Open Forum – Sunday

25 March 2018

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53 Comments

  1. lurcher1948

     /  March 25, 2018

    Go the CANES…WINNERS

  2. PartisanZ

     /  March 25, 2018

    Incredibly important study going on here –

    ‘Seeya Buzzy Bee, later hokey pokey: Kiwiana could change as New Zealand becomes more diverse and global’ – NZHeraldo

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12017437

    “An academic reckons stuff we call Kiwiana, from Buzzy Bees to pavlova to Swandris, could disappear within a couple of generations as New Zealand grows more diverse and further away from the closed economy of the past.”

    Shit! I didn’t think it was possible to get any further away from “the closed economy of the past”!? Isn’t New Zeal Land the examplar of economic deregulation and ‘openness’?

    “Auckland University of Technology senior lecturer in hospitality management Lindsay Neill
    is launching a nationwide research project to find out what material items Kiwis aged between 18 and 40 believe symbolize our national identity.”

    He might be in for a surprise? The current crop of Kiwiana are essentially symbols of Pakeha indigeneity developed during the deep sleep era of our cultural amnesia. Neill may find that many more Maori items, symbology and culture, rather than less, are now considered ‘Kiwi’ or ‘Kiwiana’? (Although some Maori may not approve?)

    Here’s Ani Mikaere on the subject – (following David Round’s fierce defense against adopting the Maori names Te Ika a Maui and Te Wai Pounamu) –

    “What is fascinating about this analysis … is the suggestion that the names “North Island” and “South Island” somehow represent Päkehä cultural heritage, which must be defended at all costs.

    Little wonder that Päkehä New Zealand struggles with the question of identity, seeking to create cultural icons of gumboots, black singlets, pavlova, kiwifruit and the buzzy bee toy.

    When travelling overseas, Päkehä leap forward to perform bastardised versions of the haka and “Pökarekare Ana”, and adorn themselves with Mäori pendants in an attempt to identify themselves as New Zealanders: when in Aotearoa it is often those same people who decry any assertion of Mäori language and culture as a threat to their identity.

    Their cultural insecurity appears to know no bounds. Interestingly, Bruce Jesson saw a connection between these shaky cultural foundations and the status of coloniser:

    “New Zealand had such a shallow culture that most New Zealanders knew little about their country’s history. Amnesia is not a recent development, but is part of the colonial condition.””

    I suspect many more have awoken since then …

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  March 25, 2018

      Your cultural cringe is showing again, PZ.

      • Blazer

         /  March 25, 2018

        he is identifying it ,do you find the truth…distasteful?

        • Alan Wilkinson

           /  March 25, 2018

          Pretentious tosh, B, like you lacking the fundamental human kindness that makes the world go around. In my experience there has always been plenty of it in the young expat communities.

          • Blazer

             /  March 25, 2018

            you’ve veered off topic…

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  March 25, 2018

              No, I have zeroed in on the cause rather than be distracted by your symptoms.

      • PartisanZ

         /  March 25, 2018

        I’m perfectly capable of investigating and discussing a topic like this without ‘cringing’ Alan …

        But I guess if you want to make it about me rather than the subject matter …

        Colour me surprised!

        • PartisanZ

           /  March 25, 2018

          So I’ve got “cultural cringe” and you HAVEN’T got cultural superiority complex?

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  March 25, 2018

            No, I don’t have a superiority complex. I just sit comfortably in my skin and expect others to do the same. If they can’t, I ask why.

            • PartisanZ

               /  March 25, 2018

              The world or ‘this country’ or ‘our place’ isn’t just our skin though, is it?

            • Joe Bloggs

               /  March 25, 2018

              Bugger that Alan, I’m never going to sit in your skin.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  March 25, 2018

              I’m not that scary really, Joe.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  March 25, 2018

              @PZ, the world, our country and our place are full of individuals with their own individual histories and memories and sentiments. I reject attempts to collectivise and simplify them, let alone to parcel them into guilty and oppressed packages.

            • Blazer

               /  March 25, 2018

              Al,I’ll have you know I am a kind person,really,really kind…no one is …kinder..than me.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  March 25, 2018

              Then stop being afraid to show it, B.

        • Gezza

           /  March 25, 2018

          I think you should stop confusing pakeha historical amnesia with pakeha cultural amnesia. They’re not the same thing but you’re conflating them.

