Inconclusive report on income/wealth gap

Oxfam are releasing a report today on the wealth gap in New Zealand. but it’s not clear what point they are trying to make.

RNZ: One percent of the population, 30 percent of the wealth

New Oxfam research shows the richest one percent of New Zealanders earned 28 percent of all the wealth created last year.

The research shows that the 1.4 million people who make up the poorest 30 percent of the population barely got one percent of the national growth in wealth.

The interview of Rachel le Mesurier didn’t really clear up confusion over income and wealth in the interview:

https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018628926/rich-poor-in-new-zealand-oxfam-report-shows-huge-wealth-gap

It’s worth listening to the interview to see how headline grabbing but vague this publicity is. Guyon Espiner asked le Mesurier what point they were trying to make and what solutions they were suggesting, but all she really did was intimate having a lot of wealth was bad and poor people were poor. She did talk vaguely about the tax working group doing something about things.

The charity’s executive director, Rachel le Mesurier, said the level of inequality in the past two years had remained the same.

“All around the world there has been a significant shift [of] wealth, particularly around property, and that’s something that many New Zealanders will be familiar with.

“In many cases … people have become wealthier with actually not having to work very hard for it … This is not fair, we should be rewarding work and not wealth.”

Ms le Mesurier told Morning Report the gap between the extremely rich and the rest of the population was unacceptable.

“The poorest proportion of our society really gained no extra benefit from that new wealth last year.”

“One of the reasons [the gap has increased] is property prices … but there are others.”

So forcing property prices down would close the ‘gap’, but how could it actually help poorer people?

Espiner asked her what would change if the wealth of the wealthiest New Zealander was redistributed and she diidn’t have much to say about it.

“We’ve got a tax working group. We’re very keen for New Zealand to have a conversation about tax – what is fair tax, what is balanced tax?

“A good number of [global] billionaires don’t necessarily work hard … Two-thirds of them have either been to build on their inheritance, they’ve actually got a monopoly.”

I’m not sure how the tax working group can recommend changes that will ensure those who work the hardest are taxed the least.

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110 Comments

  1. Presently it’s loaded ( taxation) in favor of those with the least and those who spend less.

    663,000 households – or 40 per cent – receive more in tax credits and other benefits than they pay in tax. Thousands more are neutral contributors, or are close to it.

  2. Blazer

     /  January 22, 2018

    I think the point…may have been…’: One percent of the population, 30 percent of the wealth’..this is not good,fair or how an egalitarian society…works.

    • Yes it is. You want to give half your house and assets away to your neighbors ?

    • You do get that 40% pay no tax and are nett recipients don’t you!

      They can get saving can’t they or go to Bali, while muggins no kids or Grandad had them already and paid through the nose can’t even buy a beer.

  3. Alan Wilkinson

     /  January 22, 2018

    Drivelling idiocy from Oxfam.

    In many cases … people have become wealthier with actually not having to work very hard for it … This is not fair, we should be rewarding work and not wealth.”

    Brain dead stupid. Wealth comes from saving and investment, not spending.

    Ms le Mesurier told Morning Report the gap between the extremely rich and the rest of the population was unacceptable.

    More stupidity. The extremely rich are those who have created large successful businesses and most of their paper wealth is tied up in those as investments that are providing thousands of jobs and services for the population.

    “The poorest proportion of our society really gained no extra benefit from that new wealth last year.”

    Untrue. When the economy is strong more investment and activity means more jobs and more funding for health, education and welfare services.

    “One of the reasons [the gap has increased] is property prices … but there are others.”

    General asset inflation is a symptom of over-regulation limiting productive investment and making it unprofitable. Trump’s deregulation has seen a big improvement in the US economy. No doubt Oxfam opposes that.

    • Never, ever give them a cent. I don’t anymore.

      • Corky

         /  January 22, 2018

        Did 80 plus % of donations go on running costs and first class travel for these free meal ticket prats?

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  January 22, 2018

        I used to, but this sort of thing has made me rethink…I gave a lot to Unicef and Medecins Sans Frontieres last year. My income is very small, but those people have none.

    • Blazer

       /  January 22, 2018

      ‘Brain dead stupid. Wealth comes from saving and investment, not spending’…pull the other one Al..it plays a quintet by..Schubert.

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  January 22, 2018

        You can’t seriously believe that someone who spends all their money will become or stay rich, unless they spend it on things that are investments.

