Have we started the year off ugly and angry?

Politics seems to have kicked off early this year, largely because of the attention being given to Donald Trump (New Zealand politics is only slowly emerging from holiday time).

Anger and affront – whether real or an activist tactic – is one of the more visible aspects of political discussion, so naturally some people have started the year angry.

An unusually perceptive post from Martyn Bradbury looks at this – Glitterboobs, tinned tomatoes, racist menus and golliwogs – have we started the year off angry?

I tend to want to follow politics, economics and the political process because with an untested left wing Government, a looming economic crash and an orange fuckwit on the nuclear button, the shit storm that is about to hit demands our full attention.

But sometimes things happen and people say things that are so ugly and ignorant you need to pause and just say, ‘Oi. You. No!’

Have we started the year in an ugly and angry way? I think we have and I think some of the ugliness in our dialogue has been fuel injected by social media platforms where vilification and maximum emotional outrage have rendered us too fried and bitter to even bother checking the better angels of our nature’s twitter feed.

Social media has enabled an overdose of ‘cry wolf’ outrage. It has become difficult to see the issues that really deserve attention amongst the plethora of petty attacks.

I’m still not sure whether Trump is a reactive self obsessed idiot, or a carefully staged act to mask what he or his handlers are trying to achieve quietly. I suspect it’s a mix of both.

I look at the four issues that have recently erupted on social media and some of the things I see people saying is woefully stupid and just misplaced fear and anger that is being spouted by wounded and insecure individuals.

If a woman is walking naked in public, you don’t have any right whatsoever to touch her. Yes, self-defence law doesn’t cover her chasing the dickhead who did this down and hitting him four times in the head, but that’s a side salad to the initial issue of him sexually assaulting her in public in the first place. There’s no defence in the world where it’s justifiable to grope her. None. Zip. Why the Christ are you still trying to justify that?

If you are getting indignant about being told what food to donate to women who are escaping domestic violence, perhaps you need to appreciate that charity isn’t pretty. It’s ugly and real. If you are offended that women in a state of shock from domestic violence require comfort food as opposed to a Jamie Oliver ingredient list, then perhaps you need to check who this charity is actually for, you or the person you are donating it to.

If you think racist menus are funny because they make fun of the way people speak, it not only demeans the food you are cooking, it demeans you as a person. The needlessness of the spite and the joy in revelling in the ‘naughtiness’  of being politically incorrect speaks to a pretty base level ignorance that is childish and beneath everyone. How can an asian restaurant do justice to the spirit of the kai when that restaurant is mocking and humiliating the culture that kai comes from?

(If your main concern was me throwing in the word ‘kai’ in that last sentence, you’re either someone who thinks this menu is hilarious or Don Brash.)

Talking of Don Brash – Golliwogs.

I appreciate you might have had a Golliwog when you were a kid. I appreciate you cuddled up to the Golliwog and I appreciate that you aren’t racist. I get that. However the Golliwog is a crass caricature of the very racist Black and White Minstrels and just like the n word, it’s not really something white people get to claim. And yes, unfortunately sensitivities to many centuries of slavery and racism do in fact outrank your childhood memories.

This last one is a tricky one. I get that we should all be more sensitive to what may offend others. But should we sanitise our pasts and presents in case someone might be offended by something?

Sometimes people are quite justified in being offended.

But sometimes – increasingly via social media – people use ‘offence’ as an excuse to attack or to shut down valid debate.

In each of these four examples,  the Glitterboobs, tinned tomatoes, racist menus and golliwogs, people are wanting to be wilfully offensive to one another. It’s not a case of ‘forgive me I didn’t realise that’, it’s a case of, “Fuck you I don’t care”.

That’s correct – to an extent. Some people are deliberately offensive to attract attention – Cameron Slater is a good example of this.

But some people deliberately claim offence when none was intended. Just about any time I comment at The Standard people (a small number) pile in claiming offence, deliberately misrepresenting and making false accusations. This is a widespread problem in social media – ‘offence’ is used as an attack weapon.

Perhaps it’s because the first reaction is always, ‘you racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/xenophobic heteronormative patriarchal redneck…’ that people’s heels dig in as deeply as they do. Social media has bypassed gatekeeper media, but it’s also unleashed a cacophony of resentment that removes compassion in favour of online assassinations.

That’s a big statement from Bradbury, because he has been known to have some fairly over the top first reactions.

The ugly anger being spouted by many on social issues that cut to the very heart of our individual identities is a backlash long in coming. The wounds that so many are speaking from can’t be argued with, they need to heal first before they can listen and I don’t  think there is going to be a lot of listening in 2018.

He is right that some wounded people can’t be argued with, it is too emotional for them to see other points of view. Some have suffered for their lifetime.

But politics is different to a large extent.

Some of the worst arguing and not listening on political issues is not from a position of personal aggrievement, it isn’t based on personal hurt and suffering. It is based on perceptions and ideological passions that often bear little resemblance to reality.

Is there a way of separating real personal wounds from impassioned political activism? If there is it won’t be easy.

Having thought this through perhaps Bradbury can address some of this at The Daily Blog this year. Not everyone will start to listen this year, but if he puts more thought into posts like this, if he reduces his own anger and ugliness,  Bradbury may increase his audience and change political discourse for the better.

And each of us could do likewise.

Anger can be an essential safety valve, but ongoing ugliness is counter productive to making social and political progress.

136 Comments

  1. Blazer

     /  January 16, 2018

    I think your piece is called…’damning with..faint..praise’!

    • No, it’s genuine praise, it’s a very good post by Bradbury.

      • PDB

         /  January 16, 2018

        Bradbury is like the people who say they drive brilliantly whilst everybody else on the road doesn’t.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  January 16, 2018

          Gollies were around for many decades before the Black and White Minstrels; they are from stories by Florence Upton.They are about 100 years old-and could, of course, be older in reality.

          People object to black rag dolls but not white ones-why is this ? White rag dolls are no more like real people than gollies are.The ordinary ones, I mean, not the ones made by skilled craftspeople. One uses wool for their hair because it’s cheap, easy to find and easy to work with.Redheads have orange hair, blondes have yellow. Neither looks like human hair, but one accepts it for what it is !

          • Blazer

             /  January 16, 2018

            Jemima’s hair may be made of wool…but Barbies is made of…nylon,I think you’ll…find.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 16, 2018

              Barbie isn’t a rag doll. I don’t know who you mean by Jemima, but suspect that you mean a black rag doll.

              Rag dolls almost always have hair made of wool. Well, acrylic ‘wool’, probably, because it’s cheaper and easier to wash. There’s an ad for something that shows a little girl emptying a money box to buy a rag doll with pink hair that is obviously ‘wool’ .

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 16, 2018

              I don’t think that any dolls now are still made with nylon hair-that would be very old-fashioned. They may have been in the 1960s.

