“Whiteness”, decolonisation and dumping capitalism

Max Harris writes about Racism and White Defensiveness in Aotearoa: A Pākehā Perspective

More accurately that should be ‘one Pākehā’s perspective’.

I want to talk about an aspect of whiteness in Aotearoa New Zealand. And when I say “whiteness”, I’m not just talking about skin colour. I’m talking about the power, privilege, and patterns of thinking associated with white people.

I think that there are a wide variety of ‘patterns of thinking associated with white people’ – whatever ‘white people’ means.

Whiteness is connected to economic power and class — and is probably least understood by those it privileges. Most white people seem blind to its existence, while most non-white people are not.

Sweeping generalisations. Harris speaks for himself, fair enough, but not for ‘white people’. He doesn’t back up his ‘most white people’ and ‘most non-white people’ claims.

I think for those of us who identify as Pākehā, or grew up in Pākehā-dominant spaces, there’s a special responsibility to strive to be aware of our own advantages in Aotearoa New Zealand.

While I have no problems with the term Pākehā I don’t identify as Pākehā. I identify as a New Zealander. I don’t think I have any special responsibilities based on someone else’s pigeon holing of me.

White advantage is maintained in many ways: through intergenerational wealth, discretionary decision-making, and everyday racism.

Some people may take advantage of racial privileges – and not just ‘white people’.

One aspect of how racism is talked about in Aotearoa is white defensiveness in response to discussions of racism. By white defensiveness, I mean an anxiety, closing-down, and insecurity among white people and white-dominated institutions when racism is raised.

Perhaps some people feel some of those things. I don’t.

I see at least four types of white defensiveness.

First, there’s Denial: kneejerk responses that attempt to deny that there is racism, rather than taking claims seriously or considering its roots.

The second type of white defensiveness is Diversion. This is where, in instances in which facts about racism or colonisation are raised, the conversation is derailed through a claim that Māori themselves are guilty of some other wrong.

A third form of defensiveness is Detriment-centring. That’s where there’s a focus on the disadvantages faced by Māori, but without any acknowledgment of the advantages or protective factors which flow from being Pākehā.

The fourth form of defensiveness is the demand to Move on. This is where defensive demands are made for discussions about racism to end.

Let’s move on this discussion.

This discussion isn’t meant to demonise white people, or Pākehā, either. It’s about being honest and open about our advantages — and thinking about how to dismantle the system that produces them.

Dismantle the system?

Pākehā people can, and should, remain proud of our heritage and roots. But we also need to be aware of the injustices of the past and present, and how we may have contributed to them.

One very valid question is how all this relates to class and New Zealand’s system of capitalism.

Dismantle the system of capitalism?

We need to talk more about class in this country — to speak back to another lamentable and longstanding myth that we are somehow class-free. Fortunately, a new generation of activists in New Zealand is breathing fresh life into that conversation.

I think that class in a new Zealand perspective is a largely different different thing – I wouldn’t call it an issue.

There’s a need to support Māori-led efforts at decolonisation: the process of understanding and undoing the negative effects of colonisation, and recentring indigenous views.

Decolonisation? Harris doesn’t explain what that might entail.

We all must also push for a different economic order, given the way that the twin forces of capitalism and colonisation have amplified the power of whiteness.

He associates capitalism with whiteness – it is not just white people around the world who have benefited substantially from capitalism, and who continue to benefit from it, despite it’s shortcomings.

Harris seems to be suggesting dismantling ‘colonisation’ and capitalism.

Dismantling systems of oppression, including those based on race and class, is important for the powerful as well as the powerless.

While this is an interesting discussion there is a major omission.

Dismantling colonisation, capitalism and systems of oppression are a big deal.

But Harris makes no attempt to explain how this dismantling would happen, who would decide what is dismantled and how, nor what would take their place.

Many things in our world and our country are imperfect, but dismantling your house, or dismantling your country, must be retrograde steps unless you have somewhere else you can live.

It’s all very well to pile on ‘white people’ guilt, and to condemn colonisation and capitalism, but without any attempt at viable alternatives it seems to be a half cocked argument.