      • Blazer

         /  January 22, 2018

        if you invest’ in entities like A.I.G and many other financial basket cases,you can rely on the Govt(taxpayers) to bail you out instead of taking the bath…you deserve.

        • David

           /  January 22, 2018

          “if you invest’ in entities like A.I.G and many other financial basket cases,you can rely on the Govt(taxpayers) to bail you out instead of taking the bath…you deserve.”

          Shareholders in AIG were wiped out, they did not get ‘bailed out’. It’s only the company that actually got bailed out. The Federal Reserve received all the equity in AIG for the bailout and turned a profit of around $20bn from the deal.

          • Blazer

             /  January 22, 2018

            who were the shareholders in A.I.G then,if you think you know?

            • David

               /  January 22, 2018

              All those who held shares in AIG prior to the bail out, there where many thousands of them. You do realise they got nothing don’t you?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  January 22, 2018

              David, you can tell B the facts time after time but it just goes in one ear and out the other. He will spout the same drivel till he dies since he never learns and doesn’t want to.

            • Blazer

               /  January 23, 2018

              David-‘AIG investors, led by the State of Michigan pension, accused the company of misleading shareholders about how risky the credit default swaps were that it issued. AIG agreed to pay $970.5 million to investors who bought AIG shares between March 16, 2006 and September 16, 2008. This was one of the largest class-action settlements from the 2008 financial crisis. (Source: “AIG to Pay Nearly $1 Billion to Settle Class-Action Suit Brought by Shareholders,” The New York Times, March 22, 2015.)’
              bondholders-‘At the heart of the controversy is the fact that the government has never provided a plausible explanation for why the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, which had enormous leverage over banks like Goldman thanks to its role as their regulator, didn’t lean on them to accept less than 100 cents on the dollar in their payouts from A.I.G…..no haircut.NYT.

    • sorethumb

       /  January 22, 2018

      Tonight, a pumped de Roos tells his audience that he wants people to invest in property and write to him 12 months down the track and tell him they’ve “made one million or three million, or you’ve got 16 properties, or we’re taking six months off because our cash flow now exceeds our outflow!” He says, “I don’t know any other activity where the rewards are so huge. If you want to invest a million dollars in the sharemarket, you need a million dollars. If you want to invest a million in real estate, you only need $100,000.”

      You can buy one property, get it revalued, use the equity to buy another property and then buy another and another. “And you do it all with OPM. Other people’s money. OPM. It’s like being high on drugs!” What’s more, the wonder of depreciation claims on the building and contents means “the government subsidises your investment! It’s delightful!”

      House of The Rising Sum -Pamela Stirling Listener.

      • David

         /  January 22, 2018

        ” If you want to invest a million dollars in the sharemarket, you need a million dollars. If you want to invest a million in real estate, you only need $100,000.””

        This is not true. You can borrow just as much for sharemarket investment as you can with property.

        • Blazer

           /  January 22, 2018

          depends on the security..as you should know.The leverage is different and the margin calls can be..fatal.

    • PartisanZ

       /  January 22, 2018

      @Alan – ” … providing thousands of jobs and services for the population”

      If a significant proportion of these jobs are underpaid – enabling the extreme wealth in the first place – and require taxation & transfer to the very same workers – taxation spread inequitably between the socio-economic ‘classes’ – and if a significant proportion of the goods & services provided are either unnecessary duplications and luxuries or actually harmful … liquor, tobacco and much processed ‘food’ come to mind instantly, ie soft drinks …

      … then the whole thing is kind of self-defeating …

      … unless you have some force in place favouring its [self-defeating] extreme wealth creation …. Unless you have a corporate-capitalist controlled government …

      @Alan – “General asset inflation is a symptom of over-regulation limiting productive investment and making it unprofitable”

      There are numerous other factors affecting what you sanguinely call “general asset inflation”, one being the unique position real-estate occupies in this realm … the entirely unethical position of ‘property in the soil’ …

      Not everyone needs a car, boat or any number of other general assets … but everyone needs a ‘home’ …

      http://fortune.com/2016/12/29/real-estate-trends-2017-2/

      I couldn’t find any really up-to-date information, but there’s no reason to think Trump isn’t simply promulgating real-estate inflation … in other words, “business as usual” …

  4. PartisanZ

     /  January 22, 2018

    The various statistics, including traveller’s above, indicate a kind of ‘systems failure’ …

    Or is it the tax credit beneficiaries and neutral contributors “own fault” …?