            • Hollyfield

               /  January 16, 2018

              Kitty, Jemima was the ragdoll on Playschool – either you didn’t watch Playschool, or I watched it far too much! She was very, very white with red hair. I loved the name Jemima when I was growing up –
              possibly because it was so exotic to me, there no Jemimas at my school.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 16, 2018

              Oh. I had heard of that Jemima, but had forgotten her-I didn’t watch Playschool. Ted, Jemima, Manu…

              I had a rag doll called Susan who had yellow hair 🙂 She was very white, too. Like Jemima, she was probably made from white cotton. Pink rag dolls can look a bit odd, so white is a safe option. They are not going to look like real people, anyway.

              I found an old one in an opshop-dating, I believe from the 40s or even 30s. The poor thing is no beauty, I must admit. I think that a child may have embroidered the face.

  2. alloytoo

     /  January 16, 2018

    The left are angry, they’re perpetually angry, they thought that after labour stole the election they wouldn’t be angry, but they still are because they don’t really know what they’re angry about so they rail against straw men of colonisation, globalisation, neo liberalism, capitalism, (any “ism” really, including orgasm).

    What’s more they so busy putting their energy into being angry and it’s associated activities of protesting and being morally outraged at sausage makers displaying pictures of free range pigs (For example), that they never actually produce anything of value.

    Meanwhile the rest of us occasionally stop working to be alternatively angry and amused.

    Laughter is after all the best medicine.

    • Blazer

       /  January 16, 2018

      I’m laughing right…now…’, they thought that after labour stole the election they wouldn’t be angry,’…I think you may find its the Right that are angry….it is their claim that Labour ‘stole’ the election.Get over..it!

      • alloytoo

         /  January 16, 2018

        Perhaps “Bought” (from Winston) would be a better description, however, as I said, the Right are not perpetually angry irrespective of circumstances (Far too busy for that), whereas the left seem to be,

    • Patzcuaro

       /  January 16, 2018

      We would probably still practice things like slavery and apartheid without the angry left (or progressives). What incentive would there have been for the conservative right to stop these practices, there was money to be made.

      The West is lucky to have angry progressives, pushing the boundaries to a better world, the conservatives would be more than happy with their cosy status quo.

      Would you prefer the conservatism of the Islamic world where being progressive is a capital offence. I’m happy in the progressive West even though we have the ball and chain of conservatism, at least it is around the ankle not the neck.

      • PartisanZ

         /  January 16, 2018

        Utmost respect for that one Patzcuaro … top comment …

        • PartisanZ

           /  January 16, 2018

          Aotearoa New Zealand has lost an enormous measure in progressive possibilities due to your “ball and chain of conservatism” Patzcuaro. A planned Auckland including transport infrastructure is one such absent legacy cited by Chris Trotter in NO LEFT TURN …

          “[Under Holland’s First National government] the Auckland isthmus was to be developed according to the model pioneered by Vogel and Coates. Urban development would be accomplished by means of the transfer of social capital into private hands … the private automobile, not the electrified rail unit, would provide the principal mode of transportation in the new, sub-urbanised society …

          The new model was a ‘one way bet’ for every person with the money (and the right inside knowledge) to start speculating in real estate … Land speculation had been impossible under Labour … still discouraged by the 1926 Town & Country Planning Act, which applied a 50 percent Betterment Tax on the sale of land holdings adjoining urban boundaries … National abolished the Betterment Tax …

          Gone was the nation in which access to an affordable, comfortable and – yes – beautiful home would become the right of every citizen … Fraser’s disastrous 1946 – 49 campaign … followed by Holland’s successful all-out assault in 1951, destroyed the only reservoir of political energy large enough to make a social-democratic Auckland – and hence New Zealand – a feasible proposition.

          The chaotic cities that arose out of the clay and scoria of Auckland … were also breeding grounds for an antithetical sort of citizen … ‘One dimensional man’ was a privatized and politically stunted individual, driven by what Marcuse’s colleague, the social-psychologist Erich Fromm, had dubbed the ‘fear of freedom’ …

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 16, 2018

            Whoops … end quotes … NO LEFT TURN, by Chris Trotter, Chapter 8, ‘The Auckland that never was’ … pg 218 – 220.

      • sorethumb

         /  January 16, 2018

        Johathon Haidt is making people rediscover the value of tradition. and this may be the issue: progressives are stretching the capabilities of human nature. One thing that is becoming realised is that it is religion which binds society and that this is not just sophisticated formal religion but informal. Eg progressives bond around racism to the degree that they load society with unrealistic expectations (such as diversity without unity).

      • Missy

         /  January 16, 2018

        Interesting you suggest that the angry left are responsible for abolishing slavery. William Wilberforce was an independent who provided cross party support, so neither Conservative nor ‘angry Left’, and Abraham Lincoln who abolished slavery in the US was a Republican.

        Also, that you claim the ending of apartheid for the ‘angry left’ is not completely correct, it was the ideologically conservative politician FW De Klerk that ended apartheid.

        To suggest it is the angry progressives pushing the boundaries while the Conservatives are happy with the status quo is disingenuous.

        Many of those so-called angry progressives are the ones today wanting to drag women’s rights back by turning all women into victims and placing the rights of trans women (i.e.: biological men) over those of biological women; wanting to censor media; wanting to silence all opposition; wanting to ‘re-educate’ those that they believe do not think correctly or hold the correct views.

        It is the angry progressives that are trying to silence opposition and showing intolerance to differing views and fueling the rise of the extreme right. It is the angry progressives that are allowing the conservatism of the Islamic World to creep into your progressive west, allowing their views to flourish as they shut down those that try to criticise it or speak out. It is the angry progressives that silenced white girls being raped by the grooming gangs in the UK, it is the angry progressives that drove not one, but two, of their own members to suicide in the UK through their witch hunts. I am sorry but I would rather live in a world without the angry progressives, from what I have seen and experienced they are not the people I want in my corner.

        And to conflate (whether intentionally or not) the Conservative right with Conservative Islam is just wrong.

        • PDB

           /  January 16, 2018

          You posted at the same time as I did and summed up the nonsense of Patz’s statements far better. Great post.

        • Thanks Missy. Excellent. As usual

        • PartisanZ

           /  January 16, 2018

          @Missy – “And to conflate (whether intentionally or not) the Conservative right with Conservative Islam is just wrong.”

          As is the conflation of ‘angry’ with Left …

          Alloytoo set the tone, laid the bait … and any chance of rational dialogue is lost because Left must equal angry … Patzcuaro ‘took the bait’ IMHO, although s/he did say [only the word] “progressives” in brackets … I took her to mean ‘Left’, not ‘angry Left’ …

          Also, to assert that the angry Left is responsible for “fuelling the rise of the extreme right” is rather like saying that Negroes fueled the rise of the Klu Klux Klan, an invitation perhaps to have ‘chicken and egg’ debates rather than reasonable dialogue?