Like our form of democracy both colonisation and capitalism have some crap aspects, but they remain worse than everything but all the alternatives – unless perhaps Harris can suggest something better.

73 Comments

  1. artcroft

     /  June 11, 2018

    How can you remain proud of your heritage but want to dismantle it? To dismantle your culture and heritage is to announce there is no good thing in them. They must go? Which begs the question was there ever any good in it? If so where did it go?

  2. Blazer

     /  June 11, 2018

    address the shortcomings of the Capitalist system and other benefits will follow.Military might and money creation are at the root of power.

    • artcroft

       /  June 11, 2018

      Credit is the root of modern society. Without credit we’d all be roaming the forest lands plundering roots and leaves from Robert.

      • PartisanZ

         /  June 11, 2018

        I’m pretty sure its “debt” that’s at the root of money creation presently Arty …

        There are a number of possible forms of credit.

      • Blazer

         /  June 11, 2018

        And who organises this ‘credit’ and ..allocates it?

    • Warwick Francis

       /  June 11, 2018

      What a crock. Have you ever heard of The Red Army and The People’s Liberation Army and their exploits in places like Eastern Europe and Tibet ?

  3. Ray

     /  June 11, 2018

    You tend to get the impression with young Max Harris if we made him leader for life everything would be ok.
    It is worth remembering how that has worked in the past.
    Great for the leader, not so good or worse for everybody else.

    I like this quote from Danyl Mclauchlan when he reviewed Max’s book.
    “Harris’s agenda contains enough reform to keep at least the next five left-wing governments busy. Now that we have it all set down in one place, maybe the left can stop talking about What Must To Be Done and start thinking about How To Actually Do It. I wish someone young and gifted and brilliant with world enough and time could go figure that out. That’d be a smart thing to do.”
    No one said Capitalism was perfect but it gives better results than any other system.

  4. Blazer

     /  June 11, 2018

    ‘No one said Capitalism was perfect but it gives better results than any other system.’

    The critique of that statement is, that since the transformation from basic feudalism to Capitalism in the 18th century,it is the only way that most western countries have experienced.
    To compare it with Communism as a stark opposite is quite wrong.

    Socialism is the middle way ,and there is alot to learn from some Scandinavian countries.
    Capitalism has many shades and is given credit for a myriad of things that it did not instigate.

    Communist China is a global powerhouse at this point in time but it showcases the fact that Capitalism and democracy as we know it are not necessarily complementary.

    • PartisanZ

       /  June 11, 2018

      ‘Communist’ China is the extreme ‘Command Capitalism’ end of a continuum of capitalism.

      You don’t even need to go to the other extreme, Laissez Faire Capitalism to find out that capitalism, far from protecting or defending it, is actually destroying democracy …

      Even our own austere-social welfare-capitalism …

      • Gerrit

         /  June 11, 2018

        Just another slant of the usual “workers must own the means of production to receive the profits of that production”

        Each one of this type of speaker forgets that it requires investment to setup the means of production. And the result of that production requires a market for it to be sold in.

        The thought that by some miracle the “factories and farms” magically appeared and the markets for that produce is always there to enable the workers to reap the harvest of their labour, flows over their communist heads.

        If workers owning the factories and farms is the answer, why don’t the unions buy, or set up, their own factories and farms for the union member workers to receive the benefits of their labour?

        Trying to separate democracy from the economy is a targeted goal?

        No mention is made on how to do that except the usual “workers must own the means of production”

        Speakers like the one in the video are a dime a dozen and talk only to an audience with a mindset that by magic we can divorce democracy from the economy.

        Even communism is wedded to the economy. Why have 5 year plans unless you can control the economy to allow implementation of the 5 year plan.

        • PartisanZ

           /  June 11, 2018

          I don’t think you watched it …

          Why have five year plans? Why is so-called ‘communism’ wedded to the economy?