    • Own fault? It is what it is.

      Doesn’t matter if Jacinda has a pigeon pair of beautiful twins, kiwis won’t allow death and wealth taxes. Nothing will convince them that a mad bunch of twittering ministers, Mr 7% time for a drink and the rollover pat my tummy anti Green watermelons can run the show.

      • Blazer

         /  January 22, 2018

        do you have to bring Jacinda into every conversation…O.C.D…get help.

        • This from Mr whatabout himself.

          • Blazer

             /  January 22, 2018

            such delicious…irony.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 22, 2018

              @traveller – “Own fault?”

              Okay trav, so it’s not their own fault.

              And yet, the low-paid, underemployed and casualized workforce – the Precariat – is forced to survive on lower-than-subsistence-wages plus government tax credits, top-ups and subsidies … through no fault of their own …

              Systems Failure is what this is called.

              One of the most obvious failures is accommodation supplement, which maintains our real-estate-based [FIIRE] economy for the benefit of investors and speculators, at the expense of all taxpayers, including, of course, large numbers of the Precariat who depend on it …

              Systems …… Failure …….

  5. sorethumb

     /  January 22, 2018

    Rich, poor in New Zealand: Oxfam report shows huge wealth gap https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018628926/rich-poor-in-new-zealand-oxfam-report-shows-huge-wealth-gap
    “This is about wealth – about assets, particularly in the OECD that is property”

    “Asset inflation isnt wealth creation – it simply creates a charge (first home buyer/renter) elsewhere in the economy” – Kurt Rickenbacher.

  6. sorethumb

     /  January 22, 2018

    Greg Clydesdale finishes The Politically Correct Economy with “the government has made an economy for property investors and developers”.

  7. Corkt

     /  January 22, 2018

    The wealth gap is a worthless index of use to no one. Why not a one kilometre running index? Where we can measure our fitness and health against others based on a kilometre timed run. Of course such a measure is of limited use for testing fitness because of many different factors..age for example.

  8. Bare percentages like this mean zip. Mobility through earnings bands and accumulation of wealth are the normal path over a persons lifecycle. Comparing an 18 year old fresh out of college to a 50 year old in their peak earning years is simple NONESENSE….

    If you sit in the bottom percentages your whole life then yes its either your fault OR you were born unlucky whether just unlucky, born with a low IQ potential or really unlucky and through no fault of your own been intellectually or physical handicapped. We can help those via social welfare when the born disabled, suffer an accident etc. There is no help for the stupid or gullible if they don’t wish to take advice…

    I don’t care Graeme Hart has a net worth in the Billions – he has worked for it and provided a lot of employment opportunities, ditto the Fletcher dynasty or the Myers previously.

    If the prime driver for wealth disparity is property prices, well lets fix the RMA and boost supply to flatten or reduce prices…

    OXFAM was set up to help FAMINE victims in the 3rd world. Now its just a leftie agenda pushing NGO hiding its purpose behind “good works”. Their index is a crock of brown, steaming dog poo…

  9. Blazer

     /  January 22, 2018

    ‘I don’t care Graeme Hart has a net worth in the Billions – he has worked for it and provided a lot of employment opportunities, ditto the Fletcher dynasty or the Myers previously.’
    patent nonsense…all had huge leg ups.Hugh Fletcher couldn’t run a ..bath.

    • Corky

       /  January 22, 2018

      How did Graeme Hart get a lift up?

      • Blazer

         /  January 22, 2018

        Govt Printing office.Lange refused to sign it off.At a sale price of $23 mil ,it represented 1 years turnover.Prebble signed it off.A gift from the taxpayers of NZ…just like Fay and Gibbs ..got.

        • Corky

           /  January 22, 2018

          Yes, but how did Hart go from being a truck driver to being in a position to bid for big contracts?

          • Blazer

             /  January 22, 2018

            Harts Printing in Newton…heads up on the deal,state asset sell off by Douglas and co.The tow truck driver story is true but just the inevitable anecdote.How did Fay and Gibbs turn a deferred 50k payment for the ‘kiwishare’ in Telecom when sold to the yanks into over…200million…hardwork ..you think!

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 22, 2018

              Telecom … and Railways … and BNZ and Air NZ … and the list goes on and on …

              Hard work my arse … Thievery … Highway Robbery … Robber Barony more like … Insider trading jobs one-and-all …

              And ‘we’ collectively worship these people … give them Knighthoods FFS!

