Expert Group announced for ‘overhaul of the welfare system’

An overhaul of the welfare system was included in the Labour-Green confidence and supply agreement:

Fair Society

10. Overhaul the welfare system, ensure access to entitlements, remove excessive sanctions and review Working For Families so that everyone has a standard of living and income that enables them to live in dignity and participate in their communities, and lifts children and their families out of poverty.

‘Overhaul’ sounds like the Government is expecting major change. I think we can assume few if any beneficiaries will be worse off as a result of any changes, so this could be expensive to implement.

One aim in particular is contentious – “remove excessive sanctions”. Some say that removing ‘punishments’ is essential to be fair, while others fear a no questions asked welfare system, effectively providing a choice for some, will increase the number on welfare considerably.

Yesterday the Government announced an expert advisory group.

Expert Group established to provide independent advice on welfare system improvements

Minister for Social Development, Hon Carmel Sepuloni, has today announced the formation of an expert advisory group to support the overhaul of the welfare system.

“This Government is committed to overhauling the welfare system to ensure it is accessible and fair for all New Zealanders,” Carmel Sepuloni said.

“To support the overhaul of the welfare system” sounds like the experts are required to advise an overhaul. What if they decide that tweaks would be better? Are the compelled to support an overhaul?

“The Welfare Expert Advisory Group has been asked to undertake a broad-ranging review of the welfare system. It will deliver advice to the Government on ways to ensure people have an adequate income and standard of living, are treated with respect, can live in dignity, and are able to participate meaningfully in their communities.

A broad-ranging review of the welfare system is a good idea if it is able to recommend anything the Group sees as appropriate.

“Areas that the Welfare Expert Advisory Group has been asked to focus on range from considering the overall purpose of the system, through to specific recommendations on the current obligations and sanctions regime.

“The welfare system touches the lives of New Zealanders from all walks of life. I am pleased that the Welfare Expert Advisory Group members themselves come from a diverse range of backgrounds and experience, including but not limited to Māori, Pacific, disabled, and young people.

“The Welfare Expert Advisory Group will deliver its advice to the Government in February 2019. I am looking forward to receiving the Group’s recommendations.”

Minister Tracey Martin said the working group would be a great support to the much needed overhaul of the welfare system.

“Having a range of experienced perspectives outside of government contributing to the Government’s vision in this sector is crucial to getting it right and delivering better outcomes for New Zealanders.”

The perspectives of the group are largely social orientated. Having people with experience in social services is a good thing, as long as that is balanced with what is practical and within a possible budget. There is no indication whether the group is required to consider budgets and what might be ‘affordable’ reform.

The group with (abbreviated) biographies:

CHAIR – Professor Cynthia (Cindy) Kiro (Ngapuhi, Ngati Kahu, Ngati Hine):

Having focussed on Education for the past five years, Professor Kiro also worked in Public Health and Children’s Advocacy for many years. She has extensive experience working in roles to improve outcomes for the New Zealand population. Professor Cindy Kiro is Director of the Starpath Project and also ‘Te Tumu’ – responsible for Māori/indigenous education in the Faculty of Education at the University of Auckland, where she has worked for the last three years.

Professor Innes Asher…

…is a Paediatrician, with vast experience of children and families interacting with the welfare system, and the broader determinants of well-being of children and families. Professor Asher is a committee member and health spokesperson for the Child Poverty Action Group.

Kay Brereton…

…is an experienced advocate for people within the welfare system. She is currently employed as a senior advocate at the Beneficiaries and Unwaged Workers Trust. She has extensive experience working directly with Work and Income clients assisting them to access their full and correct benefit entitlement, and to access their statutory review and appeal rights.

Dr Huhana Hickey (Ngāti Tahinga, Tainui, Ngai Tai)…

…has a long standing interest in the human rights of people from marginal backgrounds and the consequences of discrimination and social oppression. Dr Hickey currently sits on the NZ Human Rights Review Tribunal and is the Chair of the Auckland Council Disability Strategic Advisory Panel. As the recipient of a main benefit, Dr Hickey brings lived experience of the welfare system.

Professor Tracey McIntosh…

…is the Head of Department for Sociology at the University of Auckland and has conducted extensive research in the field of sociology and Māori and Pacific studies. Professor McIntosh advocates for sociology that supports and reflects issues that concern Māori communities. Professor McIntosh also served as the co-chair of the Children’s Commissioner’s Expert Advisory Group on Solutions to Child Poverty.

Dr Ganesh Nana…

…is currently the Chief Economist at BERL, having joined the company in 1998 as a Senior Economist. Dr Nana’s work is often related to the Māori economy, regional New Zealand and its economic development, and education and workforce training plans and programmes.