          I am of the considered opinion that many and perhaps most conservatives, in their calls for harsher sentences and capital punishment are asking for a kind of so-called ‘secular’ Western-Christendom form of Sharia Law … What might perhaps be called Old Testament Law? Pre-Christian Law?

          • PDB

             /  January 16, 2018

            PZ: “rather like saying that Negroes fueled the rise of the Klu Klux Klan”

            Of course the Democrats created the Klu Klux Klan…..

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 16, 2018

              Since when have Democrats and Republicans been anything other than Right and Further Right?

              Also modern-day definitions of ‘Left’ and ‘Right’ can’t be exactly or literally applied to antebellum or post-abolition/reconstruction America because they are largely products of the era 1900 – 1950 …

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 16, 2018

            “angry Left” or “angry progressives” appears 10 times in your post Missy …

            Sounds kinda angry to me …

            • Missy

               /  January 17, 2018

              I always thought you were reasonably intelligent, so this comment is either showing I was wrong (which I doubt), or is deliberately baiting. I am sure you understood my use of those phrases PartisanZ.

        • Patzcuaro

           /  January 16, 2018

          @Missy do you really believe that the ideologically conservative politician FW De Klerk ended apartheid of his own free will. It was pressure from the rest of the world that forced the decision upon him and it is to his credit that he had the wisdom to take the high road rather than the low road. In NZ’s case it certainly wasn’t conservative provincial NZ that put the pressure on him it was the progressive urban NZ that did.

          I would imagine the same happened with the end of slavery, individual names such as Lincoln & Wilberforce are remembered but it would have been a wider pressure from progressives that brought the change about.

          Looking at it from another direction, the migration of Muslims to the West is as a result of the conservatism of the ruling elite in their countries coupled with the lack of economic progress due to years of exploitation by West economies. If a conservative born in the West had been born in a Muslim country chances are they would still be a conservative.

          I see the abuse of women as being a more male issue rather than a Muslim issue, if you take the Muslims out of the population there will still be abuse of women by men. It is more about power, Weinstein being a perfect example but it happens through all levels of society.

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 16, 2018

            Patzcuaro, Nothing short of brilliant … thank you.

          • Missy

             /  January 17, 2018

            Do you really believe that FW De Klerk ended apartheid against his own free will? Despite being ideologically conservative he was a reformer, and it was with the support of Margaret Thatcher that he managed to end apartheid. It may have been the progressives noisily protesting, throwing flour and smoke bombs, facing down police, and causing disruption to people going about their business, but they were not the ones that ended apartheid, though it was a form of international pressure that helped end it – Margaret Thatcher was the one that put the pressure on De Klerk that led to Mandela being released, but I don’t believe that would have happened if De Klerk didn’t want it as well, his predecessor was certainly immune to any pressure.

            The stopping of the expansionism of slavery in the US was a Republican Party policy, backed by Lincoln, however, from all accounts I am aware of (though someone better versed in US history may know more) Lincoln had always been morally against Slavery, and as I understand it he was under no pressure from any progressives to end slavery, but rather was attacked from all sides for first limiting slavery, and then ending it in DC and neighbouring states before making ending slavery national.

            As for William Wilberforce, unlike Lincoln he had not been morally opposed to Slavery all his life, but rather came to it when he became more religious. In the UK in the 18th century the abolitionist movement was led by the churches, not progressives as such.

            Interesting that you see the migration of Muslims to the West as a result of the conservatism in their countries, you appear to be ascribing progressiveness to the Muslims that migrate to the West, (i.e.: they want to leave the conservatism of their countries and live a more progressive lifestyle), this is inherently wrong, as many of the Muslims that migrate to Europe are very Conservative in their beliefs, the enforce Sharia Law and live a life separate from society, progressive values are only adhered to when it suits them, that is when Islam is criticised, or concern expressed at the values being taught in schools and mosques, and then it is only to be able to shout down the critics and call them Islamaphobics – joined of course by the progressives who support them in their complaints.

            Your last paragraph appears to be deflecting from my points. I never said abuse of women was a solely muslim issue, nor did I talk about it in depth. If you are referring to my referencing of the grooming gangs then I will say that it is a well established fact that 10,000’s of young white girls were targeted and abused by gangs of men that were disproportionately Muslim from the sub continent, it is a well established fact (directly from interviews with some of the victims) that the girls were told by the authorities not to mention the race or religion of the attackers, it is a well established fact that many of the girls were considered to not be credible so the CPS did not pursue the prosecutions initially, it is a well established fact that members of the councils were aware of the situation and did nothing, it is a well established fact that in the majority of the cities this happened the councils were led by progressives.

      • PDB

         /  January 16, 2018

        Patz: “We would probably still practice things like slavery and apartheid without the angry left (or progressives”

        Which is total nonsense of course – such issues faced opposition from a bunch of people of different political leanings. A heap of ‘progressives’ supported Hitler as well so do you also take credit for that?

        Patz: “Would you prefer the conservatism of the Islamic world where being progressive is a capital offence.”

        The irony here is that it is in the main ‘progressives’ who turn a blind eye to aspects of the Islamic world that they would normally oppose.

        • Patzcuaro

           /  January 16, 2018

          It is easy to pick examples that support your argument, did progressives support Hitler? You could say the conservative establishment acquiesced to Hitler’s rule to maintain their position in society.

          Do progressives turn a blind eye to aspects of the Islamic world? Again you could say that the conservative establishment in Washington turns a blind eye to what happens in the Islamic world if it suits their agenda.

      • alloytoo

         /  January 16, 2018

        Patz: “We would probably still practice things like slavery and apartheid without the angry left (or progressives). What incentive would there have been for the conservative right to stop these practices, there was money to be made.”

        Henry Ford cut hours and raised wages because there was money to be made (and a market to be made too)

        In recent decades the world has been changed dramatically by entrepreneurs, entire global industries which didn’t exist before the 90’s, this has been done by doers, not whiners.

        It’s also worth noting that many historical injustices were perpetuated by people who also practiced paternal socialist policies in respect of their “chosen” group

        • PDB

           /  January 16, 2018

          Indeed – if someone wanted to take such a ‘one-sided’ approach to the debate as Patz (in basically saying one political belief is ‘bad’ and one ‘good’) then you could say that any social changes could only have come about under the huge, and relatively quick improvements of living standards across the world created by the right.

        • Patzcuaro

           /  January 16, 2018

          Did Henry Ford practice either slavery or apartheid, No. You could say he was a progressive businessman who saw the opportunity to improve his business by adopting new progressive practices. I don’t think that Ford is an argument for conservatism over progressivism. He saw that incentivising his workforce would improves his profits by encouraging them to buy into his dream and it would also allow them to be able to afford to buy his product, cars only in black though. So conservative or progressive?

          The same argument can be made about the leaders in the tech world they don’t accept the status quo they are looking for progress.

