Open Forum – Thursday

18 January 2018

Forum

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64 Comments

  1. Corky

     /  January 18, 2018

    We hear much from liberal commentators about the evils of gun ownership. Yet three crimes shown in this clip, if they were to happen in New Zealand, potentially could see victims seriously beaten or dead.

    In my honest opinion guns for self defence should be a constitutional right. Dairy owners should have access to firearms right now- after attending a certified firearm course.

    • Griff

       /  January 18, 2018

      New Zealand
      Deaths from guns per per hundred thousand 1.07,
      30 guns per hundred thousand ,

      United States
      Deaths from guns per per hundred thousand 10.54
      101.05 Guns per hundred thousand.

      You want to import USA style stand your ground and constitutional protection of the right to bear arms?
      The result will be USA style gun culture and many more needless deaths.

      If you want the local yokels to be walking around with pistols and ar16′ clones I suggest you move some were its legal .Your chance of death by firearm is about ten times greater.

      A well armed militia?
      Ever seen what modern weapons do to militias armed with AK 47’s?

      • Corky

         /  January 18, 2018

        Not only have you missed the point, you have made projections based on no previous experience for Zealand with the right to bear arms.

        ”You want to import USA style stand your ground and constitutional protection of the right to bear arms?”

        Import,no. Tailor made legislation for New Zealand, yes.

        ”The result will be USA style gun culture and many more needless deaths.”

        You have no proof of that happening here in New Zealand. Needless deaths? We have many of those now because people have no means to defend themselves.

        ”If you want the local yokels to be walking around with pistols and ar16′ clones I suggest you move some were its legal .”

        That wouldn’t happen under our constitution. But Let’s change a constitutional right for a legal right to bear arms for self defence. That would sort many yokels and the unfit from owning weapons. Don’t forget we are a country of only 5 million. That would make things much easier to police ( if governments wanted to?)

        There are many ideas that could be canvassed on this issue. Maybe making only handguns legal for self protection would be a start?

        Ones things for sure, we need to get past the prattish knee-jerk reactions as shown in Gezza’s comments below

        • Gezza

           /  January 18, 2018

          God what a prat you are sometimes Corky. Honestly mate you could give lessons in prattishness, never mind accusing others of it. Brevity doesn’t equal knee jerk.

          Where do you think people are going to apply for the right to bear (carry) sidearms? High crime areas? Low crime areas? Everywhere – even though the chances of their getting shot, stabbed, murdered, beaten up are probably far, far lower than in cities like the USA?

          What are they going to do in your Rambo/Clint Eastwood scenario world? Apply to the Police under legislation specifically passed by Parliament to allow people to carry firearms for self-defence? And then walk away free if they shoot someone in the street for yellng abuse at them or being threatening? And then what – band together as armed groups of vigilantes maybe?

          ”The result will be USA style gun culture and many more needless deaths.”

          You have no proof of that happening here in New Zealand. Needless deaths? We have many of those now because people have no means to defend themselves.

          What about some years & numbers to back that up.

          The reason we don’t have high rates of deaths by shooting here is because prats aren’t allowed to legally get their hands on handguns and carry them in public. There’s the proof of that.

          No politician in their right mind here is going to vote for such a proposed law change over the opposition of police & the law society & other political parties because the numbers of deaths & violent crimes simply don’t justify the risks of adverse consequences ie there are too many prats who could get their hands on guns & then do something stupid & unnecessary.

          Before any legislation giving a right for citizens to bear arms for self-defence would ever be considered here politicians would be pressured to do more to tackle the drivers of violent crime & to increase police numbers & to change policing strategies.

          I certainly agree that you shouldn’t face prosecution for defending yourself in your own home or business, but the right to carry arms generally? No need. Few kiwis are or have any need to be as paranoid as you.

    • Gezza

       /  January 18, 2018

      We’d be better off doing more to address the drivers of crime than encouraging more people with a Rambo complex to arm up.

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  January 18, 2018

        Cork’s theory would work if only non-criminals were able to have guns.

        • Corky

           /  January 18, 2018

          Yep, And what chance have criminals, low- lifes and people from South Auckland got of gaining a gun licences for self defence under my system? No chance.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 18, 2018

            Oh, spare me. Ask yourself how criminals in all countries have guns.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 18, 2018

            Making something illegal won’t make it not happen, silly. You must have led a very sheltered life.

            • Corky

               /  January 18, 2018

              Honestly, I don’t know what you are talking about. But tell that to the dairy owner marked for death this year. It’s almost a given.

              Doesn’t the usual apologies,sympathy and police hand-wringing after someone is killed make you feel ill?

