Open Forum – Thursday

3 May 2018

Forum

This post is open to anyone to comment on any topic that isn’t spam, illegal or offensive. All Your NZ posts are open but this one is for you to raise topics that interest you. 

If providing opinions on or summaries of other information also provide a link to that information. Bloggers are welcome to summarise and link to their posts.

Comments worth more exposure may be repeated as posts.Comments from other forums can be repeated here, cut and paste is fine.

Your NZ is a mostly political and social issues blog but not limited to that, and views from anywhere on the political spectrum are welcome. Some ground rules:

  • If possible support arguments, news, points or opinions with links to sources and facts.
  • Please don’t post anything illegal, potentially defamatory or abusive.

FIRST TIME COMMENTERS: Due to abuse by a few first comments under any ID will park in moderation until released (as soon as possible but it can sometimes take a while).

Sometimes comments will go into moderation or spam automatically due to mistyped ID, too many links (>4), or trigger text or other at risk criteria.

Free speech is an important principle here but some people who might pose a risk to the site will have to keep going through moderation due to abuses by a small number of malicious people.

Next Post
Leave a comment

58 Comments

  1. David

     /  May 3, 2018

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/103576054/us-steel-tariff-snub-flies-in-face-of-positive-relationship

    Comments about someone being orange and being outraged at being compared to them and general personal comments so you look cool in front of your mates aint that smart, lets just be grateful its a smallish export to the US. Lets also hope she gets that she runs all of NZ even the bits where people get their hands dirty for a living.

    Reply
    • lurcher1948

       /  May 3, 2018

      Whose”she”?i presume you are talking about our PM Jacinda Adern

      Reply
    • NOEL

       /  May 3, 2018

      Steel in NZ is made by an Australian company who can export its product from Australia without tarriff . Anyone got a spare Made in Australia stamp for Glenbrook?

      Reply
    • PDB

       /  May 3, 2018

      Reply
      • Traveller

         /  May 3, 2018

        Call a man orange and loudly proclaim in Vogue USA that “Nobody marched when I got elected” isn’t in the “How to win friends and influence people” handbook
        #arderndiplomacy

        Reply
        • Blazer

           /  May 3, 2018

          typical…kiss arse ,kowtow,prostrate yourself,sacrifice your ideals,be unprincipled ..and you will become..prosperous.

          Reply
  2. Blazer

     /  May 3, 2018

    ‘even the bits where people get their hands dirty for a living.’…..like filthy ,fraudulant bankers,and peddlars of …’dirty politics’.

    Reply
    • A general warning to anyone here – attempts to peddle dirty politics (smears or insinuations without evidence) – will not be tolerated. the above comment is borderline, repeats of anything like that will be over the line.

      Reply
  3. lurcher1948

     /  May 3, 2018

    I don’t know if this is borderline but a political commenter has pointed the finger at the rightwng NZME on AM this morning after an attack article on the PMs partner by DHC was a fishing expedition for reactions.

    Reply
  4. Blazer

     /  May 3, 2018

    Yes Jason Ede did have an office two doors down from the P.M in the Beehive.His job was merely to reply to John Key’s…fan mail ,)

    Reply
  5. lurcher1948

     /  May 3, 2018

    Sent an email this morning to the PM suggesting she bring our troops home, that will make worldwide news as the coalition of the willing has to appear strong, and it would wind up the right wing gloaters on a nearby att right attack blog.If you the (USA) want to hurt our exports you DONT NEED OUR TROOPS,just saying

    Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  May 3, 2018

      This I believe
      Rudi Dutschke has proposed the strategy of the long march through the institutions: working against the established institutions while working within them, but not simply by ‘boring from within,’ rather by ‘doing the job,’ learning how to program and read computers, how to teach at all levels of education, how to use the mass media, how to organize production.

      Our troops should be in our institutions as counter academics to balance the left.

      Reply
    • Gezza

       /  May 3, 2018

      Cool. Report back on any response? Will you do a tv interview if requested?

      Reply
    • Kitty Catkin

       /  May 3, 2018

      Lurch, that moron who said that slavery was a choice was Kanye West, and he is being rubbished for saying it. Serve him right.

      The damned fool is saying that his own ancestors chose to be slaves, which would suprise them if they heard it.