          Then you bring up Lenin, Stalin etc, paternal immediately brings to mind conservative not progressive. Paternalism has been at the heart of conservative over the centuries, transfer to the oldest son down the line, nothing progressive about that. Lenin Stalin etc were a reaction to the extreme conservativism that existed in Russia at the time but in reality ended up replacing it with a different form of conservatism, conservative socialism.

          Nothing you have written encourages me to believe that conservatism is better to progressivism, which is not to say one should run when walking would be better.

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 16, 2018

            There is a long and honourable ‘progressive’ worker and union struggle for the eight-hour working day, perhaps most of all in the USA because of the May 1 1886 ‘Knights of Labour’ march down Michigan Ave in Chicago, and the subsequent arrest, trial, conviction and execution of labour leaders, “victims of “hysteria, packed juries and a biased judge””. [words of 1893 pardon by Governor] …

            “During the 1870s, eight hours became a central demand, especially among labour organisers, with a network of Eight-Hour Leagues which held rallies and parades.

            The United Mine Workers won an eight-hour day in 1898.

            The Building Trades Council (BTC) of San Francisco, under the leadership of P. H. McCarthy, won the eight-hour day in 1900 … ”

            All quotes from – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States

            This is equally a deplorable tale of despicable conservatives willing to sanction and employ State violence, some of it lethal, against their own citizens …

            To give Henry Ford credit for the eight-hour-day in America is living proof of both the values and practices of conservatism …

            … and they did it again just the other day assigning all the credit and glory for long-overdue pay rises and pittance bonuses at Walmart to the conservative ruling elite and giant corporate business owners …

          • alloytoo

             /  January 16, 2018

            Hold on you can’t argue that “Making Money” maintains evil status quo, and yet claim than industrious entrepreneurs (making oodles more money) are progressive. These guys are after all the evil capitalists paying the bills.

            Unless you want to argue that “evil capitalists” are in fact the true driver’s of progression, driving improvements in health care, nutrition, education, transport and communications which lead to improved quality of life for everyone.

            “cars only in black though. So conservative or progressive?”

            Actually not originally available in black rather gray, green, blue, and red.

            The fact of the matter is that the left’s increasing strident calls for equality of outcomes aren’t very progressive at all, as with their socialist forbears Lenin, Hitler, Mugabe, Castro, Zuma etc they’re all about limiting or removing rights.

            Most modern OECD countries have checks and balances which allow the evil capitalists to pay for social welfare nets.

            Evil capitalists do so because social welfare nets retain the fabric of society

            Which brings me back to my original point.

            The left in these countries are angry, mostly because they’re enjoying living standards that their parents and grandparents couldn’t have dreamed of and they don’t understand why.

            • Blazer

               /  January 16, 2018

              ‘ allow the evil capitalists to pay for social welfare nets.’…perhaps you can explain how they do this.Sounds like you’re telling..fairy tales.

            • alloytoo

               /  January 16, 2018

              “‘ allow the evil capitalists to pay for social welfare nets.’…perhaps you can explain how they do this.Sounds like you’re telling..fairy tales.”

              I believe it’s called taxation.

            • Blazer

               /  January 16, 2018

              as you well know…the wealthy do not pay income tax.What do you think tax havens are…for.The workers pay tax.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 16, 2018

              @Alloytoo – “Evil capitalists do so because social welfare nets retain the fabric of society” from which they make their excess profits … regardless of whether they pay tax or not …

              My parents and grandparents most certainly dreamed of the living standards I enjoy, and they worked very hard to bring them to fruition, and fought for them in industrial disputes and imperial wars over resources and markets they didn’t really understand … Tens of thousands of their generation died for this dream …

              They did it all with a degree of ‘community’ social awareness and responsibility I believe you are incapable of feeling or comprehending …

              Your comment – the length of which PDB will never pass judgement on – is therefore thrice insulting. You insult my personal/family history as a New Zealander, you insult New Zealand’s history, and you insult my intelligence …

              What you say doesn’t “bring you back to” your original point at all. It conveniently brings you around to the insult you wanted to spit out in the first place.

            • alloytoo

               /  January 16, 2018

              @blazer

              Of course the wealthy pay tax, by simple virtue of the fact that they have the money that progressive tax systems redistribute. It’s not fair, taxation rarely is.

            • alloytoo

               /  January 16, 2018

              @PZ “regardless of whether they pay tax or not …”

              Of course they pay tax. Rule #1 of taxation: Tax those with money,

              “My parents and grandparents most certainly dreamed of the living standards I enjoy, and they worked very hard to bring them to fruition,”
              and fought for them in industrial disputes and imperial wars over resources and markets they didn’t really understand”

              They may have dreamed that living standards would improve, and worked to that end, as did most of our parents and grandparents. They most certainly didn’t envisage the world we live in today (otherwise you would be super rich yourself)

              ” … Tens of thousands of their generation died for this dream …
              They did it all with a degree of ‘community’ social awareness and responsibility I believe you are incapable of feeling or comprehending …”

              Get over yourself, your forebears don’t hold a monopoly on being sold a pup by Queen/King and Empire, nor on noble aspirations. but hey don’t let that get in the way of a good personal insult.

              “Your comment – the length of which PDB will never pass judgement on – is therefore thrice insulting. You insult my personal/family history as a New Zealander, you insult New Zealand’s history, and you insult my intelligence …”

              You taking umbrage on behalf of an entire nation is insulting to 99.99% of the country, but that’s OK because you’re imagining insult to justify your anger.

              “What you say doesn’t “bring you back to” your original point at all. It conveniently brings you around to the insult you wanted to spit out in the first place.”

              It’s a conclusion, not an insult, challenge the conclusion if you want.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 17, 2018

              I notice you haven’t addressed the “social fabric” issue. Let’s leave out ‘evil’, which even I don’t believe. Follow the logic & ethics of money and you arrive at the same result. Some people are simply more ‘snared’ by it than others. The issue is –

              “Capitalists pay for social welfare nets because social welfare nets retain the fabric of society” from which they make their excess profits …”

              They are, in fact, paying to maintain the viability of the very consumers upon whose ‘needs & manufactured wants’ their excess profitability rests … along with their capacity to withhold profits from workers in the form of low wages …

            • alloytoo

               /  January 17, 2018

              @PZ “I notice you haven’t addressed the “social fabric” issue. Let’s leave out ‘evil’, which even I don’t believe.”

              That’s a relief.

              ” Follow the logic & ethics of money and you arrive at the same result. Some people are simply more ‘snared’ by it than others. The issue is –

              “Capitalists pay for social welfare nets because social welfare nets retain the fabric of society””

              Is this an issue? I know a number of wealthy men, they work extraordinary long hours, risk their capital, pay highly redistributive taxes and still contribute time and money to charitable causes.


              ” from which they make their excess profits …”

              These are not my words, please stop appending them as if they were.