Labour have used BERL to cost their campaign policies, so Nana will be familiar with their policies and their financial inclinations. There are both advantages and disadvantages to this.

Phil O’Reilly…

…has developed long-term working relationships at all levels in the business community as a previous Chief Executive of BusinessNZ. He chaired the Green Growth Advisory Group and his membership of public and private advisory boards and committee appointments has spanned academia, research and development, business, labour and social development, and manufacturing and trade.

Robert Reid

…has over 40 years’ experience in trade unions and in community employment development.  Much of Robert’s work has been with disadvantaged groups and has included work with Maori, Pacific Peoples and migrant communities. Mr Reid is currently Honorary President of FIRST Union.

Trevor McGlinchey…

…is currently the Executive Officer for the New Zealand Council of Christian Social Services. In 1986 Trevor started the Te Mahi o Waitaki Trust in Oamaru, this kaupapa Māori Trust developed and operated numerous social enterprises and community initiatives. In his community roles Trevor chairs Moeraki Ltd, a marae based charitable company, and Te Ana Whakairo Ltd a social enterprise based on Māori Tourism.

Latayvia Tualasea Tautai

…is a young Pacific leader from Auckland. She is currently a second-year university student, studying on a University of Auckland Pacific Excellence scholarship towards conjoint Law and Arts Degrees, majoring in Pacific Studies and Political Studies. She has lived experience of the welfare system, growing up in a household with her mother receiving main benefits.

Charles Waldegrave…

…is the founder of the Family Centre 1979 and the Family Centre Social Policy Research Unit 1991. Mr. Waldegrave co-leads the New Zealand Poverty Measurement Project. He has led or jointly led research, evaluation, service and teaching contracts with multiple government agencies. He has written many research articles and specialises in social policy regarding youth, ageing people, and poverty, among others.

The challenge will be to advise on what is good reform but presumably without an open chequebook available.

While the Group largely appears to have been selected based on their advocacy for far better systems of providing welfare, there is some risk for the Government.

If the Group makes expensive recommendations the Government may have to prune things back to fit within future budgets with competing pressures from other big budget things like housing, education and health.

I can see no indication of when any reform may be implemented. The Government may try to fit changes in this term, or they may decide to put welfare reform alongside tax reform (another Group is currently working on that) to the electorate for the general election in 2020.

113 Comments

  1. Alan Wilkinson

     /  May 29, 2018

    Very hard to see that group not making expensive recommendations. Put that and the tax working group side by side and the outcome is inevitable.

  2. Corky

     /  May 29, 2018

    They say you shouldn’t judge a book by its cover. Looking at the makeup of this advisory group I’ve committed that cardinal sin. My judgment is thus:

    1- It’s a great time to be a beanie.

    2- Taxpayers must generate more income to pay for benefit top-ups and rising welfare dependents.

    3- Labour should look forward to more votes provided their propaganda aimed at beanies regarding the perils of National gaining power again is successful.

    4- The 2020 budget will be a BOOMER for beanies..

    • David

       /  May 29, 2018

      Trouble being they cant afford such largese after state sector wage rounds of between 9 and 16%.

      • Corky

         /  May 29, 2018

        And that’s why the next National government will be starting from scratch again. No surplus. Tanking economy. And a burgeoning state sector filled with overpaid nobodies.

        • Gezza

           /  May 29, 2018

          Just saying

          • Corky

             /  May 29, 2018

            I prefer Beanies. That’s how the lower class pronounce the word (s).

            But your nitpicking is noted.

            • Gezza

               /  May 29, 2018

              Landlords on the left.

            • Gezza

               /  May 29, 2018

              PS: I’ve given you a downtick for humourlessness.

            • phantom snowflake

               /  May 29, 2018

              No, I’ve never pronounced it that way.

            • Corky

               /  May 29, 2018

              I wouldn’t expect you to. I live in the real world.

            • phantom snowflake

               /  May 29, 2018

              @CORKY: So I get an upgrade to Middle or Upper Class? Cheers for that!

            • Corky

               /  May 29, 2018

              No, thankyou.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  May 29, 2018

              The lower class say beanie.

              Corky says beanie.

              Ergo…..

            • Corky

               /  May 29, 2018

              And Kitty repeats.

  3. David

     /  May 29, 2018

    That looks like the make up of a lobby group not an expert group.
    Sepuloni is taking a hell of a risk as when they meet there is a groupthink risk that they think its lotto time and go crazy with recommendations and then its time for an election and 95% of voters thinks the ideas batshit mad.

    • PDB

       /  May 29, 2018

      The Turei incident clearly showed what the general public in large thinks about obligation-free welfare – especially now when businesses are crying out for labour and unemployment is so low.