          Because so-called communism is a form of capitalism …

          We’re rapidly heading towards Varoufakis’ “surveillance mad hyper-autocracy” in a West run by corporate-political ruling elites … inverse totalitarianism …

          And the ‘communist’ extreme was surveillance-mad in its time …

          To say that workers owning the means of production would result in there not being a market for the goods they produce is to renounce thought … I’m not doing so this morning …

          • Gerrit

             /  June 11, 2018

            I watched it fully and the question remains (and like the speaker in the vid – you wont address it) where the investment to create the means of production will come from.

            Market…is more than the goods being produced. It has to contain the need and desire for the products by the customers, at a price level that is affordable and gives value for money.

            Now if the customers don’t want the product or the pricing is too high…the workers need to either change to another marketable product or go without wages.

            The cost associated with a change of product from the factory will be borne by… the workers. Where will the workers get the money…out of their own pockets or a bank?

            Welcome to capitalism.

            • PartisanZ

               /  June 11, 2018

              Gerrit, What you’ve welcomed me to is ‘La La Land’ or some kind of “Through the Looking Glass” Mad Hatter magic market economy … which I suspect only exists in your imagination …

              Varoufakis describes where the investment is located (or locked-up) in his “Twin Peaks” analogy, and cogently argues why it isn’t being used productively … and why the essence of capitalism leads to entropy in the capitalist formula itself …

              You’ve assumed that worker-owned enterprises will automatically produce goods that the workers themselves don’t want … I can’t find a way to make that a basis for a viable discussion … It’s too absurd …

              Conversely, to say that ‘Privatized Capitalism’ does not manipulate and manufacture demand for the products it produces is equally absurd …

              In a very real sense there is only Capitalism …

              The question becomes: Which variety of capitalism or mix of capitalisms – ranging from ‘Command’ to ‘Laissez Faire’ or even ‘Minarchist’ is best for society … including, as Max Harris is pointing out, the indigenous peoples affected by colonisation …

              The same could be said about democracy. We’ve got to get beyond ‘majority rule’ or the very real danger of tyranny of the majority to ever better forms of representation …

              Why questions such as Harris raises are so terribly difficult for many Pakeha to face with even a modicum of receptiveness might imply a considerable degree of intergenerational ‘White Guilt’?

              The people of Aotearoa New Zealand need to find a positive way to engage about this stuff … There’s a monumental consultation and conversation to be had before the introduction of a new Constitution and Republic 2040 or before.

          • PartisanZ

             /  June 11, 2018

            Aristotle’s definition of democracy, he says, is “the constitution where the free and the poor, being in the majority, control government” …

            • Gerrit

               /  June 11, 2018

              Well that differs from the one person, one equal vote that I interpret democracy as.

              By the ancient constitution of a long ago era, only the poor and free can vote.

              Please draw the line in the sand…at what price point the “rich” can no longer participate in the “democracy”.

              From a slave owner’s perspective the right to “free” people to only participate in democracy is natural.

              You did know that Aristotle was a slave owner and also made this famous quote

              “For that some should rule and others be ruled is a thing not only necessary, but expedient; from the hour of their birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule…”

              http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/slavery/ethics/philosophers_1.shtml

              Aristotle is the last person you should quote…on democracy

            • PartisanZ

               /  June 11, 2018

              I was merely repeating something Varoufakis quoted in the video. Those few words cannot define my thoughts and feelings about ‘democracy’ any more than I am promoting Aristotles view …

              You are an absolute master of diversion Gerrit …

              We’re well and truly sidetracked now. I’ve played my part in that and will now disengage from this conversation …

              You, no doubt, will take that as a win … ?

              Is there a problem? I rest my case.

            • Gerrit

               /  June 11, 2018

              I’m not one for scoring “points” to tally up for a “win”. Merely pointing out that the ramble presented in the video is biased cherry picking. You presented the video for discussion and now call for those that do want to discuss as “side tracking” your issues.

              So what are your thoughts on democracy? Not Aristotle version it would seem, him being a slave owner and with class subjugating views on owners and slaves of the worst kind.

              What is your ideal democracy for New Zealand?

              One person one equal vote? That is mine…yours?

