PRAYER FROM AN ATHEIST

Guest post from Gezza

The only way to cure Islam’s ills is to educate Muslims out of believing the Quran. To do that, you also have to educate the Jews out of believing the Torah & the Christians out of believing the Bible.

All of them derive their basis for belief from the first scribblings of unbelievable myth & bullshit in the Jewish Scriptures, & all are demonstrably false.

All of them, & all other supernatural religions, have become interwoven over centuries into the ethnic, cultural & national identities of scores of religious sects & diverse peoples throughout the globe. They have driven land grabs, wars and strife for eons. False beliefs taught to ignorant people of long bygone ages still lie at the very heart of most of the worst tensions & strife between nations & ethnic groups & cultures around the world today.

Of them all, Christianity, while influential in the development of the better aspects of Western civilisation, especially over the last century, has probably reduced the most in direct influence on Westerners, as secular morality has developed & improved on the limits of the so-called 10 commandments, & the Golden Rule. (Even the Golden Rule is reportedly actually quite common to many religions & societies around the globe, or at least between believers or members of the same group.)

Christians forget that making slaves of people from other nations is still sanctioned by God (& Jesus never countermanded Mosaic Law) in the Bible. It is time people looked at the Torah, the Bible and the Quran only as important historical Books.

The Bible played an undoubtedly important part in the development of Western Civilisation & law, but, when you put the pastor outside, clear your mind of the reinterpretations you’ve been fed by the priestly class, & simply read it plainly, end to end, it is instantly revealed, self-evidently, as merely a collection of 3rd 4th & 5th hand scribblings about historically unsupportable superstitions, myths, magic, & logical & scientific nonsense.

It is the story of a savage, jealous, vengeful, murderous, infanticidal, rape & slavery-condoning God who Christians still say – notwithstanding that he ordered and /or committed these heinous acts – MUST be good! Because he is God. And God is good. So he must have had a good reason for such horrific cruelty & immorality. This is just bizarre. Truly daft that anyone can try to rationalise it with pathetic defences about relative morality meaning it was good behaviour from Jaweh for those times, but it’s not now.

Modern, secular society Christians, as empathetic, intelligent, social, human beings whose ideas of morality have now gone well beyond the Bible’s, would NEVER willingly choose to do these horrible things to other people. With the blinkers of highly selective Christian teachings off – the Judeo-Christian God’s actions & commands are actually evil by today’s standards. Jaweh orders the Israelites to commit murder, genocide, rape, infanticide for heaven’s sake. If he came to earth today, he’d literally be in the dock for crimes against humanity!

The same, & new, maybe worse, errors, horrors, pointless, repressive, oppressive, conflicting, bloodthirsty, outdated regulations, bad science, teachings, & beliefs of superiority over others, dictated by a middle-aged Arab warlord, are set out in the Quran & Hadith that Muslims are forced by their theocratic rulers and family & social pressures to believe & take with them wherever they go.

I don’t hate these religions, per se, but I know beyond any reasonable doubt they are false & well out-of-date.

And I DO hate how the contortions & distortions of these ludicrous scripts can be twisted in the minds of gullible believers, who suspend their rationality, & listen when imams & pastors tell them these clusters of confused crap mean something totally different to what they actually say – really, only out of the instilled fear of everlasting torture if they don’t believe it, or the need of desperate or fearful people to call on some hoped-for divine universal power to help them deal with adversity in their daily lives, and give them vain hope of some vague glorious reward of everlasting life & happiness in a hereafter beyond their inevitable expiry date on this earth.

There is NO actual evidence of any such thing. You won’t be seeing your pet dog or the roast lamb you ate for lunch in Heaven either. (Well, I’m an agnostic really. I can’t absolutely guarantee that there is no more existence for our personalities beyond this earthly lifetime, but it’s such a remote possibility that the probability of our death being our complete end of existence would be well in excess of 99.99999%. And it’s an absolute certainty, in my opinion, that in the unlikely event I’m wrong, any existence beyond our earthly one would not be anything like what’s promised in any of these dreadful Holy Books.)

