Men, suicide and silence

The death rate from suicide is significantly higher than for road accidents, with over 600 people per year ending their own lives in the latest statistics.

Chief Coroner releases provisional annual suicide figures

  • 606 people died by suicide in 2016/17, up from 579 the previous year and 564 the year before
  • 20-24 years old – 79
  • 25-29 years old – 64
  • 40-44 years old – 64
  • 12.64 suicide rate per 100,000 suicide – higher than last year (12.33), similar to 2010/11 (12.65)
  • 21.73 suicide rate – Māori
  • 19.36 suicide rate – men
  • 6.12 suicide rate – women

Until recently it was a silent problem – talking openly about it was taboo.

Newsroom/Victoria University: Men, suicide, and four types of silence

New research from Victoria University of Wellington reveals that a key aspect of young men’s experiences of suicide bereavement is ubiquitous silence.

In the first study of its kind, Dr Chris Bowden, who is a lecturer in Victoria’s School of Education and recently graduated with a PhD in health, found that young men aged between 17 and 25 who lost a close male friend to suicide, suffered, grieved and eventually recovered in silence.

Bowden conducted in-depth “lived experience” interviews with the young men over a period of a year. These took place as “go-alongs” or “ride-alongs” while the men were working on cars, at barbeques, during events like burnouts, and while playing PlayStation or Xbox.

His research found the men experienced four types of silence following the suicide of a close friend: personal, private, public and analytic silence.

“Early on, the men were unable to describe what they were experiencing to others. They also chose to keep quiet, be stoical, suppress and control their emotions and keep their grief private. In public and social situations, the words and actions of others and their fear of being judged as weak and vulnerable often silenced them”.

Bowden says they chose to break their silence only with those they trusted, who understood what they were going through and who “were there for them”.

“The men also sought quiet places to reflect on, analyse and make sense of their experience and how it had transformed them”.

“In order to understand their experience as it was lived by them it was important to build trust and rapport, and to understand who they were and the friends they had lost”.

“A lack of research examining young men’s experiences of suicide bereavement means that their grief may go unnoticed, be minimised, or even misunderstood”.

Bowden recommends that health professionals, families/whānau and friends learn to see, listen to and interpret the silence of men in order to better understand their experience and need for care and support.

Where to get help:

– Lifeline: 0800 543 354 (24/7), Youthline: 0800 376 633 (24/7), text free to 234 (8am-midnight) or live chat (7pm-11pm)

– Kidsline: 0800 54 37 54 (24/7; Kidsline Buddies available 4pm-9pm)- Suicide Crisis Helpline: 0508 TAUTOKO / 0508 828 865 (24/7)

– What’s Up: 0800 WHATSUP / 0800 942 8787 (1pm-10pm weekdays, 3pm-10pm weekends) or live chat (5pm-10pm)- Healthline: 0800 611 116 (24/7)

– Samaritans: 0800 726 666 (24/7)- Depression Helpline: 0800 111 757 or text free to 4202 (24/7)- If you feel you or someone you know is at immediate risk, call 111.

Leave a comment

87 Comments

  1. Pickled Possum

     /  February 12, 2018

    While youth suicide is following 85+ men are dying … time for death with dignity law to be activate and turn suicide into death with dignity.

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  February 12, 2018

      Wouldn’t that depend upon the reason for the suicide ?

      I am unconvinced that it wasn’t spoken about until recently-we never hear how recent recently was. It has been no secret when someone killed themselves as far as I can remember.

      Reply
  2. PDB

     /  February 12, 2018

    As women are relatively unaffected who cares?

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  February 12, 2018

      I have known several women who have done it. And others who have made serious attempts. The scars going up the wrist along the lines of veins are a giveaway.

      Of course, women ARE the real victims when men selfishly top themselves ! Women are ALWAYS the victims..

      Reply
  3. Blazer

     /  February 12, 2018

    Bowden is looking in the wrong direction.
    Why are people committing suicide is the..issue.

    Reply
    • PDB

       /  February 12, 2018

      Not ignoring other reasons but with the growing reliance on social media by young people expect it to continue to rise.