              Firstly “Excess profit” is a subjective, it’s a phrase designed to sound emotive, and ignore the risks taken and commiserate reward, as well as the reward for innovation.

              In this usage it appears to mean what’s left over after paying salaries.


              They are, in fact, paying to maintain the viability of the very consumers upon whose ‘needs & manufactured wants’ their excess profitability rests … along with their capacity to withhold profits from workers in the form of low wages …”

              There are an awful lot of assertions here which are simply designed to be emotive.

              The assumption that all entrepreneurs are exclusively exploitive is as insulting as assuming that all welfare beneficiaries are exclusively exploitive.

          • David

             /  January 16, 2018

            ” He saw that incentivising his workforce would improves his profits by encouraging them to buy into his dream and it would also allow them to be able to afford to buy his product, cars only in black though. So conservative or progressive?”

            He did no such thing. He increase wages because workers were simply walking off the lines for better jobs elsewhere and it wreaked his production model. He turned over hundreds of thousands of workers in a single year when he only had 50,000 employees at any single time.

            HIgher wages had nothing to do with them being able to buy cars, and everything to do with Ford responding to the market.

            • alloytoo

               /  January 16, 2018

              OMG market forces yield positive results…….News at 11.

            • Blazer

               /  January 16, 2018

              market forces’…1929 depression,1987 s/mkt crash,1997 Asian crisis,2008 GFC.

            • David

               /  January 16, 2018

              Blazer, why only limit it to those, what about the hundreds of others? How about you then list the billions of people who live comfortable, modern lives because of our ability to exchange goods and knowledge?

            • Blazer

               /  January 16, 2018

              ‘ our ability to exchange goods and knowledge?’this is hardly down to ..Capitalism.

            • David

               /  January 16, 2018

              “‘ our ability to exchange goods and knowledge?’this is hardly down to ..Capitalism.”

              Show me the system that does this better.

            • alloytoo

               /  January 17, 2018

              @Blazer

              “market forces’…1929 depression,1987 s/mkt crash,1997 Asian crisis,2008 GFC.”

              Risk is rewarded and also punished.

              Yet market driven economies recover a lot quicker experience greater overall growth than command economies.

            • Blazer

               /  January 17, 2018

              @Allytoo…lets see you explain the..differences.

      • David

         /  January 16, 2018

        “We would probably still practice things like slavery and apartheid without the angry left (or progressives)”

        The Democrats were the party of slavery in the US. Apartheid is now a progressive policy, witness the BLM movement.

        • They’re in denial. Also the KKK were Democrats

          • Blazer

             /  January 16, 2018

            you need to back up these outrageous statements..can you?

            • High Flying Duck

               /  January 16, 2018

              “”Founded in 1866, the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) extended into almost every southern state by 1870 and became a vehicle for white southern resistance to the Republican Party’s Reconstruction-era policies aimed at establishing political and economic equality for blacks. Its members waged an underground campaign of intimidation and violence directed at white and black Republican leaders. Though Congress passed legislation designed to curb Klan terrorism, the organization saw its primary goal–the reestablishment of white supremacy–fulfilled through Democratic victories in state legislatures across the South in the 1870s.

              http://www.history.com/topics/ku-klux-klan

            • Blazer

               /  January 16, 2018

              bit more recent…’] Asa Carter, founder of a local Ku Klux Klan organization, was hired as a speechwriter for Wallace’s campaign. Carter became a key member of Wallace’s staff, resulting in “a new, fiery, hard-hitting style of campaigning”.[3] Due to his connection to acts of racial violence, Carter was kept in the background during the campaign; however his speeches proved to be popular among Wallace supporters.[6] Wallace’s racial politicking and support of segregation resonated with Alabama voters and in 1962 he was elected governor, receiving more votes than any previous Alabama gubernatorial candidate.’
              ‘ in the fall of 1963 he capitalized on his prominence by announcing his candidacy for U.S. President.’
              ‘Former Governor of Alabama George Wallace ran in the 1968 United States presidential election as the candidate for the American Independent Party. Wallace’s pro-segregation policies during his term as Governor of Alabama were rejected by the mainstream of the Democratic Party.’………Wiki.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  January 16, 2018

              It has a complicated history, and is on the whole non-political and more simply racist. But Traveller was right – Dems were the founders of the KKK. Not an outrageous statement at all. More simple fact.

            • Blazer

               /  January 16, 2018

              your link does not at all confirm that ‘dems were the founders of the KKK’…LONG…BOW.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  January 16, 2018

              Well if not by the Democrats, certainly solely for the benefit of the Democrats…

              “The Klan’s goals included the political defeat of the Republican Party and the maintenance of absolute white supremacy in response to newly gained civil and political rights by southern blacks after the Civil War (1861-65). ”

              “In Georgia conservative whites, frustrated with their political failures during 1867, began to look for new ways to defeat their Republican enemies and control the recently enfranchised freedpeople. For many, the KKK and its public political wing, the Young Men’s Democratic Clubs, offered a chance to take action.”

              “Most Klan action was designed to intimidate black voters and white supporters of the Republican Party. Klansmen might parade on horseback at night dressed in outlandish costumes, or they might threaten specific Republican leaders with violence. Increasingly during 1868 these actions became violent, ranging from whippings of black women perceived as insolent to the assassination of Republican leaders. It is impossible to untangle local vigilante violence from political terrorism by the organized Klan, but it is clear that attacks on blacks became common during 1868.”

              “After the Klan-supported Democratic triumph in the state elections of 1870, the formal Klan organization began to fade away with aggressive federal intervention in 1871 and 1872.”

              http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/ku-klux-klan-reconstruction-era

        • alloytoo

           /  January 16, 2018

          There are I believe more racist statutes in South Africa now than before 1994.

        • Patzcuaro

           /  January 16, 2018

          I think it is a little simplistic to just say the Democrats were the party of slavery or started the KKK. After the Civil War Republicans were thin on the ground in the South. What you had were conservative Democrats who have now become Republicans once Southerners got over to a degree the Civil War. Essential post the Civil war in the South Democrats were the conservative establishment. There were not progressives at all more like reactionaries.

    • Pickled Possum

       /  January 16, 2018

      I must say You!!!!! sound angry about some lefties and a pig.

      It’s every ones right to fight the good fight how they perceive it,
      if it doesn’t match your ideology, tuff bickies bro.
      Suck it up and go back to work. 😎

      No offence intended just having a joke and a laff.
      you offer up such good material for this.

  3. Pickled Possum

     /  January 16, 2018

    What a good post pete!!!!!
    Oppps Terry Pratchett said 5 exclamation marks is the sign of insanity.

    Only thing I gotta say to Mr Bradbury is;
    “Come on over to the sunny side of social media and chill bro,
    It’s really not that ugly or angry but it can be if you spend
    every waking moment making it so.”

    Anger and ugly are apart of life I learnt this as a youngster
    when my mother told us a joke!!!!!