              .

            • PartisanZ

               /  June 11, 2018

              What I meant is we’re terribly sidetracked from Pete’s topic of “whiteness, decolonisation and dumping capitalism” which isn’t even the title of Harris’s article … Racism and White Defensiveness in Aotearoa: A Pākehā Perspective … but instead rather “cherry-picked” …

              It was bound to happen. So far no method of ‘confronting’ the wider issue of Colonisation & Racial Privilege has been presented that isn’t confrontational for Pakeha … ‘We’ are absolute snowflakes in this regard … so hurty feelings about it …

              Slapped, we instantly demand a duel of insults across the media/social media constructed by and for we the more privileged …

              What form of democracy is best for Aotearoa New Zealand is a monumental discussion.

              I believe Matike Mai Aotearoa Report is the best recent investigation into a Constitutionality for our nation … by something approaching a country mile …

              http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/MatikeMaiAotearoaReport.pdf

              Under our present form of democracy, such a Constitution couldn’t even be democratically agreed upon … and the writers of the report freely admit and invite more conversation, evolution, adaptation … which is ultimately what I think democracy needs to be …. not ‘stuck’ like it is now.

              To paraphrase Dr Muriel Newman from her (cherry-picked, inciteful) letter about ‘Race-based democracy’ in last week’s Northland Age:

              It is an appalling state of affairs when the very democracy that purports to represent us is itself undermining representation.

            • Gerrit

               /  June 11, 2018

              Have only skim read the 125 pages of the report in the link. Very Maori centered (as expected – being by Maori for Maori).

              I would like to see the more Tauiwi input into the discussion document.

              So that Maori get an inclination that many Tauiwi consider themselves as tangata whenua (especially after 6 or 7 generations off citizenship).

              Now the document is an excellent starting point but unless Tauiwi get a similar input into their concerns and wants, it will no be well received in 2021 or anytime later.

              A constitution has to have equal input from all New Zealander’s, not just Maori. Will the crown set up similar meetings for Tauiwi (paid for the the UN as this Maori centered one was) to collate their views?

              Initial problem I have is the spheres of influences as described by the document. Especially model two (page 107) where no quantities of weight for each sphere (and judging by the graphics equal shares) is presented.

              A situation where we would have 15% of the population having 50% of the rule (power). Not democracy in my view.

              I would foresee that the TOW will not be referenced in a constitution based on one person one equal vote.

        • Blazer

           /  June 11, 2018

          you just don’t ‘get it’..Gerrit…
          ‘If workers owning the factories and farms is the answer, why don’t the unions buy, or set up, their own factories and farms for the union member workers to receive the benefits of their labour?’

          who do you think builds and works the factories and farms?

          where does the initial ‘capital’ come from?Do you know?

          • Gerrit

             /  June 11, 2018

            Investors…banks…state…reverse mortgages on property…etc

            Do you know where the money comes from…thought not

            • Blazer

               /  June 11, 2018

              well when Private bankers create ‘money’ and hand it out to an elite few .it shuts the average worker out of the opportunity you think…exists.

            • PDB

               /  June 11, 2018

              Overwhelmingly the ‘average worker’ doesn’t want to take investment risks – they would rather draw a guaranteed income off the back of someone else’s business. The ones that do want to take a risk set up their own small businesses and the like.

            • Blazer

               /  June 11, 2018

              ‘Overwhelmingly the ‘average worker’ doesn’t want to take investment risks’

              the average person is very cautious,because unlike some ,he know’s he will not be bailed out if he puts his meagre capital at risk.

              Carte blanche crony capitalism as per the Wall St banking reality,not surprisingly does not care about…such trivialities.

            • Blazer

               /  June 11, 2018

              reality T.V…entertainment,they won’t invest unless they can really screw the entrepreneur and take little..risk if..any.

    • Grimm

       /  June 11, 2018

      “Socialism is the middle way”

      Nope. It needs to fought at every turn. Poverty, hunger and disease are it’s bed fellows. That argument was won decades ago. Move on.