      Reply
      • PartisanZ

         /  February 12, 2018

        The suicide rate per 100,000 population climbed throughout the period 1986 – 1999, peaking through 1992 – 1998, coinciding with NZ’s periods of highest unemployment during our exalted time of ‘deregulation’ and ‘economic reform’ …

        I wonder if the two – unemployment and suicide – are related in any way?

        https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/data-story-overview-suicide-prevention-strategy-april2017newmap.pdf

        http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/snapshots-of-nz/nz-social-indicators/Home/Health/suicide.aspx

        https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/data-story-overview-suicide-prevention-strategy-april2017newmap.pdf

        While actual numbers are greater today due to increased population, the rate today is only about 2 per 100,000 higher than in 1948. I wonder what accounts for the difference? Why haven’t the manifold wonders of the neoliberal paradigm lessened the suicide rate?

        I would hazard a guess its because the same ‘deregulation’ and ‘reform’ has taken the broader social context or “higher meaning” out of working for that proportion of the population …? Someone should study it though …

        Reply
        • High Flying Duck

           /  February 12, 2018

          So you are positing the rise in suicide rates was a direct result of the costs of undoing the crippling debts and inefficiencies of our socialist past?
          Socialism really has a lot to answer for!

          Reply
          • PartisanZ

             /  February 12, 2018

            More like this HFD … An INCREASED suicide rate was one of the direct non-monetary costs of undoing our Democratic Social Security lifestyle – which attempted to safeguard our economy and provide full employment – in favour of corporate-capitalist globalized ‘free market’ [standing joke] ‘productivity & efficiency’ and, of course, debt reduction …

            How are those going for us d’ya’reckon? We’re apparently still woefully unproductive and inefficient – according to the Rightie owners of capital – and debt is back up where it was under Muldoon … though more of it is private …

            The chance of home ownership has been denied fully one-quarter of the population more than during the 70s … and almost every other social and economic indicator is worse … like homelessness and suicide …

            When exactly does a failed experiment achieve “failure” …?

            Reply
            • PartisanZ

               /  February 12, 2018

              I guess a good corporate-capitalist sees an increased suicide rate as kinda like collateral damage … ?

              A good person, socialist or not, maybe just socially aware or socially responsible, sees it as a sign there’s something wrong with their society … in our case with corporate-capitalism itself …

            • High Flying Duck

               /  February 12, 2018

              The changes that were made were a direct result of the democratic social security lifestyle that had the country on the brink of bankruptcy.
              Collateral damage was definitely involved. There were 8 years of significant pain as the excesses and unaffordable programs, make work Government jobs and gliding on mindsets were discarded. Self sufficiency, export led income and reliance on innovation and quality were introduced to pay our way, rather than the borrowing binge that funded the utopian lifestyle you hark back to.
              We are far better for it now.
              To ignore the problem would have made things far worse.

            • Blazer

               /  February 12, 2018

              HFD…these changes did not occur in Australia,and as you know the wage gap and GDP growth between them and us..widened.

            • High Flying Duck

               /  February 12, 2018

              Not sure what Australia’s mineral boom successes has to do with our country going broke due to protectionism?

            • Blazer

               /  February 12, 2018

              ‘ with our country going broke due to protectionism?’…Australia had and has more protectionism than NZ…so why aren’ they…broke?

    • Gezza

       /  February 12, 2018

      I agree, Blazer. I read the article & I watched the video & I couldn’t figure out what value this article and that video about his research has. I suppose it’s useful for someone to know he’s studied the way most men handle their reactions to the suicide of a close friend.

      But it doesn’t suggest they identified a need to react any differently or that they need something, some service, some different way of reacting. It’s generally in my experience a female idea men need to share & talk more about their grief or whatever reaction they have & that that somehow is better for them.

      In my experience that’s not generally true of men, we operate differently from women – although it will be for some, depending on their emotional makeup. And that applies to the loss of a partner, or the loss of good friend through cancer, car crash etc too.

      I wonder how many of them wondered how they missed the signs, whether there was anything they could have done. He never mentions that. I’ll bet a lot did.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  February 12, 2018

        I wonder how many people who totally drop someone who’s been widowed have a guilty conscience when that person kills themselves-either passively (‘forgetting’ medication, not seeking medical help for conditions exacerbated by social isolation) or actively .