    “There was this man once who had a wooden eye. He was really self conscious about it and never went out. One day, he saw an ad for a social evening for people with facial differences, and thought it was worth a go. On arriving, he started talking to a woman with a vertical mouth. He thought it was going really well, so he decided to try his luck. “I don’t suppose you would care to dance with me?” he asked. She fluttered her eyelashes and said “Wouldn’t I? to which he replied “Don’t call me wooden eye, cunt face!”

    We laughed and laffed our arses off. We didn’t get the ugly or the anger we just get the humorous side.
    I suppose some might take a fence a post and a gate to a certain word
    butt without it the joke falls flat dontcha think.
    Won’t be long a that particular word will go in the “body Shaming” pile.

    • Corky

       /  January 16, 2018

      Hey, Cuz. You fulla’s up Norf tell mean-as jokes, eh!

      • Pickled Possum

         /  January 16, 2018

        I am not your cuz and that joke was told to me just over the hill from you!!!!!

        • Pickled Possum

           /  January 16, 2018

          Opps Sorri if I come across ugly and angry but you do bring out the best in me

          • Pickled Possum

             /  January 16, 2018

            Is Norf short for Norfolk pine?

          • Corky

             /  January 16, 2018

            Sorry, PP. I wasn’t trolling you as Gezza suggests. I was just trying to get into your usual ‘ cool Maori speak groove.’ Obviously urban living has dulled my ethnic entitlements.

        • Gezza

           /  January 16, 2018

          He’s just trolling you, mate, as usual. Ignore the prat.

          • Pickled Possum

             /  January 16, 2018

            Morning Gezza bro What does he mean “cool Maori speak groove?”
            Jez I didn’t know I speak like this.
            I didn’t go to college to learn it so must have been born with it.
            or attained it after a serious accident.
            Gez WHY do you think Corky is so mean to me
            he most times sounds really ugly and angry when he speaks to me.
            Do you think he has such a shit life, living in a shite village
            it just makes him all the more angry and ugly.

            • Blazer

               /  January 16, 2018

              just remember…’it is better to be beautiful than to be ..good…but it is better to be good than to be..ugly’O.Wilde.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 16, 2018

              Possum always knows what she means and makes sense to those who are important to her …

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 16, 2018

              What a distortion of Oscar Wilde’s actual words-apart from anything else, he was never known to use pointless ellipses.He had too much love of language for that sort of thing.

              ‘I admit that it is better to be beautiful than to be good. But, on the other hand, no one more ready than I to admit that it is better to be good than to be ugly.’

              The Picture of Dorian Gray. Chapter 17, if anyone wants to look it up.

            • Blazer

               /  January 16, 2018

              @the nitpicker…pretty close .I rely on memory ,so you rely on Google.I can see your report card….’tries…really…hard’!

          • Corky

             /  January 16, 2018

            ”PartisanZ / January 16, 2018

            Possum always knows what she means and makes sense to those who are important to her …”

            True, I don’t know here dialect. And I certainly don’t want to be important to her. But always thought laff was luff. You know: boys and girls?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 16, 2018

              Actually, no, Blazer, I know Oscar Wilde’s works well and knew where this quote was from-also that you had it wrong. I would suggest that you do NOT rely on memory in these cases-it lets you down badly. Anyone who was familiar with the works of Oscar Wilde would have known that this was a misquote, I think that it was Lord Henry Wotton who said it-it sounds like him.

              Google is not the place to look for quotes. If someone repeats one which sounds not even remotely like anything that the supposed person would have said, the odds are that they have found it on Google. I prefer a well-documented book of quotations.

  4. PartisanZ

     /  January 16, 2018

    “Anger can be an essential safety valve, but ongoing ugliness is counter productive to making social and political progress.”

    So, by Rightie-Pythonesque logic, if you don’t want to make “ongoing social and political progress”, you’re a conservative or ultra-conservative and you want to keep things just as they are or, in other words, you are an Alt-Right ‘popustremist’* … ongoing ugliness is …………?

    ………… “A WITCH”!!!!!

    No ….. Advantageous …

    Anger is an essential component of passion … and not the only one …

    • PartisanZ

       /  January 16, 2018

      *popustremist = populist + extremist – new word # 130

  5. I’m only going to comment on the Tomatoes and Chickpeas incident as I watched the hysterical mania on Sicilal Media and because I work voluntarily for an organisation that provides cooked and snap frozen meals for another group of very vulnerable NZers.

    Dear NZ,

    The head Aunty is a morbidly obese woman Jackie Clarke. Her father was the owner of Crown Lynn Potteries. She had a “give a little page” that, at the same time she was admonishing the tinned tomato, in which there was over $100,000 donated to her “charity”. The charity apparently provides food to designated women’s refuges. They buy and distribute food as well as accept donations.

    My beef with this affair is this: the lax and laissez-faire attitude of the Aunties towards donors, funds received and what I consider to be a criminal misuse of resources and the manner in which they choose to “feed” these vulnerable people. Like most in the middle classes I look at the food triangle when I consider healthy eating. Like most I regard a tinned tomato as central to ones pantry. I’m not surprised that a caring person figures that a vitamin c packed vegetable/fruit ( arguable) is central to any meal that could be considered healthy. Wrong according to Aunty Jackie! They want chocolate, chocolate biccies, two minute noodles, tinned spaghetti, spam, tinned corned beef and chippies. The minute the dreaded tinned corned beef was mentioned the SJW liberals saw marginalised Pasifika and went to bat for Aunty. I couldn’t believe it. Who in their right minds thinks that throwing junk food, sugar and refined carbs and nitrates helpful to a diet? Everyone on the left and in the media apparently and we’re brainwashed or silenced to believe that a profile of only women craving chocolate and tinned spaghetti for their traumatised families have violence perpetrated against them. Yes folkd, all they want is “comfort food”. WTF has happened to NZ?

    Every week the organisation I work for makes hundreds of meals out in the community. They have a recipe base of healthy meals which are prepared ( more often than not employing tinned tomatoes and lentils), which are then dropped at a centralised location taken to the community as needed. They are easy to reheat, nutritious and delicious. Vulnerable people need meals that help their brains and bodies. While a chocolate bar or a packet of chips or noodles do fill a gap, put a smile on a face they don’t feed a mind or body. Why aren’t the virtue signalling Aunties and their SJW base doing healthy meal prep instead? By saying this group all want chocolate bars and nitrate sodden corned beef I’m seeing far more racism and stereotyping in that profiling than I can in the detractors.

    I am of the opinion that NZers have become morally compromised when they think donating money to to a morbidly obese woman ( they won’t mention that!) whose own food/body issues and bigoted attitudes towards the vulnerable is sanity and that voices calling for their accountability fiscally and food value wise are the wretched ones.