In my view, all children should be given a secular education. They should be taught, first, written language & mathematics, then logic & reasoning, & science, & then told to forget their preachers, & their parents’ beliefs, & be instructed to just read these Holy texts, without reinterpretation, from start to finish. If, by the end, they haven’t figured out:

“WTF? Who can seriously take this garbled rubbish recited to ancient sheep herders & camel drivers as divinely inspired instructions to humanity?”

they should then learn the history of the people who, it is claimed, wrote them, and of how they spread their religions, and warred over them.

That would, hopefully, be the end of the religions, & when their believing parents finally pass away, they could just bury them respectfully, & then just put their Holy Books on the shelves in the Great Myths & History sections of libraries, & focus on establishing or evolving the fairest & most tolerant sets of values, ethics & laws that fit their own ethnic cultures & customs, settle their border squabbles, & renew good relationships with other people & cultures who live in this world – without this bloody religious dogma continually overpowering their reason & humanity & pitting devout, deluded believers & their descendents forever against each other.

Value your separate customs of dress & hospitality, & languages, & other delineators of your cultural & national identities & borders. Live freely in the places your cultures now belong, or have belonged for centuries, & welcome visitors from different lands who respect your customs while there.

If you move to another place, adapt to their culture. If eventually, in the future, we can all meld together with common evolved values & customs & laws & behaviours, so that borders can effectively disappear, there is maybe hope for a true paradise on earth – but that is a long, long way away yet, in my view.

In the meantime, for heaven’s sake, please, read, THINK, & then throw out all the false Gods that tell you you are a special & favoured people, & that all the other gods & their deluded believers are wrong! Humanity MUST outgrow these mythical supernatural rulers if we are ever to evolve the kind of world we really want.

We need to learn to love & live the life we have to the full. It is the only one we have. We need to grow up & face this fact. It is time for us to put away these childish fairy & troll kings – & become better than them.

53 Comments

  1. Alan Wilkinson

     /  July 14, 2018

    Yes. As a twelve year old I lay in bed several nights wondering how adults could be so stupid as to believe this stuff and how I was going to have to live my life amongst them. I’m happy that in this country at least ridiculous belief has waned substantially since then.

  2. Griff

     /  July 14, 2018

    99.99999%.?
    You are an atheist.
    Agnostic is someone who believes that the odds of god/gods are a lot closer to 50%.

    • Gezza

       /  July 14, 2018

      I’m an agnostic only in the sense that I cannot claim to absolutely know anything, So I can’t completely rule out some, as yet unknown, individual or collective creator of this universe, not my concept of God – although I can’t define or even conceive what such a possible prime moving cause might be. One day maybe theoretical physics & cosmology will finally tell our decscendents exactly why our universe is here, whether there are any others, & whether they’re part of some looped infinite process of creation that’s actually scientifically explicable & agreed by all

      By some argued definitions & subcategories of atheism, agnosticism, deism or pandeism – or whatever – that I have watched argued by in religious debates between atheists & Christian preachers who cannot conceive of any other concept of God but their own Abrahamic version, I therefore fit into THEIR individual concept of agnostic. Others argue that I’m simply an atheist because I don’t believe in THEIR Christian god.

      None of which I care to argue about Griff because it doesn’t really interest me & it’s not germane to the main point of my article. Thanks for your effort though. 👍🏼

  3. PartisanZ

     /  July 14, 2018

    There’s a life force that animates the universe … which, after realizing the ‘oneness’ of it, human beings have deified and called One ‘God’ … after worshiping numerous Gods for a very long time …

    “The future … will not be without religion. But this religion will be on a higher plane than the religions of the present day …

    The religion of the future will go further … So long as we endeavour to approach the divine with our too human thought, or even the words of our poor human speech, we are presumptuously applying our understanding to the incomprehensible, and attempting to measure the immeasurable …

    The religion of the future will be reverential and humble meditation without images and without language, on the wonder of existence.” (Warner)

    • Grimm

       /  July 14, 2018

      The religion of the future is already here. It’s called AGW. From the hypocritical high priests, to the conformity, to the burning of heretics at the stake, it has all the hallmarks.