              I’d rather see a glossy magazine with a pregnant PM on the cover than any of these arseholes …

            • Corky

               /  January 22, 2018

              The answer is Hart took a punt. There’s nothing stopping anyone from taking a punt. That’s if you can stomach being a loser, or an abject failure. Hart must have steel balls. He now enjoys the spoils.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 22, 2018

              Being gifted a government business for a fraction of its real value hardly constitutes “taking a punt” …

              He now enjoys the obscene spoils of corporate-capitalism’s puppet-state-sponsored differential advantage … at the expense of the Precariat in the very same society he reaps the spoils from and enjoys them in …

              Yep … steel balls ……… not real balls …..

            • Corky

               /  January 22, 2018

              No one wants to talk about the truck driver.
              No one wants to talk about Owen Glenn working seven jobs.
              No one wants to talk about the state house tenant who became a property magnate.
              Another state house tenant became the PM.
              No one wants to talk about the rich listers who became rich by offer the public products or services.

              But as you can see above, hate filled envy is a widespread entrenched attitude in Aotearoa. It’s one of our societal weaknesses…failure to salute success and chopping down tall poppies.

            • Blazer

               /  January 22, 2018

              @Corky ..there are a few exceptions..Glenn is one.None of the others you allude to,make the…cut.

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 22, 2018

              Most people want those ‘hard workers’ to be JUSTLY rewarded … Big investment, big risk, reasonable ‘big’ rewards … no problemo …

              Same as ALL workers should be justly rewarded. Most aren’t …

              The extremely rich take more than their due; more than their share. They take part of what’s due to the rest … what’s due to all the other workers …

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  January 22, 2018

        Well, Corks, we all know (from listening to Blazer) that that’s how rich people become rich.
        Don’t argue with him, he knows.

        The only billionaire I know made his money himself because he is so clever (a nice Jewish boy, of course) and took chances. He began in computers when Microsoft was a pup, because he had the sense to see that this was the way of the future. His family is a middle class one who were well-off but not rich, The children went to university and had careers/professions. D—G—– made his own opportunities-no leg ups there.

        • Blazer

           /  January 22, 2018

          especially do not argue with Blazer when you are lying…NZ has 2 billionaires,3 if you count Thiel,and none made their money from…computers.Away with you.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 22, 2018

            Who said that he was a New Zealander ? Not me.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              I don’t suppose than an apology for calling someone a liar when they are not one will be forthcoming. And no, I have no intention of name-dropping=it’s none of your business, I can’t help it if you leap to conclusions and make baseless assumptions.

            • Blazer

               /  January 22, 2018

              you know him..right…the only problem is he doesn’t know you..Grimalkin Mitty rides..again.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              Rubbish. This man has been to my house. He spends time in NZ. If I was going to pretend to know someone whom I do not, I would give a name. Please do not call people liars without evidence. I will not name drop to please nosey parkers.

            • Blazer

               /  January 22, 2018

              ‘If I was going to pretend to know someone whom I do not, I would give a name. ‘…some ..logic.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              Well, I would. There’s no point in pretending to know someone and not giving a name, meshuggeneh.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 22, 2018

            It’s sad to see someone so eaten up with envy, spite and jealousy. You deserve pity, really.

            • Blazer

               /  January 22, 2018

              you may worship the rich,and kowtow to them…hoping for a pat on the head.I have found that adage…’behind every big fortune..is a big crime’…oh ..so true..

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              As you don’t know the origin of every fortune that has ever existed, that statement is witless.

              As you don’t know me and how I act around people, that statement is also witless.

              Anyone who patted me on the head would be told not to. You assume that anyone who happens to know rich people must kowtow to them because of this. Does it occur to you that not everyone is like you and that not everyone sees people with money as walking wallets ? I find people interesting or not, their money is irrelevant to me. Their money takes nothing from me. They have earned it and I haven’t. I don’t hang around hoping for a handout and would be wasting my time if I did.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              A pat on the head would hardly be worth hanging around and kowtowing for. You may think it would, I certainly don’t

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              Name ten to whom your sweeping statement applies.

            • Blazer

               /  January 22, 2018

              @KC..you name 10 wealthy NZ’ers and I will educate..you.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              Envy and spite from someone full of jealousy of anyone better off than they are- not an education that I want, thank you.