      To use countries whose wealth has been derived from oil, as examples, is beyond ridiculous, even for you.

      • Blazer

         /  June 11, 2018

        Denmark,Sweden,Iceland and Finland are not renown for oil reserves.
        Not surprised that you have..NFI.

        • PDB

           /  June 11, 2018

          All are classic mixed economies like ourselves. Socialist policy paid for by capitalist policy.

          • Blazer

             /  June 11, 2018

            what exactly is…’capitalist policy’?

            • PDB

               /  June 11, 2018

              Market economy driven by private businesses.

            • Blazer

               /  June 11, 2018

              theory=’Market economy driven by private businesses.

              practice=Carte blanche crony capitalism as per the Wall St banking reality,

  5. Ray

     /  June 11, 2018

    Then there is this on Twitter
    Interesting figures out last week has between 45 and 47% of employed academics not holding NZ passports or citizenship. Makes developing a deep understanding of ti tiriti very hard when most pakeha New Zealanders struggle with it.

  6. PartisanZ

     /  June 11, 2018

    Big, big topic … huge issue … massive ‘conversation’ …

    Pete you’ve managed to exhibit all of Harris’s forms of ‘white defensiveness’ and then some in presenting it, well done!

    Of course, Harris can’t possibly be allowed to begin or continue this ‘ongoing’ conversation, which is central to our nation’s founding, history and development “going forward”. He must know all the answers and be able to instantly solve all the problems too …

    He absolutely must not generalize about Pakeha despite the fact people ENDLESSLY generalize about Maori …

    And, of course, it goes without saying, our economy has absolutely nothing to do with racial difference – as exhibited in Te Tiriti o Waitangi – or with racism – as exhibited by Pakeha (The Crown) regularly dishonouring Te Tiriti – or with how ‘we’ exercise the very limited form of (so-called) democracy we use …

    But most of all, he mustn’t ask or even invite us Pakeha to look at ourselves, to self-reflect, to take responsibility to any extent, to do something other than be defensive …

    And, I might add, I have yet to forgive Max Harris for his “strategic voting” message via ActionStation during the election, which ‘dumped’ on TOPs chances, despite TOP having the most policies aligned with ActionStation …

    Every generation probably does this … has their high ideals … their great ideologies …

    I can think of one!

    • Gerrit

       /  June 11, 2018

      Problem with the “whiteness” scenario is that the very term “whiteness” is some 50 years out of date.

      The correct term he should be using is Tauiwi.

      The treaty might have been signed with the “whiteness” of the British crown, however the third colonisation of New Zealand (after the Maori and European ones) has been ongoing and any “whiteness” is being has pretty well be displaced with a “tan” one from Asia.

      Without a construct of what declonisation would look like (never mind how to achieve that) nothing will happen.

      I have yet to see how democracy would work in a setting where 15% of the people have 50% of the voting rights. Based on total separation and decolonisation of New Zealand along racial lines and a supposedly equal partnership (according to the treaty) between Maori and the “whiteness” as represented by the British crown.

  7. Corky

     /  June 11, 2018

    As I was reading this missive, two things happened. I broke out in a sweat, and the image of a weedy liberal academic popped into my mind.

    This chap is obviously behind the 8 ball, his comrades are well advanced with dismantling the power and privilege that keep ” whitey.” in power.

    Don’t believe me? It starts with the the young( always the young), and it starts with education. Liberals/socialists/whatever, know that no change comes unless the young are conditioned.

    https://stephenmcalpine.com/2018/06/07/when-western-universities-start-to-stink/

    ”We all must also push for a different economic order, given the way that the twin forces of capitalism and colonisation have amplified the power of whiteness.”

    What different economic order? This chaps well-being, and mine and Maori depend on our present system. Maybe he means power sharing, parallel justice and social ministries?
    Well, has he been to South Africa and Rhodesia recently?

    • PartisanZ

       /  June 11, 2018

      You are, of course, ‘conflating’ “different” economic order with “worse” economic order …

      A different economic order might in reality be “better” …?