      • Griff

         /  July 14, 2018

        Actually you are the one who has the religion.
        Science is based on evidence .
        Your denial is based on your faith that science is wrong.

        • Grimm

           /  July 14, 2018

          Right on cue.

          Maybe I’ve become cynical on account of the nearly 3000 peer reviewed studies each year which don’t support AGW.

          Maybe I’ve become cynical because your high priests are the ones living the life they are asking everyone else not to.

          Maybe I’ve become cynical because none of the “scientific” models have been accurate.

          Or, maybe it’s just because none of the predictions from “scientists” have come to pass.

          Not sure what you base your dogmatic belief on.

          • Griff

             /  July 14, 2018

            ROFL
            Pure fuckwittery .
            The following are scientific organizations that hold the position that Climate Change has been caused by human action:

            Academia Chilena de Ciencias, Chile
            Academia das Ciencias de Lisboa, Portugal
            Academia de Ciencias de la República Dominicana
            Academia de Ciencias Físicas, Matemáticas y Naturales de Venezuela
            Academia de Ciencias Medicas, Fisicas y Naturales de Guatemala
            Academia Mexicana de Ciencias,Mexico
            Academia Nacional de Ciencias de Bolivia
            Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru
            Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
            Académie des Sciences, France
            Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada
            Academy of Athens
            Academy of Science of Mozambique
            Academy of Science of South Africa
            Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS)
            Academy of Sciences Malaysia
            Academy of Sciences of Moldova
            Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic
            Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran
            Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt
            Academy of the Royal Society of New Zealand
            Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy
            Africa Centre for Climate and Earth Systems Science
            African Academy of Sciences
            Albanian Academy of Sciences
            Amazon Environmental Research Institute
            American Academy of Pediatrics
            American Anthropological Association
            American Association for the Advancement of Science
            American Association of State Climatologists (AASC)
            American Association of Wildlife Veterinarians
            American Astronomical Society
            American Chemical Society
            American College of Preventive Medicine
            American Fisheries Society
            American Geophysical Union
            American Institute of Biological Sciences
            American Institute of Physics
            American Meteorological Society
            American Physical Society
            American Public Health Association
            American Quaternary Association
            American Society for Microbiology
            American Society of Agronomy
            American Society of Civil Engineers
            American Society of Plant Biologists
            American Statistical Association
            Association of Ecosystem Research Centers
            Australian Academy of Science
            Australian Bureau of Meteorology
            Australian Coral Reef Society
            Australian Institute of Marine Science
            Australian Institute of Physics
            Australian Marine Sciences Association
            Australian Medical Association
            Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
            Bangladesh Academy of Sciences
            Botanical Society of America
            Brazilian Academy of Sciences
            British Antarctic Survey
            Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
            California Academy of Sciences
            Cameroon Academy of Sciences
            Canadian Association of Physicists
            Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
            Canadian Geophysical Union
            Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
            Canadian Society of Soil Science
            Canadian Society of Zoologists
            Caribbean Academy of Sciences views
            Center for International Forestry Research
            Chinese Academy of Sciences
            Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences
            Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) (Australia)
            Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research
            Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences
            Crop Science Society of America
            Cuban Academy of Sciences
            Delegation of the Finnish Academies of Science and Letters
            Ecological Society of America
            Ecological Society of Australia
            Environmental Protection Agency
            European Academy of Sciences and Arts
            European Federation of Geologists
            European Geosciences Union
            European Physical Society
            European Science Foundation
            Federation of American Scientists
            French Academy of Sciences
            Geological Society of America
            Geological Society of Australia
            Geological Society of London
            Georgian Academy of Sciences
            German Academy of Natural Scientists Leopoldina
            Ghana Academy of Arts and Sciences
            Indian National Science Academy
            Indonesian Academy of Sciences
            Institute of Ecology and Environmental Management
            Institute of Marine Engineering, Science and Technology
            Institute of Professional Engineers New Zealand
            Institution of Mechanical Engineers, UK
            InterAcademy Council
            International Alliance of Research Universities
            International Arctic Science Committee
            International Association for Great Lakes Research
            International Council for Science
            International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences
            International Research Institute for Climate and Society
            International Union for Quaternary Research
            International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics
            International Union of Pure and Applied Physics
            Islamic World Academy of Sciences
            Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities
            Kenya National Academy of Sciences
            Korean Academy of Science and Technology
            Kosovo Academy of Sciences and Arts
            l’Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
            Latin American Academy of Sciences
            Latvian Academy of Sciences
            Lithuanian Academy of Sciences
            Madagascar National Academy of Arts, Letters, and Sciences
            Mauritius Academy of Science and Technology
            Montenegrin Academy of Sciences and Arts
            National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina
            National Academy of Sciences of Armenia
            National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic
            National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka
            National Academy of Sciences, United States of America
            National Aeronautics and Space Administration
            National Association of Geoscience Teachers
            National Association of State Foresters
            National Center for Atmospheric Research
            National Council of Engineers Australia
            National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research, New Zealand
            National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
            National Research Council
            National Science Foundation
            Natural England
            Natural Environment Research Council, UK
            Natural Science Collections Alliance
            Network of African Science Academies
            New York Academy of Sciences
            Nicaraguan Academy of Sciences
            Nigerian Academy of Sciences
            Norwegian Academy of Sciences and Letters
            Oklahoma Climatological Survey
            Organization of Biological Field Stations
            Pakistan Academy of Sciences
            Palestine Academy for Science and Technology
            Pew Center on Global Climate Change
            Polish Academy of Sciences
            Romanian Academy
            Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium
            Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain
            Royal Astronomical Society, UK
            Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters
            Royal Irish Academy
            Royal Meteorological Society (UK)
            Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences
            Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research
            Royal Scientific Society of Jordan
            Royal Society of Canada
            Royal Society of Chemistry, UK
            Royal Society of the United Kingdom
            Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
            Russian Academy of Sciences
            Science and Technology, Australia
            Science Council of Japan
            Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research
            Scientific Committee on Solar-Terrestrial Physics
            Scripps Institution of Oceanography
            Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts
            Slovak Academy of Sciences
            Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts
            Society for Ecological Restoration International
            Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics
            Society of American Foresters
            Society of Biology (UK)
            Society of Systematic Biologists
            Soil Science Society of America
            Sudan Academy of Sciences
            Sudanese National Academy of Science
            Tanzania Academy of Sciences
            The Wildlife Society (international)
            Turkish Academy of Sciences
            Uganda National Academy of Sciences
            Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities
            United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
            University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
            Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
            Woods Hole Research Center
            World Association of Zoos and Aquariums
            World Federation of Public Health Associations
            World Forestry Congress
            World Health Organization
            World Meteorological Organization
            Zambia Academy of Sciences
            Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences

            The following scientific organizations dispute the theory.

        • Grimm

           /  July 14, 2018

          But I think what I’ve become most cynical about is that with all the hundreds of millions spent on talkfests, and the 190 countries signed up to Paris, none (well one, but you know, Trump) of them has made a meaningful change to C02 emissions. So from that we have to conclude that none of them really believe the doomsday scenarios either.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  July 14, 2018

      When we know everything about our universe we will still know nothing about anything else. When we know everything about ourselves we will probably know nothing about any other form of intelligence.

  4. Conspiratoor

     /  July 14, 2018

    Why do most of us see the need to link God, faith and religion? Is it possible to have an encounter with the creator without being tied to a religion?

    Science and technology got me there, but when I got there and I looked back home at the Earth, science and technology could not explain what I was seeing nor what I was feeling,

    The Earth doesn’t tumble through space; it moves with logic and certainty and with beauty beyond comprehension,” he said. “It’s just too beautiful to have happened by accident. There has to be somebody bigger than you and me that put it all together. There’s no question in my mind that there’s a Creator of the universe. There’s a God up there. Someone—some being, some power—placed our little world, our sun and our moon where they are in the dark void.

    http://blog.godreports.com/2017/01/last-man-on-the-moon-became-convinced-of-gods-existence/

    • Griff

       /  July 14, 2018

      Who created god then?
      By your logic.
      If god is so majestic some higher being must have made it.
      Occums razor then rears up and demolishes your argument for gods.