            • Blazer

               /  January 22, 2018

              @KC..for someone who prides herself on the English language..what a reveal to see..all you can do is regurgitate the cliches the wealthy use as a defence..when they cannot explain …how they became…rich.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              Bollocks. It’s obvious that you have to sneer at people better off than you are and say that their achievements are the result of dishonesty or chance rather than hard graft. Ever heard of Stephen Tindall who began The Warehouse ? Ever heard of Alan Gibbs ? The fact that people make money from hard work and initiative has nothing to do with the English language. You really are barrel-scraping now.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              Of course. Anyone could have bought those shares and made money from them. There were no guarantees-they could have gone down. This is not the only way in which Alan Gibbs has made money. He is a clever, hard-working man who is reaping the rewards.

              I know that he is a very generous philanthropist-I wonder if you are.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              You give the impression of being consumed with bile and malice against anyone who has done better in life than you.

            • Blazer

               /  January 22, 2018

              ‘anyone could have bought those shares and made money off them’…this is where our dialogue ceases..you have N.F.I…
              ‘Gibbs, who as chief executive of Forestry Corporation in 1986 had chainsawed staff numbers from 7070 to 2770, wanted Telecom staff cut to 6500. Troughton resigned somewhat abruptly in February 1992, shortly after proposing an advertising campaign to deal with Clear. The way Gibbs tells it, the campaign featured “a big Goliath figure” grunting as he climbed a hill with a huge rock called Clear on his shoulders. “I said you must be crazy; the country would laugh itself stupid to think that Telecom is a poor giant carrying a terrible burden.”

              Gibbs, who was on the Telecom board, was worried enough about the company’s stagnant share price to confront top Ameritech and Bell Atlantic executives with his concerns. ‘
              on the Telecom Board..before the sale…Kiwishare 10%…100,000 deposit…what brilliance,what a hardworker…thanks Roger and the NZ taxpayer.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 23, 2018

              from them, not off them. Any shares listed on the market can be bought by anyone.

              Alan Gibbs began with a farm-he is now very rich and has enough self-confidence to not give a stuff what mean-minded, envious people who can’t believe that anyone who succeeds in life does it honestly.

              People like him spend many hours doing what they do before they relax and enjoy the proceeds. Look at some of his inventions.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 23, 2018

              I have some knowledge of how shares work. It’s a gamble, of course. I sold the ones that I was left in a legacy because I wanted the cash. I could have held them, but decided not to.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  January 22, 2018

              I disagree, Kitty. B doesn’t deserve pity. He wallows in his miserable malevolence as happy as a pig in mud and as little inclined either to leave it or learn from it.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 23, 2018

              I am glad that I am not him, anyway.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 23, 2018

              In that case, the poor fellow does deserve pity-think what such people miss in life. They can’t bear to see anyone else enjoying anything and have to try to bring them down-real spoilers of the fun.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  January 22, 2018

          Partizanz, if you know that these people have broken the law by insider trading, why haven’t you reported them ? You and Blazer are making some serious accusations here.

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 22, 2018

            Inside tips, favoured treatment, sales and contracts should be classified as insider trading IMHO …

            They operated at the very fringes of the law as far as I’m concerned … as does government procurement nowadays … Reports keep saying “there’s nothing illegal about it” … Well, things can be ‘legal’ and entirely immoral and unethical.

            How do you think Fay, Richwhite became the preferred Merchant Bankers for state-asset sales etc?

      • Its an old boys club according to Blazer. The whole thing is rigged. What a horrible way to live your life thinking its all against you. Don’t bother with him Corky you’re wasting you time…

        • PartisanZ

           /  January 22, 2018

          It’s quite possible to ‘know’ things without letting them worry you all the time dave1924 … without being obsessed by them …

          You surely must experience and understand this yourself?

          For instance, I myself, and I suspect Blazer too, don’t believe for a moment that exploitative capitalists who are ‘raking it in’ at other people’s expense spend all their time gloating and preening about it …

          • Old communists don’t die, they just whine and screech their envy and despair all the way to the grave ay Parti…..

            I don’t care if people get rich – they generally make others better off on the way…e.g. Bill Gates made many employees millionaires on the journey form start up to todays behemoth and now Billy boy is giving billions away to charity while encouraging others like Buffett to do the same. Horrible, horrible capitalists !!! Compare it to all those brilliant socialists and communists down the years with their unrelenting destruction

            The only socialist who have ever succeed are extreme moderates who allow the dirty capitalists to create wealth and then apply moderate tax and redistribution mechanisms.