        Reply
  4. Alan Wilkinson

     /  February 12, 2018

    Lack of male role models in homes and schools, poor educational outcomes followed by drugs and unemployment. Why is any of this a surprise?

    Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  February 12, 2018

      Yes … Why?

      Because all this coincides pretty much with the neoliberal experiment too …

      Reply
      • Gezza

         /  February 12, 2018

        That’s Blazer’s point, or I think it is. Here we are deciding we know why they killed themselves. Where are the studies into that?

        Reply
        • PDB

           /  February 12, 2018

          Depression – women are more likely to seek help for depression hence why they have far less suicides to men.

          Of course the causes of this depression is the heart of the matter but there are plenty of studies regarding this.

          Reply
          • PDB

             /  February 12, 2018

            To add – is the latest ‘man-bashing’ worldwide witch-hunt going to improve the problem?

            Reply
          • Gezza

             /  February 12, 2018

            In New Zealand. My point is they do an article on this guy’s research into something that doesn’t seem to be a problem, but I don’t recall reading articles on the causes of male suicides. Yes I would think the majority are depression-related, but what are the cause(s) of the depression?

            Reply
        • Gezza

           /  February 12, 2018

          @ PDB – I guess we can infer some of the causes from this, from one of PZ’s links.

          “Who is most at risk of suicide?

          People from all backgrounds can feel suicidal. Lots of people go through this.
          Someone may be at higher risk if they have:

          attempted suicide before
          been experiencing depression, bipolar disorder or another mental illness
          an addiction to alcohol, drugs or gambling
          a serious physical illness
          just started or stopped taking medication for a mental health problem
          lost a friend or family member to suicide
          been a victim of violence, bullying or sexual abuse
          a court case coming up or a recent prison sentence
          been judged, shamed or put under a lot of pressure
          no strong relationships with family, whānau, friends or community
          no sense of their own identity or purpose in life
          been through a major life change, like moving to a different country, coming out as gay or transgender, or retiring from work
          had a major loss or disappointment, like someone close to them dying, failing exams or having their refugee status declined
          recently broken up with their partner or lost custody of their children
          been struggling to find work, lost their job recently, or had serious money problems
          friends, family or people around them who don’t support who they are, like their sexuality, gender identity or other identity.”

          Reply
          • PDB

             /  February 12, 2018

            Maori have low/normal rates of suicide in Australia compared to very high rates in New Zealand – ever wonder why?

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  February 12, 2018

              I could make some assumptions. But the reasons people commit suicide across the different sex & age groups probably differ & the ultimate causes, if any, are arguable. That’s all everyone’s doing here. Arguing for their own assumptions of ultimate causes. I think there are many.

      • MaureenW

         /  February 12, 2018

        Out of interest, which neoliberal experiment are you referring to?

        Reply
        • PDB

           /  February 12, 2018

          That would be the successful one in comparison to the unsuccessful socialist one’s being used in places like Venezuela.

          Reply
          • Blazer

             /  February 12, 2018

            suicide rate in Venezuela 2.7 -1000…NZ 9.88 – 1000.

            Reply
            • Joe Bloggs

               /  February 12, 2018

              Touché

            • PDB

               /  February 12, 2018

              Apparently in Venezuela youth suicide will be down in time because as children they are dying of hunger & not making it to their teens!

              Suicide rates there are likely to be well underestimated in Venezuela as official data like the suicide rate has been covered up for some time – people are struggling to survive;

              “The Venezuelan government stopped publishing comprehensive crime data more than a decade ago, and the discrepancies between what authorities say and data released by independent organizations are extreme.

              For instance, local officials announced that 17,778 Venezuelans were victims of homicide in 2015. But the Venezuelan Violence Observatory, a nongovernmental group, estimated that there were 27,875 murders that year, which would make Venezuela’s homicide rate one of the highest in the world, at 90 killings per 100,000 residents. The group found that the rate climbed higher in 2016, to 92 per 100,000.”

              NZ’s murder rate is 0.09/100,000 or so?

              Has been the worst statistic you’ve ever produced Blazer and that takes some doing!