      • Zedd

         /  July 14, 2018

        ‘Who created god then?’ sez Griff

        Im guessing that is a question, for ‘God’ to ask ‘himself’ ??

        • Gezza

           /  July 14, 2018

          No, it’s a question for whoever made God to answer, & if she doesn’t know, she needs to ask her parents, and if they don’t know, they need to ask theirs, and …

          • Zedd

             /  July 14, 2018

            touche,, maybe ‘God’ is a figment of his own imagination ? (a bit like MrT) 😀

  5. Zedd

     /  July 14, 2018

    Im glad you got that off your chest Gezza..

    I grew up agnostic, my parents did not ‘instill religion’ in us, but said have an open mind to the possibility. Having looked at; Judeo-christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Rastafarian, Zoroastrian & Buddhism (not actually a theist religion).. I came to the conclusion that most people at some some time in life, have a desire for ‘deeper understanding & purpose’.. rather than just; get up, go to work, come home & watch TV/read blogs etc, eat food & crap it out.. go to bed & start over the next day (plus whatever else you may do, to amuse yourself)

    BUT unless ‘the day of the Lord’ actually comes ‘as a thief in the night’ (as the bible & qur’an claim).. chances are it will all remain speculation & debate !?

    ‘All praises in the name of the most HIGH… Jah RastafarI’

    “Here endeth the lesson” 🙂 😀

    • Zedd

       /  July 14, 2018

      btw; “Happy Sabbath”.. y’all 🙂

      • Gezza

         /  July 14, 2018

        I’m thinking of sending it to The Pope, The Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem, & The Islamic Federation of NZ, for feedback.

        I might add:
        “PS: Get a REAL job!”

        What do you think?

        • They will have heard all this before.Don’t waste time and embarrass yourself.

          I have an atheist friend, and she doesn’t feel the need to disprove religion at length, as she doesn’t believe in it so there’s nothing to disprove in her view. A late neighbour didn’t believe in an afterlife, but didn’t try to convince those who did. To him, death was like switching a light off.

          I wouldn’t try to convince the lovely, kind Mormon woman up the road or the equally lovely and kind Mormon family down the road that their views are wrong although I find aspects of Mormonism bizarre. It’s none of my business what they believe. They, and other Mormons I have known, are brilliant ads for their religion with their loving kindness. When D has been to this house, she hasn’t tried to tell us to get rid of the icons.

          One Mormon woman we/I knew/know is passionately pro-life, and not only works in the cause (SPUC) takes in babies and has seldom been seen without one or two in a pram. She had 10 of her own and has, I believe, saved the lives of some who would have been aborted by taking them in herself. The house must be made of rubber, as there’s always room for one more.

          • Gezza

             /  July 14, 2018

            Ok. I won’t add the PS.

          • Griff

             /  July 14, 2018

            Meh.
            I am a hard Atheist
            Mostly, as with agw, I only react to others comments .
            On KB there was heaps of religious nuts who tried to force their religion or used it for justification of their views so I often countered.
            On here it seldom comes up so I dont push the issue .
            In real life
            Vive et alteros vivere permitte.

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  July 14, 2018

              It vero.

            • Ita vero, typo.

              This letter comes across as rather aggressive, confrontational and insulting, so is unlikely to convince anyone.

          • Gezza

             /  July 14, 2018

            I wouldn’t try to convince the lovely, kind Mormon woman up the road or the equally lovely and kind Mormon family down the road that their views are wrong although I find aspects of Mormonism bizarre.

            I’m much the same. Most modern day Chritians I know while deluded about this are nice, kind, people. Live and let live indeed. But when I think about why I don’t challenge or discuss their religion with them it’s because I’ve learned not to. Because it can deeply emotionally upset them & they don’t want to have anything more to do with you afterwards.

            They can pull back, drop you out of their circle, you’re dangerous, you’re headed for hell, what if you doom their children to eternal damnation? Some can even turn positively toxic on you. Live & let live just is a social defense strategy sometimes, if one is honest with oneself.