          This is the same lecturerer who suggested on radio that perhaps the little gold-coloured waving cat he sees everywhere in shops owned or staffed by ethnic Chinese nowadays is kiwiana.

          It will be interesting to see what he finds out. I’d certainly expect to see more prominence is given by younger kiwis to Maori cultural symbols & icons than just the tiki at this point in our history.

          • PartisanZ

             /  March 25, 2018

            I conflate ‘medicinal’ and ‘recreational’ cannabis too Gezza … and for very good reason … because there are other forms of ‘pain’ than the purely physical …

            Indeed, there might be such a thing as cultural pain? Historical pain?

            You accuse me of conflating pakeha historical and cultural amnesia.

            I ask: How can they possibly be separated?

            • Gezza

               /  March 25, 2018

              The idea of Pakeha cultural pain is something Ani has invented, PZ. It’s a not actually real. Possibly you feel it, but if you do it’s probably because you’re suggestible.

              The difference between historical amnesia & cultural amnesia is with historical amnesia is our first Pakeha ancestors’ history is forgotten, & in the 2nd our culture is forgotten.

              Pakeha people of today may well be learning more about the history of their settlement in New Zealand, & conflict with Maori during the process, than we knew as kids – as we should – but Pakeha culture hasn’t been forgotten. We’ve built our own in this country. It’s dynamic & it’s still evolving.

              The reason for that is our ancestors didn’t migrate in family or tribal groups and & came here in large numbers & were mobile & settled everywhere. So we’re not an extended/interconnected tribe-based culture. Our customs, language, and legal system are derived from Britain because of the Treaty & the predominance of British people who settled here.

              On that ‘own culture’ point, we aren’t alone in having separated from our ancestral origins, but most of us can trace where our ancestors came from. Nobody seems to know for certain where Hawaiiki is, or what that culture was.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  March 25, 2018

              @G, you cannot visit Rarotonga without realising it is most certainly a part of Hawaiiki.

            • Gezza

               /  March 25, 2018

              Well, when we were there they claimed the great fleet departed from Rarotonga, but from memory some locals we spoke to also believed those who departed originally came from somewhere else. Tahiti maybe. I’ve forgotten the name of the harbour / beach location the fleet departed from according to Cook Island lore. We used to drive past it into town. Can you remember?

            • Corky

               /  March 25, 2018

              The Mandela Effect. Are you guys on the same timeline as me? Or each other?

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  March 25, 2018

              Muri lagoon outlet is where the Takitimu canoe is said to have left from.

            • Gezza

               /  March 25, 2018

              Ngatangiia Harbour

              http://raglan.net.nz/2015/09/10/kaumatua-visit-historic-waka-sites/

              The Cook Island Maori language is so similar to NZ Maori it certainly suggests Cook Island origins, but I don’t know where Cook Island mythology claims their origins are. They must have settled these Islands from somewhere else themselves. Historical & cultural amnesia I think.

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  March 25, 2018

              Yep, the deep water outlet at the northern end of Muri lagoon on the south east of Rarotonga:
              https://mapcarta.com/20416928/Map

    • sorethumb

       /  March 25, 2018

      When travelling overseas, Päkehä leap forward to perform bastardised versions of the haka and “Pökarekare Ana”, and adorn themselves with Mäori pendants in an attempt to identify themselves as New Zealanders: when in Aotearoa it is often those same people who decry any assertion of Mäori language and culture as a threat to their identity.
      …….
      The first part is a straw man the second shows up Kim Hill: Why don’t you like Te Reo Don?”

    • sorethumb

       /  March 25, 2018

      Little wonder that Päkehä New Zealand struggles with the question of identity

      Dr Rawiri Taonui

      Don Brash’s claim that Maori are no longer indigenous because there are few, if any, full-blooded Maori left is nothing but old-fashioned colonial racism in new-age disguise.

      While whakapapa or descent is a prerequisite for identity, the exclusive application of the stockman’s blood quantum in this way is deeply offensive. In colonial times the quantum doctrine, skin colour, and weird things such as head shape, the size of the penis and female buttocks were used to position dark skinned peoples along an evolutionary continuum between animals and Europeans. Black, brown and yellow were inferior and evolving toward whiteness.
      http://tumeke.blogspot.co.nz/2006/10/maori-blood.html

  3. Corky

     /  March 25, 2018

    From the impossible to believe files:

    ‘WARRIORS ARE AT THE TOP OF THEIR COMPETITION LADDER.’