            • Blazer

               /  February 12, 2018

              I thought the discussion was suicide,not homicide…while you’re there what is the incarceration rate in NZ and the .U.S.

            • PDB

               /  February 12, 2018

              The key thing is since the govt fell over in Venezuela you can not rely on official figures for anything, including the suicide rate.

            • Blazer

               /  February 12, 2018

              ‘ govt fell over in Venezuela you can not rely on official figures for anything’…if that’s the case…maybe you should cease using Venezuela as an example of…anything…you don’t have reliable information,by your own …admission.

            • PDB

               /  February 12, 2018

              We have ample visual evidence & first hand reports of what is happening in Venezuela…now you are being silly.

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5374501/Mass-exodus-thousands-Venezuelans-flee-country.html

            • Blazer

               /  February 12, 2018

              I’m being silly…and you quote ..The Daily MAIL….hilarious.

            • PDB

               /  February 12, 2018

              You continue to flounder for any excuse, how about this quote then?

              “Hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans, faced with growing shortages and hyperinflation at home, have fled to neighboring Colombia, the world’s No. 2 flower grower. ”

              “The exodus of Venezuelans includes engineers, doctors and other professionals. Many have found informal work harvesting coffee, serving in restaurants and driving Uber cars.

              Now thousands have found seasonal work in the flower sector, which will send some 35,000 tonnes of produce to the United States for Feb. 14.”

              “The number of Venezuelans living in Colombia jumped 62 percent in the second half of 2017 to more than 550,000, the Colombian migration authority said last month. Less than one-fourth of those people have visas”.

              https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-colombia-valentines/fleeing-venezuelans-find-work-cutting-valentine-roses-in-colombia-idUSKBN1FS2VM

            • Blazer

               /  February 12, 2018

              quite frankly I’m interested in the topic…not your…diversions.

            • PDB

               /  February 12, 2018

              Getting beat-up like you are far better for you to make an…escape.

      • High Flying Duck

         /  February 12, 2018

        I thought the breakdown of the nuclear family was one of those social progressive things – empowerment and independence and freedoms being more important than trifling things such as parenting or modelling good behaviours.

        Reply
      • PDB

         /  February 12, 2018

        Funny how it coincides with increasing welfare dependency & the govt taking over the role of the father/provider promoted by liberals. This will get worse with policies like ‘no obligation welfare’ that the Green party are pushing.

        Reply
        • PartisanZ

           /  February 12, 2018

          It coincides, quite simply, with Rogerednomics, Ruthanasia and governments becoming managers-on-behalf of the FIIRE economy …

          Neoliberal austerity social-welfare, necessary to keep wages low and prevent popular insurrection, is responsible for what you call ‘welfare dependency’ which is actually sub-subsistence welfare depression … along with various forms of ‘crime’ to make sub-subsistence up to barely subsistence …

          I worked-out a couple of years ago that in terms of long-term youth unemployed in Northland, we were probably talking about fewer than 1100 people, many of whom would have substance, physical disability &/or mental health issues as well …

          Reply
    • Joe Bloggs

       /  February 12, 2018

      Alan, that’s all well and good … exccept the facts don’t really support your claims:

      The link below is to a study conducted by the Ministry of Health in 2005 using New Zealand Census and Mortality Study data for 20 years – so it’s clearly dated but I haven’t found anything more recent in a 5 minute search. But in the absence of more up-to-date findings at my fingertips the MoH data shows that:

      No socioeconomic or marital groups were immune to background trends in suicide rates

      Lower socioeconomic position was associated with higher suicide rates within all demographic strata and at all points in time, with the exception of education among females

      Suicide rates for men aged 18−44 years and women aged 18−24 years increased as much
      among the employed as among the unemployed

      Suicide rates were higher among more educated women aged 45−64 and 65−77 than among less educated women,

      Lack of male role models, use of drugs, etc., don’t figure.

      The authors conclude by saying that the findings do not inform us about the pathways by which marital status and socioeconomic position influence suicide risk, and that it is worth noting that no social groups were immune to background suicide trends.

      https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/suicidetrendsandsocialfactors.pdf

      We need to move beyond this naive penchant for “self-evident truths” about suicide because the reality is that “the truth” is different in every suicide, every case has its own unique causal pathway and trigger point.

