Open Forum – Wednesday

24 January 2018

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45 Comments

  1. sorethumb

     /  January 24, 2018

    Nationalism trumps democracy
    And there are matters, like the preservation of a unique people and nation, that are too important to be left to temporary majorities to decide.
    http://www.vdare.com/articles/patrick-j-buchanan-is-democracy-on-the-way-down?content=of%20such%20a

  2. Corky

     /  January 24, 2018

    Yesterday an acquaintance asked me for my secret of making people like me. I had a quiet laugh while thinking of this blog. I told him he wouldn’t be able to handle the truth, but not being a film buff, he didn’t get the hint and pressed on.

    The secret I said was good manners, being polite and finding something interesting about the person to comment on.

    ”Bullshit,” he replied, ”you are holding out.”

    It’s ironic, but people like him attend numerous seminars, from NLP to Dale Carnegie , but never develop the basics first. Good manners and being polite become more scarce by the year. Next time you are shopping, just observe the surly pricks lined up at the checkout. The checkout operator has a whole shift dealing with people who look down on them as ”things.”

    So when I rock up, I’m like an oasis in a parched desert.

    Look,read and apply, Lurchy. Your life will change for the better.

    https://www.biography.com/people/dale-carnegie-9238769

    • PartisanZ

       /  January 24, 2018

      @Corky – “Good manners and being polite become more scarce by the year.”

      Possibly, although there may be an inverse relationship between what we call “good manners and being polite”, and simply being honest and truthful to yourself …?

      It seems passive-aggression never changes …?

      • Corky

         /  January 24, 2018

        You aren’t a hit at dinner parties, are you, Parti? Refer to Dale and find out why. Sometimes things dont need analysing. They are simple cause and effect. What you see is what you see.

      • Gezza

         /  January 24, 2018

        If you haven’t yet read How To Win Friends And Influence People PZ, I recommend you do.

        • PartisanZ

           /  January 24, 2018

          I’ve never been a hit at dinner parties nor aspired to be … I’m a space-filler … I make up the numbers … I play along like everyone else …

          Obviously you both have complete confidence in Dale Carnegie’s spurious conflation of “winning friends” with “influencing people” …

          How’s that working out for yous … ?

          • Gezza

             /  January 24, 2018

            It’s a very long time ago since I read it. I found it very interesting. In real life, especially in my working environment, I’ve found some of the principles quite useful when I remember & want to employ them. Chloe employs some of them in her video today in the way she handles the Labour government’s inadequate Bill. She influenced you.

            Time I reviewed it. I checked my bookcase before but it’s not there so either I loaned it to someone or I got it out of the Library. Can’t remember.

            So you haven’t read it?

            • PartisanZ

               /  January 24, 2018

              I would disagree that Chloe influenced me, other than being the mouthpiece for what is patently obvious … She informed me.

              I’m supporting this inadequacy because there’s nothing else to support and nothing better to support …

              Started reading Carnegie sometime donkey’s years ago and didn’t get far … it obviously didn’t befriend me and influence me to continue …

              I did some ‘selling’ courses clearly based on this stuff way back. The kind of thing where you learn to sell anyone absolutely anything by befriending and influencing them, by identifying their ‘needs’ and convincing them your product will fulfill them … overcoming obstacles … closing the deal … like selling candy to a baby … regardless of whether it rots their teeth …

      • Parti. Are you passive aggressive?

        • Conspiratoor

           /  January 24, 2018

          😂

        • PartisanZ

           /  January 24, 2018

          traveller, I dunno … perhaps I am to some extent? C obviously thinks so … in a passive aggressive sort of way …

          Are you?

          Like many behaviours I think its probably a spectral continuum we all fall somewhere along? We’re all more-or-less passive aggressive … maybe?

          Is it any worse than outright aggression, as you displayed towards The Aunties?

    • Gezza

       /  January 24, 2018

      The book has six major sections. The core principles of each section are explained and quoted from below.

      Fundamental Techniques in Handling People
      1. Don’t criticize, condemn, or complain. Human nature does not like to admit fault. When people are criticized or humiliated, they rarely respond well and will often become defensive and resent their critic. To handle people well, we must never criticize, condemn or complain because it will never result in the behavior we desire.

      2. Give honest and sincere appreciation. Appreciation is one of the most powerful tools in the world. People will rarely work at their maximum potential under criticism, but honest appreciation brings out their best. Appreciation, though, is not simple flattery, it must be sincere, meaningful and with love.

      3. Arouse in the other person an eager want. To get what we want from another person, we must forget our own perspective and begin to see things from the point of view of others. When we can combine our desires with their wants, they become eager to work with us and we can mutually achieve our objectives.

      Six Ways to Make People Like You
      1. Become genuinely interested in other people. “You can make more friends in two months by being interested in them, than in two years by making them interested in you.” The only way to make quality, lasting friendships is to learn to be genuinely interested in them and their interests.

      2. Smile. Happiness does not depend on outside circumstances, but rather on inward attitudes. Smiles are free to give and have an amazing ability to make others feel wonderful. Smile in everything that you do.