      So-called ‘punishments’ are only basic obligations the govt expects when handing out taxpayer money to those who need it. This farce of a review will only ensure that being on a benefit is more attractive, more people are dependent on benefits for longer, more people are attracted to how easy benefits are to get, and in turn Labour’s support base grows.

    • Blazer

       /  May 29, 2018

      experts are a dime a dozen…even you…can be..one.

  4. Gezza

     /  May 29, 2018

    Areas that the Welfare Expert Advisory Group has been asked to focus on range from considering the overall purpose of the system, through to specific recommendations on the current obligations and sanctions regime.

    It’s almost buried in the rest of the verbiage but for me that is a key – maybe THE key – element & I’ll be interested to see what this Werkinggruppe’s conclusion is.

    That, and the affordability of any proposed new system. Taxpayers have to fund the system, but to be fair no doubt many taxpayers for a variety of reasons end up on welfare due to circumstances.

    It would be good to see some statistical profiles of beneficiaries too. Someone with 9 kids all born on a benefit & no working partner is getting something seriously wrong. But I haven’t a clue how big a problem that is.

    People who, however, decide to wait to have children until they know they can afford to food, clothe, educate & house them resent paying for the children whose parents don’t – and that is NOT simply driven by a lack of compassion or social responsibility. In fact they think they are the ones demonstrating social responsibility.

    Hopefully the working group will show plenty of joined-up thinking with the other reviews that will have an impact on things like improving educational & employment outcomes for those currently languishing on benefits inter-generationally.

    Something that concerns me a bit is how & whether so many of these working groups are going to be co-ordinated by central government so that they don’t end up all going down their own little tracks & ultimately their reports wind up just gathering dust on shelves – like so bloody many others have in the past.

  5. PartisanZ

     /  May 29, 2018

    @PDB – ” … especially now when businesses are crying out for labour and unemployment is so low.”

    So, leaving aside Superannuitants – [can I do that?] – the problem isn’t “the unemployed” or a rising number of working-age beneficiaries overall … as the graphs below clearly show NEITHER is the case …

    http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/snapshots-of-nz/nz-progress-indicators/Home/Economic/unemployment-rate.aspx

    https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/latest-quarterly-results/all-main-benefits.html

    Clearly, “being on a benefit ISN’T more attractive, more people are NOT dependent on benefits for longer, [and] more people are NOT attracted to how easy benefits are to get”

    The evidence, the facts, the data, the stats do not support your claims PDB … not even slightly … not even obliquely …

    Your jaundiced, emotive, prejudiced claims are based on nothing more than your personal perception of beneficiaries … who I imagine you assume are automatically lazy, indolent freeloaders, criminals and society’s ‘trash’ … wildly at odds with the reality in all but a minuscule number of cases … [like the minuscule number of corporate criminals at the other end of the inequality scale]

    You, Corky and the rest tar all your “beanies” with the same brush.

    What your comments say to me is: I am unspeakably ignorant, insensitive and malicious.

    • Gerrit

       /  May 29, 2018

      Problem is that people who have proudly ripped off the system (looking at you Metiria Turei)
      as indolent freeloaders set a train of thought in the voting public that disparages ALL beneficiaries.

      So excuse us whilst we take a jaundiced view of the welfare system whilst we see examples like Turei on open display. I think we have an excuse to “paint beneficiaries with the same brush” as an unrepentant Turei has set us an example of what not to like in our welfare system..

      Especially when we get out of bed at 6.30 to go and work, to pay the taxes that enable my nonworking neighbours to remain snugly warm in their beds

      Sure we like the safety net provided for ALL New Zealanders to catch us and help push us back into respectability and work, but for many the lifestyle of not working and contributing nothing to the tradeable economy is omnipotent.

      Now when we look at the figures for people on benefits, in the inks supplied, we see a downward slope as you suggest. But please don’t insult our intelligence to read into a minor minus variation of 0.4% in the 10% of the population receiving a main benefit as a sign that New Zealander’s are weaning themselves of welfare.

      A slight drop in the number of working-age (18 to 64 years old) people receiving a main benefit (278,236 down to 273,387) of just 1.7% shows that we have a serious number of people not looking for or even attempting work.

      Have a look at the employment rate in New Zealand (64%) . Painfully shy of Icelands 85% and equal with the likes of Portugal, Poland and France.

      Therein lies the problem, not enough people working but somehow I don’t think this welfare expert group will see a way to get people into work..

      http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/snapshots-of-nz/nz-social-indicators/Home/Labour%20market/employment.aspx

      • Blazer

         /  May 29, 2018

        chump change compared to white collar charlatans who usually go …unpunished.
        ‘Problem is that people who have proudly ripped off the system (looking at you Metiria Turei)’

        • Gerrit

           /  May 29, 2018

          What punishment did Metiria Turei get? None. She got off scot free except for her intangibly valued reputation.