              Especially when the victim may have had a fighting chance.if he had a gun.

              Now who has lead a sheltered life?

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 18, 2018

              Not me. I am not stupid enough to think that criminals don’t have guns already and are likely to shoot first-adrenalin and drugs make them much less inhibited about shooting you before you have a chance to get the gun and shoot them. In the US, many people are shot by burglars-and many are shot with their own guns when the burglar reaches the gun first. We have nothing like their level of gun crime, but only a fool would think that the criminal won’t be more likely to fire the first shot. They will have gone in there prepared to do this. Grow up.

            • Corky

               /  January 18, 2018

              Again you are pig ignorant about gun ownership and what a gun can and can’t do.

              A gun only gives you a fighting chance. There are no guarantees. You are right. Some gun owners are shot with their own guns or can’t get to their guns in time. They are the type of gun owners who buy a gun, put it in a draw and feel safe. Sensible gun owners take defensive shooting courses, and practice.They know practice improves their survival chances.

              Here is a chance for you to read about common sense that may have saved lives.

              http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/dairy-owner-shoots-robber-in-face-receives-support-2008080618

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 19, 2018

              Put it in a drawer, you mean. Meanwhile, the criminal has his gun in his hand, sees you going to the drawer and fires first,

              It’s false security.

              It’s also illegal in NZ not to have a gun locked in a cabinet when it’s not in use.

              Look up the stats of people who have been shot with their own guns in the US.

  2. sorethumb

     /  January 18, 2018

    Repeated attempts to skewer clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson fell flat in a remarkable interview with Britain’s Channel 4 news, reports the Spectator.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/17/youve-got-me-feminist-cathy-newman-crumbles-in-channel-4-interview-with-controversial-prof-jordan-peterson/

    • Blazer

       /  January 18, 2018

      nice one ..thumbo…pretty smart Professor.

    • High Flying Duck

       /  January 18, 2018

      That was seriously entertaining. SJW meets empirical data and carnage ensues.

  3. phantom snowflake

     /  January 18, 2018

    It appears that NZ Police are about to unleash Facial Recognition Technology upon us. I have just seen this tender:

    NZ Police are seeking proposals from suitably experienced, qualified and resourced companies to provide the ABIS 2 (Automated Biometric Identification Solution) Facial Image Identification and Management, Scar, Mark and Tattoo, and Clothing database Technology Solution(s).

    https://www.gets.govt.nz/NZP/ExternalTenderDetails.htm?id=19367937

    In my view this is a pretty big step towards total surveillance and totalitarianism; there should have at least been some public consultation and debate rather than this measure being presented to us as a fait accompli sometime later this year.

    There are many arguments to be made for and against this technology; here’s my own ‘take’ on it, which you won’t hear elsewhere:
    For those who exist on the continuum between social anxiety and fullblown paranoid psychosis, the proliferation of CCTV cameras has been a nightmare, and has led to the worsening of mental health for a significant number of people. Facial Recognition will take the nightmare to another level. Enough said…

    • sorethumb

       /  January 18, 2018

      I remember when the Greens (Keith Locke) opposed just about everything including crushing the cars of boy racers.

      • phantom snowflake

         /  January 18, 2018

        I remember when your replies used to, at least slightly, relate to my comments.

      • robertguyton

         /  January 18, 2018

        Keith was correct in everything he said.

    • sorethumb

       /  January 18, 2018

      Remember the RNZ technician who was beaten to death while walking home in the early hours of the morning etc

    • sorethumb

       /  January 18, 2018

      Need to watch Jordan Peterson on YouTube [chaos versus order]

      • phantom snowflake

         /  January 18, 2018

        No thanks, but I’m sure you would benefit from reading Dr. Robin DiAngelo on the subject of White Fragility.

        https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism-twlm/

        Utterly brilliant.

        • PartisanZ

           /  January 18, 2018

          “Utterly brilliant” ….. You got that right ps … thanks for the link.

          ” … white people can represent all of humanity, people of color can only represent their racial selves”

          “Socialized into a deeply internalized sense of superiority and entitlement that we are either not consciously aware of or can never admit to ourselves, we become highly fragile in conversations about race.”

          Bullseye!!! every paragraph, if not sentence. Bookmarked …

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  January 18, 2018

          Utterly obsessed. Whether short, tall, fat, thin, male, female, trans, homo, black, brown, yellow, mixed, religious, atheist, gypsy, jewish, old, young, nerdy, macho, pregnant, infertile, … you can convince yourself you are an oppressed minority and resent the rest of the world for not being like you or at least appreciating you.

          Or you can recognise that the rest of the world divides itself up into all the other categories and get on with living your life and rubbing along with others.