    Yes, I’m an old curmudgeon, but I think I’m on the right side of this argument and it makes me caring not nasty

    • PDB

       /  January 16, 2018

      The left in this country;

      *Want to implement a sugar tax because sugar is bad and killing poor people.
      *Want to give people relying on food donations predominantly food full of sugar & preservatives.

    • Blazer

       /  January 16, 2018

      the morbidly obese part was not required.Is Brownlee,Bennett morbidly obese?Tolley had lap belt surgery .

      • PDB

         /  January 16, 2018

        I actually agree with you – seemed unnecessary & detracted from the message.

        • I’m saying the truth is all. I’m not judging her as a person, just stating a fact that as a public figure soliciting the limelight, money nad food she shouldn’t be advising anyone about food, let alone be in charge of anyone’s dietary needs.

          • PDB

             /  January 16, 2018

            A picture says a thousand words.

            • I concern myself deeply that we live in a world where peoplehave adapted a learned behaviour of not saying something for fear of offending people.

              The very worst example of this I can think of recently, is the infamous Rotherham Muslim grooming gangs.

              “A story of rampant child abuse—ignored and abetted by the police—is emerging out of the British town of Rotherham. Until now, its scale and scope would have been inconceivable in a civilized country. Its origins, however, lie in something quite ordinary: what one Labour MP called “not wanting to rock the multicultural community boat.”

              https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/silencing-debate-on-grooming-gangs-is-a-foul-snub-to-victims/

              http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11391314/Rotherham-child-sex-abuse-scandal-council-not-fit-for-purpose.html

              https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did-british-police-ignore-pakistani-gangs-raping-rotherham-children-political-correctness/&refURL=&referrer=

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 16, 2018

              The saying is ‘A picture is WORTH a thousand words,’ not that it says it-which is meaningless.

              I agree, Traveller, and one of the other ‘aunties’ was obese, also.

              Tinned tomatoes and chickpeas are hardly chef-level. How anyone can’t put the two together and make a meal that is far more nutritious than tinned spaghetti that is nice but hardly filling is beyond me. Yes, one has to open two tins, not one, but that is hardly strenuous. Tinned tomatoes are always in my pantry-cheaper than fresh, always there, always good for something. Tinned corned beef-spare me, fat and sodium, heart attack in a tin.

              I would think that tinned tomatoes were the obvious thing to donate. They are one of the world’s great standby foods.

              The obese aunties came across as ingrates, arrogant and stupid. People don’t know how to cook TINNED TOMATOES ???? I am the world’s laziest cook-I hate cooking-which is why I like these so much. Open a tin-open a tin of beans (not ‘baked beans’), mix them, heat them and put them on pasta. Those Chinese noodles like thin spaghetti-I forget the name-don’t even need to be ‘cooked’. Put them in a bowl-pour boiling water over them-swish them around once or twice-when they are soft, drain them.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 16, 2018

              @PDB – “A picture says a thousand words.”

              Sucker! I do believe Joseph Goebbels believed the same … ?

              “Look beneath the surface; let not the several quality of a thing nor its worth escape thee.” – Marcus Aurelius

              “We have the tendency to judge others by their surface appearance, and to find only their negative qualities. But if we search beneath the surface we discover that a myriad of strains mix together to create a particular person’s nature. The faults we perceive are likely to be the effect of circumstances, the psychological response to trauma, abuse, rejection, heartbreak, insecurity, pain, confusion, or disease.” – Radhanath Swami

            • PDB

               /  January 16, 2018

              From someone who uses thousands of words to say……….nothing.

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 16, 2018

            @traveller – “she shouldn’t be advising anyone about food, let alone be in charge of anyone’s dietary needs.”

            As per yesterday, there goes anyone’s right to comment, let alone do anything in the world about absolutely anything …

            Here’s Jackie Clarke, from a lengthy comment on Aunties website:

            “We can also shift the paradigm by thinking about what charity actually means. I don’t like the word “charity” – it doesn’t describe what the Aunties do, and it’s demeaning to the people we support, and resource. We don’t dispense charity – we are a whānau, a community, supporting and resourcing other members of our whānau.” Tau toko that Jackie!

            The whole thing is REALLY REALLY worth a read – https://www.aunties.co.nz/

            Possibly also … just speculating … maybe the very last thing a vulnerable South Auckland woman [and her children] seeking refuge from male violence needs is a lecture on how bad their diet is – hence poor parenting – or an East Coast Bays dose of middle-class body shaming …?

            You are, after all, very very much “on the Right [wrong] side of this argument and it makes you … ?

            • I’ve seen and heard as much as I want to hea. Until I see they’re preparing nutritious frozen meals and installing freezers in the refuges I’m not interested. The way they do everything is unsustainable, bad for the environment ad absolutely devastating for the health of those they purport to help.

              Shift the paradigm? Sure. Theirs.

          • phantom snowflake

             /  January 16, 2018

            An imperfect person who is doing a fantastic job; but lets just mow down the tall poppy shall we?

            http://www.aunties.co.nz/what-aunty-jackie-does/

      • What about, whatabout…..

        She IS morbidly obese and you don’t need to be a doctor to see that. Let’s say it, she has food/health issues, yet she’s advocating on food value and suitability for the vulnerable. Don’t you see something hinky there? No! Telling us to donate chocolate, nitrate drenched corned beef and two minute noodles, are you serious! None of that is food.

        • Blazer

           /  January 16, 2018

          ‘I concern myself deeply that we live in a world where peoplehave adapted a learned behaviour of not saying something for fear of offending people’….Do not forget you said…this.

          • No, I won’t. Glad you’re there Mr Elephant Memory to be my moral arbiter.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 16, 2018

              They DIDN”T ask for CHOCOLATE…did they ? Oh, please, surely not. But anyone stupid enough to think that tinned corned beef (ughhhhhh) is a good meal would be silly enough to ask for chocolate biscuits.

              I have heard that even the noodles in 2 minute noodles have sodium. Damn, I was using them as pasta and throwing out the sachet until I heard that-they were so useful, they too can be covered with boiling water and cook themselves.

              Tinned baked beans are probably high on sodium, but, unlike tinned spaghetti, they do have nutritional value in the beans. Tinned spaghetti is flour and sauce, nice as it is, Hardly something to nourish growing bodies.

              I find that it’s not worth DIY with red beans and chick peas, but is with lentils-no soaking needed, cook quite fast, one packet makes a lot of cooked lentils and they are great with pasta sauce-who needs to eat dead animals for food ?

              The obesity IS relevant here. Unless these two women had medical issues like thyroid problems, they are poor advocates for what to feed people on.They are also grossly irresponsible-and, as someone said, racist. I wouldn’t eat those things and wouldn’t assume that others do.