            How do you cope being so bitter Parti???

            • Blazer

               /  January 23, 2018

              you ask for evidence..you got it…you don’t like it…so you resort to the manual…socialists,communists’…bring back the dancing Cossacks …you just don’t understand the…Con..even though you ..live it.

            • hahaha – haven’t seen your plan yet Blazer, as called for in a previous reply to you – I don’t expect to because of course judging by your track record – and now you’ve resorted to your standard mode of operation: of stalk and snarl. God you are so funny – don’t go changing dude, the amusement/clown factor you provide is very, very high…

              BTW: I particularly love your developing conspiracy meme… its beautiful and really amping up nicely of late. I have a tip for you – the biggest conspiracy is none of us get out alive…

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 23, 2018

              @dave1924 – “The only socialists who have ever succeeded are extreme moderates … ”

              I beg to differ dave. No real ‘evolved’ socialist state has ever existed.

              The existing models like the Soviet Union, China & North Korea are enforced totalitarian dictatorship – a very Right-Wing thing – labelled ‘socialist’ or ‘communist’ …

              They are all derivatives of capitalism anyhow … eg, Russian ‘revolution’ communism basically desired rapid mechanization of agriculture and industrial manufacturing – essentially in the capitalist mold where people serve the machines – to compete economically, militarily and later imperially with the West …

              The “moderate tax and redistribution mechanisms” such as we employ is something other than socialism too, which has never been adequately defined or named – perhaps social democratic capitalism? – although it may be a stage or phase of ever evolving socialism …

              Some of Bill Gates ‘millionaire’ former employees are now making noises about the internet and social media destroying the very fabric of society dave.

              Why don’t any of these obscenely rich techno and media magnates employ a PAYE ethos of giving? Why wait? Perhaps their ‘giving’ is evidence they’ve finally realized their own folly? What proportion of their wealth do they give away? Is it tax deductible? To what extent is it ‘advertising’?

              And the obvious question is, why not PAYE the unpaid wages which constitute their ‘excess profits’ – not their reasonable profits – along to the sweatshop employees who assemble, package, ship and in some cases market their ‘products’ … and who earned the excess profits for them?

              If, for argument’s sake, World War II was a battle of almost unbelievable “unrelenting destruction” between three political ethos – all capital-intensive-industrial – A) Totalitarian Communism, B) Totalitarian National Socialism and C) ‘Democratic’ Imperial Capitalism ……….. Who won?

              How do you cope with being so myopic …?

            • Myopic? Do you listen to yourself – seriously you are so far down the Kelsey wormhole light doesn’t penetrate.

              PAYE principle – well maybe genuine capitlaist innovators think they have stuff to do and build for which they need investment money Parti… so they hold their hard earnt profits to reinvest AND then at the end of their careers move on to charitable works… You know savings reinvested to grow the pie ever bigger to benefit everyone.

              I still haven’t seen you or your running mate Blazer posit a guest post on how social co-operative enterprises could work and replace the current model. Please write one up and send it to Pete

              Tax deductability for charitable purposes – you need to look up the rules. IN NZ its a 33% rebate – overseas no idea. But tax dodging is not the driver for Gates, Buffet etc – its a desire to give back

              “Sweatshops” – in the 3rd world Parti those wages are much sort after as the alternative is bleak… not saying its right but its a reality and it lays the foundation for a gradual uplift in living standards in those countries.

              And in closing isn’t it so revealing that no REAL Socialist socities have ever been – all the flag bearers to date have not been socialist! That is the oldest cop out from Socialists and Communists – it wasn’t REAL socilaist/communism it was perverted…. fun how every time its tried it goes bang! and lots of people suffer… but ya know TRUST us ONE. MORE. TIME. And we will create paradise on earth… your self delusion is unreal when the evidence stares at you from a hall of infamy… Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc etc

            • Blazer

               /  January 24, 2018

              wasted on that Gadfly…Parti…too hard basket.

            • Not produced your alternative for our critique yet Blazer? Hurry up I’m waiting to see your distilled wisdom

            • Blazer

               /  January 24, 2018

              lets just wind back a little…do you accept that NZ’s richest man had a huge ‘leg up’…compliments of the NZ taxpayer?

