealand males of my generation and those immediately preceding it; a willingness to have a go at any kind of job opportunity that presented itself, and to learn about the job on the job (I recall Stephanie Dowrick saying that in London publishing houses, an English staff member could edit a manuscript or tie up a paper parcel, whereas a New Zealander in the same office could do both); a concern for the underdog; compassion for those in need or in trouble; an unwillingness to be bullied, or to be intimidated by class or status; not undertaking to do something without seeing it through (what Dan Davin, in a very New Zealand metaphor, referred to as “a kind of power behind the scrum that was often lacking in one’s more fastidious English colleagues”).
          Another ingredient in this equation is having New Zealand heroes and heroines and for me, they were such people I knew about from childhood as Cliff Porter, J.T. Paul, Denis Clover, Charles Upham, Suzanne Aubert, Francois Delach; and later, such figures as Robin Hyde, William Malone, Howard Kippenberger, Ormond Wilson, Frank Sargeson, E.H. McCormick and Janet Frame. There were also Maori who were part of my personal pantheon—Te Whiti o Rongomai, Te Rau-o-te-rangi, Huria Matenga, Te Puea, Sir James Henare, Whina Cooper; and, one would have to say, having access to Maori experience and Maori role models is one of the features that distinguishes Pakeha culture from its cultures of origin.
          Pakeha culture shares some ingredients with its largely European cultures of origin: such as the English language, the Westminster Parliamentary system, the traditions and the conventions of the Open Society, in which every person is entitled to seek truth through a process of unfettered investigation and open disputation. But the forms and the proportions in which those imported ingredients have coalesced in New Zealand has made them somewhat different in character from their antecedents and hence characteristic of Pakeha culture rather than of European culture.
          If anyone doubts this, they have only to travel abroad, to do the much-valued “OE”, to discover that this is so. And what one discovers is that one may feel a sense of affinity in places such as England, or (in my case) Ireland, or Scotland. But that that sense of affinity is not the same as feeling at home. In fact no sooner is one separated for a substantial length of time from New Zealand voices, viewpoints or even the sense of humour, than one misses it, and knows oneself to be from and of New Zealand, and not from and of any other place on earth.
          Travel overseas at the age of thirty confirmed and emphasised for me that it is New Zealand and its experience and traditions, Maori and Pakeha, that is in my bones; and that there is no other part of the globe in which I would want to live or could live with the same sense of belonging and enrichment.

          http://www.sof.org.nz/origins.htm

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 13, 2018

            If one assumes that a Pakeha is a white Kiwi, then, yes…but in the wider sense of Pakeha meaning a white person, then there can’t possibly be a white identity. I can’t see that a Swede has much in common with an Irishman except their colour.

            I remember how pronounced the NZ accent sounded when I came back. An Englishwoman I knew said that her family sounded very affected to her after some time away.

            Reply
    • Gezza

       /  January 12, 2018

      Ok. I will.

      US shock jock Howard Stern has labelled Kiwi singer Lorde a ‘shithead’
      Well, she’s obviously not a shithead, she gave the matter considerable thought and listened to various viewpoints before reaching a decision she said she thought was the best one for now.

      who should start a ‘F**k the Jews’ world tour.”
      Except that this is not at all what she thinks of the Jews, or the Israelis and she has said nothing at all that suggests she does.

      He’s the latest pro-Israel voice to unload on the 21-year-old, who last month announced a show in Tel Aviv, then cancelled it after “an overwhelming number of messages and letters” asking her not to perform.
      Well, there you go, he’s a pro-Zionist anti-Arab bigot, obviously. Has to be, doesn’t he?

      Since cancelling the concert, the ‘Royals’ singer has been called a “bigot” by US comedian Roseanne Barr and targeted in a full-page advert in the Washington Post.
      Maybe Donald Trump was right about Roseanne?

      I see the rest of his comments are more of the same sort of moronic utterances so I won’t bother translating them for you.

      So, there you go. That’s as it is.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  January 12, 2018

        I think that she has shown poor judgement and a lack of courage.

        The concert would have been gone and forgotten by now, but cancelling it has made more publicity than it would have had.

        Howard Stern can’t talk about people being shitheads-didn’t he call Ivanka Trump ‘a piece of ass.’ ? More shame to the piece of ass’s father for not rearranging the face of anyone who referred to his daughter in that way-or at the very least walking out of the studio instead of laughing. Two soulmates.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  January 12, 2018

          I think that’s true. Poor judgement agreeing to do a concert there in the first place, and then compounded that by cancelling it, obviously not realising that the apartheid Israeli government’s well-oiled and US-connected PR machine & their Zionist supporters around the world would immediately crank up to abuse her as much as possible.

          She’s just invited a heap of grief on herself if tries to perform in the US with the screaming Zionist bigots likely to stir things up for her wherever she appears there now & that could even includes twits like Trump & his sycophantic entourage & family.

          I hardly think you could call her decision not to appear as showing a lack of courage though. Just naivety. It’;s a good lesson to other artists though. Just don’t go there until they sort their shit out with the Palestinians.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  January 12, 2018

            I agree she was naive. She could have countered with an offer to do a free concert in Palestine – if she could be sure she wouldn’t get killed there.

            Reply
            • Corky

               /  January 12, 2018

              ”If she could be sure she wouldn’t get killed there.”

              That says a lot in this debate. Of course she wouldn’t be safe in Palestine.
              More than a few would like the honour of putting her head on a pole. That would be a good lesson for this immoral bimbo infidel.

            • Gezza

               /  January 12, 2018

              That’s really what I mean by naive. It might not be safe for someone like her to give a performance in Gaza. And it’s not a good idea to give succour to an apartheid regime in Israel either. Best to just not go there until they fairly sort out the Palestinian state issue.

              I saw on Aljaz last night yet the Zionist-controlled Isaeli government has just approved the construction of more than 1,000 new illegal settlement units in the occupied West Bank.

              Trump having obviously effectively given the green light to Bibi and his henchmen to take whatever Palestinian land they want. Stoking the fire.

    • sorethumb

       /  January 12, 2018

      Is Lorde saying F** the Jews or is she keeping on side?

      Reply
  4. sorethumb

     /  January 12, 2018

    Reply

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