      Reply
      • Joe Bloggs

         /  February 12, 2018

        so two downticks for MoH research into suicide – I invite the down-tickers to post why they down-ticked the findings on such an issue… or is it just their penchant for identity politics that’s clouding their judgement?

        Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  February 12, 2018

        Actually that study on last century data supports the risk factors I mentioned.

        Reply
    • Blazer

       /  February 12, 2018

      is that your explanation for the OBSCENE rate of farmers committing suicide in NZ…?

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  February 12, 2018

        Nope. For them I would expect social isolation and the stress of the ever-increasing regulatory obligations on small businesses imposed by bureaucrats and politicians in safe well-paid sinecures who don’t have to meet any of them.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  February 12, 2018

          Losing the family farm’s a biggie, according my farmer cousin. She said banks won’t lend to small farmers & want to foreclose.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  February 12, 2018

            The problem with Alan’s theory is that of the 22 farming-related suicides. 16 were 16 or 18* to 24 and were probably not farm-owners at that age.

            Gezza, I remember in the late 80s when my stepfather’s lawyer or accountant rang to see if he would be interested in lending money for second & third mortgages for farms-25 & 33% interest. It was a very short conversation, who would be ?

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  February 12, 2018

              * I forget which

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  February 12, 2018

              That’s Gezza’s theory, not mine.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  February 12, 2018

              No, you said that about the social isolation and regulations etc.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  February 12, 2018

              The two parent family has never been as common as people now think.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  February 12, 2018

              How does social isolation on farms not affect young adults not least by making finding a mate difficult? Young people share-milking or otherwise trying to save to buy into a farm might also experience a lot of stress and worry.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  February 12, 2018

              I didn’t say it didn’t, but they wouldn’t own a farm as teenagers.

        • Mefrostate

           /  February 12, 2018

          Outrageous claims require exorbitant amounts of evidence, so I trust you’ll now supply us with a firehose of peer reviewed work that draws a causal relationship between government regulation and suicide among farmers.

          What an absolutely ridiculous assertion.

          Reply
          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  February 12, 2018

            Not as outrageous as your claim that stress from, just as one example, the compulsion to pay computed provisional tax against unpredictable and fluctuating annual incomes has no impact. The regulatory burden on small businesses is severe and carried by the owner.

            Reply
            • Mefrostate

               /  February 12, 2018

              I made no claim, you did. Back it up or take it back.

              Honestly I’m reeling from this one. It’s absolutely disgusting to me that your campaign against regulation is so desperate that you’re even willing to use suicide like this.

              I have no idea how you can expect anyone to value your perspectives when you’ll say things like this.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  February 12, 2018

              Down-ticks from folk who know nothing about it.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  February 12, 2018

              Go boil your pompous head, Mefro. You have no idea.

            • Mefrostate

               /  February 12, 2018

              I’m always looking to improve my idea, which is why I like to ask ideologues for evidence to back up their assertions. When they fail to do so, or resort to petty insults, I lose respect for them and learn that their opinions are not worth listening to.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  February 12, 2018

              I don’t know how many NZ men are farmers or work on farms, so don’t know if 22 in a year is an over-representation or not. The number of older adult ( 25+) is very small. Not that this makes it all right, it doesn’t.

            • Mefrostate

               /  February 12, 2018

              @Kitty you might have responded to the wrong comment. This specific sub-thread is specifically dedicated to ridiculing the silly things Wilkinson is willing to say to help push his anti-regulation wheelbarrow.

  5. MaureenW

     /  February 12, 2018

    Personally I think people should be able to check-out whenever they want. Christian doctrines on suicide are largely responsible for the attitudes and voodoo’s still being expressed today. Newspapers don’t report suicide transparently and society trying to “fix” the problem, when in fact, many people who choose, not to be; simply make that choice and see it through. Who knows better, than a person who has chosen to end their own life, whether or not it was the right choice?

    Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  February 12, 2018

      As most of us aren’t of any great interest to the world, it’s not surprising that suicides are not reported as such when we die.

      Voodoo seems an odd thing to connect with NZ suicides.