          • Zedd

             /  May 29, 2018

            this post is about: review of the Govt. MSD policies.. not ANCIENT History; dood

      • phantom snowflake

         /  May 29, 2018

        enable my nonworking neighbours to remain snugly warm in their beds
        Jeezus! Are you actually jealous of beneficiaries?? Were you to include a few in your social circle you would be cured of that in a hurry!

        • Gerrit

           /  May 29, 2018

          Have a few in my immediate family and close friends circle.

          Not a cure. Just another reality reinforcement that i’m right.

          • phantom snowflake

             /  May 29, 2018

            There’s a loud beeping from the vicinity of my BS meter.

            • PartisanZ

               /  May 29, 2018

              Mine short-curcuited …!!! Pfffffffffffffffttt …

            • PDB

               /  May 29, 2018

              Snowflake: “There’s a loud beeping from the vicinity of my BS meter.’

              With you in close vicinity it wouldn’t ever stop going off would it? Good chance the same reason PZ’s blew up…

            • phantom snowflake

               /  May 29, 2018

              A more plausible explanation is that it’s prescient and was alerting me to your imminent arrival.

      • PartisanZ

         /  May 29, 2018

        @Gerrit – ” … as indolent freeloaders set a train of thought in the voting public that disparages ALL beneficiaries.”

        That’s interesting … Yet corporate criminals (freeloaders, charlatans, fraudsters and swindlers) manage NOT to disparage all corporate executives, business people or entrepreneurs …

        What’s the difference?

        YOU. Your attitude towards them … “disparages ALL beneficiaries” in your mind alone.

        You see A SINGLE example like Turei on display Gerrit. Prominent yes, but nonetheless singular …

        “Especially when we get out of bed at 6.30 to go and work, to pay the taxes that enable my nonworking neighbours to remain snugly warm in their beds”

        Okay, so you resent working … Would you give it up if the benefit levels were high enough?

        “Iceland’s unemployment rate has declined consistently since the crisis, with 4.8% of the labour force being unemployed as of June 2012, compared to 6% in 2011 and 8.1% in 2010 … Despite low tax rates, agricultural assistance is the highest among OECD countries and a potential impediment to structural change. Also, health care and education spending have relatively poor returns by OECD measures … According to Bloomberg, Iceland is on the trajectory of 2% unemployment as a result of crisis-management decisions made back in 2008, including allowing the banks to fail.” – Wiki

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland#Economy

        Iceland has a population of about 335,000 people. I wonder if that has anything to do with high employment rates? Or could it be that half of retirement-age Icelanders are still working?

        http://www.nordiclabourjournal.org/i-fokus/in-focus-2012/age-is-no-barrier/article.2012-02-07.3297216816

        Not a bad thing … just ‘relevant’ … which ignorant, insensitive and malicious simply ISN’T.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  May 29, 2018

      The problem is the future direction, not the past. National had a policy of getting beneficiaries into jobs. This group will certainly have a policy of getting beneficiaries into money.

      • Blazer

         /  May 29, 2018

        National has a policy of making getting benefits very hard work,no matter how deserving.Case in point,time off work in hospital and home recovery…no sickness benefit cover,only job seekers allowance,even if you have a job..to go..to.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  May 29, 2018

          The problem with Metiria Turei’s case would be proving it.

  6. Zedd

     /  May 29, 2018

    you cant have such a change of Govt. without changes to MSD.. to a more compassionate model & not just continuation of the tory rhetoric “Get back to work ya bludgers !”

    • Kitty Catkin

       /  May 29, 2018

      Who has been heard saying that ?

      • phantom snowflake

         /  May 29, 2018

        ‘Twas Corky’s talkback ‘whanau’.

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  May 29, 2018

          Silly me for not seeing that for myself !

      • Zedd

         /  May 29, 2018

        @kck
        likely most folks who have been in winz office in recent years.. (or something similar) 😦

        • Kitty Catkin

           /  May 29, 2018

          You think that people who go into WINZ would say that to each other ???

  7. Corky

     /  May 29, 2018

    I’ll say the same to you, Parti ,as I did with Snowflake. I live in the real world. i don’t rely on stats and graphs compiled by middle class bureaucrats from other stats compiled by their peers.

    I wonder if the stats would be the same if Labour had been government for the last ten years? I think three years this time around should be enough to put your opinion to bed.

    And , yes .I have a very jaundiced view about many beanies.

    • Gezza

       /  May 29, 2018

      Last line – why?