      3. Remember that a person’s name is, to that person, the sweetest and most important sound in any language. “The average person is more interested in their own name than in all the other names in the world put together.” People love their names so much that they will often donate large amounts of money just to have a building named after themselves. We can make people feel extremely valued and important by remembering their name.

      4. Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves. The easiest way to become a good conversationalist is to become a good listener. To be a good listener, we must actually care about what people have to say. Many times people don’t want an entertaining conversation partner; they just want someone who will listen to them.

      5. Talk in terms of the other person’s interest. The royal road to a person’s heart is to talk about the things he or she treasures most. If we talk to people about what they are interested in, they will feel valued and value us in return.

      6. Make the other person feel important – and do it sincerely. The golden rule is to treat other people how we would like to be treated. We love to feel important and so does everyone else. People will talk to us for hours if we allow them to talk about themselves. If we can make people feel important in a sincere and appreciative way, then we will win all the friends we could ever dream of.

      Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking
      1. The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it. Whenever we argue with someone, no matter if we win or lose the argument, we still lose. The other person will either feel humiliated or strengthened and will only seek to bolster their own position. We must try to avoid arguments whenever we can.

      2. Show respect for the other person’s opinions. Never say “You’re wrong.” We must never tell people flat out that they are wrong. It will only serve to offend them and insult their pride. No one likes to be humiliated, we must not be so blunt.

      3. If you’re wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically. Whenever we are wrong we should admit it immediately. When we fight we never get enough, but by yielding we often get more than we expected. When we admit that we are wrong people trust us and begin to sympathize with our way of thinking.

      4. Begin in a friendly way. “A drop of honey can catch more flies than a gallon of gall.” If we begin our interactions with others in a friendly way, people will be more receptive. Even if we are greatly upset, we must be friendly to influence people to our way of thinking.

      5. Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes. Do not begin by emphasizing the aspects in which we and the other person differ. Begin by emphasizing and continue emphasizing the things on which we agree. People must be started in the affirmative direction and they will often follow readily. Never tell someone they are wrong, but rather lead them where we would like them to go with questions that they will answer “yes” to.

      6. Let the other person do a great deal of the talking. People do not like listening to us boast, they enjoy doing the talking themselves. Let them rationalize and talk about the idea, because it will taste much sweeter to them in their own mouth.

      7. Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers. People inherently like ideas they come to on their own better than those that are handed to them on a platter. Ideas can best be carried out by allowing others to think they arrived at it themselves.

      8. Try honestly to see things from the other person’s point of view. Other people may often be wrong, but we cannot condemn them. We must seek to understand them. Success in dealing with people requires a sympathetic grasp of the other person’s viewpoint.

      9. Be sympathetic with the other person’s ideas and desires. People are hungering for sympathy. They want us to recognize all that they desire and feel. If we can sympathize with others, they will appreciate our side as well and will often come around to our way of thinking.

      10. Appeal to the nobler motives. Everyone likes to be glorious in their own eyes. People believe that they do things for noble and morally upright reasons. If we can appeal to others’ noble motives we can successfully convince them to follow our ideas.

      11. Dramatize your ideas. In this fast paced world, simply stating a truth isn’t enough. The truth must be made vivid, interesting, and dramatic. Television has been doing it for years. Sometimes ideas are not enough and we must dramatize them.

      12. Throw down a challenge. The thing that most motivates people is the game. Everyone desires to excel and prove their worth. If we want someone to do something, we must give them a challenge and they will often rise to meet it.

      • PartisanZ

         /  January 24, 2018

        Cheers Gezza … I don’t need to read the whole book now …

        • Gezza

           /  January 24, 2018

          The other 3 sections are also summarised in the wiki article that’s from.

        • Gezza

           /  January 24, 2018

          I would disagree that Chloe influenced me, other than being the mouthpiece for what is patently obvious

          No?

          “I’ll support it and email MPs despite the fact I strongly disagree with the separation of medical and recreational”?

          • PartisanZ

             /  January 24, 2018

            Yes …

            “I’m supporting this inadequacy because there’s nothing else to support and nothing better to support …”

            Regards the above Carnegie stuff … I do a lot of that already …

            • Gezza

               /  January 24, 2018

              So do most people. Persuasive people often do most of those things naturally I noticed. Unpersuasive people did the insult & attack thing. It’s where Gareth fucks up.

              The book’s about how to influence people rather than to manipulate them. Manipulating (or propagandising) is a bit more targeted & devious. Chloe simply wants to influence people to write to MPs to get them to support the bill.

              The things I remember most were those that helped me get along with people & persuade them to at least think about whatever it was I was advocating or needed from them.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  January 24, 2018

        Great summary, Sir Gerald. Interesting to note the things I already do as well as those I don’t.

        • Gezza

           /  January 24, 2018

          You have your good points.

        • Conspiratoor

           /  January 24, 2018

          Cheers G. A salutary reminder for me also al.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 24, 2018

            What if their name is something really embarrassing like Nebuchadnezzar or some of the bizarre names people give their children ? A Waikato boy was called Paranoyd.