              I don’t grudge people a few treats like choccies etc, but these are not what I’d fill someone’s pantry with, no matter who the person was. Yes, put something in as a nice surprise.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 16, 2018

              Read it and try to feel something Miss Kitty – https://www.aunties.co.nz/

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 17, 2018

              I won’t bother. If they want to give people things like tinned corned beef and tinned spaghetti, they are doing those people a huge disservice and potentially causing all sorts of health problems. The dangers of too much sodium and fat are too well known for anyone to not know. Feeding someone on tinned spaghetti won’t give them enough calories for energy but will give them a dangerous amount of sodium.

              How on earth do these women justify their stupidity ? As I said, a bit of chocolate for a treat and a nice surprise is all right-but giving someone a packet of biscuits instead of a meal is plain stupid.

              How on earth can anyone think otherwise ?

    • PartisanZ

       /  January 16, 2018

      @traveller – “Yes folks, all they want is “comfort food”. WTF has happened to NZ?”

      Oh please! Rogerednomics …. followed by Ruthanasia … followed by ‘managers of the FIIRE economy on behalf’ … Neoliberalism … That’s what happened …

      Repugnant to you though Aunties may be – and I fully acknowledge the work you do personally – this is the Charitocracy that you Righties set in motion – with your *fiscal responsibility* and *welfare austerity* – functioning exactly as it was intended to.

      A corporate sponsored, hence corporate influenced, ‘free-market’ popularity contest & beauty pageant of ‘worthy causes’ … and who gets the *JACKPOT* pseudo-lottery!!!!!?

      Nowadays you donate to these various Give-a-LITTLE amount Trustocracy ‘organs’ with one hand – they have replaced State give-a-MORALLY-IMPELLED amount ‘departments’ – and complain about them with the other …

      • Trevors_Elbow

         /  January 16, 2018

        Hahahahahaha…. this priceless

        • PartisanZ

           /  January 17, 2018

          Is that really all you’ve got Trevors_Elbow … ?

          If up & down ticks are anything to go by people seem to be 2-to-1 in favour …

          • Blazer

             /  January 17, 2018

            trevor is a lightweight troll who never has an original thought…as far as I’m aware.

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  January 17, 2018

      Traveller, I was in the supermarket today and bought some tinned tomatoes (as usual) I had a look at tinned spaghetti..It has very few calories, so little nourishment, and is laden with sodium. 200g has roughly half the daily maximum. Feeding a child this for a meal means that the child is undernourished and having a dangerous amount of sodium. I knew that it was bad, but not THAT bad !

  6. Social media.

    • Gezza

       /  January 16, 2018

      Don’t worry about it trav. Silical Media is one of Apple’s best yet! 😀 👍🏼

      • Gezza

         /  January 16, 2018

        😬 Oops – sorry. Sicilal ! 😕 (I blame my FiP)

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  January 16, 2018

          What do you have against Silical Media ? Social snob.

          Blame the FiP, why don’t you ?

        • You demean the hundreds of thousands beavering away at the coal face of society. Goodness knows in the main their efficiency is superior to that of any central government. Charities were around long before governments manned by career statists who not only steal mandatorily over a third (and with extras over a half) of our income to “redress” an imbalance and also reward their voter base . I’d have a community charity over any one of Jacinda’s hapless team looking out for me thanks.

          • Gezza

             /  January 16, 2018

            You demean the hundreds of thousands beavering away at the coal face of society.

            Shit – do I?

          • Blazer

             /  January 16, 2018

            Religious charities have indeed been around a long time.A handy release valve for the guilty to absolve…their sins.I do wonder about this intense hatred you have for Ms Adern.At least mine regarding the Key Govt took years to…develop.

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 16, 2018

            Assuming the ‘community charity’ could make your “cause” look suitably ‘worthy’ enough to both private donors and, of course, the same central government you berate, which they are constantly seeking public funding from …

            Many Trustocracy-Charitocracy organs are not really ‘community’ charities either, they are Corporate Charitable Trusts, usually with carefully chosen elite-class Board members and charity-professional CEOs and managers … and often have such strong ‘sponsorship links’ they effectively become corporate PR & marketing organs …

            You WANT a world of ‘wealth patronage’ and ‘poverty gratitude’ … ?

            Kneel …

            • Naturally she has the best intentions and I am sure that the presents and chocolates and Xmas provisions were a Godsend and well received.

              Preparing meals out of healthy ingredients and having the women just having to reheat would tick a lot of boxes. Comfort food is not a staple.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 16, 2018

              Women’s Refuge is short-stay (to my knowledge) so I suspect it’s often a case of “feel at home as much as possible” traveller, and in those cases I dare say comfort food, while not a staple, is definitely a comfort …

              Clarke: “There’s no middle person, it’s just them making their own decisions.

              Because we’re not in communist Russia. When you go to the supermarket you take what you need, don’t you? And there’s a whole range of choices.

              Well, the way I work things is that the stuff is there, all sorts of stuff, and you do the same thing. Except it’s free. A number of charities have started doing this with food – they call it the food pantry approach.”

              Certainly if the refugees get advice on food and diet all the better, but its understandably not the highest priority under the circumstances …

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 17, 2018

              Giving nothing but someone’s idea of comfort food that has bugger all nourishment and dangerous levels of addiitves is doing people a huge disservice.

              Charity is a good thing, but if someone has no idea what they are doing then it can be dangerous. We all know the old saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 17, 2018

              @ Miss Kitty – “Charity is a good thing …”

              Really? Is that why many people – and I have to say they’re mostly Righties – constantly say its bad to treat Maori and poor people and the low-paid and unemployed and beneficiaries and homeless people etc etc as “charity cases”?

              What would be a good thing would be if the world’s abundance was shared [just] enough so that the word “charity” could be removed from our vocabulary.

  7. Zedd

     /  January 16, 2018

    to the question above.. “Always.. ugly&angry !” ho ho ho 😀

  8. robertguyton

     /  January 16, 2018

    “Just about any time I comment at The Standard people (a small number) pile in claiming offence, deliberately misrepresenting and making false accusations.”
    Oh, Pete, they do not!

  9. robertguyton

     /  January 16, 2018

    A skerrick of evidence would give your claims credence.
    Interesting, in any case, that you both read The Standard often enough to observe Pete’s progress there. In any case*2, anyone claiming that Pete’s comments cause offence, deliberately misrepresent and include false accusations, aren’t necessarily false, are they?

    • He’s called bland and beige by the far left for
      a reason. He’s unfailingly reasonable, which contrast with the mostly savage and confrontational nature of both TS and TDB

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  January 17, 2018

        Don’t tell me that they can never get a rise out of him-poor things, how annoying for them 😀

        Better beige (cool and elegant) than the shade of purple that denotes an impending heart attack from rage.

  10. ByterNZ

     /  January 16, 2018

    Culture is not Race. Language is Culture. Calling a menu that makes fun of language “racist” is incorrect, and simply degrades the importance of actions that are *actually* racist.

  11. robertguyton

     /  January 16, 2018

    TS, “savage”
    Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
    I like it.

  12. robertguyton

     /  January 16, 2018

    So, no evidence???