      Reply
      • MaureenW

         /  February 12, 2018

        By voodoo, I was referring to the indoctrination that god would be angry and one wouldn’t go to heaven.

        Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  February 12, 2018

      @Maureen W – “Personally I think people should be able to check-out whenever they want. Christian doctrines on suicide are largely responsible for the attitudes and voodoo’s still being expressed today.”

      To my surprise I generally but don’t entirely agree with you Maureen W.

      Firstly, the numerous positive or life-affirming outcomes of services like Lifeline indicate how many especially younger people ‘cry for help’ by attempting or seriously considering suicide. They certainly don’t need encouragement to “check out” …

      Secondly, any increased acceptance of “checking out”, especially for terminally-ill people, begs questions about the availability and provision of methods of doing so …

      Presently the options are fairly limited and mostly quite ghastly. Not, for instance, to be shared with close family and friends …

      Reply
      • MaureenW

         /  February 12, 2018

        I don’t have any problem with organisations such as Lifeline for those who want to change their minds. I’m also not advocating that people need to be encouraged. Merely recognising that some prefer not-being, over being, and that should be their choice.

        Reply
  6. phantom snowflake

     /  February 12, 2018

    Here’s my 2 cents worth; originally posted 14/07/2017:

    Here’s a possible explanation for one large group of our nation’s suicides, oversimplified to keep it brief: We physically, psychologically and sexually abuse large numbers of our children. We teach our boys that above all they must be masculine and manly, and we prohibit them from processing their trauma and abuse because this would involve dealing with feelings which we have labelled as girly or feminine. Although abused males are thus put in a near-impossible position, there is, however, an “out”. We have decreed that anger is manly and masculine. So, we shouldn’t be surprised that abused males may explode outwardly in anger (e.g. assaults and rapes) or act angrily against themselves. (self-harm or suicide) Yeah I know this isn’t the whole story. I said it was oversimplified…

    Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  February 12, 2018

      Oversimplified but nonetheless exceedingly well written, honest, relevant and courageous phantom_snowflake. Thanks. Experts like Dr Gabor Mate believe it pretty much ALL stems from childhood trauma and abuse …

      I know experts who believe (and work with) a great many ‘illnesses’ like asthma have the same origins.

      I’d add one thing to one of your sentences … without subtracting anything …

      “We teach our boys that above all they must be masculine and manly, and we prohibit them from processing their trauma and abuse because this would involve dealing with feelings WE OURSELVES ARE NOT WILLING TO DEAL WITH …

      The perfect definition of a vicious cycle …

      Reply
      • phantom snowflake

         /  February 12, 2018

        Cheers PZ. Was 100% opinion, yet based on so many true stories…

        Reply
  7. Kitty Catkin

     /  February 12, 2018

    That is not Voodoo, which is an African religion and not practised here, unless it’s by a small number of people. Voodoo is definitely not part of Christianity and the idea of suicide being a sin is in no way connected with it-look up Voodoo if you don’t believe me.

    In days gone by, the verdict of suicide was generally tempered by ‘whilst of unsound mind.’

    Reply
    • MaureenW

       /  February 12, 2018

      Christianity is white mans voodoo.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  February 12, 2018

        What a specious reply and an inadequate attempt to cover up that you didn’t know what Voodoo was.

        Reply
        • MaureenW

           /  February 12, 2018

          I wasn’t attempting to cover anything up Ma’am, just using a word in the way I think fits. I’ll be sure to complete 50 lines before I’m allowed out to play.

          Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  February 12, 2018

            It doesn’t fit, there is no comparison.

            Reply
          • Kitty Catkin

             /  February 12, 2018

            There is a danger of unintelligibility if you are like Humpty-Dumpty in Alice who said that words meant what he chose that they should mean. It’s better to use words correctly rather than trying to make them mean what you want them to mean or think that they mean.

            Reply
      • Blazer

         /  February 12, 2018

        a very good analogy Maureen ,especially when you consider the statement…’religion is the opiate of the…masses’.

        Reply
  8. Chuck Bird

     /  February 12, 2018

    The Greens are more concerned about the sexually confused committing suicide than farmers because of their anti farming policies.

    Reply

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