      Reply
      • Kitty Catkin

         /  May 3, 2018

        I mean, if it was a choice, his ancestors were among the mugs who chose it…if one is to believe that anyone would do so. Work for someone for no wages, have any wages that you earn away from the owner’s place paid to your owner,have no civil rights, be sold like a dog at the whim of the owner…that sounds like a great choice to make as a lifestyle ! They must have been queuing up,

        Reply
      • Gezza

         /  May 3, 2018

        Well, to be honest, although I think he might be a bit of a dork in some ways, he made it clear in a segment on 1ewes that what he is saying is that he doesn’t believe blacks should be claiming their situation today is caused because 400 years ago their parents were slaves. That he was saying if they think they are still slaves that’ll trap them in that mindset.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  May 3, 2018

          Of course that’s been jumped on and gone down like a lead balloon with other some other blacks who are reinterpreting what he said into what they say he said. And to be equally fair he’s filthy rich so it’s a bit like Trump lecturing some Mexican peasant on how he pulled himself up from nothing with only 12 million from his dad.

          Reply
        • Kitty Catkin

           /  May 3, 2018

          I wonder if he’s backpedalling, I read part of what he said, and he did say that if slavery went on for 400 years that it must have been a choice,

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  May 3, 2018

            Well I don’t think he’s backpedalling. I took it from I saw him saying that what he meant is what he’s now having to explain more slowly. But he is certainly smarting and feeling the heat apparently.

            Reply
            • Kitty Catkin

               /  May 4, 2018

              Silly bighead.

            • Gezza

               /  May 4, 2018

              Christ. That’s a spectacular fall in my ratings. Yesterday I was an Oracle. 😕

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  May 3, 2018

          I have just played it, and he did say that if people were slaves for 400 years, it sounds like a choice. He says a lot of other twaddle, like that he represents blacks…

          Reply
          • Gezza

             /  May 3, 2018

            Well, he does. He represents a group of blacks who have made a lot of money off other blacks with what some consider to be ghetto music. And no doubt he has inspired many to try and replicate what he did. And no doubt his view is if he did it others can. Other wealthy and successful blacks have said similar things and other wealthy and successful white people have said similar things to poor white people because that’s what wealthy and successful people believe. And what some poor people believe. And some of them make it. And some of them don’t.

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  May 3, 2018

              This is just my opinion of course. I am open to reading the views of others. I don’t claim to be an oracle although I have been unofficially awarded that honorary title recently.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  May 4, 2018

              I find it conceited when someone claims to represent an entire group of people….I bet that thousands of black Americans are saying ‘You don’t represent ME, mate !’

        • sorethumb

           /  May 4, 2018

          That’s what Candice Owen said: “it wasn’t you. It was your Grandparents”

          Reply
  6. sorethumb

     /  May 3, 2018

    I’m reading Recalling Aotearoa: Indigenous Politics and Ethnic Relations in New Zealand. By Augie Fleras and Paul Spoonley. Oxford University Press. Auckland, 1999

    It is described as “comprehensive and the writing accessible to a wide audience” by one reviewer. I would disagree; it makes no sense unless you accept the precepts of post colonial theory/post modernism.

    Andrew Sharp calls it a “post-colonialist meditation on ethnic politics” and “The overall plan of the book is clear enough too, though at times obscured by the current jargon of post-modern sociologese ” plus “the book has a moral tendency and purpose, though sometimes the prescriptive points are disguised as conceptual or factual ones, or simply imprecations to recognise the realities of practical politics” (hiding an agenda) ; “Such a background is asserted rather than defended; and it is probable it cannot be defended in the authors’ own terms, which are perspectival and relativist, and ill-equipped to deal with truth claims.”

    But where they can damn the benefits of ’civilisation’ with faint praise, they do. Like ’race’, they almost always put ’civilisation’ in quotation marks, as a rather unfortunate human construction.
    It might be said that a book designed to change our ways of thinking need take little notice of such liberal and legalistic beliefs, predominant though they are, and that the point is not to understand the world but to ethnicise it. If the world (and our part of it) is to be ethnicised and indigenised though, some very serious moral questions need to be approached from that side of the equation, and they are not. Here are a few. First, why do the first possessors of a territory have rights in and over it? Just quoting the authority of the United Nations or of certain Maori won’t do as reasons for believing it; other authorities may be quoted to deny those rights. Second, if they do, is there any mechanism by which they can lose those rights? Third, if first possessors have rights and there were many Maori peoples in possession, how can Maori as a whole have ’inherent, collective’ rights? Fourth, where there are disputes among indigenous ’peoples’ as to the location and the scope of their rangatiratanga, according to what process of adjudication and on what principles can anyone decide on the disputes? If the only method of adjudication is agreement between the disputants and the principles are simply those they agree on, and if there is no agreement, what then? Fifth, if anyone disagrees with anyone else, and if it is either judged in his or her own cause or is to be judged only according to the rules of the (different) groups to which they are allied, then what? This is the intellectual territory where the much-maligned concepts of supreme political authority and legal sovereignty, to which have much longer histories than the authors attribute to them, operate.
    In the light of what is good about liberal, universal citizenship and constitutionalism; in
    the light also of the serious practical and theoretical incoherence of discourse of rangatiratanga versus sovereignty, it is in my view better not to talk the way Fleras and Spoonley not only describe us doing, but clearly wish us to. We may of course have no choice; but then, as they would join me in insisting, might is not right. All in all, this is a good book for getting debate going.