            • Gezza

               /  January 24, 2018

              😳

            • Gezza

               /  January 24, 2018

              Oh. I see the remembering a person’s name bit. Well, you obviously exercise a little judgement here. Work with the name they give you or someone else does when you’re intoduced. Use common sense. If someone says “hi my parents named me paranoyd but everybody calls me corky” (or whatever) then you use the name they use. You don’t overdo this name thing – it can sound irritating or smartass if you keep mentioning it in conversation with them, obviously. Just make a point of trying to remember it & show that you do.

  3. Griff

     /  January 24, 2018

    https://futurism.com/rocket-lab-successfully-launched-electron-rocket-orbit/
    You do know that means NZ is ahead of that funny korean chappy.
    ICBM vrs low earth obit.
    NZ can hit any country in the world in less than 130 minutes with a nuke.

    • Blazer

       /  January 24, 2018

      so my suspicions about a military application…are correct..then.

      • Griff

         /  January 24, 2018

        Sarc…./
        1 We don’t have nuke capability
        2 The payload is to small to loft anything significant.
        3 Soon after such an attack hit target NZ would be a lake of smoking glass.

        • Blazer

           /  January 24, 2018

          I don’t think the N.S.A and Lockheed will keep you…informed…

    • Gezza

       /  January 24, 2018

      Still waiting to hear what the other object(s) put into orbit besides the 3 cubesats that the US military spotted were.

  4. David

     /  January 24, 2018

    I see we are signing the TPP and I was wondering where is the outrage and Kelsey and the usual motley crew. The Greens no doubt will do as they are told and keep quiet, Winston everyone knows flip flops depending on race baiting and or party funding.
    I do miss the spittle flecked loopy loop Kelsey and the way she spouts all sorts of craziness but is still the go to person. Jacinda is in charge so not surprised everything is so muted.

    • PartisanZ

       /  January 24, 2018

      Awaiting reaction … ?

      “[formerly] … it was possible that Government could be sued under ISDS provisions for screening decisions made under the Overseas Investment Act … Under negotiations that took place under the new Government, that has been removed as it has the potential to be sued by investors who have won Government contracts … The ISDS provisions will also be reviewed in three years which would be another chance for New Zealand to challenge the existence of ISDS clauses.”

      I wonder what our projected GDP growth is under CPATTP? Previously I believe it was 3 – 4% when America was included …

      With ISDS sorted out for now, and reviewable, it may no longer be worth the trouble of contesting it?

  5. Missy

     /  January 24, 2018

    The things dogs find on walks….

    And it looks like the media have lost interest in Brexit related stories…

    Though the guy who owns the dog certainly tried to get some mileage out of it all…

    And it makes national news…..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/f883743a-bada-4e0c-9014-9e3be3c1c6bf

    • Gezza

       /  January 24, 2018

      Looking forward to Kitty’s arrival & hoping for a description of the treasures she & the dog have no doubt discovered on their walkies.

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  January 24, 2018

        Har har. Or as the dog would say ‘larfarfarfarfarf !’

        We have found a mallet and a tiny Swiss Army knife-useful but not thrilling. A fossil turned up when some building was done down the street-a common one, but a nice thing to find. It was a sea snail, which seems odd in this area.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  January 24, 2018

            It needn’t have been there all the time, of course. It’s a common enough fossil as fossils go, but I don’t care. It means that I can keep it and not feel obliged to give it to a museum. There are a lot of layered rock pieces around here, but they could have come from anywhere, I can see why people find geology so interesting.

            • Gezza

               /  January 24, 2018

              Yes I like geology. I’m from Taranaki & that whole region wouldn’t exist if Taranaki & several earlier volcanos hadn’t raised it out of the sea. Taranaki has blown itself to bits & rebuilt itself 5 times. It’s quite unusual.

              And the squeezed & twisted layers of Welly’s rocks are very evident in coastal walks, in some places the layers are even perpendicular.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 25, 2018

              I remember picking up a little piece of layered rock from the drive, and thinking how marvellous-it was thousands of years old…I brought it inside and showed to my husband and a friend and said that about the thousands of years…he said casually ‘millions of years’. (He knew about these things)

              Uncle Lye (Uncle Lye Berry) has a wonderful book about rocks and fossils-how they are made, where and how old.

              Even an ordinary piece of pumice has an interesting history.

              My mother and stepfather found an oddly shaped piece of rock that looked as if someone had started carving it…it became known as ‘the artefact’. When they showed it someone who knew about such things, he said that it really was one-very old indeed-it’s now in a museum.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  January 25, 2018

              Have you seen the fossilised oysters on the Parapara near Wanganui ? They are embedded in stone and are proof that the area was once by/under the sea,

  6. Blazer

     /  January 24, 2018

    from Quora…’According to a recent research of Sexcare, The average percentage of women having a dildo is 52.53%’

  7. Kitty Catkin

     /  January 24, 2018

    I don’t doubt the appalling abuse of the children found in that house in the US, but the happy, smiling family photos are odd. The children don’t look starved. Did the parents feed them up to make the photos look all right ? too bizarre,