      • Corky

         /  May 29, 2018

        Practical experience..time, time and time again. In fact, I will be away soon for three weeks. . I’m on holiday for starters, then I’m back to discuss, or help, with decontamination of two HNZ homes our group has bought. Four other houses down the same street are boarded up because of ( possible) P contamination.

        • Gezza

           /  May 29, 2018

          Ok – if that’s true, fair enuf, I’d feel the same way. But why do you always post as though this is typical of ALL beneficiaries – and what kind of areas are these houses in?

          • Conspiratoor

             /  May 29, 2018

            Anonymous blogging is a wonderful thing G. A man, or woman can be anything he/she wants to be at any point in time. Witness the number of self made millionaires on this blog with the time to bash away at their keyboards all day …but no time to enjoy their ‘wealth’

            • Gezza

               /  May 29, 2018

              Bloody slum landlords I expect c. Wouldn’t be a Trump Tower or a Mar-A-Largo between them! Maybe a Mar-A-Lager. And that’d be being generous. 😠

        • Gezza

           /  May 29, 2018

          I presume you saw item one on 1ewes at 6 tonite, Corks?

          P contamination massively overstated – mould is a far greater danger to people living in houses P has been smoked in. Not even any point in testing for meth in most cases – unless the house was used as a clan lab – Sir Peter Gluckman.

          https://yournz.org/2018/05/29/open-forum-tuesday-185/#comment-279271

      • Kitty Catkin

         /  May 29, 2018

        Rhetorical question, I presume. Why WOULD anyone do that ?

    • phantom snowflake

       /  May 29, 2018

      In your “Real World” there are lots of “Social Conservative Folk” coz that’s what you hear on Talkback Radio. Funny AF!

      • Corky

         /  May 29, 2018

        I’m afraid I don’t get the joke. Lets wait for election time and see whats happening with welfare.

        I see talkback ( Leighton) is talking about Tommy Robinson’s arrest. MSM wont touch the story. Probably because they wouldn’t know what happens in the real world….just like you.

        • Gezza

           /  May 29, 2018

          Tommy Robinson sounds like a complicated dude with the attitudes of a typical soccer ‘ooligan though, to be fair.

        • phantom snowflake

           /  May 29, 2018

          There’s been great coverage of “Tommy Robinson” (aka Stephen Yaxley-Lennon aka Andrew McMaster aka Paul Harris) by both your buddy Cameron and The NZ National Front so you are well catered for.
          http://www.nationalfront.org.nz/?tag=tommy-robinson

          • Corky

             /  May 29, 2018

            Yep, you won’t get more mainstream than them.

            • phantom snowflake

               /  May 29, 2018

              Sheesh Corky, do I have to spell it out?! The plight of “Tommy Robinson” is only of interest to NZ’s far-right lunatic fringe, not the “mainstream’!

            • Corky

               /  May 29, 2018

              I’m afraid you’ve misspelt. The story is gaining traction across the globe. And is now gaining the attention of some MSM journalists. One English Lord( MP?) has threatened to sue the Homes Secretary should Tommy come to harm in jail ( a jail comprising 60% Muslim inmates). That’s saying something..eh!

              Maybe you should leave Robinson’s personality and politics out of it and concentrate on the case.You may have forgotten Aunty tried her best to close the media down, in certain circumstances, in New Zealand.

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3277502/First-UK-jail-half-inmates-Muslim-pressured-convert-Islamic-protection-racket.html

            • phantom snowflake

               /  May 29, 2018

              I’m afraid I can’t keep up. First you are bleating that “MSM won’t touch the story”, and then you’re trumpeting that it is gaining the attention of the MSM. WTF relevance has “Aunty” got to this story?? And great to see you quoting such a credible source as The Daily Mail HAHA!

            • Gezza

               /  May 29, 2018

              You may have forgotten Aunty tried her best to close the media down, in certain circumstances, in New Zealand.

              Got carried away there Corky. Codswallop.

              Turkey, Hong Kong, Egypt, China, Saudi Arabia, Trump – there are some examples of what closing the media down, or trying to, looks like.

          • sorethumb

             /  May 29, 2018

    • Blazer

       /  May 29, 2018

      ‘ I live in the real world’…you have acknowledged in the past this so called ‘real’ world is just a…fantasy,a magic show.

      • Corky

         /  May 29, 2018

        And you have repeated the same question over and over.

        • Blazer

           /  May 29, 2018

          because it never gets…answered.

          • Corky

             /  May 29, 2018

            To your warped worldview.

            • Blazer

               /  May 29, 2018

              this woman seems to have the same view…

            • Gezza

               /  May 29, 2018

              Looks quite spunky. I might have a listen.