    Andrew Sharp
    University of Auckland

    Reply
      • sorethumb

         /  May 3, 2018

        Reviewed by Simone Drichel:
        “While I find myself in general agreement with the authors’ call for bi-nationalism, as a logical consequence of conflicting messages of kawanatanga and rangatiratanga in the Treaty, I reject their easy acceptance of essentialism as an unproblematic part of that bi-nationalism when they say:
        The rationale behind bi-nationalism reflects an essentialist reading of diversity – that is, each group of people is fundamental [sic] different, and these primordial (‘essential’) differences constitute the basis for entitlement and engagement.
        (246)
        I do not agree that it is necessary to re-introduce ‘essentialism’ into the discussion. In fact, I think it is dangerous, because it adds fuel to the fire of those who love engaging in ‘authenticity talk’ to establish that there are no ‘real’ or ‘full-blooded’ Maori left in New Zealand anyway, and that consequently nobody can be entitled to anything simply on the grounds of ‘being Maori’. The authors should have made clear that it is a strategic essentialism that underlies a commitment to bi-nationalism. Qualifying the essentialism as ‘strategic’ makes explicit that the Maori nation is constructed as an imagined community with the aim of wrenching power from the ‘mainstream’, while at the same time avoiding the ‘authenticity trap’. Here, as earlier, the book could have benefited from a more thorough engagement with postcolonial theories. This would have allowed the authors to avoid promoting highly problematical terms as ‘essentialism’. It might also have led them to explore the (productive?) tension between, on the one hand, their own post(-)colonial politics of binationalism, which ultimately lead to a renewed emphasis on “binary cultural politics” (98), and postcolonial theories, on the other, which generally set out to deconstruct such binary thinking.”
        https://ojs.victoria.ac.nz/kotare/article/view/696/507

        Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  May 3, 2018

      “Secondly, the book has a moral tendency and purpose, though sometimes the prescriptive
      points are disguised as conceptual or factual ones, or simply imprecations to recognise the realities of practical politics. As a moral background it sets out to propose, that of all the possible understandings of our history, the best is one which begins with the colonisation by the British of another people’s land. Further, the most morally valuable events since then have been those of Maori resistance to Crown sovereignty in the name of tino rangatiratanga, together with those recent events (both in practical politics and in people’s minds) which are able to be expressed as part of a history of continued de-colonisation, the tide of which continues to rise, and which the reader is urged both to recognise and to swim with. All other events and thoughts tend to be dismissed as self-seeking, obtuse and insensitive. Such a background is asserted rather than defended; and it is probable it cannot be defended in the authors’ own terms, which are perspectival and relativist, and ill-equipped to deal with truth claims.
      Against this background, the authors’ more precise prescription is that Aotearoa/New
      Zealand, should-recognising (and ’recalling’) the facts of past and present-remodel itself as
      both a bicultural and a multicultural society. It should also re-constitute itself as a bi-national
      polity in which Maori, as the indigenous nation of the land, become true partners with Pakeha
      ’at the level of official languages, national images and symbols, prevailing agendas, and
      institutional frameworks’. Such a partnership should not, though, detract from ’multiculturalism in providing due recognition of ethnicity in New Zealand’. The process of change, the authors warn, will not be easy because of ’resistance from vested interests and established agendas’; and a state of ’uncertainty and expediency is likely to persist until such time as conventional thinking accepts ’recalling’ partnership between two consenting peoples, both of whom are sovereign in their own right, yet inextricably interlocked as partners in jointly exploring post-sovereign possibilities’. The book is, in post-modern parlance, an ’intervention’ in the cultural politics of our country.
      http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/003231870005200114

      Reply
  7. sorethumb

     /  May 3, 2018

    Switch by the left
    “Thus, the original protest led by prominent soixante-huitard Daniel Cohn-Bendit had been for an end to the prohibition on male students entering the dormitories of the women at the University of Paris in Nanterres. A Marxist and a Christian, Cohn-Bendit believed that sexual oppression was a symbol of political and spiritual oppression. In a stunning reversal, we now have student activists across the West demanding universities regulate and police relations between men and women, a switch noted with disbelief by Camille Paglia and other veterans of ‘60s activism. Cohn-Bendit, meanwhile, is safely ensconced in the EU Parliament, leading a group seeking to convert Europe into a single federated state.”
    http://quillette.com/2018/05/02/legacy-soixante-huitards/

    Makes me wonder if in the future bi natinal/culturalism re-evolves into (Western) civilisation?