            • I’ll answer your questions when you have answered mine and have rolled back the abuse. you dish out.

              So that’s never… because a blazer can’t admit wrong doing or apologise..

              Ciao Blaze – enjoy…

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 24, 2018

              Very debatable whether genuine capitalist innovators benefit everyone dave …

              Wow, a 33% rebate … but its not tax dodging … its the genuine desire to give back. Why? Because they say so? You’re actually quite gullible.

              Why should the 3rd World wait around for “gradual uplift”?

              Is this like medicinal cannabis is a “no brainer”?

              The fact you can’t recognize totalitarian despotism glaring you in the face is both very telling and not my problem.

              There are numerous models of cooperatives including, of course, producer coops which largely exploit the traditional capitalist employer-employee relationship … consumer coops … franchise coops … and worker coops …

              https://nz.coop/top-30-co-ops/

              https://nz.coop/understanding-co-ops/useful-links/

              https://usworker.coop/home/

              https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/

              The only Cossacks to ever defile these sacred shores were “Massey’s Cossacks” … Young farmer-fascists enlisted as ‘Specials’ to violently curb and destroy the rights of, and physically injure, their fellow New Zealanders … although similar ‘Special Constables’ have been used elsewhere in our history too, ie Parihaka …

              ‘Moderate socialism’ which allows capitalist enterprise as fully as is socially responsible possible is a fairly accurate description of my ethical ideal, “The maximum of freedom for each, combined with the maximum regard for the life and freedom of every other” (Warner)

            • So… ad hominens as usual “You’re actually quite gullible”

              Strawmen ” Cossacks” – you or Blazer introduced those.

              “Wow, a 33% rebate … but its not tax dodging” Ummmmm no its a recognition that Charities are not tax and nor are charitable donations – been that way in NZ for decades Parti.. decades. People give because they care and it makes them feel they are contributing. But you assign base values to it. That is truly sad that your world view is so blinkered to the good in many NZers who freely give a portion of their AFTER TAX incomes to charity.

              “Very debatable whether genuine capitalist innovators benefit everyone dave …” Really? Really? So motor cars, modern pharmaceuticals & medical devices, all sorts of small day to day items that make your life easier and safer… all produced by people seeking a monetary gain [either the inventors, discoveries or those who brought these goods to market] NO ONE benefited form these things? Seriously step away from the keyboard and have a think!!

              So there are successful co-ops. Brilliant. Go forth and set more up and give away the profits or work to a zero profit goal. Nothing stopping you. BUT if I want to have a competitive non co-op model then i should be allowed – I start the company I take the risk I get the benefit…

        • Blazer

           /  January 22, 2018

          the truth is often unpalatable,but nevertheless ..it is still..the truth.

        • Blazer

           /  January 22, 2018

          Fletcher and Myers define old boys club….FFS!

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 22, 2018

            Business Roundtable … ?

            The new faith-keepers of feudal capitalism.

    • Name Graeme Harts leg up – Blazer… please illuminate me….

      Leg ups so what anyway.

      Your envy and pettiness is pretty evident

      • PartisanZ

         /  January 22, 2018

        Blazer’s comments don’t evidence petty envy dave1924 …

        Yours evidence petty presumption of pettiness …

        “Legs up” to the making of obscene individual fortunes through the destruction of a socially progressive way of life are, indeed, a matter of real and considerable concern …

        Dismissing them with a “so what” says an awful lot … emphasis on “awful” …

        • Do Blazers comments evidence petty jealous?? Absolutely.

          Blazer is a towering intellect obviously, based on his numerous postings on this forum, who understands the world, how it works and how businesses work.

          So why does he spend all his time on here whining – why is he not out there forming equitable, co-operative enterprises with shareholder/employees reaping all the benefits and building wealth for the downtrodden?

          I will tell you why – because he is a BS merchant who likes to throw stones from the sideline and cry foul, foul its not fair all day…

          • Blazer

             /  January 23, 2018

            listen to the in and out burger…drowning in kool aid.Surprised you’re monitoring my time on here…hotshot.

            • Touched a nerve Blazer?

              I spend little time on here any more. But when I glance in, every thread is heavily populated with your comments.

              You like to dish a little snide commentary Blazer but rear up when tickled under the chin.