      Did our economy get worse when Laissez Faire ‘colonial’ capitalism collapsed and the Great Depression ushered in ‘Social Security’ …?

      Do you think our economy got worse when Muldoonist ‘Socialism’ – the wackiest form of socialism that has ever existed (and by no means the least dangerous for some) – gave way to Rogerednomics …?

      So-called ‘democracy’ has also evolved. Aotearoa New Zealand led the way in ‘adapting’ so-called democracy to include all women … (Of course, the vote is next-to-meaningless if you have no say in processes that supply candidates and if policy is ‘for sale’ to big business and social elites) …

      Nonetheless, when both economics and democracy have clearly evolved and adapted, to say that neither economics nor democracy can evolve any further is to deny reason, forgo logic and renounce thought … none of which I’m interested in doing this morning.

      South Africa and Rhodesia have got precisely NOTHING to do with it. Your mention of them is nothing more than a measure of how personally threatened you feel by the subject.

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  June 11, 2018

        The only reason SA and Zimbabwe are not relevant is precisely because Maori are not still imbued with pre-colonial beliefs and values. Those who rate those highly should indeed look at the mess that is Africa where as Paul Theroux recently commented if you go to any group of young people and ask what their ambition is, the answer is “to move to your country”.

      • Corky

         /  June 11, 2018

        ”You are, of course, ‘conflating’ “different” economic order with “worse” economic order …”

        Yes, because this chap tells us what economic order he wants, but not how it would work practically. Therefore that must make it worse when compared with what we have now, admittedly far from perfect, but it does work…even for the underprivileged.

        ”South Africa and Rhodesia have got precisely NOTHING to do with it. Your mention of them is nothing more than a measure of how personally threatened you feel by the subject.”

        I mentioned them because a new order took over from ” Whitey” And one of the first things that happened was Rhodesia became Zimbabwe …and that was about the only positive for that countries new order.

        • PartisanZ

           /  June 11, 2018

          Yeah ‘Right’ … and Black or indigenous people had it SOOOO GOOOD in Rhodesia under ‘Whitey’ rule …

          South Africa too! It was a veritable paradise for Blacks and people of “Mixed Race”.

          • Gerrit

             /  June 11, 2018

            Do you think they have a “better” paradise under the current ruler-ship that has been running now for 20 odd years (in Zimbabwe case 40 years)?

            • PartisanZ

               /  June 11, 2018

              They have a better ‘chance’ Gerrit … a better ‘opportunity’ … don’t capitalism and democracy both advocate “equal opportunity” …

              Under White Rule they had fuck all chance …

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  June 11, 2018

            Both were paradise relative to their northern neighbours and to what they became.

          • Corky

             /  June 11, 2018

            ”Yeah ‘Right’ … and Black or indigenous people had it SOOOO GOOOD in Rhodesia under ‘Whitey’ rule …”

            No, blacks didn’t comparative wise have it as good as whitey under Whitey rule.
            However, there was stability and a job.

            Ask them how things are now, Parti…and whether they would like white rule back until they could work out their affairs.

            • PartisanZ

               /  June 11, 2018

              You reckon all those people who rioted in Soweto and were killed by the Apartheid Police had jobs!?

  8. Alan Wilkinson

     /  June 11, 2018

    Did he say anything worth thinking about? No.

  9. Zedd

     /  June 11, 2018

    ‘While I have no problems with the term Pākehā I don’t identify as Pākehā. I identify as a New Zealander.’ sez PG

    When I came here (from UK) as a lad.. I never heard this word, it was; kiwis & maoris (or Kiwi & iwi.. in modern terms). I have been labeled as a ‘pakeha’ (white NZer) but more recently I hear that ‘pakeha’ really refers to the ones who were born here, 3-4 generations or more. The other word I hear; ‘Tauiwi’ (other tribes) so I have adopted this option, as a ‘more recently arrived’ person to Aotearoa/NZ

    btw; It is Maori that make this whenua unique.. this is not ‘England in the south pacific’ or any version of that.. as it seems some folks believe ?? :/

    • Zedd

       /  June 11, 2018

      btw; It is Maori that make this whenua unique.. this is not ‘England in the south pacific’ or any version of that.. as it seems some folks believe ??