            • Gezza

               /  July 14, 2018

              This letter comes across as rather aggressive, confrontational and insulting, so is unlikely to convince anyone.

              Hmm. Well, yes. Must admit’ when I saw PG had posted it, & it was popping up in the Recent Comments list as the ONLY THING ALL IN BIG RED CAPS, I thought : “Christ! Wish I hadn’t done that now. Looks like I’m shouting at them.”

            • Kitty Catkin

               /  July 14, 2018

              Not all or even most Christians are rabid fundies any more than most members of any religion are,

            • Gezza

               /  July 14, 2018

              They don’t have to be rabid fundies to freak out & cut you off. Just run of the mill Christians.

  6. PartisanZ

     /  July 14, 2018

    It’s the mystery and oneness of life we humans have named God …

    A mystery, unknown and unknowable, can at best only be vaguely described or alluded to by our thought and language … The ‘oneness’, it would appear, can be experienced …

    Personally I believe Jesus of Nazareth experienced it.

    Long before him, animist religions maintained tribal identities …

    Later, the cunning found out that the ignorant would worship the God(s) they created and thus developed power structures which are essentially political … Churches … ‘Religions’ …

    The mystery, however, remains … and the oneness is there, just beyond the veil of our senses five … beyond understanding … “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” … but not beyond potentially experiencing …

    • Gezza

       /  July 14, 2018

      Mystical & vaguely-defined “spiritual” experiences are commonplace. I’ve experienced such states during my life. I still get body/mind experiences I can describe as wairua, or spirituality out in the bush alone, or near natural bodies of water. In the bush alone, if I allow myself to just breathe in & imagine it, I can feel something like a life force all around me. If I want to. I’ve had similar experiences on drugs. During or immediately after great sex. Once in a psychotic episode. When in deep meditation. Caught up (once) in Christian group hysteria. The human mind can just conjure up the state, & one can be be told what it is, or can just notice that it can be done – if one chooses to experience it. There are scientific explanations for some.

      Whether life needs an animating force to continue existing is another interesting debate for some. It just seems to be a logical requirement for animate organisms to some people. But it doesn’t need to be present.The chemical, electrical & physical reactions & processes associated with the gestation, growth & development & ultimate death of tired old living cells do a perfectly adequate job.

      Abiogenensis as far as I know is still not sorted. What prompted that first self-replicating cell to divide & reproduce. We know to a high degree of certainty now how everything else animate evolved from that.

    • PartisanZ

       /  July 14, 2018

      I get the feeling that asking the human race to give up religion or seeking the spiritual is a bit like asking us to give up eating …

      Ask instead the human race to eat better food …

      • And to worship better religion.

      • Gezza

         /  July 14, 2018

        Re first sentence, you’re probably right. New Age gurus & Messiahs can still recruit from even among educated skeptics those desperate for simple or complex answers to the things they can’t understand. Some people don’t seem able to live with “I don’t know the answer to that, but it doesn’t really matter.”

        I’m curious. I’ve been happy to suspend belief & try all sorts of things & concepts out for myself in my lifetime before adding them to my list of things that just aren’t true, without experiencing a sense consequent of disappointment & desperate need to find another answer that is. Being a skeptic is a good thing in my view, as long as you’re prepared to test things you can’t automatically discount from experience. But I agree with Griff. Solid evidence is the best basis for belief.

        • PartisanZ

           /  July 14, 2018

          Solid evidence of the mystery of life is a non sequitur …

          You’ll be endlessly trapped in a material search for the immaterial … the intangible …

          • Gezza

             /  July 14, 2018

            1. I’m not trapped in a material search for anything. I look when I want to.
            2. The immaterial is … immaterial.
            3. The mystery of life is “I just don’t know” in poetic form. Which appeals to me, I’ll add.

          • Gezza

             /  July 14, 2018

            And just to clarify, PZ, I’m using “solid” above in the dictionary sense of:
            4. dependable; reliable.
            “the defence is solid”
            synonyms: well founded, well grounded, valid, sound, reasonable, logical, weighty, authoritative, convincing, cogent, plausible, credible, reliable
            “a solid argument”

          • Griff

             /  July 14, 2018

            Explaining Mystery is why we invented science.
            Religion stops us asking why it just says goddidit.
            It is not the answer that counts it is asking the right questions.
            The more we know the more we know what we dont know.