    • PartisanZ

       /  January 18, 2018

      Like most ‘crime stopping’ measures, Facial Automated Recognition Technology won’t reduce crime if the conditions that generate ever-increasing crime continue to worsen …

      What FART will accomplish is to further facilitate, escalate and embed into our necronomy* the already well established money-go-round Crime-and-Punishment industry … all conveniently paid for by the taxpayer … (though some private firms & individuals will reap gigantic rewards) …

      We won’t be able to build prisons fast enough to house all the convicts, hence Serco-managed, public-private partnership prisons, quotas etc etc … The McQuarrie Capital mass incarceration gravy train … the Aussies have the edge with this convict stuff …

      *necronomy – necros [death] + economy – deadly or death-based economy … new word #132 (? I may have lost count again?)

    • NOEL

       /  January 18, 2018

      Aw wouldn’t get too paranoid over CCTV and facial recognition.
      After the Boston bombing they experimented to see if using the two together would have made a quicker arrest.
      Found 10 suspects including the younger bomber ( 9 innocent) but didn’t locate the older bomber because he was wearing dark glasses.

      • Corky

         /  January 18, 2018

        True. Puff you cheeks out. Practice making your eyes similar to an Asians, and the chances are you wont be recognised

      • PartisanZ

         /  January 18, 2018

        No high-tech FART experimentation was required after the Rainbow Warrior bombing, was it? The public of Aotearoa New Zealand did the job admirably …

        Something akin to that should perhaps be the aspiration of ‘our’ police force, except that it means inverting most of the current trends. It means re-building all the nuances of community lost in the raiding-party regimes of Prince Rogered ‘the venal’, the nefarious Squirress Ruth and their Robber Baron money-vampyres.

        Sensitivities and feelings such as community, sense of belonging, neighbourly generosity and the like simply aren’t as productive-and-efficient as CCTV, IT, FART and a Corporate-Charitocracy. Nor do they perpetuate the dislocation and scarcity which breeds more demand and more greed …

        … more inequality … more want and more need … more crime … and more punishment …

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  January 18, 2018

          As Asians don’t all have identical eyes any more than any other people-Asia is a large continent and Asian is not a race. This is like saying ‘make your eyes look European.’

          Blowing out your cheeks is unlikely to have any effect.

          A local idiot was so opposed to photo drivers’ licences that he grew and dyed his hair and did other things to make himself look totally different.

          • Corky

             /  January 18, 2018

            Read up on facial recognition then post.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 18, 2018

              I did.

              Did you know that India, Japan, China, Vietnam, Laos and other countries are all Asian ? What on earth do you mean by making your eyes’ look Asian’ ? What do Asian eyes look like, apart from being dark in colour for the most part ?

            • Corky

               /  January 18, 2018

              India is not Asian in my opinion. I class them as Europeans.

              ”What on earth do you mean by making your eyes’ look Asian?”

              I told you to read up on this subject. You haven’t.

  4. sorethumb

     /  January 18, 2018

    Child abuse report ‘shut down’
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/318787/child-abuse-report-'shut-down

    Caught a bit of this last night. Ros Noonan blamed colonisation (breakup of hapu and Iwi) for Black power and the Mongrel mob. My problem with that is that the same applies to any peoples in industrial societies.

    • PartisanZ

       /  January 18, 2018

      It may well apply to “any peoples in industrial societies”.

      Perhaps consider the possibility that the colonizers’ wider-extended-family [hapu] and tribe [iwi] had already been dislocated, broken-up and devastated by first feudal agrarianism and then much moreso by the industrialization process? [There was also intra-Great Britain colonisation, Wales, Scotland & Ireland]

      These fractured peoples brought their various expressions of this already well-established phenomenon, such as the class-system, substance abuse especially alcohol, sexual depravity, religious hypocrisy, neo-tribalism – eg trade unions, employer federations, farmers feds, the NZ Legion et al – and militaristic violence to Aotearoa New Zealand and imposed it very suddenly, deviously, deceiptfully and violently upon Maori …

      One later, relatively contemporary reaction to this was the formation of so-called ‘gangs’ …

      Other earlier reactions included armed resistance, negotiation, attempts to unify Maoridom, passive resistance such as Rua Kenana at Maungapohatu and Te Whiti & Tohu at Parihaka … while others got into Pakeha government to change things from within, like Carroll, Apirana Ngata … and the whole much, much bigger story …

      • Griff

         /  January 18, 2018

        We did not do to Maori what they did to themselves.
        Twenty to fifty thousand died between 1800 and 1840 in inter tribal warfare.
        Out of 100,000.
        I always find it interesting when the result of the carnage and displacement of the inter tribal genocide is ignored. The culture that allowed such slaughter already had problems with tribal identity and violence.
        Blame it on the past all you like
        The thread is vastly more complex than your Evil Colonizers .