            • Gezza

               /  May 29, 2018

              Who’s got it in for spunky women? 😡

          • Gezza

             /  May 29, 2018

            Naomi Prins – very interesting speaker Blazer. Will watch more of her addresses I think. Some interesting observations on what the Chinese are trying to do to escape the clutches of the US-global-dominant banking system, & why Trump & Wall Street are so keen to cripple that attempt.

    • PartisanZ

       /  May 29, 2018

      Which “real world” is that again Corky?

      Oh yeah … the magic world of numbers … of economics where only the numbers matter …

      The inverse-alchemy of turning human ‘gold’ into economic lead.

      • Corky

         /  May 29, 2018

        ”Which “real world” is that again Corky?”

        The world anyone who’s worked with beneficiaries knows you have no knowledge of…except through a keyboard search..and a middleclass socialist window.

    • PartisanZ

       /  May 29, 2018

      That’s where I got one of my links from … and simultaneously restored my faith in StatsNZ.

      • Gezza

         /  May 29, 2018

        Yes, it’s way better, richer data than I was expecting, PZ. Big ups to some part of MSD as well. But why do we never hear or see any of this data analysed & used in the piss-poor msm reporting or magazine-style 15 minute women’s Sunday women’s mag-type “docos” on issues of social welfare & unemployment?

        • PartisanZ

           /  May 29, 2018

          Because an informed populace is a dangerously non-compliant populace Gezza … A truly well informed populace is arguably a decent, compassionate one, and therefore an ‘Enterprise Socialist’ one …?

          That’s why politicians never refer to this information in any depth at their policy announcements either … aside from TOP …

          Instead they go for the emotional throat or balls …

          The Corkies, PDBs and Gerrits of this world don’t want ‘bread and circuses’ … They lust for blood, guts and gore in the Colesseum …

          • PDB

             /  May 29, 2018

            As usual PZ your post makes no sense considering I was talking about what WILL happen to beneficiary figures once the new govt/new working group install their ideas, not current figures without those changes implemented.

            Talk about a strawman argument.

            • PartisanZ

               /  May 29, 2018

              I disagree, you were talking about how bad welfare (by which you mean unemployed ‘dole bludgers’) was under National, despite the high likelihood you are a National supporter, and how the Welfare Expert Group can inevitably only make it worse …

            • PDB

               /  May 29, 2018

              PZ: “you were talking about how bad welfare (by which you mean unemployed ‘dole bludgers’) was under National”

              Which of course I didn’t say – maybe lie enough times and it will come true?

  8. PartisanZ

     /  May 29, 2018

    A group stacked with experts … lining their pockets … to investigate an issue brim-full of ordinary folk …

    Two of the experts seem to have direct experience of “main benefit”, including one who must also be getting paid for positions on tribunals and Council advisory groups? A Superannuitant perhaps?

    I wonder if we’ll hear from any of the ordinary folk?

    Will we find out about age groups, churn rates and all the other relevant information?

    This ‘fact sheet’ seems to indicate some things ,,, ie that 20,000 or nearly 15% of Job Seekers ‘turn over’ quarterly due to finding employment …

    https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/latest-quarterly-results/grants-and-cancels.html

    The situation is nothing like as bad as Righties think it is and use for their ideological ends.

    • PartisanZ

       /  May 29, 2018

      Indeed, those 20,000 Job Seekers may represent the ‘bottom end’ of Aotearoa New Zealand’s growing Precariat … which Righties’ economic ideology … CREATED!

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  May 29, 2018

      You mean it’s not as bad as the Lefties claim for their ideological ends. Beneficiaries are finding jobs, on your numbers more than half per year.

      • PartisanZ

         /  May 29, 2018

        Point me to these Lefty ‘claims’ Alan …?

        “Beneficiaries are finding jobs … ” Yes, it appears so …

        But what these jobs are like in terms of pay and conditions is another matter entirely, again a construct of Rightie economic ideology …

        … and what the individual ‘repeat’ or churn rate through Job Seeker is is also unknown … 10,000 or more of each 20,000 could be the same people?

        My point is: It’s a good thing to investigate, along with its obverse ‘taxation’, and if it can’t be done better than it is now we are drawing a long bow when we call ourselves “civilized” …

        • PDB

           /  May 29, 2018

          You seem to have lost it PZ – produce any current statistics you want as that was achieved under a National govt using the current system that the new working group is likely to change. You could have saved yourself a whole lot of nonsense writing if you had actually bothered to read properly.

          Looking at the future and the heavy left-wing bias of that working group they are likely to raise benefits and also reduce the obligations people currently have when claiming a benefit. The question is whether that will be a good or bad thing and what that will do to the number of beneficiaries.

          • PartisanZ

             /  May 29, 2018

            On the contrary PDB … Your whole argument has been about how the Welfare Experts Group will inevitably make a bad situation worse …

            I’ve been pointing out how it might make a reasonably good situation better …

            • PDB

               /  May 29, 2018

              PZ: “make a bad situation worse …”

              Here is my full post from above, where do I say we have a bad situation NOW?