            “Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life.”
            Immanuel Kant

            42

  7. Maggy Wassilieff

     /  July 14, 2018

    What I have found interesting is that folks in communist countries who were free of religious shackles for decades leapt back into their churches’/ mosques’ arms as soon as they could.

    • Alan Wilkinson

       /  July 14, 2018

      Yes, it is peculiar – unless perhaps you consider their government.

    • Corky

       /  July 14, 2018

      Yes, skeptics believe it’s because people like to be lead by a benign parental force. Others believe they are cut off from some intangible being, and faith reconnects them.

    • Gezza

       /  July 14, 2018

      Yep. And I’ll bet they still haven’t just opened & read their Bible from start to finish & thought about it. I’ll also bet most were taught to be Christians & remained as Christians under the radar througout the rule of the Communists, as has happened at various times & places throughout Christianity’s history. Some of our Catholic saints were martyrs for their faith who for whatever reason popped their heads up above the parapet at the wrong time & in the wrong place. Putin’s a Christian. It’s an eminently exploitable faith.

      Many people have or develop a need or yearning to believe in a higher power at various points in their life & being a Christian in a parish is to also be part of a social & cultural club.

      In most cases it’s harmless to hold silly beliefs. It’s when it’s not harmless that the problems with believing patent absurdities arise. When one allows one’s whole life & behaviour to be unquestioningly governed by the diktats of any authoritarian dictatorship or regime, be it political or religious, one can be manipulated by them far more easily.

      I often wonder how many devout preachers are really non-believers, but just see their role as a comfortable living. Or who start out as believers & somewhere along the way they wake up – but now they’re trapped. Their wives, their parents, their friends – they haven’t & they’ll reject them. It’s easier just to carry on with the pretence. At least it’s harmless, right?

      • Griff

         /  July 14, 2018

        I call, I cling, I want… and there is no One to answer… no One on Whom I can cling… no, No One. Alone… Where is my Faith… even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness and darkness… My God… how painful is this unknown pain… I have no Faith… I dare not utter the words and thoughts that crowd in my heart… and make me suffer untold agony. So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them … because of the blasphemy.

        Mother Teresa
        https://www.theatheistcodex.com/codex/positions/priests-ministers-atheists/

  8. Gezza

     /  July 14, 2018

    I know what it means. I looked it up. The above was just for c.

    • Gezza

       /  July 14, 2018

      (Sorry. Above went in wrong place. Random occurrence of the WordPress Wilkinson Effect I reckon.)

  9. David

     /  July 15, 2018

    “Humanity MUST outgrow these mythical supernatural rulers if we are ever to evolve the kind of world we really want.”

    Can I ask what evidence you have that this is the outcome that really occurs when religion is removed form the human condition? It just looks like a lot of believe and not actual underlying evidence to me.

    Can I also ask how you know exactly what kind of world ‘we’ really want?

    This whole thing comes across as just as much a fairy tale as the ‘troll stories’ you rail against. This is clearly your…church.

    • Gezza

       /  July 15, 2018

      Can I ask what evidence you have that this is the outcome that really occurs when religion is removed form the human condition? It just looks like a lot of believe and not actual underlying evidence to me.

      Sure. You just did.

      Can I also ask how you know exactly what kind of world ‘we’ really want?

      Sure. I want a world where, whatever the prevailing, social, legal, and economic system is, nobody believes things that are false (like how and when the universe and humans were created), & that they are superior in any way to others, or should rule over others, because their bs-ridden Holy Book tells them that. And where, unless they are mentally untreatable psychopaths, people treat each other with love and respect and don’t want to harm anyone.

      What kind of world do you want?

      This whole thing comes across as just as much a fairy tale as the ‘troll stories’ you rail against. This is clearly your…church.

      I don’t have a church. Do you? And which is it?

      • Gezza

         /  July 15, 2018

        Pink David?
        Been a couple of hours at least.
        What are you frightened of?