    Reply
  8. PartisanZ

     /  May 3, 2018

    Shit me days! It is a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG march!

    Reply
    • sorethumb

       /  May 3, 2018

      It’s happened:
      Race Relations Commissioner Dame Susan Devoy has objected to a Dunedin man’s claims that supporters of te reo Māori are “boring bigots”.

      “Anyone who complains about te reo Māori being used and celebrated in this country need to get one thing straight: this is New Zealand. Aotearoa New Zealand – so get used to it,” Devoy said.
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/99218710/this-is-new-zealand-get-used-to-it-dame-susan-devoy

      Reply
      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  May 3, 2018

        We are used to boring bigots. There are quite a lot of them around.

        Reply
        • Gezza

           /  May 3, 2018

          I certainly enjoy boring the bigots.

          Reply
          • Trevors_elbow

             /  May 3, 2018

            Not just bugots are bored by your oh Oracle of North Wellington

            Reply
            • Gezza

               /  May 3, 2018

              Thanks. What were you trying to say?

            • Gezza

               /  May 3, 2018

              Not sure if you’d be interested trev but one of my dad’s occasional criticisms of someone he didn’t think much of was that they didn’t know their arse from their elbow. Sometimes I think there’s not actually any difference.

            • phantom snowflake

               /  May 3, 2018

              Slam dunk for The Oracle!

            • Gezza

               /  May 3, 2018

              Just had a quick search of today’s threads, snowy. Seems to be trev’s singular contribution for today. Bit of targeting there by the looks.

            • phantom snowflake

               /  May 3, 2018

              I had my turn but sadly it was deleted before I got to read it.

            • Gezza

               /  May 3, 2018

              I feel your pain.

  9. PDB

     /  May 3, 2018

    Worth a read…

    Reply
    • PartisanZ

       /  May 4, 2018

      ” … a bad solution to a non-existent problem”

      That’s a very good description for a great many of our laws!

      Reply
  10. lurcher1948

     /  May 3, 2018

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/103596847/security-guard-dies-after-alleged-assault-at-south-auckland-supermarket
    So another worker left home and never returned from his place of work, listening to the rightwing host Andrew Dickens on NZME this rightwinger screeched(ITS ALL JACINDAS FAULT) and i thought how feral and THICK the poor loser national party supporters are.So its all Jacinders fault The coward puncher is 17 years old,SIR KEY came into power when this thug was 7.5 years old so all the behavior he learned,was from Key and national, them Bill English took the thug under nationals and Bill Englishes wing, The JUDGE who gave the THUG bail came under Sir Key and nationals rule, SO YOU THICK RIGHTWINGERS.. HOW DID OUR PM CAUSE IT, look at 9 years of mismanagement under national

    Reply
    • High Flying Duck

       /  May 3, 2018

      On behalf of Mike Hosking – Thanks for listening Lurch!

      “Newstalk ZB tops commercial radio ratings, Mike Hosking retains talkback crown for ninth straight year”

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12044263

      Reply
    • lurcher1948

       /  May 3, 2018

      SORRY Andrew Dickens the right wing host DIDNT screech it’s all Jacindas fault, it was a thick rightwing talker who rang him up,sorry Dickens fanclub NOT

      Reply
    • Traveller

       /  May 3, 2018

      “SIR KEY came into power when this thug was 7.5 years old so all the behavior he learned,was from Key and national, them Bill English took the thug under nationals and Bill Englishes wing, The JUDGE who gave the THUG bail came under Sir Key and nationals rule, SO YOU THICK RIGHTWINGERS.. HOW DID OUR PM CAUSE IT, look at 9 years of mismanagement under national”

      Have you gone completely crazy Lurch?

      He learned his behaviour from his family and peer groups. Granted it’s been a weak system that didn’t put him in stocks or send him to the colonies…wait.

      Reply
  11. Gezza

     /  May 3, 2018

    Question 6 today was interesting. Truly pathetic persistent attempts by Todd McClay to blame David Parker for Trump’s petty intransigence in not granting NZ an exemption from his incomprehensibly evolving steel tarriff policy. Batted away with ease.

    Reply
  12. sorethumb

     /  May 3, 2018

    Homogenous: The Political Affiliations of Elite Liberal Arts College Faculty

    https://www.nas.org/articles/homogenous_political_affiliations_of_elite_liberal

    Reply
    • Gezza

       /  May 3, 2018

      How many registered Republicans are there in NZ?

      Reply
  13. sorethumb

     /  May 3, 2018

    Reply

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

w

Connecting to %s