              “The Turei incident clearly showed what the general public in large thinks about obligation-free welfare – especially now when businesses are crying out for labour and unemployment is so low.

              So-called ‘punishments’ are only basic obligations the govt expects when handing out taxpayer money to those who need it. This farce of a review will only ensure that being on a benefit is more attractive, more people are dependent on benefits for longer, more people are attracted to how easy benefits are to get, and in turn Labour’s support base grows.”

              First paragraph says the general public don’t like no obligation welfare & currently we need more people from somewhere to meet labour demands, the 2nd talks about what may happen in the future.

              You’re a liar.

  9. PartisanZ

     /  May 29, 2018

    A little column-piece in the Northland Age this morning strikes me as relevant …

    The two-edged sword of employment … or swings and roundabouts …?

    “Dwindling domestic student numbers have been blamed for a $3 million deficit at NorthTec, despite last year’s withdrawal of courses that had not attracted sufficient enrolments … [with] Kerikeri and Rawene campuses “rested” this year … Chief Executive Mark Ewen saying the continued fall in [student] numbers appeared to be the result of fewer school leavers and HIGHER LEVELS OF EMPLOYMENT … “

    • PDB

       /  May 29, 2018

      It has ZERO relevance at all to what might happen if the new govt overhauls the welfare system – I think today you may have power chucked all over yourself.

      • Gezza

         /  May 29, 2018

        Would saved me a ‘let me read that again’ if you’d put a hyphen between ‘power’ & ‘chucked’. Just saying (speaking of which, where’s Lurcher?).

        • PDB

           /  May 29, 2018

          Would’ve saved me rereading yours if you had put ‘would’ve’.

      • PartisanZ

         /  May 29, 2018

        During 34+ years of Rogerednomics, Ruthanasia & ‘Government on Behalf’, successive regimes have created, enhanced and embellished the ‘Higher Education Industry’ to absorb more and more ‘unemployed’ – the ever increasing human flotsam generated by abdication of social responsibility …

        Now these same ‘Corporeducation’* institutions are curtailing their activities as employment reaches its neoliberal ceiling … about 4% unemployed … (and rightly so curtailing, since these Entities are more Corporate than Educational) …

        The well-paid academic and administrative Corporeducationalists lose their jobs … and the employment levels are taken up [and more] by fruit picking or industricasual** neo-peasants … ?

        Something in it just strikes me as being relevant …

        2 new words! Up to #157

        • PDB

           /  May 29, 2018

          Pity it’s the same old words from you. Go and check out the guest post put up today by Roger Douglas on Kiwiblog and then come back on here and repeat yourself again.

          • PartisanZ

             /  May 29, 2018

            I’ll leave it to Harriet PDB –

            “I’ll hold your coat while you tell the womenfolk!

            Young males and females will have to put off indefinitely having their own family if employers PERSIST in paying people low wages and the government tightens welfare! It costs lots of money to raise a family as you say, and tax dollars shouldn’t be used to raise other people’s children like with WFF – but it is SOCIALISM that you will get if employers keep paying people fuck all.
            As someone said here the other day – kiwi employers expect the competition to train their future staff!
            The country is fucked!”

            And later after attacks by a couple of Righties –

            “So why do so many people vote for money and ‘free’ services if they are paid so well – or are kiwis generally people who are greedy and like to rip off the taxpayer and public?

            Why should people live to your standards anyway, since when have they been the best? – besides they live in the so called ‘modern economy’ why shouldn’t they be paid well?”

          • PartisanZ

             /  May 29, 2018

            Oh FFS … Over at KiwiBlog they’re arguing about SIR Rogered’s statement like “Each family should provide for themselves! What a novel concept!” (Scott) …

            Each isolated family …. Why not “each isolated individual”?

            A return to the days of Elders locked in the cellar – or consigned to a shed in the garden – and family Lunatics locked in the attic …

            “With courage, an open mind, and a set of principles to guide us we can protect and promote both the freedoms and welfare of all New Zealanders.

            Those principles would look something like this—Each generation would pay for itself”

            Define … ‘generation’?