      * I often wonder why many in Aotearoa/NZ are so staunchly Monarchists.. maybe they should adopt the Kingitanga instead (as King of Aotearoa.. not just ‘Maori king’) ?

      • Alan Wilkinson

         /  June 11, 2018

        It is Maori that make this whenua unique.”

        No, we all contribute to that. Those who were prepared to sail halfway around the world in small boats to emigrate were just as unique as those who already lived here. So are those who think and those who do. All of these have made us unique.

        • Blazer

           /  June 11, 2018

          what is unique about white NZ’ers as opposed to Aussies…Al?

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  June 11, 2018

            They don’t all think like you, B.

            • Blazer

               /  June 11, 2018

              stumped again…Al. 😉

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  June 11, 2018

              Nope, we are all unique in our own ways. Some of us are unique in various Kiwi ways. One of those uniquenesses is Maori.

        • Zedd

           /  June 11, 2018

          Well.. thats at least one mans opinion.. 😀

          Try telling the Aust. Aborigines Or Canadian First Nations people that.. Alan

          Most tourists come here to see (amongst other things) the Unique Maori traditions.. not just more cities with Coca-Cola, KFC, McCrap & Starbucks etc. everywhere

          • Alan Wilkinson

             /  June 11, 2018

            Rubbish. Most come here to enjoy the scenery, Lord of the Rings locations and do outdoor adventure activities (mostly with non-Maori guides).

            Do your “First Nations” people actually have thought out opinions or are they just chanting political slogans?

            • Zedd

               /  June 11, 2018

              thats typical ‘pakeha thinking’.. look outside the square/box :/

            • Alan Wilkinson

               /  June 11, 2018

              Well, if facts are typical ‘pakeha thinking’ I’ll stick with it. You can fantasise about boxes, Zedd.

            • sorethumb

               /  June 11, 2018

              Maori shows, sheep shearing shows – you can have too much of a good thing.

    • sorethumb

       /  June 11, 2018

      Tell that to indian dairy owner.

  10. Griff

     /  June 11, 2018

    Load of bone carving polishing twaddle.
    There never was and never will be a Maori nation. The “First nation” was a group of separate tribes perpetually in deadly war with each other.
    One of the biggest issues Maori face is their culture precludes them from successfully taking part in society. Making that culture the standard for the rest of us would drag us all down to their level.
    Cargo cult if Maori had all the power Maori would magically have all the answers and create a better society
    When the culture Maori have is measurable broken now.

    If after two hundred years Maori are still at the bottom of society despite their alleged better culture how is more peploe immersing in that culture going to result in a better society?

    • PartisanZ

       /  June 11, 2018

      Ah, the old “its all their own fault” argument …

      So hapu iwi Maori – recognised as such in Te Tiriti o Waitangi, not as a single ‘nation’ – were never wronged?

      Wow! Even a good many of the Righties on here believe there is some substance to Treaty Claims & Settlements …

      • sorethumb

         /  June 11, 2018

  11. PartisanZ

     /  June 11, 2018

    Assuming that colonisation, capitalism and what we nowadays loosely call ‘democracy’ are inextricably linked, this is the single most important and relevant ‘greater discussion’ for our future …

    However, I don’t think we’ll be dumping capitalism but rather ‘rethinking’ it … as indeed it is doing itself in myriad ways, automation, AI, and with corporate responsibility and volunteering programs, alignment to the UN’s Impact2030 SDG’s and so forth …

    If we dump anything it might best be our ‘atomized’ thinking, which leads us to believe ‘capitalism’ ever was or ever can be some kind of ‘stand-alone’, isolated thing … any human business enterprise surely involves elements of ‘capital’ and ‘social’ (or human) investment?

    If there is money involved, it’s all capital-social-ist, its all industrial, its [nearly] all regulated to some extent or other … Rethinking or fine-tuning it is a matter of degrees …

    The question remains: How to involve Pakeha in this great discussion without automatically setting them on the defensive?