              So what are you doing to solve the problems you describe Blazer? Lets hear your step by step solution to building peoples co-operative businesses that cut out dirty capitalists and pave the way for a bright new future for the poor working classes…

              You seem to have all day everyday, and for a man/woman/other gendered person of your intellect and accumen should be a doddle surely….

            • Blazer

               /  January 23, 2018

              last time I took the time to elaborate…you took off .!Lets see your dissertation on the free market,capitalism and class society.Making assumptions ,just another example of your ..impotence and impudence.

      • Blazer

         /  January 22, 2018

        already have…if you read posts other than your own…you can get..educated.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  January 22, 2018

          Insider trading is a crime that carries a 5 year sentence or $500,000 fine or both. If you know that it’s going on, you have a duty to report it. If you don’t know, stop acting as if you do.

          Giving someone a start is perfectly all right-your envy and Blazer’s envy are really showing here.

          • Blazer

             /  January 22, 2018

            of the very few insiders ‘caught’ in NZ name one that did any jail time at..all.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 22, 2018

              There has only been one, as far as I know, and the man, Jeffrey Honey, who was the first, was given home detention. The shares were only worth $51,000.

            • Blazer

               /  January 22, 2018

              Eric Watson,Kerry Hoggard,Bob Jones…slap on the..wrist ..thats 3 from …memory.

  10. Mefrostate

     /  January 22, 2018

    I think Oxfam have done a pretty atrocious job of communicating the actual problem at hand here: land prices. Rognlie’s work, building on that of Piketty, showed that the returns from economic growth are increasingly accruing to land-owners rather than workers. That is the core driver of wealth inequality in NZ, and is of far more concern to me than income inequality (which has been largely flat since 2000).

    High land prices are widening the class divide between homeowners and renters, reduce geographic mobility, hurt productivity, reduce inter-generational mobility, and are antithetical to a meritocracy.

    In terms of solutions, we desperately need to reform the RMA to reduce land-use regulation so that our cities can expand and intensify, and we need to move a decent chunk of the tax base from labour income and onto land.

    • PartisanZ

       /  January 22, 2018

      Excellent comment Mefrostate and thanks for the links …

      ” … we need to move a decent chunk of the tax base from labour income and onto land.”

      We know this already, have known it for a long time, so what we don’t need is a third Tax Working Group to sit for a couple of years before they recommend it …

      Alan, I agree about RMA reform, provided it doesn’t become a free-for-all …

      • Mefrostate

         /  January 22, 2018

        We know this already, have known it for a long time, so what we don’t need is a third Tax Working Group to sit for a couple of years before they recommend it …

        Yes and even worse, this one has terms of reference that are so restrictive that they essentially have to recommend a capital gains tax excluding owner-occupied property. Infuriating because left to their own devices the experts would conclude that exclusions create avoidance loopholes, and that LVT or risk-free return taxes would be far better.

        • PartisanZ

           /  January 23, 2018

          Absolutely … Whatever you may think of him, Gareth Morgan was bang-on-target with TOP’s ‘asset tax’ …

  11. Zedd

     /  January 22, 2018

    Oxfam are just saying ‘Mind the Gap’ in many countries including: Aotearoa/NZ it is just getting wider. Hopefully this new Lab-led Govt. will do something to ‘stem the tide’ (running ALL uphill currently) thx to last mob, oh dear..

  12. sorethumb

     /  January 22, 2018

    Here is an example of how wealth and power colude to make the rich richer and the poor poorer
    http://imgbox.com/hPbuHrAE

    • PartisanZ

       /  January 23, 2018

      Sounding very ‘Lefty’ there yourself sorethumb … although the little article demonstrates well how blurred, indistinct and relatively useless the labels Left and Right have become IMHO …

      Is it the Left or the Right arguing for more productive and efficient export industries …?

      Is it the Left or the Right who allow “as the sector gets larger, it gains in lobbying/political strength …?

      Chris Trotter talks in terms of “wealth & power” versus “fairness and equality” …

      • Mefrostate

         /  January 23, 2018

        I agree PZ, the Left vs Right bickering in NZ and among many commentators here is quickly becoming out-of-date and tiresome.

        Ignoring the extremists in the communist wing of the Greens, and the libertarian wing of National (they call it ‘ACT’ nowadays), I think the left-right divide has largely become Small-Medium government vs Medium-Small government.

        It’s a far narrower bridge to cross compared to the chasm of Open v Closed in terms of policies on trade, immigration, capital flows.