  4. lurcher1948

     /  March 25, 2018

    How can you tell when an Australian is cheating at sport
    When they are…playing

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  March 25, 2018

      I was going to say only an Aussie could not be embarrassed at their latest effort. But then I realised that playing fair is really just a British notion that the rest of the world never understood.

      • Blazer

         /  March 25, 2018

        bally…colonials…ideas above their station…wot!

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  March 25, 2018

      LURCHER !!!!

      • lurcher1948

         /  March 25, 2018

        Whats up Kitty Catkin,why are you shouting at me…

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  March 25, 2018

          I didn’t mean to, it was meant to be in italics…but they didn’t work. Lurch-errrr !!!

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  March 25, 2018

            Oh. they did that time. I meant to imply that you were being a wicked cynic 😀

            Needless to say that the underarm bowling was brought up…again….in 100 years, they will still be having that rubbed in ! Serve ’em right.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  March 25, 2018

              Ear rubs for old Velvet-ears and Jessie !

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  March 25, 2018

      Thank you, Lurcher. It shouldn’t have been a surprise, but one never really gets used to these things.

      73 since the last (major) * school shooting ! I wonder how many children (not teenagers yet) have been killed…and how many adults.

      * several minor ones with only a small number (2) killed, as I remember ir

      • Corky

         /  March 25, 2018

        America- Population: 320 million people (2014)

        Total estimated small arms: 280 million. Does not include other types of weapons that also number in the millions.

        Kind of puts things in perspective , doesn’t it. Especially when you consider all the circumstances surrounding those guns deaths.

        • Gezza

           /  March 25, 2018

          You need to get more recent data than 2014 I reckon. I heard or read that gun sales spike after every mass shooting in the US so the number of guns in the hands of the population is likely in excess of 280 million now. The principal reason there is so much gun crime in the US is there are so many guns around & they’re so easy to get. Thanks largely to the NRA feeding the popular paranoia & their bought Congressional representatives.

          • David

             /  March 25, 2018

            “The principal reason there is so much gun crime in the US is there are so many guns around & they’re so easy to get.”

            That rather flies in the face of the fact that the number of guns in the US has increased steadily for 30 years, and gun crime has been falling for 30 years.

            The rate of homicide by firearms has fallen from 6.6/100.,000 in 1980 to around 3.5/100,000 today.

          • Gezza

             /  March 25, 2018

            Good. Still lots of gun crime though, isn’t it? How do those gun crime rates compare to New Zealand & Australia per capita?

            • David

               /  March 25, 2018

              NZ is roughly 0.1/100,000.

              The US has the lowest firearm murder rate in the Americas, with the exception of Canada, which is 2.0/100,000

              The overall violent crime rate in the US is also lower than in the UK and Australia,

            • David

               /  March 25, 2018

              Just to add firearm numbers for comparison;

              The US has 101 guns per 100 people, NZ has 30 per 100 people.

              At the other extreme, Venezuela has just 10 firearms for every 100 people, but a murder rate over 60/100,000.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  March 25, 2018

          Not really.

          • Kitty Catkin

             /  March 25, 2018

            ??? That wasn’t meant to go there, but I don’t know now where it WAS meant to go.

            • Gezza

               /  March 25, 2018

              Well you’re ahead on upticks for it as at 5.21pm so I’d just let it go & call it a win.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  March 25, 2018

              I can only think that there were a lot of replies somewhere and mine kept going down.

              The Air NZ hoohah is on…people don’t seem to realise that airlines can’t keep operating at a loss just to suit a few passengers like the one who goes regularly from Kapiti to Auckland and thence to the UK.

  5. sorethumb

     /  March 25, 2018

    In reality, human beings evolved to have ethnic identity and ethnocentric cooperation. This is the real basis of socialism as a political or economic form of political organisation within a modern nation state.

    Multiculturalism and multi-ethnic mass immigration will undermine and destroy a society that has a strong level of social and ethnic cohesion with democratic “socialism” in the non-Marxist sense (that is, a welfare state, generous social security, universal health care, and interventionist government policies to promote the common social and economic well-being of the community).

    The modern left is too stupid and deranged to understand that (1) ethnic nationalism must be the basis of progressive liberalism, old-fashioned Social Democracy, or democratic socialism, and that (2) the Cult of Diversity is, ultimately, a death sentence for economic and social progressivism or socialism that many on the Left support.
    http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.co.nz/2018/02/the-catastrophic-failure-of.html