        • PartisanZ

           /  January 18, 2018

          The ‘Musket Wars’ … Right?

          So, um, from whom did these ‘stone age’ indigenous peoples get muskets?

          These ‘stone age’ peoples, who were accustomed at worst to hand-to-hand combat ‘battles’ and usually little more than skirmishes – and no-one really knows how often they fought each other pre-European contact – where did they get the idea of “all out war”?

          Of course they had ‘problems’ or issues with tribal identity and violence, just like Europeans had problems or issues with national identity, violence, brutality and war on an increasingly industrialized and increasingly global scale …

          • Griff

             /  January 18, 2018

            They had skirmishes
            Like you know a couple of hundred or so bros armed with some pretty effective stone, bone and wood weapons. The general idea of the pastime being to disable the opponent enough to bash out some grey matter.

            Some historians say the Spud probably had more effect on the raiding than muskets . An easily grown, stored and carried starch source allowed larger war party’s to be supported for longer.

            Ballara and fellow historian James Belich point out that muskets contributed less to the bloodbaths of the early 19th century than the ‘humble spud, which created the food surpluses war parties (taua) needed to supplement captured supplies and human bodies.’ As Gavin McLean points out, neither ‘Potato Wars’ nor ‘Taua’ stuck, so Musket Wars they became.

            As to muskets… NZ was lawless.
            like the wild west .
            But for real.
            Who was going to stop the gun runners at the bottom of the world?
            You had French, English American and Australian, and other nationality’s whaling and sealing. A booming timber industry again from many nations.
            Small community’s to provision and provide R&R for these endeavors. The less scrupulous captain could freight out muskets, cannon, black powder to sell at a profit when he delivered men and supply’s and left with whale, seals, timber,

            2000 total non maori resident in 1840.

            No government to withhold technology from maori.
            Just many different tribes trying to kill each other off as quickly as possible,

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 19, 2018

              Another theory is that the ‘humble potato’, along with missionary zeal, led to a greatly increased birth rate requiring much more crop cultivation …

              In the money-less society of hapu iwi, the way to achieve much more cultivation was using slaves, hence massive raiding parties to acquire them …

              Another theory is that Hone Hika travelled to Britain where he was extremely impressed by A) Monarchy – single autocratic rule and B) Militarism – highly organised ‘overwhelming force’ armed services and their training …

              He came back and put what he’d learned into action …

              Whatever the reasons, which are almost certainly multiple and complex, they weren’t simply “trying to kill each other off”.

              If they’d been to other colonial outposts, ie South America, and watched other colonizing nations like the Portugese and Spanish simply exterminate whole populations, I guess things might have been different …?

              My point is that your central argument is something akin to: It’s okay for me to abuse a person or people because I perceive them to have abused themselves.

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  January 18, 2018

      Roz Noonan ignores the fact that gangs have existed since time immemorial in all countries.

      She seems to have a poor opinion of the Maori people.

      • Corky

         /  January 18, 2018

        She’s not the only one.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  January 18, 2018

          Yes, but she seems to be patronisingly racist rather than ignorantly bigoted,

          • Corky

             /  January 18, 2018

            I’m half Maori. Your criticism is invalid. In fact I’m calling you a white racist.

  5. NOEL

     /  January 18, 2018

    Forgot to add I’m guessing the new tender is to replace PIM which has been used since 2007.

  6. lurcher1948

     /  January 18, 2018

    This is why trump is the slim fit skinny bright bugger that he is…
    http://www.newsweek.com/president-donald-trump-stormy-daniels-affair-melania-trump-783790

    • Well, the pussy-grabbing conversation, complete with details of what he had tried to do to a married woman who wasn’t interested and his irresistible technique in these cases was not long after the wedding.

      If Red Velvet-Ears decides to compete in the Waikato, let me know ! He can come and visit me and my dog.

    • Corky

       /  January 18, 2018

      Still hurting,son? While you are swallowing your Statin pill, Trumpy is taking the piss, munching on cheese burgers and washing it down with root beer.😄

      • Gezza

         /  January 18, 2018

        I watched most of the doc’s briefing on YouTube. Trumpy’s on statins. His doctor is increasing the dosage because his cholesterol is a little high. He said he’s also working with him to develop an excercise program & enlisting the First Lady’s & the white house chef’s assistance to improve his diet.

  7. lurcher1948

     /  January 18, 2018

    This is for you KITTY, TEAM FRASER…