  12. sorethumb

     /  June 11, 2018

    I don’t think Max Harris has one new idea. He’s refried beans.

    • PartisanZ

       /  June 11, 2018

      The new ideas are in places like the Matike Mai Aotearoa Report …

      Things like a Tricameral Legislature with Maori and Non-Maori spheres or marae/assemblies and an Inter-Relational sphere …

      Westminster Parliamentary ‘democracy’ is bereft of new ideas by comparison, expecting itself to remain relevant without evolving, adapting or changing …

      And, as well all know, our current form of democracy can and has been ‘bought’ …

      I gather Max Harris is popular with younger people, which is an achievement in itself. To be popular without being populist is quite an achievement indeed …

      • sorethumb

         /  June 11, 2018

        I gather Max Harris is popular with younger people, which is an achievement in itself. To be popular without being populist is quite an achievement indeed
        ……….
        Snowflakes and assorted Fruitcakes?

  13. sorethumb

     /  June 11, 2018

    terrible that the left carry on a toxic meta narrative.

  14. sorethumb

     /  June 11, 2018

    terrible that the left on the one hand critique and on the other essentialise with a broad brush. (Maori/Pakeha – can you all guess which ones)?

  15. sorethumb

     /  June 11, 2018

    Terrible that the left promote post-modernist anti science.

    Sunglasses need here:
    https://www.famousscientists.org/popular/

    Neolithic Britain 4000 to 2000 BC
    Neolithic Aotearoa 1290 to 1796

  16. sorethumb

     /  June 11, 2018

    1832 – Earle, A. A Narrative of a Nine Months’ Residence in New Zealand, in 1827[Pages 101-150]

    The scene I have just described brings into consideration the subject of slavery, as it now exists in New Zealand. That slavery should be the custom of savage nations and cannibals, is not a cause of wonder: they are the only class of human beings it ought to remain with. Here slavery assumes its most hideous shape! Every one they can effect a seizure of in an enemy’s country becomes the slave of the captors. Chiefs are never made prisoners; they either fight to the last, or are killed on the spot, and their heads are preserved (by a peculiar method) as trophies. Children are greatly prized: these they bring to their dwellings, and they remain slaves for life. Upon the number of slaves a chief can muster he takes his rank as a man of wealth and consequence in society; and the only chance these wretched beings have of being released from their miseries, is their master getting into a rage, and murdering them without further ceremony.
    On entering a village, a stranger instantly discovers which portion of its inhabitants are the slaves, though both the complexion and the dresses of all are alike. The free Zealander is a joyous, good-humoured looking man, full of laughter and vivacity, and is chattering incessantly; but the slaves have invariably a squalid dejected look; they are never seen to smile, and appear literally half starved. The beauties characteristic of a New Zealander are his teeth and hair: the latter, in particular, is his pride and study; but the slaves have their heads half shorn. The male slave is not allowed to marry; and any intercourse with a female, if discovered, is generally punished by death. Never was there a body of men so completely cut off from all society as these poor slaves; they never can count, with certainty, on a single moment of life, as the savage caprice of their master may instantly deprive them of it. If, by chance, a slave should belong to a kind and good master, an accident happening to him, or any of his family, will probably prove equally fatal to the slave, as some are generally sacrificed on the death of a chief.
    Thus these poor slaves are deprived of every hope and stimulus by which all other classes and individuals are animated; no good conduct of theirs towards their master, no attachment to his person or family, no fidelity or long service can ensure kind treatment. If the slave effect his escape to his own part of the country, he is there treated with contempt; and when he dies (if a natural death), his body is dragged to the outside of the village, there to be made sport of by the children, or to furnish food for the dogs! but more frequently his fate is to receive a fatal blow in a fit of passion, and then be devoured by his brutal master! Even the female slaves who, if pretty, are frequently taken as wives by their conquerors, have not a much greater chance of happiness, all being dependent upon the caprice of their owners.
    http://www.enzb.auckland.ac.nz/document?wid=300&page=0&action=null