            Oh well, that’s that theory debunked …

  10. patupaiarehe

     /  May 29, 2018

    Having read a few of the comments above, I’m hardly surprised. I should be disappointed, but having grown used to the cynicism expressed by most of my erstwhile employers, regarding the youth of today, I really can’t argue. This country doesn’t need a ‘welfare overhaul’, it requires an ‘attitude overhaul’.
    As an employee, a well paying job is not a right, it is something that is earned through a combination of experience & training. It involves turning up for work on time every day, and learning from those who have been doing it for longer than you have.If you are paid FA, it’s because you know FA. Appreciate that you have been given the opportunity to do better, and grasp that opportunity. Those above you will recognise this.
    As an employer, one needs to realise that your staff are your most valuable asset. One also needs to appreciate that if one is not involved in training someone, one has no right to complain about not being able to find skilled workers…

    • Blazer

       /  May 29, 2018

      ‘If you are paid FA, it’s because you know FA’…yet time and again we see that remuneration levels do not align with competence.
      Recent case Fletchers…grossly overpaid ,underperformers…have destroyed 2.7 BILLION worth of shareholders equity over the last decade.
      Many,many more examples…

      • patupaiarehe

         /  May 29, 2018

        I cant comment on executive level matters. What i can say tho’, is that a youth with the right attitude can do very well. It’s just a shame that many don’t have the right attitude-.

        • PDB

           /  May 29, 2018

          With you Patu – good workers are like specks of gold amongst a whole lot of rocks and do very well in the current system as good employees value them and reward them for their hard work (unless of course they are unionised which make rewarding their efforts a lot harder as good workers are essentially used by the unions to subsidise the wages of the poorest performers).

          Decent staff are getting harder and harder to find, anyone saying otherwise is sadly out of touch of the workplace of today.

          • Blazer

             /  May 29, 2018

            sound like they’re as rare as good…employers!

            • PDB

               /  May 29, 2018

              The large % of employers in this country are good employers – legislation, health and safety requirements and beefed up employee rights ensure that most are that way.

              Sadly the requirements put onto employees are close to zero to the point moving even the worst worker on is a major cost in time and money.

            • Blazer

               /  May 29, 2018

              I hear today that 100’s of thousands of workers have been underpaid holiday…entitlements.

            • PartisanZ

               /  May 29, 2018

              Ah … but not ALL employers …?

              That means some of them are BAD!

              This should reflect on ALL employers, as it does on ALL welfare beneficiaries and, as we’ve discovered from you Righties during the course of the day, ALL workers …

            • PDB

               /  May 29, 2018

              Did the employers do that on purpose or is the act not fit for purpose and difficult to fix? Get back to me once you find out…

            • Blazer

               /  May 29, 2018

              its a question of competence….not many overpaid….ever.

            • patupaiarehe

               /  May 29, 2018

              Sigh…Blazer, you’ve tempted me to argue, and since I have little better to do, game on!
              Have you ever heard the comparison of the workplace vs the jungle? The tree full of monkeys argument? Allow me to relate it…
              The monkey at the top of the tree, looks down and sees a lot of smiling faces.
              The monkey at the bottom looks up, and sees a tree full of arseholes.
              The monkey in the middle, gets shat on by everyone above him, and is regarded as an arsehole by everyone below..
              I suspect you are smiling ATM Blazer. You’re welcome, arsehole 😉

            • PDB

               /  May 29, 2018

              That is disingenuous of you – the major issue with the holiday’s act results in either the correct pay or being underpaid.

            • PDB

               /  May 29, 2018

              PZ: “Ah … but not ALL employers …?”

              No one is prefect – except for Griff…

            • patupaiarehe

               /  May 29, 2018

              I get paid several dollars more for a holiday, than I do for an 8 hour day. Perhaps this is because I do a lot of overtime, or perhaps it is my employers subtly hinting me… 😉

          • PartisanZ

             /  May 29, 2018

            @PDB – “Decent staff are getting harder and harder to find, anyone saying otherwise is attempting to deconstruct my ideological picture of the workplace of today …

            I know places that are flooded with potential “decent staff” and the employer screws it up … takes on the wrong ones or destroys the right ones’ decency …

            • PDB

               /  May 29, 2018

              PZ: “I know places that are flooded with potential “decent staff” and the employer screws it up … takes on the wrong ones or destroys the right ones’ decency …”

              As I’ve shown you to be a liar on this very page why would anyone believe you when you say that?

              This is just the very tip of a worsening problem – the next generation of kids coming through think work is optional, money grows on trees & playing ‘Fortnite’ is a future career.

            • PartisanZ

               /  May 29, 2018

              Isn’t it a great and wonderful socio-economic environment WE have created for them PDB!?

              Our generation did this. To blame the kids is the height of ignorance, insensitivity and maliciousness … or what might better be described as emotional and ethical disconnection …

            • PDB

               /  May 29, 2018

              Speak for yourself as left-wing nonsense is mainly to blame…..which leads us right back around to the overhaul of the welfare system which is likely to give more money to people with less obligations. The circle is complete.

  1. Expert Group announced for ‘overhaul of the welfare system’ — Your NZ – NZ Conservative Coalition